WAW Hired a Divorce Coach (Cont6.)

[ScottB]

Lots of helpful stuff here.

My first issue is how I let her get to me. I'll have to manage that and I can. I can't let her see me get upset.

Second, I am waking up to how she has manipulated and controlled me in the past, and the truth is it has made me angry. I reflected on this a lot in Florida and so when she began in on me it hit a nerve at the wrong time and I struggled to keep my cool when she stopped by. If she hadn't stopped by, I was doing a good job managing it.

Steve85 - My son and I are very close and he is not close at all with his mother - I did not expect him to tell her. I wanted my son to know where I was. When I came back with a tan, I didn't want him to think I was hiding this from him. I was confident he would not tell my STBXW and at the same time I wasn't hiding that I was going away, I just wasn't announcing it.

And I didn't physically chase her, I continued to speak from my porch as she ran away. I should not have done that, but that's now water over the dam, hopefully I can learn for the next time.

And I think she is making this false accusation because she believes it. Her thinking is clouded because she wants to believe it. That's how she changes and bends the truth, I've seen this before. The document is clear and as I mentioned I had an attorney re-review it for me last night to make sure I was correct.

Now she's in my head again. I was debating going back to Florida next week but now I have this on mind.

[SteveLW]

Scott, I am getting the sense of rationalization and "reasoning". IE, excuse making. "I am close to my son." "I shouted from the porch." Etc. Just something to watch. Remember, you are trying to become the best Scott you can be. If you were a right-fighter in your marriage that is something you will want to change for your next R. Right-fighters are miserable in life because they'd rather be right than happy.

And do not stick your head in the sand related to where this D is going. She is already showing signs of escalation. Having A lawyer look at something is not the same as having YOUR lawyer look at something. One is a friend, doing a favor. The other is a paid resource that will be honest, forthright, and upfront with you. I stand by what I said, you better hire an attorney.

If the agreement has no prohibition on travel, then why would you not go back? Read CW's post above about what standing for yourself looks like.

Scott, work on detaching from this woman. Get back to where you were a few posts ago. She is being difficult. You have a long-road ahead of you of her being difficult. If you let it affect you emotionally then you will continue to struggle.

Finally, keep all interaction with her to email. Like I said, she is already ahead of you on this front.

[Ready2Change]

From my personal notes:

Communication
Figure out what kind of person I am currently dealing with. Respond to each type completely different:
1) Wise people listen, so talking to them works.
2) When dealing with foolish people, stop talking and set limits and consequences.
3) If the person is behaving evil, let lawyers and law enforcement deal with them.

Remember, 55% of the message is conveyed visually through body language and facial expressions, 38% is expressed vocally by my tempo, tone and inflections and only 7% verbally through my words. Before speaking, assure all 3V’s are congruent to avoid confusing the listener.

Lets assume she is acting foolish for now. If boundaries don't work, then you move to #3.

After I said I went to Florida she sent me an email asking why I “violated” our agreement not to travel. I said that I didn’t And asked her to read the agreement our mediator put together.

Do not be direct. Be indirect as someone else pointed out. H:"Which clause of our agreement do you believe I violated?"

Then she comes over to drop something off for our daughter. I let her greet the kids and then Waited outside.

Did you agree for her to come over? Might be another place for a boundary. Right now, do you think it is good for her to come around during your parenting time?

When you....
I feel....
If you....
I will....

Once the kids were gone I said we should talk about the travel. She said nope. I said if you read the agreement... and she started running to her car. I told her that I was no longer going to accept the way she treats me as she slammed her door and drove off.

Do not chase a cat.(IE don't instigate any conversations with her. If she brings something up, listen and validate....right now is the time to STFU and listen.

Then she got home and sent me four emails.

You are blessed! I wish my X would split emails into individual topics. Email should be your primary communication with her. It gives you time to clarify all your thoughts. Run any past us if you want.

One saying she read our agreement and that I was wrong, that we had committed not to travel. (This was not true and immediately sent it to an attorney friend of mine to confirm I wasn’t crazy - she read it and confirmed my thinking).

I reviewed MY divorce agreement. On page 11, in section 8.f it states "If either of us travels with our children for an extended period of time, he or she shall give the other the location and telephone number where the children may be reached in the event of an emergency".

"Travel with the children" is the important clause. "Extend period" is vague and and if Either of us had an issues I would negotiate concrete values.

Wife does this work for you?-->
"If either of us travels with our children outside of the state for more than 5 days, he or she shall give (before the children leave) the other the location and telephone number where the children may be reached in the event of an emergency". If not, do you want more or less days?

She sent me another email about kids sports (which I had already sent her the schedule for earlier in the day).

H:"Thanks"

Another one telling me to call my neighbor because he owes my son money for chores.

Either set boundary (if you dont' want her "Telling you to do this that or the other" ..Or "I will take care of it"


And another saying she signed up for some family software to manage our calendar, which had been written into our “agreement”.[/quote]
"Perfect!"

She used to do this all the time, she would say I agreed to something that I never agreed to and then claim I was changing the truth; this time it’s literally in writing and she STILL claims I’m changing the story. It’s crazy. I remember clearly going over our arrangement with the mediator and the mediator telling her she couldn’t control me and that I could make my own decisions.

YUP...gaslighting.

But at some point, I can’t stand by and allow this behavior to continue. I’m getting divorced and I can’t let her beat on me anymore. That’s got to end.

"Sorry you feel that way" goes along way.

[ScottB]

Two weeks ago our mediator sent us a different set of documents that my STBXW and I were supposed to review ahead of our next mediation session which is next Wednesday. I emailed her today to ask how she wanted to review them and make decisions.

Based on everything above I should probably push to do this over email but its a bunch of decisions that need to be negotiated. Vacation, holidays, times for different things. Anyhow, I finally broke down to ask her when she wanted to go over it because she doesn't do anything. She just sits on this stuff and lets it go (which is eventually going to cost us money).

[AnotherStander]

Scott, I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here regarding the travel. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so these are extraordinary times. I am 59 and I've never lived through anything like this in the past. Personally I think it is foolish to travel unnecessarily right now. Anyone that does so is putting themselves AND those close to them at risk. I've known quite a few people that have gotten Covid, and their illnesses have ranged from "wow I was really tired" to "I lost my sense of taste and smell for a month" to "I was on a ventilator and they thought I was going to die" to actual death. All were people with no preexisting health conditions. There is absolutely no predicting how it's going to effect a given person. When you travel you are exposing yourself, and you can EASILY transmit it to others before even showing symptoms. So in my opinion, your W has every right to be angry about it. Because your choice to travel has put you, her and your children ALL at risk.

I think people who are suggesting to you that you did the right thing, and that you should go back again are losing sight of a very basic DBing tenet and that is this- DON'T ROCK THE BOAT. Right now your W is just looking for reasons to dislike you more than she already does. So you ALWAYS take the high road. You ALWAYS act with dignity and respect, even when you are being disrespected.

Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.

[SteveLW]

Two weeks ago our mediator sent us a different set of documents that my STBXW and I were supposed to review ahead of our next mediation session which is next Wednesday. I emailed her today to ask how she wanted to review them and make decisions.

Based on everything above I should probably push to do this over email but its a bunch of decisions that need to be negotiated. Vacation, holidays, times for different things. Anyhow, I finally broke down to ask her when she wanted to go over it because she doesn't do anything. She just sits on this stuff and lets it go (which is eventually going to cost us money).

Get a lawyer. I know you are in denial about this, but it is about to turn ugly.

[ScottB]

Steve - I’ve got an attorney. I’m ready for this to break down.

[Ready2Change]

Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.

I am not disagreeing with AS, but I do not know the details of your trip to FL. Were you out clubbing with out face mask, making out with multiple ladies that were constantly coughing? Or did you spend the whole time walking on an isolated beach alone? Did you fly? Did you drive?

Bottom line, we all have different risk tolerances. Ho risky were you? If you were risky, get a test. If you were not risky, get a test anyways. All the drama goes away.

H:"I tested negative"

or

H:"I tested positive. I am in quarantine. Do you want to watch the kids during my parenting time or do I need to make arrangements with my parents?"

[ScottB]

I wasn't risky. I played golf with my parents, stayed at their house, went to the beach once, my dad and I went to an outdoor bar once, and we did go to dinner at an outdoor restaurant. The riskiest thing I did was to fly. I don't feel sick and I'm not getting tested.

I did think AS idea for a 180 was brilliant, and if we were in a different place I would do it, but I think I'm done with that. I am thinking about the last several years of interactions. I tried everything under the sun. Bottom line is she never made any attempt to change. She was unhappy and believes I'm the reason. She believes I was controlling, manipulative, gaslighting, abusive, and a narcissist. She didn't work and did less and less around the house while I picked up more responsibilities. She would claim she did "everything around here" as she continued to help out less and do less.

I might be past some of the DB-ing ideas. Whether or not she changes her mind in any fashion is up to her. I agree with AS that I may want to consider "not rocking the boat," but at the same time I'm kind of interested in moving on.

Her affair started in 2015. And before that, in 2014 I remember thinking that the only way I felt love from her was because she would make love to me. Otherwise she was mean.

I was in love with the memory of her from 2000 when we met until about 2012 when she began to change into a different person than the one I had known. I held on to that memory for a very very long time and hoped she would become the woman I loved again, but that woman is gone. Every once in a while I would see that woman again, just a glimpse. I could see her in her eyes or her smile, but that woman is not coming back. I need to mourn that loss and move on.

I also held tightly onto this for the kids. When it started my daughter was 4. Through all I did I was able to earn 5 more years of seeing my daughter every day. My son was 7, I did the same for him.

She refused to change, she had the affair, she pushed the separation and divorce, she can have it.

I now need to learn to respect myself again, stand up for myself again, and get stronger, without getting aggressive. That's my challenge. I need to get back to who I was when I was fun loving, knew my self-worth, and could determine my Own path.

I liked your idea AS, but that moment has passed.

I did sign up for the vaccine - I would love to see that come through.

[DonH]

Here is how I suggest you handle this- tell your W "I've really thought about what you said, and I realize now that you are right, I was unnecessarily putting the kids at risk and possibly you by making that trip. I've decided that for everyone's safety, I will not be traveling again until this pandemic is under control." Now I realize how hard it is to say something like that, because you are admitting you were wrong. But that is the biggest 180 a lot of us can make, and perhaps one of the most effective.

WORST ADVICE EVER!!!!!!!!! After nearly a year of this craziness now we should suggest we listen to WAW/WW and their crazy beliefs. This is YOUR belief AS it is not law or even suggested by all - certainly by some but not by all. Everyone has to be somewhere and that includes Scott. He can just as easily contract covid at home by doing risky behavior. He doesn’t need to travel to get it. Just because after 10 months of restrictions he decided to take a trip does not mean he is wrong nor owes his W ANYTHING. She’s just looking for something, anything to make a big deal about. So what’s next, apologize for not wearing a mask someplace? Apologize for giving a causal acquaintance a hug? Because he went to a bar or restaurant? How does it matter WHERE he did these things? Many people have returned to travel. Many have returned to flying. Precautions are taken but certainly there is still risk. Well newsflash, there is some risk in EVERYTHING we do. There will be 20,000 people at the Super Bowel in 10 days. If he was lucky enough to score tickets should he not attend anymore?

Scott’s W lost the right to tell him what to do when she fired him as her husband. She can’t have it both ways and to let her think she does is cake eating. If she decides it’s too risky to be around him for 7 days this is HER CHOICE. She can stay away. I’d even go so far as to keep the kids away for a period. But to restrict Scott’s life is wrong. Let me add I know people who wore their masks more than Batman did. They washed their hands until they were raw. They rarely went anywhere and took huge safety steps when they did. Hey they later tell me, “I don’t know how I caught covid, I did everything right.” Yep, that’s why it’s called contagious. It spreads despite out best efforts.

Everyone wants to have others handle covid, and much of life, like they do. It’s not our call. It’s up to people to live their lives within the laws we have. His wife (and you) can chose to lock yourself in your house for a year if you feel that is best for you. You can also chose not to sky dive or carry a gun or eat red meet if you feel that’s best for you. But to tell others they too should not sky dive, carry a gun or eat fatty foods is just wrong. To allow a STBX to dictate any of this or need to apologize for having done it is just really, really bad advice. Let me also say I tend to agree with much of the advice you provide. Just not this time.