Tired

[ovrrnbw]

I can barely stop myself from smothering and nicing her

The word "barely" is another way of saying that you accomplished your goal. You did it. Good job, it gets easier with repetition.

Definitely detach further. Don't let her actions dictate your mood. Have the superior attitude that drives your words and deeds.

As a detached man, I can tell you your kid going overseas for a month in the middle of this situation wouldn't fly with me. I understand her needing time and space, but if he goes prepare to never see him again.

Sandi wrote earlier that my WW is conveniently enjoying both the affair and the comfort and security of home. This is very objective and correct view on the sitch and I believe it is my mistake for enabling it for so long. I think my lesson here is not to be so passive going forward and confront her immediately if any such disrespect occurs.

Well her home is her home, and yours too, she should be comfortable there. The comfort and security of home that Sandi refers to is her R with you. She is picking and choosing. People will treat you as bad as you allow them to, so figure out what you won't deal with and go from there. No heavy confrontation, make it known and then follow through. Or better yet let your actions speak for you. LBS's are always so keen on their words, but, like life, it is our deeds that matter most.

Answer to questions 1, 2, and 3 are all no because you'll look weak and you have no control over it.

Other than GAL and not pursuing should I be doing anything else?

GAL should be pretty consuming. Whether it's fun, social, work, reading, personal growth - this should be your focus. You should be enjoying your time on this planet, it is quite limited.

[SteveLW]

I have a few questions below and will appreciate any advice.


1. Should I call OM and tell him to never contact her again for any reason whatsoever? I have a feeling that this might not be the most productive conversation but still.

This is for her to do, not you. This is you trying to control the situation, a situation you have no control over. I've never seen a situation where a LBS called the OP and told them to stay away, and the OP went "Oh, okay!" Either your W is going to recommit back to the MR and tell OM it is over, or she isn't. That is up to her and you trying to do that isn't going to make a hill of beans.

2. Should I ask her to block him on all possible SM and other means of communication and delete all the photos that she has of them together?

Again, this has to e her idea, not yours. Even if she agrees to do this, if she isn't ready it will be half-hearted, cause resentment, and make her feel controlled, something she will want to rebel against. Every time you take an action like this it will most likely backfire. So you have to back off and realize that if she is really ending it with OM then that is up to her, and you have no control over it.

3. Should I set a boundary if she ever contacts him or vice versa (and she replies) she will have to leave the house immediately? As in the previous advice, I am not going to tell her that boundary but rather act if there is any contact between them.

This is a good boundary IF you are willing to follow through. One small tweak, it is only if she contacts him or engages him. She cannot help if he contacts her. You need to try not to fixate so much on OM. He isn't the problem, your WW is. If it wasn't him it would be some other man. So stop putting so much focus on him. Remember to, that likely legally shed doesn't have to leave. So you can ask her to leave but you cannot make her.

I know my WW pretty well and I know that she has a very weak willpower and either she will contact OM first or he will reach out to her. I am afraid in a few days when the stress wears off and she gets bored with the house chores she might get depressed and hopeless and reach out to her "special drug" for relieve and some more fantasy pills. And then we find ourselves in the same cycle. Other than GAL and not pursuing should I be doing anything else?

This isn't your WW, this is all WWs! Either she is really recommitting to the MR or she is not. You cannot control that. Focus on what you can control: YOU!

[Traveler]

She wants to take S6 and go stay with her parents in another country for one month to clear her mind. This is possible due to the online schooling that S6 has; she will be paying for her trip expenses while I will be covering S6's costs. I think that will be very beneficial for her mental health to do that, however I will not be happy not seeing my child for a month.

Strategically, one of the first things I did when splitting with my ex-wife, was put a restraining order on her leaving the country with the kids. What if she never returned them? If this were even another state, a month without you would look bad, because it's good start to establishing a status quo of mom being the primary parent.

Emotionally, is your S6 okay with not seeing you for a month?! Has this happened before? Granted, there are naval families, but at that age, courts often rule even weekly custody changes are too hard on the children.

Anyway, I wouldn't agree to this, but think through your situation and how much you still trust this woman?

[Traveler]

To be clear, I'd be absolutely okay with HER leaving for 1 month or whatever she needs. The "no" would be to taking the children, and I wouldn't argue about it I would (and did) simply stop it.

[sandi2]

I married young to the sweetest guy on earth. I had never heard of NGS, but I quickly learned the hard way that my H was a poster boy for Mr. Nice Guy. I'll spare you the history, b/c it's quite long. I'll just tell you that his NGS killed the attraction I felt for him, b/c a wife's loving feelings are based on the level of respect she feels for her H. With that said, a LBH who has a WW needs to view his actions based on the respect factor. It doesn't matter if she cries, throws a fit, threatens, or whatever. What matters is that she learns to respect you as a man. Listen carefully. She has to respect you as a man, before she can respect you as her H. That's the starting line back to a promising healthy relationship.

She may not like you whatsoever, initially, but that's okay. Your goal is not trying to be likeable. Your goal is not to get on the good side of your WW. Your goal is to command respect under you own roof, and in all of your relationships. The problem nice guys seem to have, is not knowing exactly how to conduct themselves in order to get this respect from others. They jump from one end of the spectrum to the total opposite, and act more like a jerk than a self respecting man who has standards/principals. So, I'll warn you in advance, if you choose to accept this challenge......gear up for the unpleasant side of a wayward wife. The cheating is a symptom of her disrespect for you and your relationship together. You need to get that in your head. Prepare for the worst, and if you occasionally have moments of peace and some level of niceness from her......enjoy the moment, but don't think for a minute she has "changed". It takes time and consistent strength on behalf of the LBH, before her respect begins to return. Unfortunately, most WW's are very cunning, and most LBH's have trouble staying balanced and not fall for the tricks his WW pulls out of her bag. I encourage you to use this board daily as a source to stay balanced and on target.

We had a few talks in the days before her departure and I actually told her that I know where she is going and what she will be doing but did not tell her explicitly to go or not.

Okay, so now she knows that YOU know she's cheating. Two things usually happen. She will take her contacting OM deeper uncover, or she'll expect you to simply comply. I think this could have been the time to state your boundary......but only if you were going to back up your word. Rather than tell her what to do or don't do, you could have said something like, "I will not be in a MR with three people". You see, she has the freedom of making of the choice, and any action taken is left up to you. That's the difference in ultimatums and boundaries. Like someone else has said, don't state a boundary if you are fully prepared to back it up. If you won't tolerate cheating, then be prepared to dissolve the relationship immediately. IMHO, it is important to enforce boundaries immediately, based on the mindset of a WW. She has no appreciation for your patience, kindness, love, etc. When she ends her affair, these normal feelings will probably return, but currently, you must remember she thinks differently.

Her intentions were that she wanted to go but had an emotional breakdown in the last moment, turned around and came home. She also told OM that she doesn't love him and then they proceeded to block each other's numbers and what not.

This, I suppose, is what she told you. If it's true, I dare say it is her experiencing more confusion. I remember those days I experienced, where I would change my mind at least three times a day. She is not grounded emotionally, and unfortunately, she's basing everything on how she feels. I think she shared this information with you to hold you at bay.

In the last couple of days there is more peace at home, however I know that most likely this is not the end of the story. While she told her best friend that she is ashamed of her actions and the pain and destruction she is causing, she never told me any of that. She has not recommited to our relationship and stated that most likely we will need to live separately to see where our relationship goes.

Is her best friend confiding in you, telling you what her best friend said in confidence? I tell LBH's of WW's not to communicate with BFF's of WW. You can't trust them, b/c if she would tell you what your W said, don't you think she'll relay what you say to your W? She's your WW's friend......not yours. Another thing is sometime a WW will use the best friend to send certain messages to the LBH. That's not the way to handle things properly and effectively.

There is something about the WW not wanting to recommit to the MR that's difficult for me to explain. However, I believe it is most necessary, b/c there has to be guidelines in how to proceed. Otherwise, she's going to continue bouncing back& forth, depending where her emotions send her. That's not acceptable. She either commits to being your faithful W, or not. The problem we see in WW's is how they want to keep their options open. They don't want to obligate themselves to a relationship where they currently find no fulfillment. In other words, she's open to the possibility of finding something/someone else. As long as she believes the future of your relationship hangs onto her decision of what she wants.........this could go on indefinitely. It's like she knows you are patiently waiting on her to decide, instead of seeing a man who has other options and won't tolerate her cheating a$$ ways. You see, it's all about respect. Does she see a man who respects himself? Nobody knows any better than a wayward, what they really deserve from the one they've treated so badly. Therefore, don't think for a second that your kind, long-suffering will win point with her.

I am on the fence deciding how to treat her as on one side my NGS takes over and I can barely stop myself from smothering and nicing her;

I'm going to be very blunt. This makes absolutely no sense to a sane person. A WW will chew you up and spit you out b/c of her utter disgust. The more she disrespects you, the bigger your urge to smother her with niceness???? What is wrong with you? Your WW is not the only one with issues here. This is the most unhealthy response I've ever heard. Unfortunately, it's an honest response and I have heard it every since I've been a member of the board. What is it about this wayward person that pulls such a strong need to shower her with niceness? You really need to read the short book on No More Mr. Nice Guy, b/c you have a huge case of NGS. It's not normal to want to smother another person with more of your niceness when they don't even want to commit to a relationship with you.

So, let's talk about how you should treat her. First, you have to decide what is right & wrong for you, the man. Where is self respect on your scale of values? Yes, you'll definitely battle the NGS, and that's why you must get help in this area. It's available. There's written information on the Internet, books, youtube videos, even a forum just for NG's. Plus, the majority of LBHs on the boad are usually those with NGS. They too, have to struggle with it, but they learn what is healthy and what is not normal. I can grant you one thing, women despise passiveness in men! They see them as having no gonads. Women love gonads!!! She admires gonads on anyone, not just her H. She'd like to take his gonads from him and keep...........and that's just what she'll do to a nice-guy softie. I'll tell you something your W will probably never admit. Every W will test her H to see if he passively gives up his gonads, and if he does, her respect for him goes down the toilet. Why? B/c we women don't want emotional equality or strength with our H, we want him to be stronger than us. We are strong in our own right, and especially if we have no partner, but if we are in a relationship with a man.......we want someone with strength and capability to take charge. You might do well to bear that in mind.

on the other hand my mind tells me that that is not the best idea as she has not earned the respect and my love back.

Do you want to know why she isn't trying to earn your respect or love? It's b/c she knows she doesn't have to! You followed her around like a puppy dog when she's her worst, and you've left all the decisions up to her about the relationship. Where is your strength, man? Where is YOUR self respect? What would inspire a cheater to suddenly desire your love & respect for her? You have passively set on the side-lines waiting for her to make all the decisions about YOUR future. Sorry, but that is just not attractive in any man.

The big question is where do we go from here?! She wants to take S6 and go stay with her parents in another country for one month to clear her mind. This is possible due to the online schooling that S6 has; she will be paying for her trip expenses while I will be covering S6's costs. I think that will be very beneficial for her mental health to do that, however I will not be happy not seeing my child for a month.

Again, you are looking at what she wants. I'll admit there may be nothing you can do to prevent her leaving with your child, but my point here is for you to see how you bend & twist yourself to adapt to her wishes.

Sandi wrote earlier that my WW is conveniently enjoying both the affair and the comfort and security of home. This is very objective and correct view on the sitch and I believe it is my mistake for enabling it for so long.

The nature of the WW is extreme self-centeredness and selfishness. She's looking out for number one. There are varying degrees we see in the many stories here, but every WW has this to some degree. She's not led to do the right moral thing. She's led to do what's best for her feelings at any given moment, which is always changing. It is a big mistake to place faith in her doing the right thing for what's best for the family. I'm not saying she can't overcome her wayward mindset, but it hasn't happened yet. It takes her working very hard for a significant time to get through the process.

1. Should I call OM and tell him to never contact her again for any reason whatsoever? I have a feeling that this might not be the most productive conversation but still.

I've seen former LBH's who claimed they scared off the OM. However, she's not really in love with him, and she'll just find another guy who will feed her egoistical fantasy. She's in love with a fantasy.

2. Should I ask her to block him on all possible SM and other means of communication and delete all the photos that she has of them together?

IMHO, it should not be something you ask of her, but rather a requirement to reconciling the relationship. That's the problem when she holds you at bay by not making a commitment one way or the other. It leaves you hanging. It's not acceptable, and one of your boundaries should include no tolerance for any secret agenda or attention toward this OM or any others in the future. I strongly believe the WW needs to follow and honor a transparency plan, where there are no secret agendas or communication with others. However, if she's not committed and is going to leave for a month to figure out what she wants.......you have no way of enforcing a transparency plan. We can discuss this more, if you wish.

3. Should I set a boundary if she ever contacts him or vice versa (and she replies) she will have to leave the house immediately? As in the previous advice, I am not going to tell her that boundary but rather act if there is any contact between them.

Well, at this point, you've kind of put yourself in a corner by not making it clear to her that you would not tolerate any future contact with OM. You'd think she should automatically know the boundaries in this relationship, but she has test it and got away with dishonoring it. Should such an occasion come up in a discussion before she leaves for a month, it might serve you to inform her you won't tolerate another dose of cheating. I'm not in favor of how some newbies go around crowing about their boundaries, b/c they are under the impression this will control the WW's actions. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, you can just bet she's going to test it out, just to see if you really mean what you say. So, don't say anything if you aren't ready to pull the plug. You must mean what you say.

I am afraid in a few days when the stress wears off and she gets bored with the house chores she might get depressed and hopeless and reach out to her "special drug" for relieve and some more fantasy pills. And then we find ourselves in the same cycle. Other than GAL and not pursuing should I be doing anything else?

I understand what you are saying. It's unsettling to realize she could turn back to OM at any second. You can't keep her busy enough, or entertained enough to forget about OM. She must take responsibility for herself and make right choices, instead of compromising. I know that must be a very scary thought for you. Frankly, I don't think she should be given an indefinite time to decide to commit or not. There is nothing fair about it, and of course, WW's don't think about fairness.......they only think about their what they want. At the moment, she can't make up her mind b/c she's been allowed to have both you and OM. See what I mean? When she loses some of those options, it helps make up her mind. I'm just telling you like it is.

I don't think LBH's understand what we mean when we say focus on you and not the WW. You need to get reacquainted with your own core values as a man. How are you going to raise your son to know how to be a man? Who is going to watch? What will his relationship with women be like? Will he follow his daddy's footsteps? When I see a LBH who waits and depends upon his W to shape his future happiness, I have a lot of questions about his mental/emotional health. You said it yourself, she has a strong influence over how you feel that day. To some extent, this is normal when we love that person, but the bottom line should be what/who we are as individuals. You've given her the power to determine your happiness or sadness. I think you need to be responsible for your own happiness. Find your self respect, and you'll find your personal power.

[dmrafa]

Thank you all for the great advice. So far I am doing my best to follow it, except I catch myself now and then straying from DBing.

Sandi, I really appreciate the time you have taken out of your day to write your reply and for the 2x4s - honest constructive criticism is much needed in my case! For the last two days I have been reading and re-reading your post so it can all sink in. I think this is the issue that I have long been unaware of. Up until BD almost two years ago I did not realize what a huuuuge case of NGS I have. I admit that throughout my life I have been trying to please those around me, even at my own expense some of the time. Back in the fall of last year I had a few IC sessions and in the middle of the very first session the therapist told me that I don't ever put myself first, but everybody else and that is very wrong and unhealthy. I have already started working on this problem, almost finished NMMNG and will keep reading all I can find and hopefully improve.

The latest in our situation is that she still wants to go abroad for a month to get herself together, however this will place a big burden on me and S6, between my job, his school and the need for an outside caretaker. I am leaning more towards not letting her go while the school year is still on, however I am trying to find the balance not to be too controlling.

Finally, a bit of off-topic, related to the other thread started by Sandi. I don't post often about my sitch for a number of reasons. Between early and late work, commuting plus helping home S6 with virtual learning I don't get too much peaceful time and leftover energy to sit down and craft a proper post. The second reason is that not much is happening on a day to day basis at home at this point and I wouldn't want to water down the thread with too many matters of no concern.

And yet, a big thank you to all that stopped by my sitch and offered advice and support. It means a lot to me.

[Traveler]

I don't ever put myself first, but everybody else and that is very wrong and unhealthy. I have already started working on this problem, almost finished NMMNG and will keep reading all I can find and hopefully improve.

I'd love to hear more as you find your balance between being self-compassionate and compassionate towards others. Balancing the two can be a struggle even for those without Nice Guy Syndrome. (:

I am leaning more towards not letting her go while the school year is still on, however I am trying to find the balance not to be too controlling.

Just as there's no "good" or "balanced" amount of being abusive, I don't believe there's a "good" or "balanced" amount of being controlling--with the exception of people you are responsible for such as your employees or kids. Do you disagree? I literally bristle at the phrase, "letting her go". I know how I, or many of my girlfriends, would react to a partner saying that--we'd immediately exit stage left. Of course, that doesn't absolve her from her responsibility to watch the kids or pay childcare costs on her 50% of their days. It's an interesting challenge for her to solve, if you're able to take a step back from the situation.

[sandi2]

Thanks for replying. I know you have your hands full.

The latest in our situation is that she still wants to go abroad for a month to get herself together, however this will place a big burden on me and S6, between my job, his school and the need for an outside caretaker. I am leaning more towards not letting her go while the school year is still on, however I am trying to find the balance not to be too controlling.

Unless you can legally prevent her taking S6 out of the country, how will you not let her go? I'm not being a smart mouth, but really would like to know. You're correct about finding balance so as not to appear controlling. IMHO, it would have to be in a way she doesn't feel you are trying to control her. I don't know how or if that's possible.

You might be able to get a free short phone conference with a lawyer, just to see if you can prevent her taking the child. IDK, it's just a thought. Six months in a six year old's schooling, is a long time.

[SteveLW]

I know a woman that has a son with a man she never married. He is not a US citizen, so it might be different, but he cannot take their son out of the country without her consent.

[Traveler]

I’m my case (USA), the restraining order barring taking the kids out-of-state and out-of-country cost less than $100 and a few hours reading books by Nolo Press. No arguing or fights were involved.