Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4

[SteveLW]

First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.) What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.

May I am not a huge fan of the "finding your b@lls" terminology either, though I think sometimes it does illustrate to a LBH that they are being weak and need to toughen up. However, may, the idea that for women attraction follows respect is a well-known psychological aspect of male-female relationships. sandi is a huge proponent of the LBH dealing with a WW commanding respect. And that includes making sure to use tough love, not treat your WW with kid-gloves.

So I think you have to look at each situation individually and adjust accordingly. In your sitch self-respect may have been the problem, but in SD's a lack of respect from a WW might have been the key. And in society that now tries to deny the biological differences between men and women, it can cause confusion when LBHs, like myself and SD, come here with our self-confidence completely shot by WWs that lost any shred of respect for us 2+ years ago.

I also do not think being strong with the WW (as sandi advocates) is antithetical to self-respect and self-compassion. You could argue that you cannot command respect from others (through boundaries and other means) without self-respect and self-compassion. But the fact that the majority of heterosexual women cannot be attracted to a man that they do not respect is a pretty well-known fact.

[wayfarer]

Yeah it's not weak to let things play out and see where the chips may fall. SD isn't in emotional crisis. He isn't losing his mind and just trying to survive. If he wants to risk his heart in the hopes that this might work out the way he wants it to so be it. They are separated. W is living her life. SD is living his. He loves his W. His W has no idea what she wants. The black and white concept of respect around here is what's gross. Not so much the machismo. Although being a Mexican American women who's under 40 I have A LOT of thoughts on that that a lot of guy vets around here wouldn't like very much. Also I was a WW in my first MR. And I am neither devoutly Christian nor am I proponent of gender roles. Unfortuately most women aren't. So as much as Sandi's rules are really good blanket rules. And as much as her advice is pretty decent blanket advice for LBHs it, and this is with as much respect as I can muster because she deserves it for all her time and attention put here, her advice isn't the be all end all. Straight women aren't a monolith. And the fantasy that is spread around here that being an alpha will gain you the respect and desire of women is just that a fantasy. A self possessed man isn't an alpha male. And no amount of alpha male posturing will save a marriage. It is simply a bandaid for men who've lost self confidence. It's the ego equivalent of steroids. - One last thought on that Men are from Mars Women are from Venus is 30 years old and has been and always will be refuted as gender roles and the thinking associated with them are sociological not psychological or anywhere near biological.

Respect is earned, not demanded. Respect isn't objective. It's subjective and I genuinely hate how people attack each other with "do you not respect yourself at all?" We as LBS aren't a monolith either. Some newbies are TERRIBLE at the concept of self preservation and willingly walk into the lion's den because maybe the lion won't attack this time. Other's are very good at self preservation and swim through DBing. And there are other's still who while they want to save themselves, their heart, detached or not is still very much tied to their spouse. So they are willing to take some ill advised chances. Are their choices always smart or at the very least are the odds in their favor? Nope. Not even close. But there has to be a better way than "find your b@lls" or "demand respect." And there is. How about "and how did that work out for you?" or "Ok I see what you're saying, but can I ask you something. How is this serving you? What are you gaining from this? I see what WW is getting. But I can't see what you get here other than hurt." Yes 2x4s are needed around here. And most definitely for some more than others, but everything doesn't need to be a 2x4 all the time. I seriously struggled staying here because when looking at how this board was even 5 years ago the tone was sooooo different.

That being said SD. I think you have your wits about you, although I do believe your love blinds you more often than not. Also just a reminder this journey is your own. Take what works leave what doesn't that's in your welcome post. Don't ever forget that. Next I haven't read through your whole sitch yet. But I can see that you are still very much in love with your W. That as removed from her chaos as you may think you are, you are not removed from her. I commend that you want to try and be open to her, and possibilities. I commend your desire to be a light house. I just hope you are being a light house and carefully watching your own shores. WSs will drag you along and keep you at arms length as long as they are allowed to. You are going to have to ask yourself at some point here how long arms length is good enough. How long will arms length serve you? SteveLW put a date on his. I put a date on mine. It's an arbitrary date. It can be moved forward or backwards as you see fit, but at the very least it's a date set to reassess. Steve set his as a year. I set mine as a year. H had a year to figure out what he wanted by then or I was going to figure it out for him. You deserve a life where you aren't perpetually waiting on a person who isn't sure about you. You deserve to find the happiness she's looking for out there. And while I know right now it feels like that happiness would be with her in your old life, you have to realize that MR is dead and gone and never to return. If, and that's a big if, if you and W reconcile and move forward you have to accept that that marriage is a whole new marriage. There is no going back only going forward. Have you sat down and really thought about what your needs are should that opportunity arise. Also I did see a while back someone asked you what you're goals were for yourself? Have you come up with some concrete ones yet? Have you taken the time to look at your life looking forward both with and without W in it? Finances? Custody? Placement? Also I recommend re-reading what Another Stander posted to you a while ago. You can't nice them back, and you can't mean them back either. You need to take a good look around your life and start making plans, even if you don't ever use them. You need to know what both roads look like for you. Because your W has been looking at both for some time now.

[SteveLW]

Wayfarer, I hope you understand that I agree with much of what you said. I've never been a "demand respect" guy, I am more of a "command respect" guy. The person that has to verbally "demand" respect probably isn't worthy of respect. A person that conducts themselves in ways that engender respect do not have to demand respect.

However, male and female attraction is very different. Men can look past most personality and psychological issues a woman may have as long as he finds her looks attractive. Women tend to be much deeper than men when it comes to deep attraction and connection. It is less about gender roles and more about the biological impulses that control us.

One other question. I came to the board in Feb 2018, about 2 months into my sitch. And I immediately got tattoo'd with 2x4s by the vets here. And rightfully so! I keep seeing people refer to the "tone" of the board, but this change in tone certainly must of predated my arrival because I got flat beat up for my first few weeks here.

SD, that last paragraph from Wayfarer is gold. Please read it carefully. And as she suggests go back and reread AS's post. And remember, you do not get to control what she decides, but you do get to control how you react to her decision. Find that place where you are living your best life, a life only a fool wouldn't want to be a part of it, and let the chips fall where they may.

[SaltyDog]

May22 - thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response.

First off, I have always had a visceral, negative reaction to all the alpha/respect talk on the board re LBHs. I just don't buy any of this finding your b@lls/ commanding respect cr@p. (Sorry, guys, I think that is just gross.) What I do think is critical is SELF-respect, and as I've followed along I feel like Salty is doing a lot of the necessary work to cultivate true self-compassion and self-respect. When you truly respect yourself, you don't need to trumpet it from the rooftops, or tell your W to GTFO, or anything else. You respect and love yourself, and no one can take that from you. That is what matters.

I agree with you and you did a better job explaining it than I did. And it isn't that I disagree with some of the sentiment of boundaries or being strong enough to stand up for what you need/want. That is 100% something I need to do and am working on doing. I'm just also finding out a lot about myself as I go through this process and am growing as a result. As I mentioned to LH before, had I followed his advice back in the beginning and it worked, yes we might be together right now but it wouldn't last because I'd still be the person who thought he was the victim and we'd go back to our old ways. I wouldn't have hit bottom and seen things clearly. I wouldn't have gone from doing things in hopes of getting her back to doing things to become a better person. Did she have a role in the problems of our marriage? Absolutely. Did I have my head up my ass thinking all those problems were her fault and I was the one busting his ass all the time? Yup. She begged me for connection and support and I couldn't do it. I was so closed off emotionally, nobody could get in. What would've taken "balls" at that time would have been to open up, risk getting hurt, and to stop thinking I was being tough and by doing everything and soldiering on day after day. Had I not gone through all of this, I wouldn't have ever realized that. It's like an addict hitting bottom and all the lies and bullsh!t go away and you suddenly see things clearly.

I agree with this:

You can earn respect by admitting to past mistakes and showing a willingness to make improvements. You can make an effort to be true to yourself and find that self-respect and confidence that you lost somewhere along the way. You can show that you're willing to show up.

Whether that's practiced with your kids, your W, your parents, your colleagues, your friends, or just really focusing on understanding your own values and aligning your actions with them-- to me, that is key. It doesn't mean you are trying to nice her back. It just means you are willing to listen, to change, and have a growth mindset. For YOU, not for her.

Exactly. In the first few months after BD, it was all about her and "look at me and all the changes I'm making" and then I pulled back, almost out of spite, and somewhere along the way some of the stuff I was reading started breaking through. It probably started with The Four Agreements, followed with a lot of Stoic stuff, and really was blown apart with Untethered Soul. Just the idea of getting out of your head, your thoughts aren't you, be present, stop assuming, and you can only control yourself. Things still hurt, but how I deal with that hurt is fundamentally different than how I used to.

What regrets do you want to avoid at all costs?

I want to avoid her pulling the plug saying "I told you exactly what I needed and you wouldn't do it." because I chose to ignore what she said she needed and instead did the opposite.

What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?

And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.

I believe you *will* know when you're ready to move on.

I believe that as well.

Work on getting to a place where you are no longer tied to her emotions and actions.

This has been my focus over the past month or so. While our time together has increased, I have also worked hard to make sure our time apart is about me and/or me and the kids. In the past, all I could think about 24/7 was her, us, and our situation. It was exhausting. Now I still think about all that, but it is more in waves than constant. It is almost as if I will think "wow, haven't really thought about us for a bit" which unfortunately tends to dovetail into thinking about us, but at least there is now that space.

Honestly, I think you're doing really well. Hang in there.

Thank you!

[LH19]

What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?

And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.

So SD I guess I don't understand. This is not something you can control now but can in the future? Can you elaborate?

[SaltyDog]

What things are you willing to compromise on today in order to ensure you walk through your journey being true to your own values?

And that is the dating sites. I know I am not OK with that but I am willing to tolerate it for now. That has an expiration date, but for now it is something I cannot control so I can't waste time or energy dwelling on it. Easier said than done obviously.

So SD I guess I don't understand. This is not something you can control now but can in the future? Can you elaborate?

I can't "control" it now or in the future, but I do know there will come a time where I won't be able to tolerate it anymore and at that time I can make the choice to tap out and say I'm done.

[LH19]

Got it thank you! Do you have a timeframe in mind? I would not wait until Covid is over because the dating sites are going to be jumping. The summer of love all over again.

[wayfarer]

Steve I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are one of very few men who give self possessed man advice that explains the nuances between being a d!ck and being self possessed. The line between self respect and trying to mean them back as Another Stander put it. But there is a huge gap in practice vs theory here that I see male vets dumping on to LBH newbies with the anticipation that they can just find that sweet spot with out swinging wildly. Even though you can see they are clearly not in control of their emotions much less their countenance around their wives. Which is why I say it a bandaid. Most LBH's since I've been here take a long time to figure out the path that lies between door mat and a-hole. And as a former WW in my first MR and as a LBW in my second MR now in piecing, demanding or commanding respect from me or women like me will get you no where fast. My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff.

As far as allowing disrespect any one who is here is being disrespected. This concept of commanding or demanding respect is silly. Nothing you say or do will make a WAS/WS respect you more or less. WAS/WSs already have their minds made up. Drawing lines in the sand won't effect much either way. The only thing any of us has control over, man or woman, is building up all that the WAS/WS has torn down. This book called Difficult Conversations talks about one of the biggest things people have to overcome in conflict is having their identity and beliefs pulled out from under them because everything they believed to be true is now wrong. When we're BD'd our issue isn't that we've let the WAS/WSs walk all over us. Its that everything we thought to be true about ourselves and our lives isn't. That creates an identity crisis and crushes our sense of self, purpose, life, and because of that absolutely destroys every bit of confidence we've had. The kind of self possessed man you are talking about isn't one who commands respect by sheer will. It's man who's rebuilt himself who will survive this with or without his W. The place that converges with DB is we all need to find that person. That survivor within us. An alpha isn't what's attractive. A person who is no longer a victim to circumstance is.

As to the tone, if you dig into the archives or some of the like Wise DBers stuff about 5-6 years ago or even further back you can see 2x4s weren't as they are now. It was honest, and clear without the brutality that seems to be the go to with a lot of advice givers on here now. It was a lot more of "bro, she's dangling the carrot not you. I know you think it's working it's not." VS "MAN UP, SHOW HER SHE CAN'T ACT LIKE THAT." Also the concept of "nice-ing back" was related to actually like going out of their way to try to nice the WAS/WS back vs. just being a pleasant human person and approaching the mother/father of their children with the type of kindness and respect we hope are children are approaching strangers with when we aren't looking. Now I'm well aware there are some newbies around here that need it beat over their heads, but I've also seen plenty just behaving like a normal not bitter, angry people looked as being a doormat or trying to nice the stbxs or WAS back. There was a lot more of the kill them with kindness attitude back in the day. If you go to MLC there's still a lot of that attitude there. But those are long haulers who were/are most definitely dealing with actual MLCers. Which isn't something I personally could've done. I don't have it in me to have been able to live in limbo for years. I've read a lot of the MLC board as I've been going through this process because it's an encouraging place to be. It's just a slower, calmer place there. More virtual hugs and less brow beating. That's what the boards seemed to look more like a long time ago.

[LH19]

My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff.

Spit my coffee for the second time today.

[wayfarer]

I can't "control" it now or in the future, but I do know there will come a time where I won't be able to tolerate it anymore and at that time I can make the choice to tap out and say I'm done.

Like LH I'm curious about the timeframe on this. Not necessarily the liner timeframe that LH is looking for. Although you should be keeping that in mind. But what are your markers that you're done? H was having an open affair while still living in the house. He had a move out date set. At first I dreaded the move out date. But as it got closer, I was ready for him to go. I didn't want to live like that any more. I was just exhausted. I was exhausted by his indecision. I was exhausted by trying to have that positive attitude around him even though I wanted to throttle him. I was tired from GALing. I'm an introvert and I just wanted to be home and read my books and drink wine and be left alone. So SD what's tired of it going to look like for you?