“When it comes to all types of relationships, setting and enforcing healthy boundaries is essential to maintaining mutual respect and admiration. If you allow people to treat you like a doormat without standing up for yourself, you invite more of this disrespectful behavior from people who are already abusing you and those who witness your abuse. The strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it, and therefore, sometimes you have to walk away from people and circumstances that steal your peace and no longer serve you. The wrong people whose goals and values are not aligned with your own will let you go, and those who took you for granted will be remorseful, apologize and treat you like you deserve to be treated. You don’t get what you deserve in life, only what you negotiate.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Something I have been interested in working on is understanding relationships better. Something I read with Cory Wayne and also with Tony Robbins was about the masiculine vs feminine energy and sexual polarity. I realize that our relationship was very off-base. My WW is a control freak, she has to be in charge of things, she has to know everything, she hates surprises and if you just come up with spontaneous plans she will most likely be put-off. I am more of a very laid back easy going type of guy. My problem is I was raised by my single mom and didnt have much of a masculine role model.
I am of the mind that the reason my wife loves me is that I have that soft, nice guy, more easy going and compassionate side. And it makes her feel good and loved and all that. But what was missing is the attraction. And if I was more in the feminine role and she was more in the masculine its only a matter of time until that dynamic breaks down. I was doing all the child rearing, cleaning, working, etc. She was simply existing in the M and doing pretty much nothing but hanging out and being spoiled. I sort of believe this (NOT AN EXCUSE) but was a symptom of why she went outside the M for affairs. Losing attraction over time. But couldnt leave me and the safety of her M. Until the last OM showed up who seemed so nice and caring and everything I was but with more money and he was shiny and new. Then he wanted her to stay home, to cook, to clean to watch his 3 kids and our two kids. That didnt work for her and she began to argue with him, stonewall, bicker about the kids, get frustrated and resentful toward him. In the end she still sees him as a good person and thinks thier only issue was the kids but no not really.
I feel like in the next relationship I need to take a handfull of both of these things. I will still love and support and be very compassionate, but Im going to also not be afraid to ask things of my partner, say what I want in a loving way, and expect them to put in the work that I do. I dont need to be 1000% masculine constantly thats just not me. But I definately cannot be in the feminine energy all the time. yes girls love a sweet sensitive caring man, but he becomes unattractive and boring over time. In line with the NMMG stuff. I guess its observations I think I saw in our R. Thought id share them.
Tony Robbins has had several women, not woman, WOMEN accuse him of sexual misconduct. Even more accused him of blatant misogyny. So I strongly, strongly suggest you look else where for relationship advice. Particularly anything involving gender dynamics. Albeit archaic, and I don't recommend you dump any energy into it at all, if you feel you must please pay attention to who you're listening to. There are plenty of old fashioned folks out there not running around trying to coerce or berate women. I'm not a huge fan of that Texan TV Doctor, he and I don't agree on much, but he loves his wife, and as far as I can tell he doesn't actually hate women. He seems to respect them. There are plenty of others like him.
While I respect other's who choose to have a gendered relationship dynamic in heteronormative relationships that is not what all women look for. I do not choose overtly masculine "alpha" men because they will not tolerate me, or me asserting my will, my power, my sexuality or my opinion. I can't have that. I won't have that for me and I refuse to see my girls raised in a relationship like that. I will never defer to man just because. I will never live subserviently for any other reason than I know my partner will do the same out of love. There is a line between being a self-possessed man and being a jerk. I've met very few men who consider themselves self-possessed and masculine who are not complete a-holes. Gender roles are a construct and a massive crutch for couples who refuse to be in a partnership with their spouse. Even the Bible quote people like to point out in it's whole context isn't about a wife becoming completely submissive to her husband it asks that both the husband and the wife defer to each other. To love and put each other before everyone but god. No one needs to be deferential in a relationship based on their reproductive organs. People should willingly participate in their marriage and family in equal parts because they are part of something not because their role has been dictated by pseudoscience or societal constructs.
I will however agree man or woman (because I was married to the male version of this in my first MR) as one spouse continues to agree to more and more and more of weight of the household and marriage (or simply just takes it on because they've been left with no other option) a narcist will let you have it and the blame you for not keep up with yourself or them. My 1st H was mentally ill, and addict an a complete narcissist. I was expected to do all the cooking, cleaning, child rearing, work in our relationship, and to bring home at least 1/2 the income. Nothing was ever enough. I'm saying this because Steve you need to understand what happened in your MR had nothing to do with you or your gender roles. What happened was because your stbxw is a dumpster fire of a human being. And people like that spend an awful lot of time convincing their partners they're the problem. They will chip away at you and your self-worth over the course of years until there's only a shell of you left, and then tell you you aren't the person they fell in love with when they feel like they are done with you. Ginger has this summed up for you perfectly. Read that and re-read that every time you start to think this mess was some how all on you.
Last and probably most important note, asking for what you want and need in a relationship is called emotional maturity not masculinity.
“When it comes to all types of relationships, setting and enforcing healthy boundaries is essential to maintaining mutual respect and admiration. If you allow people to treat you like a doormat without standing up for yourself, you invite more of this disrespectful behavior from people who are already abusing you and those who witness your abuse. The strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it, and therefore, sometimes you have to walk away from people and circumstances that steal your peace and no longer serve you. The wrong people whose goals and values are not aligned with your own will let you go, and those who took you for granted will be remorseful, apologize and treat you like you deserve to be treated. You don’t get what you deserve in life, only what you negotiate.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Even the Bible quote people like to point out in it's whole context isn't about a wife becoming completely submissive to her husband it asks that both the husband and the wife defer to each other.
The sermon we read at my wedding had to do with this. The husband is the roof who protects the wife and shelters her, but the wife is the base upon which the roof is supported. Our priest really put it into a great perspective for today.
As far as gender roles being a social construct, I take that to mean that gender roles are an idea that has been created and accepted by society. I don't see that as good or bad in itself. I do think that those gender roles exist because, in science we have learned that form follows function. And to me that sounds so much like the roof and the foundation both contributing to a mutually beneficial relationship.
I can see the majority of women not wanting a stay at home man and I have no way of proving that. I don't think you undo thousands of years of evolution this quickly if at all. I think the term "masculine" has more than a touch of stigma right now and we are all better served by detaching and thinking logically about our issues. However I don't think these are the real issues here. The real issue is someone who could do all the things his W has done and a person who would keep taking her back both have issues they need to tackle.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I could go on for days about women in the work force, the construct of gender and gender roles. I can give you anecdotal information about the stay at home dads I know and the very happy marriages and lives they have. I could talk about the false narrative most people have been fed regarding hunter/gather society and how paleo-anarchal societies are far more egalitarian and non-monogamous than they were taught as children. But it's irrelevant because like trying to gender marriage problems it's pointless. Relationship dynamics are rarely influenced by gender roles and are far more influenced by the issues of the people in them like communication, caretaking work load, mental illness, trauma, personal history, etc.
Bad people do bad things because they are bad people not because their spouse was too feminine or masculine. Good people make a series of mistakes because for any number of reasons they become self focused and lack empathy, not because their spouse treated them too well. People in crisis behave irrationally and do completely illogical things regardless of reproductive organs.
No one should waste their time feeding into gender dynamics when they could be doing a lot more work on themselves. And in particular Steve should not feed into gender roles being the crux of the problems in the MR when we can all see the the biggest issue is the stbxw. Just as a whole. She's a walking red flag of a human person. She was the problem. She is the problem. And all the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world trying to deconstruct the MR to find what went wrong will not help moving forward and beyond the chaos here. DBing and whole lot of IC is the only path here.
Short note. Not sure if it’s common knowledge but native Americans were way ahead of us on gender. “ Before point of contact with European colonizers, it is thought that all indigenous societies in North America recognized five distinct genders amongst their people: Male, female, transgender, Two Spirit female, and Two Spirit male.” “ The ability to look at the world from the perspectives of both the male and female spirit was generally looked upon as a gift, something to be valued.”
Then of course a load of self righteous idiots decided all of their culture was [censored] and had to be destroyed.
Last edited by Mumin; 03/24/2107:12 PM.
Me: 34 Stbxw: 30 D:5 D:3 Mini bd: May/June 2019 Married: Aug 2019 BD: 6th Dec 2019 OM Confirmed: Feb 2020 March 2020: I filed for D Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
Lots of good responses. And I was never a stay at home dad, I always worked, paid every bill and also did all that cooking, cleaning, child rearing etc. she quite literally sat around and looked pretty that was it. Yep big mistake. Gender or no gender there was not a partnership. Point blank and period.
Otherwise not a lot to report. Been spending more time with the kids. Took them to the snow the other day, drove the RC trucks around up there on the mountain. Today I took my son to the nickel arcade. Also I downloaded a dating app. But I have zero Intention of dating. It’s actually just to talk to people of the opposite sex and kind of be social. I don’t hang around bars and the like. So far a couple nice people but they either want quick sex or a marriage. I need nothing from anyone. Including my WW. I am still having a hard time facing that my M is over and not blaming it all on me. But I keep my mouth shut and just move forward. I am still a bit much in replies too wordy as you pointed out sandy. But my convincing, and nicing and etc has really gone significantly down. I know I should have the balls to just stop but my NGs was so bad that even slowly backing off is hard.
I’ll get there. And it’s gonna hurt. And it [censored]. But that seems to be life, and nothing will remain terrible forever.
Oh and get this: my WW actually 100% believes that we will be together in the future, she outright admits she will never do better for her or the kids. But she isn’t “ready” right now and enjoys the feeling of being single for “awhile” before she re-commits to the M. Yeah what that is is simple. My H is out, but still attached so I can do whatever I want until mom and dad move away and I’ll stay in the house and get my loving H back when they go in several months or so. That is exactly her plan... just... wow...
Even the GD grinch on his foulest day had a bigger heart than that.
Last edited by Steve_; 03/25/2104:30 AM.
T:11 M:10 K: D5, S7 BD: 9/1/20 WW continues to break up and recon with OM. I paid last fees and pushed the D 5/3/2021 Default Dissolution granted 8/5/21. Glad my D was not busted.
