WAW willing to try, for now (#2)

[LH19]

Until sick mom misses what she lost, she will not desire you.

Truth!

[mako]

What you all are saying makes a lot of sense. I will basically just parrot it back with my understanding. It all seems so simple looking it over, but in practice it likely never is.

What it all really comes down to is:
1) We both need to be attracted to each other for this to work
2) We both need to be committed to working on the M for this to work

(These shouldn’t be controversial. Really need to be true for any healthy R. 1 seems obvious. And 2, good M’s don’t just happen, they take work, and we already didn’t work out once so if we don’t change anything that’s where we’ll likely end up again)

Obviously she BD’d me, so these weren’t true for her. I’ve already said I wasn’t happy prior to BD either so 1 wasn’t really true anymore for me either, and I was willing to do 2 but never followed through.

So we both need to make some changes.
3) For 1 to happen, we both need to work on ourselves to be more attractive people
4) For 2 to happen, we both need to put in more effort, whether that is MC, better communication, or whatever.

I've been doing IC and reading and trying to recognize more of my role in all this. I could be better at GAL but I am trying there too. So I am working on 3. I am not sure that she is doing anything on 3. I have said, she is certainly treating me better and being far less distant than she was prior to BD, so that is something, maybe that is more on 4, but either way it isn’t a whole lot. I’d like to see more. What she is doing isn't really changing 1 for me.

4 seems more like a it takes two to tango thing. It’s harder to do by yourself. I am still willing to do 4, but it feels outside my control until she steps up. So I wait on that and focus on 3.

So a big thing now is I need to figure out how long I want to wait on improvement. Setting the date as Steve says. If she doesn’t do 3, my attraction to her is just not going to be there, and if she won’t do 4, the M is certainly going to fail. So yeah, it is reasonable to say, in my mind, if you aren't going to do these things it isn't going to work out so I will be prepared to end it myself. I'm not sure yet how I feel about when that should be, so for now I'll say a year from BD. That's February, and gives us both more than enough time to make progress. Obviously things could happen to quicken or delay this so we'll see.

One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it. As far as 180s go, I should be open and honest about my wants and needs. But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count. I appreciate that I have a number of folks with thousands of posts commenting. You all have seen a lot of sitches and have a lot of experience here. I also appreciate I don't want to push her away. So for now I'm not going to say anything about it.

[LH19]

For the record I’m not in the consensus. I don’t agree you just play it out until next February and then D her. Right now she has zero incentive to work on the marriage so must likely she won’t. WWs do not magically find their way back to their spouses.

[Traveler]

One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it.

Mako, that sounds passive-aggressive! I don't think that's the take-away.

I am not advocating MC UNTIL she makes it clear that she is ready to work on the marriage through action.

A common DB maxim is that MC is pointless unless you're both saying "Yes!" to the relationship. I see you posting here, wondering about MC, doing IC, trying to figure out the right amount of physical contact. What is she doing to show you that a successful marriage to you is a priority in her life?

We worry you're in a fake recon--a long limbo followed by BD #2. A couple of options have been proposed--

1) Wait upto X time for her to commit so you're not in limbo forever.
2) Require commitment as a term of any reconciliation.

Some members have taken approaches in-between these. I'll bring up Discernment Therapy again. Some required their spouses to make progress on a commit/no-commit decision within a reasonable time. You don't need to make a decision quickly, it's great to take your time, just don't get stuck too long. (:

[may22]

Here's my recommendation-- give all the worrying about IC and MC, worrying about whether to touch her or not, etc. a break for a period of time, like at least a month or two, then re-evaluate. Spend that time to continue to just focus on you and DBing. Be kind, be positive, GAL as much as possible, keep a PMA around her at all times. When you're with her, be present, make good eye contact, listen and validate and all the rest, then go and do your own thing. I think you're still in the DB-ing phase. Focus on being the best dad you can possibly be. She's shown interest but she isn't all in, so keep doing what was working-- DB-ing.

I don't think you can consider yourself in piecing until she's telling you she's IN and wants to do the hard work. MC until then, as others have said, is pointless.

For the record I’m not in the consensus. I don’t agree you just play it out until next February and then D her. Right now she has zero incentive to work on the marriage so must likely she won’t. WWs do not magically find their way back to their spouses.

I agree with LH that WWs don't magically find their way back to their spouses. However, I only agree with LH here if you were just sitting around pretending things were fine till next Feb and then dropping your own bomb. If you follow MWD's recommendations and continue to DB that whole time, it is entirely possible that she will come around.

Also, you have zero control over what she thinks or does. You can't wish her into desiring MC or you. All you can control is yourself. So spend the time focusing on the DB principles and she may eventually want back in. If she doesn't, you're still better off anyway as you spent the time working positively on yourself.

I did discernment therapy and think it was helpful in my sitch but mostly because I was not okay with continuing the status quo as it was. From my read of your sitch, I doubt that you'd get a positive outcome pushing either MC or DC at this point, but that's just me. My recommendation is to be patient and keep on DBing for awhile first.

Hang in there! Hug your kids!

[LH19]

So again it’s another sitch where girl gets to go on dating apps and sleep around and then comeback home with zero consequences.

This never works! Ever! Go read Gordie's thread in MLC. Go read SaltyDogs thread.

On page one you say she says she is in. Make her prove it.

[SteveLW]

What you all are saying makes a lot of sense. I will basically just parrot it back with my understanding. It all seems so simple looking it over, but in practice it likely never is.

What it all really comes down to is:
1) We both need to be attracted to each other for this to work
2) We both need to be committed to working on the M for this to work

(These shouldn’t be controversial. Really need to be true for any healthy R. 1 seems obvious. And 2, good M’s don’t just happen, they take work, and we already didn’t work out once so if we don’t change anything that’s where we’ll likely end up again)

Well said.

Obviously she BD’d me, so these weren’t true for her. I’ve already said I wasn’t happy prior to BD either so 1 wasn’t really true anymore for me either, and I was willing to do 2 but never followed through.

Recognizing that it takes two tango is good. Likely neither of you were perfect spouses, and neither were happy. So there is plenty of blame to go around.

So we both need to make some changes.
3) For 1 to happen, we both need to work on ourselves to be more attractive people
4) For 2 to happen, we both need to put in more effort, whether that is MC, better communication, or whatever.

Remember, you can only control you! So you make the changes related to 1 and 2, and leave her to figure out 1 and 2 for herself. Where so many LBSs get into trouble in limbo is by pressuring and pursuing. You go and work on #1, you go and work on #2. She will either respond positively to that or she will continue to be obstinate. You have no control over that.

WWs are similar and different to geology. Geology takes time and pressure. WWs take time (like geology) and LACK of pressure (unlike geology). So that is why the right move is to always back off and remove all pressure. Look at limbo as the gift of time where you go off and work on yourself through IC, GAL, 180s, and learning how to be a self-differentiated individual (detachment). You leave them to figure out their own garbage.

You know all that but I say because I see you saying both, both, both. And I just want to remind you that you have no control over her related to 1-4. She has to arrive there on her own.

I've been doing IC and reading and trying to recognize more of my role in all this. I could be better at GAL but I am trying there too. So I am working on 3. I am not sure that she is doing anything on 3. I have said, she is certainly treating me better and being far less distant than she was prior to BD, so that is something, maybe that is more on 4, but either way it isn’t a whole lot. I’d like to see more. What she is doing isn't really changing 1 for me.

Good self-recognition, and reading where she is at. All of us have been there, where again, we were confused. "She BD'd me. But now she is being nice, she is doing things as a family, she is talking about the future. I don't know what she wants!" Remember, when she wants to recommit to the marriage you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused. The point behind that is that if you still have questions, if you aren't seeing what you expect or need from her, then she probably isn't there yet. So your choices are: give her more time......or move forward without her.

4 seems more like a it takes two to tango thing. It’s harder to do by yourself. I am still willing to do 4, but it feels outside my control until she steps up. So I wait on that and focus on 3.

Disagree. You can become a man only a fool would leave. That is you doing #4. She will either respond positively to it, or she will be already so far checked out that she won't care. Her reaction to it is less important than you becoming the best version of yourself.....FOR YOU! So many LBSs make the mistake of DBing with one eye on how the WAS is reacting. "I am doing X! Oh she is being nicer! I am doing Y, oh she is acting like she wants to still leave. I am doing Z, she isn't even noticing!" A watch pot NEVER boils.

So a big thing now is I need to figure out how long I want to wait on improvement. Setting the date as Steve says. If she doesn’t do 3, my attraction to her is just not going to be there, and if she won’t do 4, the M is certainly going to fail. So yeah, it is reasonable to say, in my mind, if you aren't going to do these things it isn't going to work out so I will be prepared to end it myself. I'm not sure yet how I feel about when that should be, so for now I'll say a year from BD. That's February, and gives us both more than enough time to make progress. Obviously things could happen to quicken or delay this so we'll see.

Obviously I agree with setting a drop dead date. Won't beat that dead horse. But again, I am seeing a lot of "If she, blah blah blah". Again, you are doing all of this for Mako. February is for you! This is not something you broadcast to her. "You have until February or I am going to leave myself." You do not want to set her up to manipulate it. You will never know if her recommit is genuine or if it is to buy more time. WW love to have their cake and eat it too. If you give an ultimatum sometimes they will make decisions that buy them more time. Especially in IHS where they are still getting the benefits of having a H, all be it one they've stated they do not want anymore.

What I think you are still missing Mako is that DBing is for you! Setting a drop dead date is for you! Moving forward is for you! When you do these things for yourself, sometimes the WAS will realize "wow, he is really moving away from me!" Sometimes that will wake them up. However, when you do all of those things for the WAS' benefit they almost NEVER will respond positively to it. To them it will feel like you trying to manipulate them and they will push back against it.

So do all that for you, regardless of what her reactions to it are. Move forward for you!

One weird thing to me is that the consensus seems that I shouldn't say anything about wanting MC. I am supposed to hold her accountable if she doesn't do it. As far as 180s go, I should be open and honest about my wants and needs. But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count. I appreciate that I have a number of folks with thousands of posts commenting. You all have seen a lot of sitches and have a lot of experience here. I also appreciate I don't want to push her away. So for now I'm not going to say anything about it.

Reread what MWD says about MC. MC can work when both partners are all in to making the MR work. If one has one foot out of the door, MC almost never works. And holding her accountable until she is fully recommitted is pressure and pursuit. You shouldn't be thinking about holding her accountable right now. Being open and honest about your wants and needs is pressure and pursuit.

As far as "But it seems like it has to be her idea or it doesn't really count." That is correct! It does have to be her idea. It has to be her idea to work on the marriage. It has to be her idea to give the MR another shot. It has to be her idea to change her mind about what she stated on BD. I always like the analogy of a cat. If I pick our cat up and put her on my lap, by instinct she will jump down. Lots of time she will immediately turn around and jump right back up....because it has to be our cat's idea to jump and sit in my lap! Your WAW is the same way. If you try to grab her and put her on her lap, her instinct will be to jump and run. If she comes to you on her own and wants to work on the MR, there is a lot higher chance that it will actually take.

Just my thoughts......I do think Mako you are in a better space than a lot of other posters here. But we've also seen a lot of LBSs that jumped all in with the requirements and stating their wants and needs at the first sign the WAS was having second thoughts on the D, and it almost always results in the in the WAS running the other direction.

[SteveLW]

[quote=Mako] You don't need to make a decision quickly, it's great to take your time, just don't get stuck too long. (:

Thank you! This is what I have been trying to say, but this is much more succinct and to the point!

[LH19]

This is why the recon rate is at about 5%. There is no accountability and the LBS is fine with status quo and at best it is a stay of execution until the WW walks again.

[SteveLW]

The recon rate is 5% because by time BD happens the WAS has been considering that for 2+ years. Further, most LBSs do the wrong things (beg, plead, promise, use logic, etc). Or they become super-spouse giving the WAS everything they ever wanted in an effort to nice them back. Or they constantly barrage the WAS with temp checks, like the 5 year-old in the backseat: "Are we there yet?"

Backing off, giving space, going and focusing on yourself gives you a higher chance of reconning......but even thenl if the WAS wants to walk, they'll walk................