The reason that MWD's core DB-ing basic advice remains detach, GAL, and 180s is that it works. Maybe it works to lead to reconciliation. Maybe it just leads to a better you. That is the philosophy of this board. So I find it kind of odd that LH wants to keep calling it cookie cutter and force Mako to give his W an ultimatum, which I'm fairly certain will lead towards D. LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website.
I agree with WF and Steve85 on this. Mako, if you want out, go. If you want to give your M a chance, focus on you and release all pressure on her. Let go of CARING about all the back and forth of what to do and not to do, where her head is or isn't. Detach! Spend all that extra energy you were expending worrying about her on things that feed your soul (GAL!) Take a hard look at your own behaviors and change up your ingrained responses to external stimuli, whether from your W or your child or something else. (180s!)
I think where LH is off base here is that somehow by your W saying the words that she wants to reconcile (while deathly ill) that means it is what she knows she wants 100%. (or, more likely, he knows she isn't and so by pushing her on this she'll tell you she's not and that frees you to dump her.) It seems to me from what you've posted here that she isn't wholly in. Maybe she wants to be, but she's still confused. Pushing her on anything from physical contact to MC is just going to push her out the door. (Or, she'll say the words she knows you want to hear, but she won't really be there.) Patience is the name of the game here.
LH feels like all you are doing is kicking the can down the road by not confronting her now and making her say all in or all out. What Steve and WF are saying (and I agree) is that the DBing principles are not a waste of time, regardless of whether you practice them with her in the house or on your way to a merry D. I think LH can't conceive of DB-ing while living with your spouse, and I agree that it isn't for everyone. But I did it and so did Steve and WF, so it is clearly possible. Not easy. But possible.
For me, I wanted to be able to know in my bones that I did everything I could to save my M for my children and I used that to fuel my ability to be patient. Again, this isn't for everyone. It was awful and $hitty and you can read my thread if you want to know how much it $ucked. But I decided early on that the most important thing for me, looking back at this time in my life, is that I didn't have any regrets, and so I tried to do everything I could from the perspective of looking back. Maybe you worry that your biggest regret will be that you didn't move on sooner! if that is the case, then go! Everyone is different. You need to think about what your core values are, how you want them represented in your life, and what that means for the choices you make today.
I also hit a point where I wasn't okay with waiting anymore, and that is when we went to discernment counseling. So that could also be an option for you. However, reading your words, I don't sense that you're at that point-- but that is something for you to consider as well.
I will tell you from my own experience, just having your spouse say they're committed DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. I absolutely 1000% agree with Steve that once your spouse says that to you, you need to double down on DBing, not let up. I think it would be a huge mistake to start an R talk now and make your W say she's all in, MC, IC, till death do us part again, or you're walking (unless you want to walk and just want an excuse to have given her a last chance).I just don't see that getting you anywhere. But just my two cents.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
The reason that MWD's core DB-ing basic advice remains detach, GAL, and 180s is that it works. Maybe it works to lead to reconciliation. Maybe it just leads to a better you. That is the philosophy of this board. So I find it kind of odd that LH wants to keep calling it cookie cutter and force Mako to give his W an ultimatum, which I'm fairly certain will lead towards D. LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website.
I agree with WF and Steve85 on this. Mako, if you want out, go. If you want to give your M a chance, focus on you and release all pressure on her. Let go of CARING about all the back and forth of what to do and not to do, where her head is or isn't. Detach! Spend all that extra energy you were expending worrying about her on things that feed your soul (GAL!) Take a hard look at your own behaviors and change up your ingrained responses to external stimuli, whether from your W or your child or something else. (180s!)
I think where LH is off base here is that somehow by your W saying the words that she wants to reconcile (while deathly ill) that means it is what she knows she wants 100%. (or, more likely, he knows she isn't and so by pushing her on this she'll tell you she's not and that frees you to dump her.) It seems to me from what you've posted here that she isn't wholly in. Maybe she wants to be, but she's still confused. Pushing her on anything from physical contact to MC is just going to push her out the door. (Or, she'll say the words she knows you want to hear, but she won't really be there.) Patience is the name of the game here.
LH feels like all you are doing is kicking the can down the road by not confronting her now and making her say all in or all out. What Steve and WF are saying (and I agree) is that the DBing principles are not a waste of time, regardless of whether you practice them with her in the house or on your way to a merry D. I think LH can't conceive of DB-ing while living with your spouse, and I agree that it isn't for everyone. But I did it and so did Steve and WF, so it is clearly possible. Not easy. But possible.
For me, I wanted to be able to know in my bones that I did everything I could to save my M for my children and I used that to fuel my ability to be patient. Again, this isn't for everyone. It was awful and $hitty and you can read my thread if you want to know how much it $ucked. But I decided early on that the most important thing for me, looking back at this time in my life, is that I didn't have any regrets, and so I tried to do everything I could from the perspective of looking back. Maybe you worry that your biggest regret will be that you didn't move on sooner! if that is the case, then go! Everyone is different. You need to think about what your core values are, how you want them represented in your life, and what that means for the choices you make today.
I also hit a point where I wasn't okay with waiting anymore, and that is when we went to discernment counseling. So that could also be an option for you. However, reading your words, I don't sense that you're at that point-- but that is something for you to consider as well.
I will tell you from my own experience, just having your spouse say they're committed DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE. I absolutely 1000% agree with Steve that once your spouse says that to you, you need to double down on DBing, not let up. I think it would be a huge mistake to start an R talk now and make your W say she's all in, MC, IC, till death do us part again, or you're walking (unless you want to walk and just want an excuse to have given her a last chance).I just don't see that getting you anywhere. But just my two cents.
Mako I will differ to May as she went to an IVY league school and her opinion is smarter and better then everyone else.
Bottom line is you should only want to be with someone who wants to be with you.
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .
This is a very ignorant statement on your part that Pi$$es me off because I don't agree Detach, 180 and GAL is the right move for Mako.
I’m getting a pedicure reading the interesting back and forth.
I don’t agree with detach GAL 180 as the sole action in this. Mako has done that before. And look. His wife left yet again. And came back yet again. If she said she wanted to reconcile a second time, well, I sure as heck would want to see something happen. I would be direct about it too. Because this is the second time he’s going down this road! How many times does he want to sit and wait in the corner afraid to poke the lion?
That is truly up to him. If he wants to cycle through this again, this way, by all means. But there is a cycle here.and nothing wrong with mako being clear and precise of what he needs to see this time around.
But I do agree, he can’t go down that road if he can’t handle finding out this is a false start. But if he’s ready to lay down what HE NEEDS to see, he absolutely should! This is not bad advice in his situation. But mako, if you want to just do your own thing while she does her own thing, go ahead. But I don’t think you are going to get what you desire out of that action, except walking down this road yet again in the future
LH, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying you should head over to the chump lady's board. I think she is fabulous. The reason I say that is her philosophy aligns very closely with yours and you'll be with your people there, rather than continuing to trash the core tenets of the founder of this website. .
Definitions of the phrase cookie cutter include - "having the same configuration or look as many others of a given kind; lacking individuality; stereotyped or formulaic"
Detach, GAL and 180 is a powerful tool and is beneficial for us to adopt in our lives in more than one situation. However, implying that posters on this board should always align with the core tenets of the founder of this website or head over to a different board is implying that individuality and personal opinions should be eliminated when in conflict with the core "detail, GAL and 180" generic advice regardless of the situation. I wonder how that does not come down to giving "cookie cutter advice on detach, GAL and 180"?
I’m getting a pedicure reading the interesting back and forth.
I don’t agree with detach GAL 180 as the sole action in this. Mako has done that before. And look. His wife left yet again. And came back yet again. If she said she wanted to reconcile a second time, well, I sure as heck would want to see something happen. I would be direct about it too. Because this is the second time he’s going down this road! How many times does he want to sit and wait in the corner afraid to poke the lion?
That is truly up to him. If he wants to cycle through this again, this way, by all means. But there is a cycle here.and nothing wrong with mako being clear and precise of what he needs to see this time around.
But I do agree, he can’t go down that road if he can’t handle finding out this is a false start. But if he’s ready to lay down what HE NEEDS to see, he absolutely should! This is not bad advice in his situation. But mako, if you want to just do your own thing while she does her own thing, go ahead. But I don’t think you are going to get what you desire out of that action, except walking down this road yet again in the future
Ginger, mako's first sitch was with his first wife. They D'd. This new sitch is with his second W, they married in 2009.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I was more referring to the bomb drop in 2018 where she never did leave but said she wanted a divorce.
GAL is great. For anyone in any situation
180’s are good, but there are only so many people need to make. It’s not there is everything wrong about us that we need to change.
Detach, well, yeah, don’t make your every decision and have every emotion attached to your partner. That’s what detachment means to me anyways.
Obviously she says she throws the divorce word around. Not cool. What really needs to 180 is saying to wife “hey, this is the second time you said you wanted a divorce and now you say you want to reconcile. How can we get to that point together?”
I think LH is saying just leaving them there to do their own thing while they figure out what they really want is kind of BS. When that’s done, patterns are sure to repeat. If someone says they actually want to work on the marriage there needs to be open communication, a plan a s both parties needs addressed and the WAS shouldn’t get all the power
Ginger, the problem with that is that the WAS DOES have all the power. Shouldn't has nothing to do with it. The LBS, by definition, wants to save the MR. However, that's now solely up to the WAS. That's why 99.9% of LBSs come to DBing and this forum. If it was as easy as saying "are you in or are you out" and then Ring when they are and Ding when they aren't, then MWD would never have had to write DB and DR. One of the first rules of DB is to not start any R talks. There is a reason for that. It isn't because MWD came to that on a whim. It is because talk is cheap and the R talks almost never go the way the LBS thinks/hopes that it will. So when a WAS says "I want to work on the marriage" it actually is really simple to see if that is true or not: do their actions match those words?
Even if you have the R talk, and by some aligning of the stars it actually goes the way the LBS hopes and the WAS says again they want to work on the marriage....the proof is in the action that follows. That's all I've been saying to mako. If he is still wondering at this point if her illness time pronunciation that she was ready to work on the marriage was real, then it wasn't! And no amount of breaking DB principles, like starting an R talk, will change that.
And mako if you did follow that advice, and she crushes your grapes by saying, "no I still want a D", then what? I'm guessing at this point you still aren't ready to throw in the towel, are you? So it will gain you nothing.
Your sitch, your choice. But I'm afraid it won't go the way you want it to, and you'll be worse off for having had the discussion than if you didn't.
Last edited by SteveLW; 05/19/2110:14 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
