WAW willing to try, for now (#2)

[wayfarer]

Mako,
I'm the the Steve camp of this is your life and these are your decisions to make, so you do what you feels best but always be DBing. It's what's best for you, and it's what's best for the MR if there's a chance to R here. I'd really urge you to go read through my thread. 4 months my H was in an active affair then he was dumped pretty unceremoniously by OW. Days after he was dumped he was looking for physical affection. The true affection, the emotion, the remorse, the big feelings and big talks. All of that came later.

It's difficult to find on here, if I have some time and I try to find some of the the links somewhere. Steve posted some good ones on May's thread recently. The OG DBers like R2C's original group talked more about R and piecing because like he said there seemed to be more of it then. I have my own personal opinions on why but that's besides the point. What I read when I found that info was that reconciliation and piecing aren't truly one in the same. Reconciliation is the time period in which you the LBS gets to reintroduce the new you to the WS and the WS gets to reintroduce themselves to the LBS. You with your new found better man-ness and her with her new found remorse and change of heart. New eyes. New people. You start, starting over. Not more MR 1.0 dragged on with a coat of new paint. Like actual new people dating and getting to know each other again. Feeling out if this is going to work. In particular you feeling out if you want to keep going down this road or cut your losses. Assessing the things like is this a game? Is this her biding her time? Does it feel like she's genuinely trying or is she trying to decide what to do with you? Are you willing to wait this out long enough to find out? Do you have the wherewithal to not push her? Do you have the will to work on you and keeping working on you and not dropping everything and dumping it in to fixing the MR because like every one is saying what will fix it is DBing principles?

A 3 month turn around is rare but not unheard of. But like Steve said it's a drop in the bucket. In this part it's going to take her as long if not longer to decided what she really wants, to see you as a person of value and to show and say how remorseful she truly is, not about blowing up your lives but genuinely about hurting you like that (not any of this I didn't mean to hurt you stuff). If she's on that path it'll happen but it's going to happen on her timeline not yours. You will have to drop any expectation that you a) can control the path of any of this b) you can control her. Expectations must go out the door. This is why you have to focus on you. If you're focused on continuing to grow and move forward regardless of out come you aren't left the time or energy to control her journey here. I think a while back I wrote this on May's thread. Probably over a year ago now. While your journeys here are parallel they are not the same path. You'll each have different terrain to traverse, hills to climb, and storms to weather. You'll both be subjected to watching each other navigate, but you have no control over how fast or slow, or well or poorly she completes her journey. And if you want this to work, you let her do her work and you do yours. When it's time you'll walk the path together.

If you guys get through that individual journey. If you make it to true remorse and find yourself in a place where you are fine regardless of outcome you may have a real go at reconciliation that will make it to piecing. That's when you begin to put the work in together. That's the time you have control over the momentum and direction of the journey. Until you're at the bridge where R meets piecing your list of wants and needs in MR 2.0 is irrelevant. You have to actually see MR 2.0 on the horizon before you can start digging in. Know what you need to cross that bridge, but now isn't the time to hand her the list. Now's the time to just keep moving forward one step at a time.

[wayfarer]

That should say CAN'T control. I didn't get to the edit button quick enough.

[LH19]

So it just finally hit me that Steve’s advice to the LBS is to act like a WW. Detach because that’s what WWs do from their spouse and their families. Work on yourself because that’s what WWs do they start exercising, Botox, boob jobs. Find new friends that’s because that’s what WWs do. Then out of nowhere after x amount of time you bomb them by filing for D.

Or you sit down with them because they have expressed interest in reconciliation and you discuss where you went wrong and what you will do to move on to marriage 2.0. If they want to work towards that with you great! If they do not that is ok too. Going back into limbo is rarely ends well for the WW spouse.

Assuming Sandi is ok health wise which I really hope she is, my guess is she left the board because her voice wasn’t being heard. She would NEVER advocate a LBS pretend like nothing happened.

Great debates by good people who are trying to help strangers get through the hardest thing they have most likely ever went through in their lives.

[mako]

I appreciate all of this back and forth. There is a lot of good advice in this thread and I thank you all, not just those I am directly quoting or responding to. I see merit to what everybody is saying.

Here's my recommendation-- give all the worrying about IC and MC, worrying about whether to touch her or not, etc. a break for a period of time, like at least a month or two, then re-evaluate. Spend that time to continue to just focus on you and DBing….

I don't think you can consider yourself in piecing until she's telling you she's IN and wants to do the hard work. MC until then, as others have said, is pointless.

One negative in my sitch is that I'm starting to get a bit mentally drained. I know that 3 months is not really a long time in the grand scheme of these things, everyone here has gone way longer, but I’m tired of trying to analyze everything and be on all the time. I’ve been whipped around a bit and was even pretty much done and prepared to move on, which to some extent seemed easier than where I am now. A month ago I was more relaxed and at peace, lately I’ve been much more stressed.

[I don’t mean to belittle what has happened, and I’m sure a lot of LBS would love to be where I am now, but it is just a different place than a month ago with its own difficulties.]

Anyway, all that’s to say that May’s first sentence up there is pretty compelling. I think I need to just take a break where I continue to work on myself but stop worrying about all the rest so much for a little bit. This is just more DBing and less pretending that we are piecing or R’ing or whatever you might call it. The past month I have gotten more neurotically analytical and worrying more about her than me. Whatever the correct road is here, I don’t think that’s it and I need to quit it. Getting into R talks and thinking about how to see if she wants to do MC is not going to let me quit it. I don’t think two months is going to be necessary but two weeks might be. Not meaning a break from this board, just from overanalyzing the sitch in my head all the time.

I know this leads into what LH has been saying. That this is just going back into limbo and pretending like nothing happened with no consequences. Sure, waiting lets her off the hook and keeps the limbo for now; I just need to make sure 2 weeks doesn't become 6 months. I know that he is right too when he says that she can’t just say she’s in, she has to prove it. But LH seems to think she should know right now, and I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's all going to ebb and flow, more like wayfarer is talking about with feeling out and dating almost a new person. Anyway, waiting and still working on me at least is moving me forward, in a way that I wasn’t prior to BD, so it is something, and lets me clear my head for the next phase of this.

I think that it is the case that I am going to bring up MC at some point. I’d rather not wait, knowing this is a deal breaker, then drop a bomb if she never happens to bring it up. If I don’t make clear that it’s necessary to me she won’t know that, and don’t all LBS wish the WAS would have said more prior to BD? I can make my feelings known without it being a controlling or forceful way, so it is still on her. I also think LH has a good argument that if we just go back to how it was before BD it’s just going to happen again. At the same time I recognize that if she’s not into MC it will be pointless, but if that’s the case, then that’s the case.

For whatever it’s worth, my IC is more in line with LH’s opinion, that I should try to get her into MC sooner rather than later, as I’m just going around confused most of the time and we need to communicate more, which MC will facilitate. Maybe once my 2 week break is over I’ll have a better feel for whether this will push her away. Ultimately, I would hope that I know her well enough to see if this is going to be a productive thing or not.

I also think I should address this, because perhaps some advice from some people will be different depending on what has actually happened:

Where are your core values in all of this? Has she had sex with someone else? If so, has she expressed regret? Is she actively having sex with someone else? What behavior have you, or do you, or should you show when dealing with these type of disrespectful behaviors?

She opened her bumble account the day we separated and she left the house, which was a few weeks after BD. She has said that she went out with a couple guys but did no more than talk to them. When she said she wanted to work on the M she also said she deleted the app and told them she was getting back with me and done. I have no reason not to believe her on any of this. Yes there was new underwear, but I’m not going to assume anything based only on that. These things do not particularly bother me very much at this point (if it turns out she was lying to me that will bother me, possibly more than whatever happened). I could be naive, but to me going on a few dates after separation, while we are actively planning a D, is different than doing so prior to BD.

Anyway, you all can feel free to continue arguing on this thread if you like I am gaining something from it.

[LH19]

It’s not so much arguing and it is us voicing our opinion mostly based on past experiences. The problem is that Steve and May can tell you to detach, GAL and see what happens and guess what when you get bombed again there life doesn’t change on bit. Go back and read there stitches which are public knowledge and you will see there sitches turned around when there spouses fantasies got blown up and they became uncomfortable. Steve’s wife started to have to look for a job and was on the other side of 50 and she didn’t like that prospect. It wasn’t because Steve went to the gun range.

In my sitch early on I got fed up one day and was ready to call a lawyer. My ex did not like that and started back tracking. The problem is I let up and once she got comfortable again she started planning her exit strategy. Now this certainly could have happened either way but I can promise you WWs have zero incentive to work on the marriage.

Certainly taking some time to think things through makes sense. I just wouldn’t wait until February.

BTW your MC is a wise person lol. Also just for the record you shouldn’t force her into MC if she doesn’t want to go but if she refuses then you should 100% move on. Just one man’s opinion.

[LH19]

I would also say to you my advice to you is different because this isn’t your first rodeo. To me it makes a difference.

[Ready2Change]

Anyway, you all can feel free to continue arguing on this thread if you like I am gaining something from it.

“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong” Neil deGrasse Tyson

... she said she wanted to work on the M...

Why? (loaded question here).

[OnlyBent]

The OG DBers like R2C's original group talked more about R and piecing because like he said there seemed to be more of it then. I have my own personal opinions on why but that's besides the point.

Always interested in others' thoughts on this Wayfarer

[wayfarer]

Doing nothing is doing something. It's an active choice to live your life while you let the other person spin, alone. You can't be bombed twice if you don't care. Not saying much and watching things play out isn't a lack of consequences. Nor is it status quo. Yes it's limbo, but no it's not at the detriment of the LBS if they are working on themselves. Only the relationship is standing still, the LBS doesn't have to be.

My doing nothing involved me retaining a lawyer, having legal separation papers drawn up. Splitting our finances. Working out a post split budget. Window shopping for things I would need once H and his D left. Working on reconnecting with people, furthering my education, working out, lots of therapy to work on lots of things. I held out hope that H would wake up. I got lucky. He did, but I was preparing myself for things not to work out the way I wanted. Because that was the reality of the situation. It could've gone either way. I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to shock a Wayward or Walkaway into anything. It's manipulative and highly unlikely that it will do anything if they already have a foot out the door. I'm sure for a percentage leading in the race to end things scares them straight, but it wasn't worth my personal time to play that kind of a game. By all means if you're done be done, keep moving forward with the D, but for me personally, I don't like idea of playing this like it's a game of chess. Pre DB and post DB I have the attitude that I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, you want to leave, then leave, you want to stay, then stay. That's your decision.

Sandi while I adore her and she has gobs of wisdom isn't the end all be all of of WW. The concept that all Waywards or Walkaways are exactly the same, share all the same feelings, have the same thoughts, and will act or react identically is silly. Not all LBS are the same either, in crisis yes, but on the other side of crisis so much is so different for each of us. Other than the very basic DBing principles the choices and journey here need to be of the LBS's choosing. There are MLC LBSs that have been "doing nothing" for years. Years. Was that for me? Nope, but if I had been married 20+ years I don't know who I would be, or the choices I would make in that situation. I wasn't so I picked 1 year as a drop dead date. I also didn't see a PA as an absolute line in the sand. For some LBSs that's a hard line. I get that, but that's not for me, so I had to be free to choose what I was willing to continue my MR through. I was willing to suffer through an IHS where my H was actively having a very public affair. But that was my choice. That is not a path everyone is built for. The purpose of the varying advice and opinions is because of those differences some advice will be useful some won't. One of Sandi's biggest rules is take what works for you leave what doesn't.

Lastly, You aren't beholden to your IC. And any IC who is pushing MC for a spouse who's on the fence isn't a very good IC. You want and end to the confusion I'd suggest discernment counseling. MC if she's still undecided will just fast track you guys to D with absolutely none of your questions answered or confusion clarified. MC is a giant magnifying glass on the cracks in your relationship. That's why most recommendations are to stay away from it until both parties are committed to the relationship. You'll gain communication skills and learn things about your spouse that will create moments of deep emotional intimacy but that is laced with that magnifying glass. Two people who aren't fully committed to the relationship with certainty will imploded in MC.

[LH19]

Doing nothing is doing something. It's an active choice to live your life while you let the other person spin, alone. You can't be bombed twice if you don't care. Not saying much and watching things play out isn't a lack of consequences. Nor is it status quo. Yes it's limbo, but no it's not at the detriment of the LBS if they are working on themselves. Only the relationship is standing still, the LBS doesn't have to be.

Cookie cutter advice Detach, GAL 180.

My doing nothing involved me retaining a lawyer, having legal separation papers drawn up. Splitting our finances. Working out a post split budget. Window shopping for things I would need once H and his D left. Working on reconnecting with people, furthering my education, working out, lots of therapy to work on lots of things. I held out hope that H would wake up. I got lucky. He did, but I was preparing myself for things not to work out the way I wanted. Because that was the reality of the situation. It could've gone either way.

This is perfect advice for Mako! Start by getting a lawyer.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to try to shock a Wayward or Walkaway into anything. It's manipulative and highly unlikely that it will do anything if they already have a foot out the door.

Uuuuum not a shock since she told him she wants to work on the marriage. I think that has somehow got lost in this story.

Sandi while I adore her and she has gobs of wisdom isn't the end all be all of of WW. The concept that all Waywards or Walkaways are exactly the same, share all the same feelings, have the same thoughts, and will act or react identically is silly.

Uppercut from Wayfarer. Down goes Sandi lol.

Not all LBS are the same either, in crisis yes, but on the other side of crisis so much is so different for each of us.

Agreed. Mako has been through this before. He's got his big boy pants on. Wife are you in or are you out?

Other than the very basic DBing principles the choices and journey here need to be of the LBS's choosing.

100% the LBS has to live with their choices.

The purpose of the varying advice and opinions is because of those differences some advice will be useful some won't. One of Sandi's biggest rules is take what works for you leave what doesn't.

agree 100%

Lastly, You aren't beholden to your IC. And any IC who is pushing MC for a spouse who's on the fence isn't a very good IC.

How about when the WW says I want to work on the marriage?

Two people who aren't fully committed to the relationship with certainty will imploded in MC.

Agree 100%