WAW willing to try, for now (#2)

[LH19]

M,

That depends. She said she wanted to work on the marriage. Is she putting any effort in? If so plan something lite like dinner. If not then I wouldn’t do anything.

[Traveler]

Yes, while you're in limbo, don't plan a grand romantic evening (pressure, trying to buy her love, highlight what's missing). Anniversaries can feel like darned if you do / darned if you don't!

You probably know I'm a romantic! Early in the day, I'd probably give her a single truffle and a card with no mention of the day but a simple expression of gratitude for something done (where there's no future desire or expectations)--e.g. "I'm thankful you gave me two beautiful children." NOT "I'm thankful you raised our kids for 10yrs." Hopefully, you see the second statement reeks of expectations. As an LBS, it's hard to do a tiny thing, easier to do nothing or a grand romantic gesture. If that's you, do nothing, but a tiny thing would show you remembered and care. The truffle or other tiny (<$5) item (not reeking of romance) shows you know her tastes. Doing it early gives her the chance to guide you if she wants to try more.

[BL42]

mako,

Just re-read through your entire sitch. Wow, you really brought posters out of the wood-work to debate DB philosophies! I commented earlier in your thread, and it's been really helpful for me to read through it again. Lots of good advice.

Nothing new at this point. I’m still in the clear my head/not push the issue mode. Things are fine in general, just nothing on that front.

I wasn't good in my sitch with the limbo, and it feels like your back in limbo. It's good, potentially, she called off the divorce (if I understand correctly you two completed mediation and were about to finalize things when she told you she wanted to try again? Also she was on dating apps (Bumble) and going out, and possibly deleted the apps and isn't pursuing anything outside your marriage at this time? These things to stop the bleeding, so to speak, but has she taken any action on pursuing any reconciliation and working to improve things? As others mention, her actions speak louder than words.

Our 10 year anniversary is in 2 weeks. I haven’t brought it up with her or made any plans, not sure what to do about it.

I have no idea. Honestly seems like it could be a no-win situation, and most likely completely depends on her viewpoint. If she's honestly open to working on the marriage than a gesture for the anniversary would be welcomed, but if she's not open to it than you could get "in trouble" for not doing anything or for doing something. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. Probably goes back to her mindset more than anything you do/don't do, imo.

[mako]

Thanks LH and CW. I am thinking something small. Like BL said, it's kind of a no-win situation where no matter what I do it could be spun as a negative, but that's on her not on me. So I will do something little to acknowledge the day because I want to, but will not plan on anything more. Living and acting with no expectations right now.

mako,

Just re-read through your entire sitch. Wow, you really brought posters out of the wood-work to debate DB philosophies! I commented earlier in your thread, and it's been really helpful for me to read through it again. Lots of good advice.

I wasn't good in my sitch with the limbo, and it feels like your back in limbo. It's good, potentially, she called off the divorce (if I understand correctly you two completed mediation and were about to finalize things when she told you she wanted to try again? Also she was on dating apps (Bumble) and going out, and possibly deleted the apps and isn't pursuing anything outside your marriage at this time? These things to stop the bleeding, so to speak, but has she taken any action on pursuing any reconciliation and working to improve things? As others mention, her actions speak louder than words.

Yeah, I appreciated the back and forth from a lot of experienced DBers. A lot of good thoughts even though not everyone was in agreement.

You are right, we were basically done, the separation agreement was done, we were both going to have a final attorney review and then file. We had an appointment with a realtor to list the house, I had an appointment to look at new places to live...this was a last minute change. She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.

So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting. Limbo is good in some ways, bad in some ways. Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her. At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.

[LH19]

She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.

IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having. The longer this goes on the longer LIMBO becomes status quo.

I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.

[Traveler]

IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave.

Yes, if they ever reconcile--they're clearly not reconciling right now--BOTH parties need to put in the effort to forgive past hurts and form a new bond. It's a dynamic balance and may not feel equal day-to-day. BL42's wife IMHO is more WAS than WW. She indicated she was done and wanted a divorce--THEN bought lacy underwear and went onto Bumble. She was actively pushing the D. She ended a relationship that wasn't working. A nuance here is a WAS often has less to be remorseful about than a WW, sometimes less than the LBS. I'm proud of my refusal to remain in a relationship with my XW that wasn't working, after 1.5yrs of trying. I'm romantic and believe in forever, but I also believe in the pursuit of happiness.

I'm currently reconciling as friends with both my XW and an Ex-GF I wronged. It's funny how, even though it's as friends, the process isn't too dissimilar to when I reconciled with the Ex-GF who BD'd me.

[Ready2Change]

IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having....I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.

You are at a point in the process that is very similar to dating a new person. As the man, embrace your role to lead.

Covid is opening up things. I went and saw live music this past weekend. If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready.

At some point, you can say something along the lines of this:

"I am planning on going to this place to see this band. If you would like to join me, I will arrange for a sitter."

Body language, tone, eye contact, flirting are all important during this.

It is a negotiation between two people.

[BL42]

CWarrior,

BL42's wife IMHO is more WAS than WW. She indicated she was done and wanted a divorce--THEN bought lacy underwear and went onto Bumble. She was actively pushing the D. She ended a relationship that wasn't working. A nuance here is a WAS often has less to be remorseful about than a WW, sometimes less than the LBS.

Not sure it changes anything for mako, but believe you've mixed up stories. For me BD was two weeks after a nice family vacation with the kids and I immediately found out there was at least an EA and possibly PA, then confirmed a PA, and (now) Ex-W went on to OM2 before moving out and filing for D. Don't believe she was ever on Bumble - I was referring to mako's W in that he knew she was doing online dating and had finalized an agreement but his W backed off filing and putting the house on the market, and at least claimed to stop using dating apps.

Completely agree on both parties need to want R and put in the work though. I just get the sense mako's W while backing off the D a bit (and possibly the dating) isn't necessarily "all-in" either on putting in the work for R. The concern this forum typically has is she just might be biding her time until finding a new option rather than actually want to R.

IMO any time there is a reconciliation the WWs needs to EARN another chance with the LBS. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having....I do not envy MAKO because you are in a really tough spot right now.

You are at a point in the process that is very similar to dating a new person. As the man, embrace your role to lead.

Covid is opening up things. I went and saw live music this past weekend. If I was in your shoes, I would find something that would be light and fun with food and music. Someplace you could go by yourself or with her. Plan on going by yourself, but make room for her to join. Have a sitter ready.

At some point, you can say something along the lines of this:

"I am planning on going to this place to see this band. If you would like to join me, I will arrange for a sitter."

Body language, tone, eye contact, flirting are all important during this.

It is a negotiation between two people.

I like R2C's idea of lining up some music, food, and fun (or whatever fits your interests) without expectations and be flirty and offer her to join. Worse case, you enjoy your night even if it's alone.

To LH's point, it should be her equally seeking out those things with you if she really wants to R. Until she's doing those things it isn't real.

Thanks LH and CW. I am thinking something small. Like BL said, it's kind of a no-win situation where no matter what I do it could be spun as a negative, but that's on her not on me. So I will do something little to acknowledge the day because I want to, but will not plan on anything more. Living and acting with no expectations right now.

That's the key - go out and fun fun regardless and if she joins you it's gravy.

So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting.

Limbo is difficult. Because you want the marriage to work and don't want the family to break up you can't pull the chord while she's half in.

Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her.

Completely hear you on not having to split time with the kids - that is a plus. And trust me, I empathize with you on the monthly child support...it's the next 15-18 years for me! Not a fun check to write.

At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.

Yep. The longer she waits to actually start trying (if she ever does) the more you'll get bitter and the less you'll want to.

[Traveler]

@BL42, lol, I meant to write “mako” not “BL42”. Your sitch is very, very different! Cheers, mate.

[SteveLW]

Yeah, I appreciated the back and forth from a lot of experienced DBers. A lot of good thoughts even though not everyone was in agreement.

Good to hear. I worry about when debates like that break out in poster's threads that it isn't really helping the poster. While we are all here to espouse MWD's methods, each of our unique experiences colors our perspective. It is always a good tactic, I believe, to go back to a poster's own threads to determine why they may see something differently than someone else. I know there are posters here whom, due to the advice they give, I go read their own sitch and try to empathize with what they went through and why they advise the way that they do. Often times in these types of debates, neither side can see the other's and that sometimes let's it get more contentious than it otherwise might. So I am glad you found value in it!

You are right, we were basically done, the separation agreement was done, we were both going to have a final attorney review and then file. We had an appointment with a realtor to list the house, I had an appointment to look at new places to live...this was a last minute change. She is certainly not attempting to date right now but I am not really clear what her thoughts are about anything and there aren't really any actions I can see. So she said she is back in, but that's about it.

mako, by BD the WAS is usually basically done. This is one thing that LBSs struggle with. They think the situation started on BD, because that is when it started for them. It is pretty well documented that most WAS have been noodling on the idea of blowing things up for up to 2 years before BD! I understand that your sitch, post BD, had moved on towards separation and D becoming a reality, but she had likely been on that journey for a very longtime prior to BD. The point I am making is that if it took her that long to get to that point, it could take equally long to come back the other direction. WASs tend to be more like ships than zero-turn mowers. Rarely do they turn away from their "I want a D!" pronouncement quickly. My sitch had a relatively fast turnaround, but it was till months, not days for it to happen.

So yeah, I am in limbo, either until she decides what she wants to do or until I decide I'm tired of waiting. Limbo is good in some ways, bad in some ways. Like you said it stops the bleeding, stops the race toward D, and gives us some time to see if this is going to work. I am interested in this working out if all possible, there are a number of advantages to not divorcing that really have nothing to do with her personally. My family stays together, I don't have to split time with my kids, I don't have to move, I don't lose a huge percentage of my savings, I don't have $2000+ monthly child support for the next 14 years. And you know, I married her for a reason, I like her, we get along, I like spending time with her. At the same time limbo isn't really positive, it's just neutral and I don't want to stay here forever, so if she isn't going to take some steps to improve things then that tells me she isn't serious about this, and that causes me to like her less, and it simply isn't going to work.

I like the attitude here. It shows that you have the patience to give her the time to work out her own stuff. I think you put a "1 year past BD" drop-dead date on your sitch previously, and I applaud that. I think it is important for the LBS to have an end goal in mind. I'd say 1 year past BD is the minimum a LBS should give it, but it is up to the individual LBS to decide how long they should wait. I agree that you should be looking for actions on her part that shows she is working on improvements, but remember, her saying she was back was a very early initial step. Remember, ship! At that point she started to turn the ship around (maybe), you have to give it the time it will need for her to complete that turnaround. In the meantime, you know what you need to do: DB!

We are here to support, mako!