She's Gone Again - 10 Years On

[Traveler]

Hi Smile, if I'm reading correctly your STBXW has a habit of exit affairs, not just for closure but also because she can't tolerate being alone. You know this because that's how you two got together in the first place. The last time this happened you say she and her affair partner didn't work out, and she returned home.

She has stolen money from the saving account just after leaving.

If it's theft, report it to the police. In America, you might feel angry, but this would not be theft. A joint account is both peoples' property and, in a divorce settlement, both spouses would get an equal share. I point this out because sometimes we're quick to attribute someone's actions as villainy after a breakup.

I'm on the verge of giving her that wish as I promised I would if that's what she wanted and didn't come back home.

Making ultimatums and then not keeping them is a weak behavior that reduces her trust in your words. I'd still value WHAT YOU WANT more than A PROMISE TO A CHEATER. Since you asked if there's hope, I assume you are not certain you want a divorce. Opt for boundaries instead of ultimatums in the future. Since a boundary controls your behavior, not hers, they rarely require an advance announcement. That's a good litmus test for Boundaries vs. Ultimatums. There's a thread on the topic here with more info.

Is there any hope for resolution seeing as this is the second time around Bearing in mind we were good for 10 years and I thought there was no issue.

The biggest red flag to me is you say you thought there was "no issue". I was shocked my XGF walked out on me, and my XW was shocked I walked out on her, but in both cases issues had been expressed. It's hard to imagine an issue-free relationship. It's easier to imagine one where one or both parties give up on expressing issues and allow resentment to build. When did this "no issue" period begin? What were her issues just before it began? Why did you both stop talking about and working on those issues?

When she last split, what were her issues, and what 180s did you make? Did you keep-up with those?

When she last split, did you GAL, and did you keep-up with those friends/habits you built?

Did intimacy stop or slow significantly? It doesn't always, but this is often a good indicator of problems. If physical intimacy was always poor, this can also point to a 180 or moving on, depending on the cause.

OBVIOUSLY, she is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the demise of the relationship, and she's the one having a 3rd exit affair. If there was never any warning she was unhappy, even after therapy last time, imho the hope for a faithful relationship seems dimmer, even if you two reconcile.

[smilie]

smilie, you have a leg up on a lot of LBSs as you've read DR and been through this before. So you should already know what you should be doing. That you need to back off and give the WAS space. That you need to focus on yourself. That you need to prepare yourself for either eventuality (that she comes back or she doesn't). I am assuming that since you are looking for a "resolution" that you are open to her coming back? (I ask because for some LBSs a PA is a dealbreaker and the LBS is not interested in reconciliation after a PA has occurred.)

Yes I am aware to work on myself and GAL. I previously had to keep in contact as she left with paperwork to sort out, and I needed the satnav which she had in her car, so we had to talk. NC now for a week, although she is waiting for me to respond to an email to agree a date when she can come and collect her belongings.

Not sure about wanting her back at this stage, as I am more certain now that she lied at marriage counselling 9 years ago and said that she wasn't having a PA. On and off she was gone for 9 months. This time she left, her behaviour was 100% the same as previously with the exception that she didn't take ANY belongings with her. So I'm thinking that the last 10 years has been built on the lie that she wasn't having an affair before. She fooled me and the counsellor if this is the case.

If she was having an affair 10+ years ago (which I think I am accurate on) is it the same person now and how long has it been going on for. Or, if it is not the same person, how many affairs has she had in the past 10 years where she hasn't wanted to set up life with the OM?

Not sure if I can get my head round that {if} she had an affair inside of a year of us being married, and this entire 10 years since has been living a lie, and she has no admitted and affair that I don't know how long it has been going on....I am not sure if I can come back from that as this, to me, is the ultimate betrayal, let alone the depth and longevity of the lies and deceit.

[smilie]

smilie, if I can get a tad personal, I feel like maybe there are some self-esteem issues involved on your end? You mention your job state 10 years ago, and then you mention your health now. I hope you aren't blaming yourself for that. When LBSs start to take too much blame for things outside of their control, I like to remind them of the vows their WAS committed to on their wedding day. Things like: For better or worse (job situations), in sickness and in health (illnesses), forsaking all others til death do us part.

Oh yes, I think my self-esteem has been diminishing over the 7 year period that I have been struggling with this condition. I took my vows seriously. It would appear that she wasn't so committed, if she did have an affair inside of a year of being married and if she wasn't prepared to discuss any issues. I wonder, from her point of view, what would have been the point in getting married? The day? The dress? The attention? Or did she convince herself that she was committed? All I know if that our "Wedding Night" was a 'dead bedroom' (if you get my drift) and we didn't seal the deal until on honeymoon some 3 days later. I always thought that was a bit strange also.

[smilie]

What I notice a lot (happened with some very close friends of my W's and mine years ago) is that the WAS uses the hard times as an excuse for stepping outside of the marriage. It isn't that the affair happened because of job situations or illness, but those things are used as an excuse for the affair after the fact. Your WAW is saying that isn't the case, and that she doesn't know why. So at least she isn't falling into that trap. But out of everything she is saying, she doesn't know why is probably the closest thing to the truth you will get from her right now! Waywards often do not know why they are doing what they are doing, they do it because it is what their feeligns are driving them to do.

She did fall into that trap last time though and it wouldn't surprise me if she is telling everybody else that this is what it is, and telling me a different story. My last girlfriend did this making her family believe that I was some bully-boy boyfriend who threatened to beat her up. She was a true psycho and it was her that was violent, not I. Why do {some} women need to make others believe a lie about somebody else?

I get that they don't know and ride on their feelings, but where is their conscience in all of this? Why are they prepared to discard their marriage and relationship without a second thought or without thought of consequences? The W is prepared to throw me under the bus, make me financially destitute and prepared for me to be homeless. I can't get my head around that as I would never be able to do that to anybody, especially when there has been no violence or threat in the relationship.

Sorry, there seems to be a lot of why's coming out of my fingertips! :-)

[smilie]

Do you think she may have had an affair 10 years ago as well? What does your gut tell you?

My gut tells me yes, it always has. However this was the first thing that I needed to be honestly answered a soon as we had counselling and prior to any other discussions talking place. She promised me (and the counsellor) multiple times as I was persistent, that there was nobody else involved. For some reason I just accepted this, but never believed it. I should have trusted my gut back then and now I can see it so clearly, together with her behaviour and what she did 10 years back. I can remember it like it was yesterday again.

I ask because occasionally we see sitches here where the WAS just has a penchant for cheating. As a TV psychologist I admire likes to say, relevant past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I know sometimes our love for someone blinds us to their faults, but maybe this is who she is? Just a thought.

The good news is that none of that changes what you should be doing. Which I spoke to in my first post, and that you are well versed in having read DR.

Perhaps she is just a cheat, however we have always spent a lot of time together doing things together. It has amazed me how she has fitted in an affair. The only way she could have done this is to take days off work without me knowing. I kept saying to her that I am aware that she hasn't taken any days off work and that she needs to have a break. Huh! Unbenown to me, she was, more than likely! Days off with the OM and only a 15 minute walk from her office to home. I could have gone down to her work at any point and met her for lunch and found that she wasn't there. But that never happened and I can't work out how she has done this.

[smilie]

Hi Smile, if I'm reading correctly your STBXW has a habit of exit affairs, not just for closure but also because she can't tolerate being alone. You know this because that's how you two got together in the first place. The last time this happened you say she and her affair partner didn't work out, and she returned home.

You are right here as far as exit affairs are concerned. Yes this is how we got together and she has never lived alone in her life, went from Home -> BF1 -> BF2 -> BF3 -> Me -> OM. It was my assumption that her PA didn't work out, as I didn't know if she was having an affair at the time, but it would be logical this is what happened.

If it's theft, report it to the police. In America, you might feel angry, but this would not be theft. A joint account is both peoples' property and, in a divorce settlement, both spouses would get an equal share. I point this out because sometimes we're quick to attribute someone's actions as villainy after a breakup.

My lawyer is on it and will be requesting that the balance of the monies that were not evenly distributed, be paid back. I get your point about villainy and there has been considerable potential fraudulent behaviour that I am waiting on, such as setting up a joint account 3 weeks prior to leaving and trigger and pension lump sum payment to that account and potentially supply 'certified copies' of my personal documents without my knowledge. This may not be the case and may be jumping to conclusions. Seeing as she is a lawyer, if she has done this then it will be fraudulent behaviour. I am waiting to hear back from the pension company who have opened a case to retrieve all documents submitted. I sincerely hope that I am wrong on this.

There is also about £7-8k that needs to be accounted for.

Making ultimatums and then not keeping them is a weak behavior that reduces her trust in your words. I'd still value WHAT YOU WANT more than A PROMISE TO A CHEATER. Since you asked if there's hope, I assume you are not certain you want a divorce. Opt for boundaries instead of ultimatums in the future. Since a boundary controls your behavior, not hers, they rarely require an advance announcement. That's a good litmus test for Boundaries vs. Ultimatums.

I wasn't aware that this was an ultimatum, bearing in mind that it was an agreed boundary that was set during one of our counselling sessions 9 years back. The boundary was that if she goes again without any conversation or hint that anything was wrong, then she would basically be showing me that she no longer wanted the relationship and therefore I would give her what she wanted.

I suppose it does sound like and ultimatum as I type it, but this was what was agreed between us back then

The biggest red flag to me is you say you thought there was "no issue". I was shocked my XGF walked out on me, and my XW was shocked I walked out on her, but in both cases issues had been expressed. It's hard to imagine an issue-free relationship. It's easier to imagine one where one or both parties give up on expressing issues and allow resentment to build. When did this "no issue" period begin? What were her issues just before it began? Why did you both stop talking about and working on those issues?

Seriously, no issues have been expressed by her ever in the 10 years since last time. Right up until the day before she left when I got wind that she was going to run again, we were living as a happy married couple. Sharing a bed, holding hands (outside and indoors), kissing, being affectionate and talking about our plans for the future.

With WAW I am aware that they typically do nag and complain. Nothing. It is exactly like SAS (Spousal Abandonment Syndrome), where no complaints are made, everything seems normal until such time as they go without word or warning.

When she last split, what were her issues, and what 180s did you make? Did you keep-up with those?

180's last time: become more independent, spend time at the gym, do my own stuff rather than always do stuff with her - can't remember the rest. i haven't kept up with them as 3.5 year after we got back together I had a severe vertigo attack that changed my life and the dizziness has never gone, which I why I cannot work. So once again I have fallen back to depend on her and allow her to be in control over everything, simple because I was too ill for about 5 years when it was really bad.

When she last split, did you GAL, and did you keep-up with those friends/habits you built?

I did for a while until I got taken ill. One of the guys at the gym I was friendly with got killed in a motorbike accident. After that and becuase I wasn't very well al of the time, I stayed at home a lot and made my W the centre of my world again. Silly me.

Did intimacy stop or slow significantly? It doesn't always, but this is often a good indicator of problems. If physical intimacy was always poor, this can also point to a 180 or moving on, depending on the cause.

Yes it has. It hasn't been the same since we got back together. Went through stages, but never the same and very infrequent. Also add to the mix that I was dizzy a lot of the time and was suffering from chronic fatigue, so in the bedroom I was asleep in minutes! This was not always the case though and we went through a stage of regularity. Never overly passionate thought like it was prior to the first time she left home.

She has never really done anything to spice it up. Since we moved sex has been almost non-existent. Maybe once a month or so. Recently she has just read her Kindle as soon as she got in bed - exactly the same behaviour as 10 years back.

OBVIOUSLY, she is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the demise of the relationship, and she's the one having a 3rd exit affair. If there was never any warning she was unhappy, even after therapy last time, imho the hope for a faithful relationship seems dimmer, even if you two reconcile.

I'm not being dismissive, but there was absolutely no warning in the slightest. I don't think there will be much scope for rebuilding the relationship. It would be good to see what happens from this point on though. I would be interested in what she does after receiving the letter from my lawyer - not threatening divorce - but paving the way forward for financial support, returning monies that were taken and answering some important questions for transparency. We'll see and I'm seriously not expecting anything apart from her wanting a D, but it seems strange that she stated this is what she wanted within 2 weeks of leaving, but she hasn't acted on what she said she was going to do - get her lawyer to send me a letter detailing her intentions going forward.

Thanks for your questions. They highlight that I didn't keep up the work as I had a serious health challenge and i still have to a large extent, that makes each day a personal challenge. I should have re-read MWD DR book again. But NEVER was there any verbal or behavioural indication in 10 years that there was an issue.

[SteveLW]

Do you think she may have had an affair 10 years ago as well? What does your gut tell you?

My gut tells me yes, it always has. However this was the first thing that I needed to be honestly answered a soon as we had counselling and prior to any other discussions talking place. She promised me (and the counsellor) multiple times as I was persistent, that there was nobody else involved. For some reason I just accepted this, but never believed it. I should have trusted my gut back then and now I can see it so clearly, together with her behaviour and what she did 10 years back. I can remember it like it was yesterday again.

I ask because occasionally we see sitches here where the WAS just has a penchant for cheating. As a TV psychologist I admire likes to say, relevant past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I know sometimes our love for someone blinds us to their faults, but maybe this is who she is? Just a thought.

The good news is that none of that changes what you should be doing. Which I spoke to in my first post, and that you are well versed in having read DR.

Perhaps she is just a cheat, however we have always spent a lot of time together doing things together. It has amazed me how she has fitted in an affair. The only way she could have done this is to take days off work without me knowing. I kept saying to her that I am aware that she hasn't taken any days off work and that she needs to have a break. Huh! Unbenown to me, she was, more than likely! Days off with the OM and only a 15 minute walk from her office to home. I could have gone down to her work at any point and met her for lunch and found that she wasn't there. But that never happened and I can't work out how she has done this.

I have a former friend that cheated on her husband. One thing she told me once was that a cheater will go to extreme lengths to meet the affair partner. She admitted to going to get groceries, meeting get AP in the parking lot, having sex, then going into the store to shop for get family.

Then there is a couple friend from years ago, where he found out her "business trips" and trips for conferences were actually vacations with her AP. The point is, as you've realized, a cheater will find a way.

[smilie]

The point is, as you've realized, a cheater will find a way.

And of course, I remember this from when she was seeing me while living with her boyfriend. I just can't get after 19 yeas of being together, that she is sill like this. Why get married if you're not serious about it? She has never wanted kids either, more career-focused. It makes me feel sick just thinking about it. These bloomin' panic attacks are awful.

[MrBrside]

bearing in mind that it was an agreed boundary that was set during one of our counselling sessions 9 years back. The boundary was that if she goes again without any conversation or hint that anything was wrong, then she would basically be showing me that she no longer wanted the relationship and therefore I would give her what she wanted.

Hi Smilie,

anything you agree on is irrelivant. You can't control her, so just because she agrees something, doesnt mean she will respect / stick to it - as you are finding out.

Anything a WW says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

You saw what kind of person your WW was when you met - She was prepared to leave another lover for you - this in my eyes shows she doesnt respect boundaries - You ignored that red flag, and now its come full circle.

I know how you feel - because i ignored the same red flag with my WW ( she didnt leave a guy for me, but i found out approx 3 months into our relationship that 12 months prior to me, she had seen a married / engaged guy )

Seriously, no issues have been expressed by her ever in the 10 years since last time. Right up until the day before she left when I got wind that she was going to run again, we were living as a happy married couple. Sharing a bed, holding hands (outside and indoors), kissing, being affectionate and talking about our plans for the future.

Word of advice - dont try to figure this out. You will go crazy .

My WW was talking about another child days before she started flirting with a guy she met on a night out !.

There was probably resentment there - maybe a lack of respect - frustrations you werent aware of.

The OM came along and pressed the right buttons at the right time and wham - with her non existant boundaries for right and wrong ( which you knew about from previous cheating ) she is gone.

Don't spend time trying to establish would haves and could haves - Just focus on you.

[smilie]

You saw what kind of person your WW was when you met - She was prepared to leave another lover for you - this in my eyes shows she doesnt respect boundaries - You ignored that red flag, and now its come full circle.

Isn't it strange how, at the time, you don't see it as a red flag? I waited 8 years before getting married just to be sure - obviously time doesn't mean a thing and doesn't change their behaviour.

Word of advice - dont try to figure this out. You will go crazy .

Yep. Finding that one out! I'm a logical thinker and it certainly doesn't fit into that model.

My WW was talking about another child days before she started flirting with a guy she met on a night out !.

Blimey! And there's me thinking that discussing what our plans were for the rest of the year were significant.

The OM came along and pressed the right buttons at the right time and wham - with her non existant boundaries for right and wrong ( which you knew about from previous cheating ) she is gone.

That's just mad. This is why I cannot understand why she got married. If he wasn't going to respect boundaries, our marriage or me, then why do it? It totally baffles me - goes back to that driving me crazy part again, I suppose and not trying to work it out.

Don't spend time trying to establish would haves and could haves - Just focus on you.

I shall as best I can. It is hard with having this awful neurological condition as it makes doing things and all this stuff much harder. Even though she said it's not, perhaps me not being well is the resentment. Something I can't control.