5 years pieced & COVID SIP has silver linings

[LH19]

I can't believe I'm letting myself get dragged into a conversation with LH, but:

My response to that was " in what world is that progress".

Alison had posted about a very difficult situation and behaviors from her H that she'd been struggling with for a long time. The progress she noted was not in/re those behaviors with her husband, but the fact that his relationship with their eldest child was much, much improved. This was LH's response:

WTF you women on here driving me fuching nuts. In what world do live in when the most important person in your life other then you kids verbally assaults until you’re in tears and it is viewed as progress????????

She never returned. You can make excuses and absolve yourself of responsibility all you want, but the fact is that a woman came here for support and advice, and after you posted this she never came back. And, she'd been a very regular poster on her own thread for a long time and helped many of us here as well. She was the absolute best at explaining boundaries and for any newbies out there, I strongly recommend reading her posts on my thread regarding boundaries (especially last summer) if you need help in this area. (I suspect LH crossed a boundary with her and she decided there was no reason to subject herself to this BS anymore.)

Note-- I'm not turning this into a debate (no need to say anything, LH, as I won't respond) and I apologize to Blu for even typing this. I just feel so strongly that the negative tone and bullying is actually damaging and driving people in need away, not just slowing down the board.

OB-- since I think you're talking about me dropping off, I will tell you that I was a regular poster for a lot of months and tried my very best to fight against the negativity by being positive and trying to offer- when I thought it made sense-- an alternative perspective. I think what JJ is talking about is that anytime posters recommend anything BUT kicking your LBS to the curb and maybe they'll come back after many years, or if your WS is waffling tell them to commit NOW or GTFO, we are put down. In my case, my educational background was thrown in my face and my spouse (and choice to stay with him) ridiculed. And on top of it I was gaslit, being accused of trying to control what others are posting when I was very careful and clear to state that we simply weren't all on the same page on advice and there were alternative perspectives that deserved to be heard. I don't understand why there is such venom and anger towards advising patience and being open to the potential of positive growth within your spouse and your R. And it wasn't just that final straw-- it had been happening at one level or another pretty much anytime I posted anything that didn't adhere to the current standard of "move on".

The posters that preach D here are creating their own echo chamber, maybe to reinforce their own choices and to reassure themselves that theirs is the only way. And if you're looking for an example of a poster who didn't R but is saying that the board has turned negative, AnotherStander (an incredible vet who has helped probably thousands of LBSs, including me) said it himself a few posts above.

What all of us in piecing are sharing is that we are still struggling with various things. For me, I'm struggling enough with trust that being ridiculed for taking my H back, or having my advice to a poster to give a situation some time rather than kicking their waffling S out immediately being derided as only delaying the inevitable... it isn't good for my own healing or mental health to get those kind of attacks. I'd like to stay engaged and help people the way that others have helped me. But I really needed a break. If I do come back more regularly, I simply won't engage with the bullies anymore. And it does sound like getting the piecing board moving could help those of us in piecing connect and not cloud the issues for newbies.

IMHO, another lens on what JJ is saying--advice given to you may not have been any different that advice given to him, because DB-ing isn't about your spouse. It is all about you! You have zero control over your WS's actions. You do have control over your own. You can focus on yourself, practice 180s, and drop the rope no matter what your WS is doing-- off in fantasyland with AP or sharing your home. Different paths have different complications, and different people have different abilities to handle the difficulties of each scenario, so you'll see suggestions based on helping each LBS figure out FOR THEMSELVES what their own values and boundaries are, and come to their own decision of how they want to proceed. It might mean moving out and filing for divorce. It might mean waiting for some length of time while GALing and working on yourself. I'm glad you're growing-- that's great. Whether our spouses come back or not, DB-ing is for you.

CW-- so great to hear from you. I'll say hello over on your thread.

Wow May it’s great to have you back. As I stated I posted out of emotion and should have handled it better. My father use to do that to my mother a lot so it strikes a cord with me. I will be cognizant of that in the future.

[joejoe1]

May summed up my thoughts perfectly. Thanks May.

Only, I use to post regularly. I also use to keep up with and provide comments to a lot of threads. But over time, I started to relive my situation over and over again, when reading other's trauma. Reading certain situations over and over again, was having an impact on my healing. I had to step away. I also would provide a comment and have so much going on where I couldn't commit to the posters like I wanted to. So I decided, to take a step back from posting and reading each situation.

I have been here since 2017 and there were way more posters when I first got here and way more traffic, it was a constant different posters showing up everyday, and that trend continued until probably the beginning of 2019. I was involved in a lot of posters threads. To the point, I would go to bed dreaming about their situations. And wake up reading to read all the updates. It was addicting. Not healthy, IMO.

And my perspective about the tone on the forum now is based off of my experience with the forum when I first arrived here. It has nothing to do with my Recon. I don't understand that correlation at all. The Vets when I first got here had a very nurturing tone, that were still 2x4s. AS, 25, Sandi all had a way of giving great advice without advocating for making lasting decisions.

25 called me out for being a bad husband, and how my wife affair wasn't the only problem we had in our Marriage. She kept me grounded in the reality of where I stood in the devastation of my failed marriage. That took me out the mode of just blaming my wife and looking at myself for the man I was, the husband I was, and the father, friend, son, and brother I was. When I looked back, I wasn't a very good husband, father, friend, brother or son. I treated my wife like crap, before she decided to quit our Marriage. Before 25 start giving me advice, I put all the blame on my Wife and her affair. But that was not reality. My wife was fast steam ahead with her AP, telling me she loved him. I could of just went and got a lawyer and started D. Which I asked a few times here, and I went and talked to a few lawyers. But with the advice from AS (who was Divorced), 25 (who was Divorced), Chuck, Sandi and many others they kept me patient and focused on myself.

So, the notion that we should being staying around to fix the tone if we don't like it, I have contributed a lot, and I would love to contribute more, but this board/forum is about healthy healing and community IMO, and I just think it has went away from that. And, if I can't commit to a poster, I don't want to be jumping in and out of their situation providing advice that's short sighted. I have done that to a few posters, and when I went back and read my comments, I felt horrible.

Onward and forward

[Traveler]

. As I stated I posted out of emotion and should have handled it better. My father use to do that to my mother a lot so it strikes a cord with me. I will be cognizant of that in the future.

LH, you obviously donate a LOT of time attempting to help others here. Props for that. There's another thread just now on forgiveness. I know I have not forgiven my father, and hold out hope someday a Russian space station's toilet seat will fall to Earth and land on his head. Maybe that's an angle to consider to lessen triggers? Forgiveness, not negotiating with Russian Cosmonauts to make the above happen.

[wayfarer]

And my perspective about the tone on the forum now is based off of my experience with the forum when I first arrived here. It has nothing to do with my Recon. I don't understand that correlation at all. The Vets when I first got here had a very nurturing tone, that were still 2x4s. AS, 25, Sandi all had a way of giving great advice without advocating for making lasting decisions.

I discovered this digging and digging through old threads. And like a year ago when I started brining up how negative the tone is getting, how 2x4s are seeming like bricks dropped from a 15 story building, how there's far too much commenting about how a person, particularly LBH's, will be deemed as weak or beta if they are just patient or take their time making a big decision, how all WS/WAS are being framed as abusers/sociopaths/narcissists/horrible irredeemable people and that all LBS are saints that should just leave I was met with "well I don't think that's true."

I started lurking in early Dec 2019 and joined after that. I was literally one of the people who was told repeatedly to just kick my husband out even though I had stated repeatedly this isn't me being a doormat this is me keeping my step-daughter out of the fray and off the street. This is me taking my time to decide what I really want. That I couldn't legally. That push back was good for me. Getting me agitated brings up recessed thoughts and gut feelings. I function best fueled by anger. But I watched a lot of newbies get torn to pieces trying to just right the ship and maintain some balance in the sh!tstorm of their life with the exact same kind of pushing.

25 called me out for being a bad husband, and how my wife affair wasn't the only problem we had in our Marriage. She kept me grounded in the reality of where I stood in the devastation of my failed marriage. That took me out the mode of just blaming my wife and looking at myself for the man I was, the husband I was, and the father, friend, son, and brother I was. When I looked back, I wasn't a very good husband, father, friend, brother or son. I treated my wife like crap, before she decided to quit our Marriage. Before 25 start giving me advice, I put all the blame on my Wife and her affair. But that was not reality. My wife was fast steam ahead with her AP, telling me she loved him. I could of just went and got a lawyer and started D. Which I asked a few times here, and I went and talked to a few lawyers. But with the advice from AS (who was Divorced), 25 (who was Divorced), Chuck, Sandi and many others they kept me patient and focused on myself.

This is my other qualm about the negative tone. I watched a lot of LBH's really crappy behavior go completely unchecked and then they'd be poured on with adulation when they would say or do not great things as long is it meant they stood their ground or took one more step closer to D. I can say that CW and SteveLW are excluded from that. They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative. I would completely ignore LBH posts for huge chunks of time because the advice around these guys who very seriously need to get their control issues and aggressive, manipulative behaviors under control was frankly scary to me. My personal opinions on the gender politics around here are what they are. I get not everyone sees the world as I do, but if you prescribe to those notions that women and men attract mates in a gender specific way then you have to accept the converse of the same information. Which is men and women cheat for very different reasons. That theory says women cheat mostly because they are desperate for an emotional connection or to feel desired. Typically because they've been emotionally bankrupted by their husbands. Totally ignoring the fact that that man has responsibility in his MR falling apart just fuels a narrative that the WW or WAW and women are the problem. Not two people failed, maybe one more than the other, but they both failed in their MR and they both have work to do. I've gotten attacked for these opinions. Which is what ever I'm a big girl. But as a woman in the world who almost had to start dating again and having friends out in the world dating in their mid-late 30s putting more men in this world with a chip on their shoulder and zero accountability helps no one. Not the LBH. Not his immediate relations. And not the world at large. That is the opposite of healing, healthy and helpful.

So, the notion that we should being staying around to fix the tone if we don't like it, I have contributed a lot, and I would love to contribute more, but this board/forum is about healthy healing and community IMO, and I just think it has went away from that.

This is exactly the fight I have with myself regularly. Do I stay to offer perspective with contrary opinions that align with my world view to support adjusting the tone and subject myself to personal attacks? In doing so I'm wasting time I could've spent on myself, my family or other posters because now I have to stand up for my self and defend my opinion. Or do I say thank you for what this place has done for me and walk away so I can feel happy, healthy and healed? No time lost. But no help offered.

[SteveLW]

I can say that CW and SteveLW are excluded from that. They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative.

Unfortunately, I can recognize that in other LBHs because I was that guy.

I am 76.333% better on that front these days. I still work at it, daily and check myself. It is a work in progress.

[Spiral]

Don't sell yourself short, SteveLW. You're 85.333% better. As for the new posters, I do think that new posters would benefit from hearing the perspectives of both genders, particularly for those who have a better chance to turn things around. I certainly agree with many of the things wayfarer wrote.

[Ginger1]

May, I don’t think anyone here “preaches” divorce.

There are situations that are toxic and very unhealthy which can be damaging to the LBS and the kids, and in that situation, I think that’s where divorce is, as you say “preached”

Everyone came here to fix a marriage. Some people did so much self work that found their marriages were only going to be detrimental to them if the WAS didn’t work on themselves. Some people had very strong boundaries. And others had very weak ones. And those who had weak boundaries might have been more tolerating of poor behavior because of fear.

And I know from the beginning of time here, as long as it isn’t an abusive, toxic situation and there are strong boundaries and BOTH parties are committed to the piecing of the marriage, NO ONE preaches divorce .

[MLCxH]

May, I don’t think anyone here “preaches” divorce.

There are situations that are toxic and very unhealthy which can be damaging to the LBS and the kids, and in that situation, I think that’s where divorce is, as you say “preached”

Everyone came here to fix a marriage. Some people did so much self work that found their marriages were only going to be detrimental to them if the WAS didn’t work on themselves. Some people had very strong boundaries. And others had very weak ones. And those who had weak boundaries might have been more tolerating of poor behavior because of fear.

And I know from the beginning of time here, as long as it isn’t an abusive, toxic situation and there are strong boundaries and BOTH parties are committed to the piecing of the marriage, NO ONE preaches divorce .

Ginger explained this well. I have seen people give advice to stand up for themselves and stop being pushed around but I don't think I recall people preaching D. I have seen people push others to get out of limbo and move forward. These are probably areas where posters can be more cautious or understanding because even though their intentions are good a push out of limbo can indirectly be a push towards D.

[Eagle3]

What all of us in piecing are sharing is that we are still struggling with various things. For me, I'm struggling enough with trust that being ridiculed for taking my H back, or having my advice to a poster to give a situation some time rather than kicking their waffling S out immediately being derided as only delaying the inevitable... it isn't good for my own healing or mental health to get those kind of attacks. I'd like to stay engaged and help people the way that others have helped me. But I really needed a break. If I do come back more regularly, I simply won't engage with the bullies anymore. And it does sound like getting the piecing board moving could help those of us in piecing connect and not cloud the issues for newbies.

To everyone who has posted here on blu's thread in recent days, and as May indicates above:

I think many of us would love for you to come back and share your advice and your experiences with the rest of us.

Yes, there will always be people who don't mean well, or who have gone through too much pain and trauma that causes them to completely misinterpret and hurt other people. They must indeed either be corrected, or simply ignored so that they can learn from their mistakes and heal.

But please think about all the other people who appreciate your help and insight.

Trust me, there's a lot more of them.

So, when you're ready, just go for it, we'll be incredibly grateful to you all! xxx

[OnlyBent]

They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative. I would completely ignore LBH posts for huge chunks of time because the advice around these guys who very seriously need to get their control issues and aggressive, manipulative behaviors under control was frankly scary to me. My personal opinions on the gender politics around here are what they are. I get not everyone sees the world as I do, but if you prescribe to those notions that women and men attract mates in a gender specific way then you have to accept the converse of the same information. Which is men and women cheat for very different reasons. That theory says women cheat mostly because they are desperate for an emotional connection or to feel desired. Typically because they've been emotionally bankrupted by their husbands. Totally ignoring the fact that that man has responsibility in his MR falling apart just fuels a narrative that the WW or WAW and women are the problem. Not two people failed, maybe one more than the other, but they both failed in their MR and they both have work to do. I've gotten attacked for these opinions. Which is what ever I'm a big girl. But as a woman in the world who almost had to start dating again and having friends out in the world dating in their mid-late 30s putting more men in this world with a chip on their shoulder and zero accountability helps no one. Not the LBH. Not his immediate relations. And not the world at large. That is the opposite of healing, healthy and helpful.

I'll be honest WF, for a while after BD I demonised and villainised by STBXW as a terrible and irredeemable person. Having done a lot of work I realise that this is not the case. Sure, she made some terrible and hurtful decisions (which no one deserves to have happen to them), but she did these things because I was, at times, a pretty ordinary H. Do I excuse her behaviours, absolutely not. But had a put more effort and time into our M, perhaps those nasty and horrible things would not have happened. I was never abusive or any of those things (unless we count silent treatment, stonewalling, that I am guilty of) but like I said, I definitely could be a sh!tty H at times. The best way to describe myself and probably a lot of LBHs here is the series of Sh!tty Husband blogs on the Must Be This Tall to Ride blog.

In a way the last 12 months are a blessing because nothing else would have rocked me hard enough to bring about the necessary changes in me that will make my life and any future R infinitely better. For this I am grateful. Thanks for this post WF, it has reminded me not to lose sight of not only where where I am but to never forget the part that I played in all of this.