Help! Need Advice please Part 2

[Artemis1]

She constantly asked him If he would call her, and he said he had no interest in calling and talking to her. Told her at least 4 times he only wanted to be friends. Thing is All i am doing is stating the facts, it doesn't mean nothing else with anybody else was goingon. I have never said that, merely stating the facts that I do Know since i know so little for sure. That is all. Something to know about me, is I am honest to a fault, thats what all my friends, family, anyone that knows me says. I am a psychology major and I also am an empath. My teachers always told me that I could debate any side of anything that has ever happened in history. Telling points of view and the facts to everything is just part of who I am. And trust me as I have had this be an issue with many people misunderstanding my need to spout all facts from all points of view, I really do understand how it seems like I am defending him.
I've never been great at just spewing my anger especially when writing/typing, it always calms me lol
I really love that everyone on here wants to make sure I'm not being naïve or foolish by letting him back in, it really does make me very happy to know how much complete strangers can care about me. I promise you I am not letting him back in right now, at all. Not even close to considering it yet.

And I am aware that he could end up not going, as it is said alot, its a waiting game, and patience, his apppointment has been set for next week, I am waiting to see if he goes.

I am not letting him back in our room, honestly Im not letting anything change right now at all.

I really am more trying to deteremine how anything progresses from here, after a month of him showing he wants to work on M, do I start being friendly towards him, when should I allow R talks, If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap, can I start it with him immediatley, or should I wait awhile? I just want to progress this correctly and not hold off if some things, like counseling would be beneficial to start now.

[SteveLW]

She constantly asked him If he would call her, and he said he had no interest in calling and talking to her. Told her at least 4 times he only wanted to be friends. Thing is All i am doing is stating the facts, it doesn't mean nothing else with anybody else was goingon. I have never said that, merely stating the facts that I do Know since i know so little for sure. That is all. Something to know about me, is I am honest to a fault, thats what all my friends, family, anyone that knows me says. I am a psychology major and I also am an empath. My teachers always told me that I could debate any side of anything that has ever happened in history. Telling points of view and the facts to everything is just part of who I am. And trust me as I have had this be an issue with many people misunderstanding my need to spout all facts from all points of view, I really do understand how it seems like I am defending him.
I've never been great at just spewing my anger especially when writing/typing, it always calms me lol
I really love that everyone on here wants to make sure I'm not being naïve or foolish by letting him back in, it really does make me very happy to know how much complete strangers can care about me. I promise you I am not letting him back in right now, at all. Not even close to considering it yet.

And I am aware that he could end up not going, as it is said alot, its a waiting game, and patience, his apppointment has been set for next week, I am waiting to see if he goes.

I am not letting him back in our room, honestly Im not letting anything change right now at all.

I really am more trying to deteremine how anything progresses from here, after a month of him showing he wants to work on M, do I start being friendly towards him, when should I allow R talks, If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap, can I start it with him immediatley, or should I wait awhile? I just want to progress this correctly and not hold off if some things, like counseling would be beneficial to start now.

My advice? Let him be the one to do the work. If he is serious about working on the M he will look for counseling to go to. Read sandi's rules, those are how you behave towards him. Friendly, engaged, happy, upbeat, fulfilled, etc. You let him set the course. If he is upbeat and happy, good. If he is sullen and withdrawn, you are upbeat and happy anyway! During our limbo I would bounce around the house, doing what I needed to do with a spring in my step, humming or whistling a tune, happy and friendly. When addressed I would give my full attention until the exchange was over, and then I would say "Okay, I need to get back to what I was doing!" in cheerful tone, then stridefully go humming and whistling on my way. If he starts a R talk, you listen and validate. Feel free to put off decisions he wants you to make. "So, should we start doing date nights?" "I'd like to think about that and get back to you." Etc.

Certainly do not be unfriendly, but remember sandi's rule about the cashier at the store.

It will come naturally, slowly and over time. No need to over think it.

As far as the rest of what you say above, I get it. Being neutral and centered is a good thing. Just remember, there is plenty of blame to go around. It isn't all his fault, and it certainly is not all your fault. In fact, he is the one that despite vows like "for better and for worse" decided to give up and pull up stakes to go elsewhere. Do not forget that. Own your trash but let him own his too.

[LH19]

A,

Definitely wait on counseling.

Just breathe and continue to GAL like a madwoman.

You can certainly be friendly towards him right now. Just do not pursue.

He is going to try to manipulate you so strength is a must right now.

[Traveler]

If we find some kind of counseling online thats cheap

When you say "we", who proposed therapy, who followed up on it, and who found the therapist?

These are not inconsequential details. I proceeded despite all the warnings not to enter MC until we were committed. In my first unsuccessful R attempt, I found the therapist after she called a couple and said nobody could see us anytime soon. I paid for therapy because it was too much, but she'd look into getting it reimbursed. Therapy consisted of her venting at me. If the therapist said I was anxious and she was avoidant, she'd repeat after the session that I was anxious. She'd ignore suggestions to bring us together, adopt suggestions taking us apart, and say it was the therapist's advice.

In my more successful R attempt "we" was "her" and in therapy, we both paid, we both got to speak, we both had homework, and we both worked on things. In fairness, it wasn't all rainbows and unicorns, and she ran out of some sessions and she vetoed some topics. At least we were both somewhat committed to working on the relationship for some period of time.

Edit: In part, we're sharing cautionary tales, because so many of us got too eager about R, lol. I love that you're taking your vacation with just you and your friends. I'm hopeful about your sitch.

[Ready2Change]

Hi Art,

Most of us here are over 40. You and your H are significantly younger than us. My kids are only a few years younger than your H.

Please correct me if needed:
Art was 20 when she had a baby son who is now 7. At age 23, Art met H who was a 19 year old virgin. Art is now 27 and H is 24 raising the 7yo. They currently live in H's fathers house(who is not currently living there), sleeping in different rooms. H's mother does not work and lives in a different house. Art's Mother lives close, but the house is full so Art can't go move there. Art bought and read DR 4 weeks ago. She has been posting here for 2 weeks. Art has a meeting setup with a lawyer to understand the legal side of things.


You are going to progress down multiple parallel paths. Preparing to move out and get divorced. (Preparing for the worst). DBing your behind off (Hoping for the best).

Read Sandi's rules daily. Keep adding new skills to your behavior. Predict the next interaction and be ready to respond in an effective way.


HUGS

[may22]

First off,

I've never been a person who thing the WS needs to come back crawling on their hands and knees through glass, beating their breast professing their undying love.

bwahahahahaha. This cracked me up. I WISH.

Here's the thing. As I see it there are two basic paths to R. The one that most folks here recommend is cutting the WS loose as soon as possible after DB. They want a D? Great, go get it. They want to ride off in the sunset with AP? Have fun. You're a horrible shrew who ruined their lives and they never really loved you anyway? Thumbs up emoji while you're off building your life back up.

Then the WS rides off into the sunset and learns that wow, things didn't all magically get better when I cut my LBS loose. The R with the AP goes south because it was all built on fantasies and lies and now you have to deal with a real relationship with another human, usually someone who is an @sshole of a person because they thought it was OK to get involved with a married person (with kids being the extra kicker for those extra-special a-holes). Slowly, the WS starts to realize that the problem wasn't in their S-- it was inside them all along. Then at some point-- maybe they hit absolute rock bottom-- they realize what a dumb@ss they are being and go back to their LBS asking (begging? ) for another chance. Many times the LBS has moved on at this point and doesn't want anything to do with their former lying, cheating partner. Other times they're open to R. But that is the basic path that most here will advocate.

Some of us took a different path which is uber difficult (though in fact is probably closer to how MWD talks about DBing in the book) and requires you to watch that sloooooooow transformation and realization in real life. Over many months. With no guarantees anything is going to actually work. You have to do very much the same thing in terms of DBing, focusing on yourself and detaching from your @hole spouse, even though you're still sharing a house. Planning for that amazing future that doesn't include him. Taking a good hard look at the parts of you that you might have lost during the M or behaviors you've picked up that are toxic and doing the hard work internally to make those changes. Spending oodles of time working on understanding your boundaries and how to enforce them. The difference between a boundary and attempting to control his behavior. Refocusing all that energy you're wasting on wondering what he is up to on your kids and really enjoying them. Stopping caring about what your WS is up to and just focusing on yourself, what brings you joy, what you want for your future regardless of the state of your M. This can be a lot harder with him in the house than if you are living on your own because you have very little leeway. WSs will breadcrumb like crazy and try with all their might to hook you back in. The dance of distance and pursuit is real. You just have to keep your head down and DB.

So... back to your sitch.... maybe this is real. Maybe not. No way to really know right now. I actually think it isn't a bad thing to be able to drop your defenses and acknowledge your own faults in the R-- I guess I don't see that interaction in the car quite the same way that others do. I agree with Steve about owning your own side of the road but not taking responsibility for his $hitty decisions-- that is 100% on him and he needs to own that his behavior was totally unacceptable. He doesn't seem there yet.

I don't think it is impossible for the WS to turn fairly quickly. My H has said numerous times to me that it came to him in a rush, the realization that he didn't want to D and didn't want to run off with AP only when he had the apartment and just needed to sign the lease. Nothing was standing in his way anymore (I was barely speaking to him) and all he had to do was this one last step and he couldn't. Maybe this was his rock bottom realization where he didn't need to actually experience it but could finally see the consequences of his decision. (I'll note here that I have protected him from the majority of the consequences excepting the need to work hard at our M and rebuild trust, etc. He didn't have to be the @sshole in front of all our friends, our children, our families. This was a choice I made with my eyes open.) That being said, I thought he had cut it off multiple times before that happened. And what WF and others say is true-- there is a real difference when you know they're in and it does takes time to see that and believe it. I'm now about 10 months out from that decision and I'd say it took a good six months before I really started to think, hey, this might be real this time. And I still am not fully trusting it TBH. This whole thing has taken a big toll on my ability to trust. Be ready for that, regardless of what happens with your H.

In the end, if you want to continue to stand which it sounds like you do, I'm here to support you. I (gasp) agree with LH 100% here:

A,

Definitely wait on counseling.

Just breathe and continue to GAL like a madwoman.

You can certainly be friendly towards him right now. Just do not pursue.

He is going to try to manipulate you so strength is a must right now.

I'd add to this-- work on detaching. Do your very very best to stop caring what he is up to. I really liked this video on Stoicism (search youtube for "you only control how you play") that helped me just focus on that which was within my control and let go of what was not. Something I think I'll need to continue to work on for the rest of my life.

Boundaries-- from reading your words I think you, like me, may have problems with boundaries. I'd read AlisonUK's thread (or, last summer she had GOLD on my thread regarding boundaries) and really spend a lot of time focusing there.

It bears repeating: DO NOT PURSUE. Just focus on yourself, observe him and what he's up to, and give yourself a few weeks before really judging if he's turning back towards you or not. MWD talks about setting small goals which I found helpful.

I purposefully did not read any piecing threads for months. I just started a couple months ago when Steve posted some links on my thread. I would highly recommend staying away from that board because what you need to do in piecing is very different from what you need to do in the thick of your sitch and you, my dear, are still very much in the thick of it. Patience is going to be your best friend here.

Good luck!

[BL42]

Definitely wait on counseling.

When you say "we", who proposed therapy, who followed up on it, and who found the therapist?

These are not inconsequential details. I proceeded despite all the warnings not to enter MC until we were committed. In my first unsuccessful R attempt, I found the therapist after she called a couple and said nobody could see us anytime soon. I paid for therapy because it was too much, but she'd look into getting it reimbursed. Therapy consisted of her venting at me. If the therapist said I was anxious and she was avoidant, she'd repeat after the session that I was anxious. She'd ignore suggestions to bring us together, adopt suggestions taking us apart, and say it was the therapist's advice.

At BD I assumed because my Ex-W and I didn't have any "major problems" and that counseling would easily fix the small issues we did have. However, she told me she did not have any desire to put the smallest bit of effort into working on the relationship and refused to go to counseling for months. Finally, she told me her IC gave her a referral but it'd have to wait until after COVID because she wouldn't do start any MC virtually (even though she was in IC virtually). She gave me the counselor's info and I eagerly pursued appointments thinking "we could get through this" and it would help. Finally she agreed to do Zoom calls and it took all but 3 sessions. The first she mostly complained about me and I listened and validated, the second I raised the issue of the affair which she admitted and and the counselor told us the marriage would never work if the A was active because the A is a fantasy and marriage can't compare to that, and the third session she definitively told me she wants a divorce and asked how do we tell the kids. She refused to do any "homework" exercise the MC gave us outside of the limited sessions. Keep in mind this was all before I found this forum, and read others' experiences with MC - I just assumed a counselor could help us fix any issues, and was completely wrong. Looking back I thing she wanted to "check the box" so she could tell her family and friends "we even tried counseling" and/or have the counselor help her tell me she wanted D and how to communicate with the kids.

My point is this...from the start I just assumed MC would help, but W had absolutely no interest in trying at all. I was the one reaching out to book appointments, flexing out around work, asking to try the "homework" together...whereas gave it all but 3 sessions before pulling the plug. I spoke with my sister's co-worker who went through something very similar and his Ex literally jumped out of the car when they were stopped at a light on the way to MC he was advocating. So...just be wary of MC fixing anything unless your H is 100% bought in.

[may22]

Just to add to BL and CW's points on this-- During the A, before I knew anything about it but just had had the ILYB conversation, we did MC for about six or eight months. It was a total check-the-box-on-the-way-to-divorce experience. My H was motivated to do this to be able to say he'd worked on the M and so found the MC, got it all set up, etc. We ended this because it was clear that he wasn't really interested in working on the M. He started seeing an IC on his own instead, ostensibly to work on his anger management issues (for which I bore a lot of resentment and felt was a root cause of our marital problems) but actually it was to work on his ambivalence about the A and our M.

Once he (finally) ended his A, I had MC obviously on my list of things that needed to happen eventually, but did not want to jump into it too quickly. We both did IC for about 3 months, took a six month break, and then started up MC last month. One of my mini-goals that I set but did not tell him about was that I wanted him to do the legwork on the MC. I would say it wasn't until three months ago or so that he started saying regularly that he thought MC would be a good idea on his own and let's get into it. I sat back and waited to see what would happen. We did talk about it several times (and I did say to him eventually that it would be nice if he figured it all out, since he'd done it once before when motivated to get Ded, so I was waiting to see when he had that same level of motivation to stay Med). And, it happened. But it TOOK TIME and I think it would have not been incredibly useful if we had started it before he was really ready. If I were you, I'd put the MC in the same category as piecing and simply not worry about it right now. If you get there, you'll have plenty of time to figure that out. For now, worry about you.

xx M

[Ready2Change]

One of my mini-goals that I set but did not tell him about was that I wanted him to do the legwork on the MC. I would say it wasn't until three months ago or so that he started saying regularly that he thought MC would be a good idea on his own and let's get into it. I sat back and waited to see what would happen. We did talk about it several times (and I did say to him eventually that it would be nice if he figured it all out, since he'd done it once before when motivated to get Ded, so I was waiting to see when he had that same level of motivation to stay Med).

Art, coming up with your private list is important. Watching his behavior is more important than listening to his words.

[Artemis1]

Let me start by saying, sorry its taken me so long to reply, work, festivals with my son, life, lol. So i will do my best to reply to everyone.

Quick bit on the last week, Headlines anyways My H had his first meeting with the military Chaplain today in which he had planned to learn about more counseling and marriage related services, I hadn't asked for this info, he told it to me of his own accord. It should have ended awhile ago and I have not gotten ahold of my H to see how it went, he went to work right after, or was suppose to at least. Which has been very difficult for me so far but I am trying to stay strong. Also My H asked me if I'd be interested in this sort of Marriage related seminar through the Military, its called Strong Bonds, its a sort of seminar with couples on tips on communication and things such as this apparently, he has to sign up soon he said if so, I asked him how long for the deadline, he says he has to check but he believes he has about a month. I told him I am not ready to make that decision right now but I will try to let him know before the deadline if possible. My H has been thoughtful towards me in many ways and very communicative about his schedule and future plans, I have been friendly and attentive but not overly so, or pursuing on the Information... Unless necessary for our son of course.

SteveLW After typing this I'm going to go and reread Sandi's rules to help me remeber them all lol And I have been keeping up pretty well with staying upbeat and not getting pulled into Talks the last week. My H has tried a few times and I've been polite and engaged but ultimately have been able to get by without really giving answers, I guess thats the best way to say it. And trust me, I own my side of our problems because I can't move forward to be the person I want to be without acknowledging them, but I won't tell him I am committed to working on everything until he can own up to what he has done (not all the behaviors in our M as I know that will probably take more time and help, but the last few months for sure).

LH19 I have been GALing my butt off as suggested, had a great time going to a fair and concert with a good friend and another day with my son I've been focusing on work and my son, and friends, much more then I thought id be able to.

CWarrior When I was saying we I believe it was more future related on if I should do it soon or not. Also I am very excited for the Vacay and would have NEVER took one without him before and it's very freeing.

Ready2Change 19 when I had my son, and H was 20 when we met, but other then that everything is pretty accurate lol I am trying to do your advice as well. As for your second response, I have been working on my list, already have had a few things happen from it, obviously I'm wanting him to do more before Im anywhere near believing him on truly working on things.

May22 Obviously the second situation is more like mine, I have definitely faltered at times, still being so new to all of this, but I have come a long day and I am doing my best and getting stronger in it all everyday. Also I am truly glad you see the "car talk" as I will refer to it, more the way I did, I suppose you'd have to be there to get it alot of the time. I definitely never made it out like what he did was my Fault at all. My H at times has said he is sorry for the infidelity, S etc. but definitely still tries to blame the S on our problems and tries to justify it in which I usually try to make a statement that's validating how he feels at the time but that I disagree and I make an excuse to leave. Its only happen maybe twice while othertimes he takes full blame but it is still happening so I know he isn't fully ready yet, if ever. Thank you for telling me your story with your S, I definitley am not near believing this time for real, it will of course take me a long time to, if this is real. I will look up that Youtube video the first chance I get You are correct with boundaries, It's defintley one of the biggest issues I have had, I have however gotten MUCH better at them the last weed, something about him wanting to work on things has made it easier the last week to detach and maintain boundaries, not sure thats good or bad, Im just being honest. I am constantly rereading forums on both subjects to permanently burn the words in my mind LOL Thank you for your support.

Hoping I got everyone, Thank you all for your advice and support as always, I know I wouldnt feel as okay as I do right now, without you all