Saving Pack through D, Pack_19 part V

[LH19]

Should I eat my pride and be nice to her when we exchange the kids?

Pack Hi & Bye are pretty standard in society. Maybe start with a head nod.

Right now I want to give up on this fight I have made up in my mind.

What does this fight look like?

[bttrfly]

hi Pack. Do the kids see you and wife not speaking? First of all a 1 year old isn't going to be aware of words/lack of words so much as vibe/body language/sense tension from parents. A 6 year old may/may not pick up on words/lack of words but will potentially be much more aware of vibe though probably won't be able to pinpoint exactly what's going on.

Don't let your W manipulate you by using the children as a weapon or tool.

That said, I think you have to behave in a way that is authentic to who you are, your beliefs, your core values. I also think that it never hurts to be polite.

What helped me was this thought: I would imagine fast forwarding to my son being 30 years old. At that time, what did I want my son to say about how I behaved during the separation/divorce? My answer was always the same: I wanted him to say that his mom had not only always put his wellbeing first, but also took the high road. That was my guiding influence.

I hope this helps.

[kml]

Just be polite. That's all that's required.

[SteveLW]

Pack, I get what you are saying about not wanting to be fake with her. However, I think you just continue to DB. You treat her with politeness. You are kind like you would be to a total stranger. But you do not over share with her, just like the cashier at the store.

Her: "Hi, how'd it go with them?"
You: "It went well. We did some fun things, I am sure they will tell you."
Her: "Ok I will have to discuss it with them, but they seem like they enjoyed it."
You: "Yes, they really did seem to have a good time."
Her: "Okay well, we have some fun things planned to, we are going to go here and do this."
You: "That sounds great! They should enjoy that. Hey, I have to get going, I have some place I need to be."

Then leave.

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

[Mumin]

I won’t tell you what to do but believe you are wrong in saying “it won’t change anything”.
It will change your kids experience.
A friend is also going through D, not as complicated as some sitches here but with a bit of aggression and hostility. At one point my friend wasn’t speaking to his ex at all. Hardly emails.
Their seven year old daughter started having severe anxiety and sleeping problems. That all ended when they decided to be more polite/cordial during exchanges and communication.

[Traveler]

Sunday night we exchanged the kids. When I was leaving W said goodbye and I was getting in the car in silence. She told me, this, you not talking to me, is what is hurting our kids. I gave her a look of disagreement and left. Is she right and I am mistaken?

Yes!

I know saying hello and goodbye wont change anything but it just does not come natural to fake it. I am ok to fake politeness at work, on social events and so on, but as I get to know the man I want to be I do not want that in my private and close relationships.

Could you make KINDNESS one of your virtues? I'll give two examples from my weekend.

1. I ran a social event this weekend and was polite to hundreds of people, even a couple of whom I don't particularly admire. "You look tired, would you like a cold drink?"

2. Sunday was Mother's Day in the USA. When I met my XW I thanked her for all the wonderful things she'd done this year as a mother and hugged her. She teared up.

These kindnesses cost little but define who I am as a person.

Should I eat my pride and be nice to her when we exchange the kids?

If perhaps the above doesn't work for you--no judgment, we all have different values--could you take PRIDE in doing what's best for your kids even if it's not what Pack would otherwise do? You're that dreaded "Nice Guy" if you expect doing this will win her back or gain you anything else. You're a "Good Guy" if you do this because it's kind and/or best for your children.

[Pack_19]

hi all,

Thanks a lot for the messages and the support. I can do this for my children. But it will be hello and goodbye, nothing more. I know you all mean well and for the sake of S8 and S3 but after all she has done and how she has treated me, all I can think of is to make a stand for the man I aspire to become and the respect that I deserve.

Pack Hi & Bye are pretty standard in society. Maybe start with a head nod.

Thanks LH, I really can do the hello and goodbye thing. But this might make it easier for me to be cordial in the presence of the children.

What does this fight look like?

I have bought into the whole idea that one person can change the dynamics of a R. I am a very different man from the one who was left behind in Munich in 2019. I thought if I could address my issues and let her go I would be giving us the best chances. That is the fight, my fight alone for the M. And it is all cr@p I built in my head to tell me I could also achieve this goal and repair the damage I have caused or my side of it.

Don't let your W manipulate you by using the children as a weapon or tool.

That said, I think you have to behave in a way that is authentic to who you are, your beliefs, your core values. I also think that it never hurts to be polite.

Thanks for the post bttrfly, this is the reason why I come here to ask. There has been so much manipulation in the past that now I question how strong I have to be in front of these statements and how much of them I can let through into my brain. I have said this before, I dont want my children to have the same issues I had , I want them to learn how you set boundaries, decide the things that are good in your life and how to respond when you are treated in the way W has treated me. I am not thinking that I am a victim, I just want to be a rock for them and never shaken again by W and her perception of me. She can think whatever she want, I am a wonderful man and father and someday I will make a woman very happy.

Your reference to that thought of how I want my children to remember my attitude now as they grow resonates with the way I think. I am always assessing myself on this, what do they perceive, learn and see from dad? will they want to imitate it? Thank you bttrfly! I mean it!

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

Hi Steve, I really wanted to talk to you and LH. I know I can be brutally honest with you two. She is not a stranger Steve, she is the person that threw me away as H and partner and destroyed all we had built together as a family to start a new life where the only thing that was not working for her (me) was not present. Trust me, I am an angel to strangers, I can spend 15 minutes talking to the lady that I buy bread from, but this woman took her wedding ring and threw it at my face in front of our children at home in munich. If I am polite to her, it will be fake and for the sake of my children and yes consider it done.

I am not sure if you can understand me but I am starting to think that yes I had many issues, some of them I have already fixed, but I was not the useless partner she had me thinking I was. There was value in our family, our children and our plans to buy a house, and she is acting as if it is something that never happened and to be forgotten.

It will change your kids experience.

Hi mumin, message received. I will learn from this and not let it happen again. I would do anything for my children. I can do this, I am a good man with good values. Thank you!

If perhaps the above doesn't work for you--no judgment, we all have different values--could you take PRIDE in doing what's best for your kids even if it's not what Pack would otherwise do? You're that dreaded "Nice Guy" if you expect doing this will win her back or gain you anything else. You're a "Good Guy" if you do this because it's kind and/or best for your children.

Hi traveler, thanks a lot for the post. I am now past the point of trying to do anything to win her back. That version of Pack has been beaten to death. Yes I can take pride in doing that communication with her for the sake of our children and their feelings as they grow. thank you for rephrasing this for me. I am not a jerk with my pride neither am I overcompensating for my past nice guy behaviour. I just want to grow to become a man of honor, values, self respect, confidence and a protector of those I care for.

I apologize if I have sounded vindictive, I am just deeply sad for the way my M has died so soon with such young kids. Thank you for helping me turn this into the best learning experience in my life.

((hugs))
Pack

[bttrfly]

Pack I'll let you in on a little secret - for Mother's day my son made me a card. He wrote what I hoped he would feel as a 30 year old (he's 22): that he knows I'm his #1 supporter and that he knows he can always depend on me and hopes I will be able to do the same with him.

He's also told me more than once over the past two years that he knows I've always put his needs and what's best for him ahead of my own, especially in relation to his dad and fighting around the divorce. He really gets it. I don't slag my exh - I always try to give son perspective, that his dad didn't grow up in a vacuum and that personal history always needs to be factored in with everyone we meet in life.

Our kids are always paying attention - even when we don't realize it. It's a great gift to model authenticity and compassion. Do that and they will be fine - so will you, but especially do it for them. I'm glad my post helped.
xo

[LH19]

Pack. I wouldn’t give up so easy. Don’t sit and Pine for her get on with your life but you guys are very young and no one knows what the future holds. You GAL like nobody I have ever seen and are destined for great things. Chin up tits out!

[SteveLW]

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

Hi Steve, I really wanted to talk to you and LH. I know I can be brutally honest with you two. She is not a stranger Steve, she is the person that threw me away as H and partner and destroyed all we had built together as a family to start a new life where the only thing that was not working for her (me) was not present. Trust me, I am an angel to strangers, I can spend 15 minutes talking to the lady that I buy bread from, but this woman took her wedding ring and threw it at my face in front of our children at home in munich. If I am polite to her, it will be fake and for the sake of my children and yes consider it done.

I am not sure if you can understand me but I am starting to think that yes I had many issues, some of them I have already fixed, but I was not the useless partner she had me thinking I was. There was value in our family, our children and our plans to buy a house, and she is acting as if it is something that never happened and to be forgotten.

Pack, completely understandable. I have a good friend that was left by his 1st wife. She cheated on him several times in their short marriage. She then accused of him of things that were not true. Really dragged him through the mud. Then when they divorced, their sizable debt was divided evenly. Unfortunately, creditors are under no legal obligation to abide by a divorce settlement. So when she could not pay her half (she was completely broke without him), they came after him. He sent the creditors copies of the divorce settlement. They referred his accounts to collection agencies. He was in his early 20s, $30k in debt with little or nothing to show for it. A divorcee, whose name and been dragged through the mud and accused of horrible things he had not done.

He was completely ignoring and rude to his Ex from that point forward. Anytime they ran into each other he bee-lined the other direction. He refused her calls and any communications. He wanted nothing to do with her ever again.

And I completely supported him for that. But there was one big difference. They didn't have kids. So cutting all ties was a no-brainer and a no problem for him at all.

Your situation is different. I get that you are beyond hurt. I completely understand why you feel no need to even acknowledge her. But as others have said your kids are watching. Their mom is still their mom. No one here is suggesting you be friendly like you are with the bread maker and other strangers. Just that you are polite.

I'd also suggest discussing this with a good IC.

Pack, you have made huge strides in your time here. I know you've had a long, difficult road. But you've put in the work and moved yourself forward. You've got this!