Saving Pack through D, Pack_19 part V

[Pack_19]

Link to previous thread - https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2914041&page=1

Hi all! I hope everyone is well and healthy. I just read about Sandi not logging in and, hoping for the best, I just want say how incredibly helpful she has been for me and I am sure others. I literally have a note on my work monitor to remind myself to keep all I have learned here as a compass in my life.

I have been really busy finding a new job, with the house in Germany and gathering documents and information for the D so I took a time away from the forum and my books again. I feel like I am finally understanding the path to my happiness, taking care of myself and my needs and just pouring all the love I have onto my children. I still struggle with what my M and family could have been, but am growing stronger everyday with the goal of becoming the man I am meant to be.

Let´s go point by point. I was very frustrated in my old job, being in Spain, asking for a promotion and only being given the "you need to keep growing" feedback was not easy. So last summer I updated my CV and went job hunting for a remote position. I interviewed with Google and Facebook, some banks and tech companies but eventually it was a process started by a recruiter that has landed me a better job remotely from Spain (yay!) with a US based company. I have a more senior position (still doing machine learning in the cloud), I get more benefits, an amazing base salary and it is not an IT company so the team atmosphere so far it´s been great. I started this month because I was asked to stay in my previous role to finish a customer project I was responsible for, but I can say it has been an improvement in my life and therefore that of my children. Of course when I said I was leaving the previous job, my teammates were surprised and my manager offered me a remote position in Spain but it was too late by then.

I bought that motorbike I kept talking about (next step is the BMW M) and despite I ride very carefully, the feeling of freedom and speed is just amazing even when you are doing 30 mph. I use it to go to the crossfit mostly but again I love it. I completed my first half marathon race last month at 1:37:00 and I am incredibly proud! Now training for a full marathon, still riding the bike, wearing nice clothes, taking care of my hygiene, lifting heavier weights at crossfit and doing my sexual kung fu exercises (LOL). I am mostly focused now on working on Pack emotionally and intellectually. I recently finished Seduction and What Women Want When They Test Men and I am working on my self-esteem, my unalterable terms and building a life according to my principles. The hardest part is working on accepting this is permanent, my new life, my new family, the time I will get with my children and the reality that if I am ever ready to date again, I will need to be sincere and put all the cards on the table regarding my life situation and the importance of my children in my life. But I am not ready yet, I am still saving Pack from this hell and cementing my changes for my new life.

I have now filed for D with my new L. I have filed based on my principles, the time in this open M / limbo and to force me to move on (sadly, I needed this). He has helped me with many things I struggled in the past. Such as imposing I dont have to be there stuck to my phone at 20 pm so that my children talk to W daily on the phone, never to let her make a scene again (as you ALL told me here), protecting myself and replacing child support that she is clearly not spending on them for private tuition at a bilingual school here. I had to collect a lot of documents but the D papers are now sent and we are awaiting response from W and her L.

We sold the house to a lovely couple in Munich! We traveled our separate ways to Munich and met there at the notary. I tried to frame the trip as business but just setting foot there brought me all the memories about how proud I was of the education our kids were getting there, my job and just in general being in a city with so many opportunities and such level of progress. I cried a lot, in the solitude of my hotel room but it was a terrible time. I also went to the bank to ensure I could operate on the benefits from the selling and move the funds to Spain. Once the money finally arrived, and remember I have been solely covering the mortgage since October 2019 when W left home and paying child support as well, I sent my L all the calculations based on the expenses I had covered and sent W her part of the benefits. Of course, she returned the money, claiming that the calculation was unfair and I got a very nice letter from her L accusing me of a crime by moving the money from our shared account in Germany. I lost it for a bit but I have learned by now not to act on my emotional reactions. I calmed down, prepared all proof of bank movements and sent it to my L. When I talked to my L, he told me to sleep well because I had committed no crime and he reassured me he would make the most so that W cannot have nothing more than what is fair. The money is in my bank account now (I refuse to play a tennis game of bank transfers) and I am waiting for action from her L.

Looking back at all the money transfers in 2019 I could really see how idiot I have been when I was emotionally a wreck. W just wanted to get away from me regardless of the pain or destruction and do it asap and I was just there saying "yes go, I will take care of all responsibilities from our shared life, you go and dance and drink with OM at the night club". What a Muppet of a man, thank God he is no more. I am going to show my children what a strong man does, how he is happy, how he treats women and how he guides his life by his principles.

W has not changed a bit, she is all love with the kids but continues to treat me with disrespect and hatred. Our last fight was due to the new school for the kids. I am going to pay everything so I went in search of the best one that fitted my budget. I visited 3 schools and finally made a choice. When I contacted W for her agreement, she replied back that she was unsure about the change now and that I had not involved her in the decision. I talked to my L and he said there was no reason for W to reject a new private bilingual school starting next course. Not only she won't help, but now she has decided to be a constant obstacle in anything I try to do wrt the children. BTW, I talked to S8 and he all in for the new school were he can have native English speakers as teachers. I am not sure how to proceed here, whether via my L or try to reason with W.

I always have in my head that sentence on short term inconvenience for long term happiness. I am still very broken inside, so I wanted to come back to continue to improve and learn from you all and to ask for help in saving me through the D. I never wanted this, I was convinced it would never be me the one filing, I wanted to reunite my family and give my children the love and stability they deserve but W´s priorities are just out of sync with mine now. I want to learn here how to be a strong man and how to parent my children through the D. As time passes, I am also learning to see where I failed as a man and H and where I was a rock star, because in some aspects I was.I still struggle with the idea that my M is dead, and it has been dead for a long time and my W is the person I see in front of me now, not the one I had imagined in my head.

My updated PIES:

P - Prepare that marathon, continue to ride the bike and improve my best marks on crossfit. Continue to eat healthy and limiting the amount of alcohol. Practice the sexual kung-fu exercises and dress well.
I - Grow to become a team leader in the new job, continue to read about men and woman and exercise and diet. Get the car I always wanted.
E - Listening actively to anyone I can, focusing on the things I have and finding happiness in building the best possible R with my children. Regaining self esteem and confidence in front of women and learning to be happy alone. Forgiving myself for all my DB mistakes, but never letting them happen again. Detach from W and M.
S - Knowing Pack better, understanding my values and priorities and living with them and learning to like and care for these. Accept I cannot control my way out of this.

Thank you all, please keep posting. I am looking forward to hearing your suggestions.

[SteveLW]

Pack, it is awesome to hear from you and hear you are doing so well. Keep up the great work, keep moving forward, keep being the best you can be! You've got this.

I share your concern on sandi. Miss her and her insights. I feel the contributions she made to the site and to LBHs in particular were invaluable! She was by far the shining light on this board due to her perspective of being a former WW/WAW. I pray that she is well and just busy with life right now.

Pack19, now that have come through the other side. Any thoughts you could give to LBSs that are struggling the way you were 2 years ago?

[Traveler]

Pack, wow, I'm impressed to see you finally move forward. This is a fantastic update and it sounds like you are finally living your life for yourself and your kids. I second Steve's question!

Any thoughts you could give to LBSs that are struggling the way you were 2 years ago?

[Pack_19]

Hi Steve!

Thanks for the reply.

I am not having a good day. My dear W sued me for dividing the winnings from the house selling in my account. I went to see my L, he says this was unnecessary, says a lot about W and her L and has reassured me since we are not D yet, there is no crime and we will prepare an adequate response in time.

I asked L to check if W will allow me to register the kids in the bilingual school starting next course and the answer from W´s L was that she has already replied to me (referring to that email where she said I had not involved her and she was not sure about the change). My blood is boiling today, I cannot improve my children´s school and I am not sure if I can refuse to register them again in the same school. I need her approval to change them, even if I will cover all expenses, but my denial in the current school is worth nothing. I am paying the consequences now of my past mistakes...

I dont think I am entirely in the other side, but here is my best shot Steve.

This forum is full of truth, truth you wont like and/or will not want to hear. I made decisions that have affected my life and those of my children when W was emotionally abusing me and threatening me. I was not a man and I let her do and say things I would not tolerate now. Sandi´s advice is gold, she was always talking about COMMANDING respect via actions. That is what you need to do, the beginning is a fight against your instincts, but you need you win this war, a long war. So let the lion/lioness in you come out, be selfish, take care of your needs, get to know yourself, make yourself happy (no interaction with S, it is not the time) and in the solitude of your bed take a deep look into yourself, where can this lion/lioness improve? Cover all PIES, physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. Accept your life will be under construction for a long time, you will be easily distracted by your emotions, you will be less productive, you will be vulnerable (if you were like me a big pillar of your life just collapsed, be kind to yourself).

ONLY trust the advice from those who really love you (siblings, best friends, and your IC, because if you can you should go to IC) and before making any decisions do not be afraid to come here, share it and be vulnerable. People here have lived the same and will guide you in an attempt to avoid those mistakes. But you will make those mistakes, sadly, it is the best way to learn.

If you have kids, make them number 1 in your life, pour love into them. Make new memories, take them to new places, hug and kiss them 20 times a day if you can, fill your love tank via your children, it is the most fulfilling thing you will ever do.

You think D bomb was the worst ever? Lean back, you are about to experience pain, doubt, fear and loneliness to levels you could never imagine. But this trial will make you better, it will teach you in months things most people never learn or take years to learn. Use all this hurt as fuel to bring out the best version of you that you can be and make that your one and only goal. It is time to change, if you are here, there are things to change.

how has my life changed?
- I have learned massively about R dynamics, my friends admire me in that sense and love my advice when dealing with W.
- My children love and respect me, they seek to share with me all they do, hug and kiss me regularly and admire how dad has a great job, exercises a lot and is a massive car freak.
- I have met women since I filed for D. When you learn to identify love languages, listen actively, show principles and affection, the right women come to you. Those who show red flags lost any chances with a wonderful man. Sorry, maybe I am too harsh here, but nobody will ever hurt me how W did. Now I can identify who truly respects, admires and loves me.
- I run, I run a lot and buy great shoes to compete, I just bought my first motorbike and I am about to buy the car I always wanted when living in Munich (for you it could be traveling, brewing beer, collecting watches...). I took up crossfit and changed my diet and clothes, I have never looked this good and manly.
- I have a clear picture of the man I want to be and use it and my principles as the compass to guide my life decisions.
- I have accepted I made many mistakes, but it was not my fault that W left me in a different country, went partying and there were multiple OMs. I cannot be ashamed as a man for that. I wanted to have a perfect family with the wrong woman, someday I will find the right one, but there is no rush, because my life right now is simply amazing.

Keep working on yourself, come and post here, dont let your S get the worst of you and commit to GAL, commit to changes, commit to saving yourself as an individual and the happiness of your children if there are.

((hugs)) Pack

[Pack_19]

And get a good L, the best you can afford, it will be the best investment you ever made!

p.s. For me, I took the golden nuggets from this forum and made them into an audio. I still listen to it regularly. It has helped every concept sink down in my brain.

I once met a woman who asked me, "wow, you have very high expectations from women, you will end up alone, don't you fear it?" I replied, "I have high expectations AND strong boundaries, because I am a strong, loving and fun man, and I deserve such a woman".

She ended up asking me out several times.

I have always said this place saved my integrity and sanity. I dont think I will ever leave it, that´s how thankful I am.

((hugs)), Pack

[SteveLW]

Great stuff here, Pack! When I get a second I am going add this to R2C's thread.

[Pack_19]

hi all!

First I want to wish you all a happy new year! I hope holidays were great with your loved ones. I have seen this section full of new names and that saddens me deeply. Yes you learn and develop incredibly with the support of the board but no one should go through the sleepless nights, tears, burning frustration and jealousy on your chest and all other feelings that come with D. I will try to help newcomers now that I feel I have gained perspective over my sitch.

I have been away mostly due to the new job. I lead now a small team and many things need to change in the organization, I have the feeling I need to prove myself so I am working long hours and using the rest to enjoy time with my children and keeping up my exercise routine. But I miss the support and help this board always brings me so here I am! Ready to share and get support.

As I did the previous year, Christmas holidays have all been about the children. I focused on decorating the house, finding terrific presents for them (I can proudly say I did ), watching new series or playing new games with them, showing them how much I love them and how they are number 1 in my life. I am focused on Pack, my PIES and working on accepting that my M is worst than over and I am alone in my new life. I work hard, I exercise a lot, I see my friends and share terrific moments, I try to be the best father I can be, I listen actively as much as I can, I read a lot (recently finished Models and Boundaries in Marriage), I am working on getting to know me better... but I do all of this with a grief/sad feeling that I lost all I had built my life on and was never given a chance to make it work for good with all the new lessons I have now. What I mean is that I still struggle with the idea that I need to reset my life and that it is the only way ahead. I use the time that has passed, the things W has done and the new love and respect I feel for Pack to reinforce the idea that a life without W and M and a new horizon for Pack is the only way ahead.

There are things that hurt me to levels I cannot understand. For example, the other day S8 and S3 were at school for the representation of a living nativity (Belen). S8 was dressed as a shepherd and S3 was a little angel. I paused work to go see the during the only hour we could as parents, while queuing to get in I saw W arrive. We exchanged not a word, and she was literally 2 spaces behind me in the row. I walked in and went straight to see S8. I made some jokes, took pictures, hugged him, asked him about the setup and I told him mom was there. She arrived so I went to see S3 and same story. She took some pictures I asked her to share and she never did and left earlier. I managed to remain focused on my children but my brain was shouting "who is this woman? do you really have kids with her?" These situations feel so weird for me and they hurt so much I cannot understand it. Maybe you can help me with your experience. Any comments and suggestions on how to handle these new situations will help me.

I took some time this morning to re-read my last 3 threads and I can say you learn to understand messages or receive them in a different light when time has passed. I also see some of my earlier messages and think I was a mess and you all had to put up with some needy, desperate and almost irrational messages and reactions from my side. thanks for having been there for me. I specially love reading the early messages from Sandi, LH or Ben. Messages I wasnt prepared to receive and know I can properly store in my head and heart.

The other day I met a woman I really like in crossfit. I talked briefly to her and some days latter added her to IG. When I tried to message her there she blocked me, which left me shocked and brought back all the ghosts of Pack having issues with pressure and pursuit. The next session I approached her and told her I had added her to speak after we met in the box and that I was sorry if it had been intrusive. She said she wasnt sure who that was and she was sorry. I told her just chatting in person would have been a much better idea and said goodbye. Since then I have been doing my thing and thinking well she clearly wasnt the one and I can feel her paying attention to me when we coincide in the same sessions in the box. Why am I telling this story? In the same way that I monitored my active listening like a maniac, I now monitor my pressure, pursuit and the level of interest in a woman like a worse maniac. I am never going back to the ugly rock bottom I hit with W.

I love the new Pack, I love how crossfit is changing my body, how running allows me to be part of sport competitions, how I prioritize having a nice bike and car now that I can afford it, how I have improved my communication skills and I am not scared to express my feelings or ask questions, how I am learning my weaknesses, using my hard work to achieve personal goals in life, how he parents S3 and S8 in a way that they know daddy is loving and caring but also the strongest authority for them, how I have found new value in conversations with strangers, how I understand women better, how I refine and admire my values and principles, how much I talk when I am happy and how I need to go alone for a run when I am troubled, how I can go out for dinner alone or join a group of new friends if they invite me, how I stopped being a nice guy and how I can enforce boundaries with the people that hurt me or do things I do not want to have in my life, how I wake up every day with a desire to improve and grow as a man, how I have developed a sixth sense to read who truly loves me and cares about me and how I am learning to be happy and complete ALONE.

I am working on making Pack's worth come from my perception and development as a man, and not from all the accusations from my W. But I still go to sleep many nights thinking about Munich and my life there and wondering if the last words I will get from W are "I made a firm decision and I have said to you all I had to say about our M". There are so many things that will stay unsaid, I wanted to fix things and talk these but I guess I was late. Now I simply dont want to be vulnerable in front of the woman she is, I want to be solid rock, unmovable, unbreakable, unshakeable.

Thank you all for your support and help!

((hugs))
Pack

[LH19]

I am focused on Pack, my PIES and working on accepting that my M is worst than over and I am alone in my new life.

You are not alone. You have your children, family and friends.

I work hard, I exercise a lot, I see my friends and share terrific moments, I try to be the best father I can be, I listen actively as much as I can, I read a lot (recently finished Models and Boundaries in Marriage), I am working on getting to know me better... but I do all of this with a grief/sad feeling that I lost all I had built my life on and was never given a chance to make it work for good with all the new lessons I have now.

The changes have to be for you Pack. You will get there.

What I mean is that I still struggle with the idea that I need to reset my life and that it is the only way ahead. I use the time that has passed, the things W has done and the new love and respect I feel for Pack to reinforce the idea that a life without W and M and a new horizon for Pack is the only way ahead.

Exactly! Time to move forward.

There are things that hurt me to levels I cannot understand. For example, the other day S8 and S3 were at school for the representation of a living nativity (Belen). S8 was dressed as a shepherd and S3 was a little angel. I paused work to go see the during the only hour we could as parents, while queuing to get in I saw W arrive. We exchanged not a word, and she was literally 2 spaces behind me in the row. I walked in and went straight to see S8. I made some jokes, took pictures, hugged him, asked him about the setup and I told him mom was there. She arrived so I went to see S3 and same story. She took some pictures I asked her to share and she never did and left earlier. I managed to remain focused on my children but my brain was shouting "who is this woman? do you really have kids with her?" These situations feel so weird for me and they hurt so much I cannot understand it. Maybe you can help me with your experience. Any comments and suggestions on how to handle these new situations will help me.

So you have to decide what kind of relationship you want to have with her. You can't go NC and then show up and joke and play around with her and expect her to reciprocate. If you are NC when you see her say "hi" and smile. Maybe discuss kids. That's it.

I specially love reading the early messages from Sandi, LH or Ben. Messages I wasnt prepared to receive and know I can properly store in my head and heart.

It is really hard in the beginning to understand that your current marriage id dead in the water.

The other day I met a woman I really like in crossfit. I talked briefly to her and some days latter added her to IG. When I tried to message her there she blocked me, which left me shocked and brought back all the ghosts of Pack having issues with pressure and pursuit.

What did you message her.?

Since then I have been doing my thing and thinking well she clearly wasnt the one and I can feel her paying attention to me when we coincide in the same sessions in the box.

Well talk to her but keep the convo light.

I love the new Pack, I love how crossfit is changing my body, how running allows me to be part of sport competitions, how I prioritize having a nice bike and car now that I can afford it, how I have improved my communication skills and I am not scared to express my feelings or ask questions, how I am learning my weaknesses, using my hard work to achieve personal goals in life, how he parents S3 and S8 in a way that they know daddy is loving and caring but also the strongest authority for them, how I have found new value in conversations with strangers, how I understand women better, how I refine and admire my values and principles, how much I talk when I am happy and how I need to go alone for a run when I am troubled, how I can go out for dinner alone or join a group of new friends if they invite me, how I stopped being a nice guy and how I can enforce boundaries with the people that hurt me or do things I do not want to have in my life, how I wake up every day with a desire to improve and grow as a man, how I have developed a sixth sense to read who truly loves me and cares about me and how I am learning to be happy and complete ALONE.
You GAL better then anyone I know.
[quote=Pack_19] But I still go to sleep many nights thinking about Munich and my life there and wondering if the last words I will get from W are "I made a firm decision and I have said to you all I had to say about our M".

Nah. You guys have young kids together. You will be intermixing lives for a really long time.

There are so many things that will stay unsaid, I wanted to fix things and talk these but I guess I was late.

It's too late for now. That may change down the road.

Now I simply dont want to be vulnerable in front of the woman she is, I want to be solid rock, unmovable, unbreakable, unshakeable.

Then do it!

[SteveLW]

Pack, love it! Keep up the great work. Really good stuff here. Even your struggles are normal, and you seem to be handling them really well.

I am not a social media guy, so I don't know what the protocols are for adding someone to social media. Was it too soon? IDK. Seems like most people nowadays are very quick to ask for a person's social media accounts, like we asked for phone numbers back in my time! So I don't think that was out of line. I think you handled it well, confronted it and moved on. Did she unblock you after she found out who it was? If not, that is your answer. You tried, she wasn't interested, move on! Life is too short.

But man you are in such a strong place, it is wonderful to see the improvement in someone. This board is often quoted saying that if you DB you will be successful, even if you don't save your marriage. And you are the embodiment of that!

Obviously, I have no life experience to share with you related to coparenting and dealing with your Ex. Just keep doing you!

[BL42]

Pack_19,

Good to hear an update. I actually went back and read through your entire stich last night.

Hope this doesn't come across as insulting or critical, but you majorly struggled with detachment and avoiding pressure/pursuit. I mean epically. For at least a year and a half despite many vets on the board telling you not to, you pursued relentlessly (asking for lunches, asking for walks, so many R conversations, emails...etc.). I can't count the number of times you said "Alright, time to start Last Resort Technique (LRT) or No Contact (NC)" only to reach out a few days later. It's not something you can just turn on and off! I only bring that up to say I see a significant improvement in this area now. I bet if you went back and read through your sitch start to present, it would be clear to you how much progress you've made in the area.

As bad as you were in the detachment & no pressure/pursuit, you really excelled at pouring your emotions into physical activity and transforming your physique and style. With all the running, biking, and cross fit over the past two years I bet you're a physical specimen and feel great about that! Love all the self-help and relationship resources you read as well.

I was very frustrated in my old job, being in Spain, asking for a promotion and only being given the "you need to keep growing" feedback was not easy. So last summer I updated my CV and went job hunting for a remote position. I interviewed with Google and Facebook, some banks and tech companies but eventually it was a process started by a recruiter that has landed me a better job remotely from Spain (yay!) with a US based company. I have a more senior position (still doing machine learning in the cloud), I get more benefits, an amazing base salary and it is not an IT company so the team atmosphere so far it´s been great. I started this month because I was asked to stay in my previous role to finish a customer project I was responsible for, but I can say it has been an improvement in my life and therefore that of my children. Of course when I said I was leaving the previous job, my teammates were surprised and my manager offered me a remote position in Spain but it was too late by then.

Congrats on the new job! Good for you for understanding your worth and needs and exploring other options.

Interesting reaction from the old company. You had been asking for promotions and flexibility on working remote due to your personal situation and they weren't willing to accommodate your needs...until you found something new and then they tried to cater to you but it was too late in your mind. Your old company reminds me of an LBS in a way. Just a thought.

I have now filed for D with my new L.

Good for you. I'm generally against D and think married couples should work through their issues, but as been stated on this board ad nauseum marriage takes two willing parties and your W is clearly not willing. You can rest easy knowing you fought for your marriage for two years despite repeated infidelity, disrespect, rejection and hatred from your W. Time to take a stand for yourself, let go, and move on.

We sold the house to a lovely couple in Munich!

Good news! Glad you can put that item behind you.

When I talked to my L, he told me to sleep well because I had committed no crime and he reassured me he would make the most so that W cannot have nothing more than what is fair. The money is in my bank account now (I refuse to play a tennis game of bank transfers) and I am waiting for action from her L.

I am still very broken inside, so I wanted to come back to continue to improve and learn from you all and to ask for help in saving me through the D.

You're stronger than you know. You'll get through this.

I never wanted this, I was convinced it would never be me the one filing, I wanted to reunite my family and give my children the love and stability they deserve but W´s priorities are just out of sync with mine now.

You're not responsible for the D. You may not have been a perfect husband, but can rest assured you stood for your marriage. You just can't control your wife...this is her path.

I want to learn here how to be a strong man and how to parent my children through the D.
Great goal! I've no doubt you'll make it happen.

[quote=Pack_19]I will try to help newcomers now that I feel I have gained perspective over my sitch.

This is great. We need more folks commenting and helping others here.

There are things that hurt me to levels I cannot understand. For example, the other day S8 and S3 were at school for the representation of a living nativity (Belen). ...I saw W arrive. We exchanged not a word, and she was literally 2 spaces behind me in the row....I managed to remain focused on my children but my brain was shouting "who is this woman? do you really have kids with her?" These situations feel so weird for me and they hurt so much I cannot understand it. Maybe you can help me with your experience. Any comments and suggestions on how to handle these new situations will help me.

Agreed, it's weird and awkward. I wrote about an awkward situation after my S6's parent/teacher conference. But I think it'll get easier over time.

I also see some of my earlier messages and think I was a mess and you all had to put up with some needy, desperate and almost irrational messages and reactions from my side.

That's alright. Almost all of us struggled. Just keep learning from it and improving going forward.

I'm glad to hear you got a new job, sold the Munich house, filed for D and are moving on. You've made so much progress on your PIES, especially physical, and you're sounding much stronger emotionally and form a detachment/no pursuit perspective.

Your most recent posts show growth and I think you're doing great. Keep it up! We're all rooting for you!

[OnlyBent]

Great stuff Pack, hope to see you back a bit more again.

[Pack_19]

Hi all,
I hope you are all safe. First I must ask about Sandi, I imagine she has not been back. I listen to my audio with her messages to me weekly so in a way she is still very present in my head (and yes that is how hard it is being for me to fully move on).

I have been away cause recently I had a minor accident on the motorbike, a young lad opened the door of a car while in a traffic queue when I was passing by and I got stitches on my left leg and a broken collarbone so I am mostly getting help from my parents with the kids. I cannot exercise and it is killing me, I am at home and all these thoughts about my past life, how much W has hurt me and how I need to move on with my new life knowing it is now me the one who would not take her back based on my newly found self respect and principles.

Before the accident I was sailing in full GAL mode. I bought the BMW M with part of the earnings from the house in Munich (something in my brain says I should use my money in a clever investment instead but this has been a dream since I was a little boy and I have studied and worked hard for 20 years for this moment). The car is just, wow!, I cannot wait to take it to a track day in a racetrack close to home. I also ran my first marathon on 3:50. I was on pace for 3:18 but at km number 38 I got a massive cramp on my left leg. Still I managed to put myself together and I finished running after I walked for 1 km. My sister was there on her bike cheering, as I came into the finishing line I broke down on tears, I was telling myself "Pack, all the days crying at home, all the long evenings running to burn down your fears, hurt and frustration, they have all come to this. You owe this to the new man you have become".

I can only say this will not be the last one I run. I have a new goal for my PIES, do one under 3:30! The kids are doing great, last weekend it was hard as the little one did not want to go back with W after we had a great day watching Ferrari win again in the F1. I gave S8 my ferrari hat and told him, son put this on, today we win again! And he asked me, dad who are you supporting? I think he was all confused after last year of us supporting Max Verstappen, hahahaah it was a great day.

I avoid all interactions with W except children related emergencies. My brain goes into pain, fear and anxiety every time I approach her. I think I have finally learned interacting with her is fire, and all that can happen is that I get burned. We are not D yet, W must have learned about my new job and the last time her L came back to mind all of a sudden she wanted alimony. So we have shared custody, she wants more than it is fair from the house and alimony. I know I should put aside finances as business, but it is not about the money, it is about making and stand against W to show her I am now a rock she wont be shaking again with threats and manipulation never again. My L told me that due to the law in Spain and our large salary gap, any judge would give me a generous alimony to pay. I am not sure if you can understand me, but it is enough that W has kicked me out of her new life and make me responsible for all but now I need to send money monthly to this stranger that she has become AND suffer the time I have to live as if I had no children because we dont interact. I must be still broken inside but my mentality is, if I am going to life a single life, let it be a proper one, and if I am going to be a star of a father, I want a strong and loving woman next to me. I need to work a lot on these thoughts, I know I have friends, loving family, two treasure of boys, health and a great career and that makes me a very fortunate man.

I struggle with being alone. I know I am still work under construction but I have not met anyone worth my time and having sex with women I occasionally date feels good from a physical point of view but let's be honest is meaningless and doesn't really allow me to put into practice all I have learned about mean and women properly. Someday I will be ready, I just need to keep pushing, keep working on myself and being the best father I can be. The girl in crossfit, I just made a joke on IG about the weight she was lifting. I tend to brake the ice with intelligent sense of humor. I guess she was not interested, period and moving on.

Updated PIES

P - Get back to crossfit and smash my PRs. Marathon under 3:30, keep practicing my sexual kung-fu, work on my diet and keep up the new looks and improve my diet.
I - Grow as a team leader in the new company, learn as much as I can from google cloud. Read my books on R and women. Improve my driving and riding skills.
E - Practice active listening with everyone, be more social and open. Never pursuing any woman. Love, respect and admire the new man I have become. Put children above all in my life. Detach from W and accept my M is no more.
S - Talk to God, ask him for help moving on and leaving my thoughts that question how I have growth and improved through this hell. Accept I could never control the outcome, focus on me and improving as a man and father.

Pack_19,

As bad as you were in the detachment & no pressure/pursuit, you really excelled at pouring your emotions into physical activity and transforming your physique and style. With all the running, biking, and cross fit over the past two years I bet you're a physical specimen and feel great about that! Love all the self-help and relationship resources you read as well.

I have never felt this good and I think it scatters to other aspects of my life. When I am emotional, feeling down or questioning my growth I go for a run or do some serious weights in crossfit. I feel more of a man, I feel I can be a leader to my children, I feel stronger, more confident and I honestly blame myself for never having taken it seriously while I was married.

Good for you. I'm generally against D and think married couples should work through their issues, but as been stated on this board ad nauseum marriage takes two willing parties and your W is clearly not willing. You can rest easy knowing you fought for your marriage for two years despite repeated infidelity, disrespect, rejection and hatred from your W. Time to take a stand for yourself, let go, and move on.

The line about repeated infidelity really hit me hard. I need to detach further but reading the words still burns a fire in my chest. Thanks for telling me the things I have to listen to, I will use these messages as fuel to keep moving forward. I have cried many days in the loneliness of my home. It is time to become an amazing man.

You're not responsible for the D. You may not have been a perfect husband, but can rest assured you stood for your marriage. You just can't control your wife...this is her path.

Someday I will be able to talk all of this with my children but yes God knows I gave it my best. I radically changed my life and demolished all I had built for a chance that never existed. What a nice piece of learning for Pack. You know, of all the times she has seen me since the accident wearing my right arm on a sling, not once has she asked me how I was and what had happened. Not that I care as I did in the past, it just makes me think she must really hate me.

That's alright. Almost all of us struggled. Just keep learning from it and improving going forward.

I'm glad to hear you got a new job, sold the Munich house, filed for D and are moving on. You've made so much progress on your PIES, especially physical, and you're sounding much stronger emotionally and form a detachment/no pursuit perspective.

Your most recent posts show growth and I think you're doing great. Keep it up! We're all rooting for you!

I feel stronger emotionally, thank you. I know I have to put extra effort on the emotional and mental strength as well as how I value myself when it comes to relationships with women. Can I please ask for some advice on how to handle the D thing? I want to be free from this past that only brings me pain and misery but I am not going to surrender financially to a person that has destroyed all we had just to get away from me because, as she said, she cannot be happy next to me.

Thank you all, I really needed to recharge batteries after the accident and reading your comments is perfect for that!

So many great people in this board, thanks!

[BL42]

Pack_19,

Sorry to hear about the leg and collarbone. Hope your recovery progresses.

Otherwise good stuff. Congrats on the half marathon! Simply finishing one regardless of the time is an accomplishment. Way to power through. Enjoy the car. I'm mostly a saver and investor myself, but you have to splurge and live life every once in awhile.

I avoid all interactions with W except children related emergencies.

Good! That's big progress for you.

My brain goes into pain, fear and anxiety every time I approach her. I think I have finally learned interacting with her is fire, and all that can happen is that I get burned.

Hopefully your brain calms down in interactions over time, but you've learned your lesson about getting burned.

My L told me that due to the law in Spain and our large salary gap, any judge would give me a generous alimony to pay. I am not sure if you can understand me, but it is enough that W has kicked me out of her new life and make me responsible for all but now I need to send money monthly to this stranger that she has become AND suffer the time I have to live as if I had no children because we dont interact.

I empathize with you. Not only does she get away with being unfaithful and breaking up your family, but now you have to pay her to do it. It feels like adding insult to injury or a kick while you're down. I write monthly checks as well. It doesn't seem right. Unfortunately it is what it is. Nothing you can do about it, so just have to accept it.

I must be still broken inside but my mentality is, if I am going to life a single life, let it be a proper one, and if I am going to be a star of a father, I want a strong and loving woman next to me. I need to work a lot on these thoughts, I know I have friends, loving family, two treasure of boys, health and a great career and that makes me a very fortunate man.

That doesn't sound broken. It sounds like the right attitude.

I struggle with being alone. I know I am still work under construction but I have not met anyone worth my time and having sex with women I occasionally date feels good from a physical point of view but let's be honest is meaningless and doesn't really allow me to put into practice all I have learned about mean and women properly.

I hear you. I haven't met anyone either; it's lonely some times.

I just need to keep pushing, keep working on myself and being the best father I can be.

Absolutely. Keep crushing it!

Updated PIES

P - Get back to crossfit and smash my PRs. Marathon under 3:30, keep practicing my sexual kung-fu, work on my diet and keep up the new looks and improve my diet.
I - Grow as a team leader in the new company, learn as much as I can from google cloud. Read my books on R and women. Improve my driving and riding skills.
E - Practice active listening with everyone, be more social and open. Never pursuing any woman. Love, respect and admire the new man I have become. Put children above all in my life. Detach from W and accept my M is no more.
S - Talk to God, ask him for help moving on and leaving my thoughts that question how I have growth and improved through this hell. Accept I could never control the outcome, focus on me and improving as a man and father.

Fantastic list of goals. Make it happen!

I have never felt this good and I think it scatters to other aspects of my life. When I am emotional, feeling down or questioning my growth I go for a run or do some serious weights in crossfit. I feel more of a man, I feel I can be a leader to my children, I feel stronger, more confident

Awesome!

I honestly blame myself for never having taken it seriously while I was married.

Lessons learned. Don't blame yourself too much. You can't change the past...just don't make the same mistake again.

The line about repeated infidelity really hit me hard. I need to detach further but reading the words still burns a fire in my chest. Thanks for telling me the things I have to listen to, I will use these messages as fuel to keep moving forward. I have cried many days in the loneliness of my home. It is time to become an amazing man.

Sorry Pack. It does hurt, trust me I know. But you're making great progress.

Someday I will be able to talk all of this with my children but yes God knows I gave it my best.

Yes, absolutely.

You know, of all the times she has seen me since the accident wearing my right arm on a sling, not once has she asked me how I was and what had happened. Not that I care as I did in the past, it just makes me think she must really hate me.

During IHS my W laughed at me and openly mocked me when I had car troubles in the morning on a day when I had a very important work meeting. That may always stick out in my mind. Put aside her not helping (as you'd expect a spouse to do), but she was taking pleasure in my misfortune. What did I ever do to deserve that level of hatred? Nothing. Sometimes it's more about the other person's issues than our own. Good you're recognizing the behavior and won't accept it going forward.

Can I please ask for some advice on how to handle the D thing? I want to be free from this past that only brings me pain and misery but I am not going to surrender financially to a person that has destroyed all we had just to get away from me because, as she said, she cannot be happy next to me.

Not sure what advice to give. Just lean on your lawyer to keep it moving and get you the best deal you can under the law.

[Pack_19]

hi all,

hope you are having a great time. I continue through this new life focused on my children and my goals, working on not feeling any shame for the consequences of the choices W has made and monitoring like a maniac my behaviour to not chase any woman and instead create the man I was always meant to be.

I started exercising slowly after the accident and my mood has improved (I had some dark days thinking again about my M, OMs and all those thoughts I worked so hard to eliminate). I have been very busy at work since I am in the middle of growing into a position of greater responsibility and I am buying tones of equipment to go on track days with my new car (this was always a dream for me).

I woke up today to a message of my L that we have a set date for the trial next Monday. As I approach the end of this blessed nightmare that has changed me as a man and father, I still have crossed thoughts. I am incredibly thankful for how this has changed my life and yet I have a feeling that I am rowing up a river where I am lost in terms of purpose and mission. Days go by, I try to improve on my exercise routine, my job, as a father and as a friend, and yet I do not have a new long term plan for Pack.

I told myself live like this wouldnt last long, and it is. I told myself there could not be OMs, and there were. I told myself I would wait and never file for D, and here I am with a legal appointment. How have you approached the trial date? I imagine this is a subject to hide entirely from the kids, they have already suffered enough.

All interactions with W are via email and related to the children. And here are my new PIES.

P - Get back to crossfit and smash my PRs. Marathon under 3:30, my sexual kung-fu, work on my diet and recover from accident asap.
I - Grow as a team leader in the new company, improve my driving and racing skills, get into investments and have a small portfolio and continue to learn about women. Become a man of integrity and core values
E - Practice active listening with everyone, be more social and open. Never pursuing any woman. Love, respect and admire the new man I have become. Put children above all in my life.
S - Talk to God, ask him for help moving on and stop doubting my growth and improvements. Accept I could never control the outcome, focus on me and improving as a man and father.

[BL42]

Pack_19,

Good to hear from you. Sounds like you're doing all the right things in terms of your personal PIES and being the best dad you can be. Keep up all the great work. Especially in your case it's great you've dropped the pursuit and are only communicating with W about the children and through email.

How do you feel about that message from your L about the upcoming trial date? Are you actually going to have a hearing in front of a judge, or will there be an agreement/settlement made in advance to avoid one?

[Ginger1]

What is sexual kung-fu? Did I ask this already ?

[LH19]

What is sexual kung-fu? Did I ask this already ?

I think it means he karate chops his wiener lol.

[SteveLW]

Pack, great to hear from you man! I cannot answer you question definitively as I've never been through it. BUT, I do like where your head is at. It is always better to wait when you aren't sure, than to rush into anything.

You've got this!

[Pack_19]

hi all!

Sorry I have not written before. I have the kids now and you know, I must shine as a father aside from work. I am actually incredibly excited about this weekend as I have joined a sort of cars and coffee event and I am taking S9, fingers crossed he enjoys it and we can have some awesome father-son time!

The sexual kung-fu comes from "The multiorgasmic man". It is nothing more than a set of breathing and pelvis muscular exercises to help you control orgasms and separating them from ejaculation when you want. Jokes aside, I used to be unable to do this and I can now report it works!

Here comes another of my sincere posts, I just hope you can listen and help me, although nothing I do now is going to change anything and I know all I can do is improve as a man and father and make my changes permanent. I am not sure what the appointment is for, as we have two pending items. On the one hand is the D, on the other is the penal denunciation (is it said like that) she presented after I divided the earnings from the house in Munich and sent her the part that corresponded to her half after removing all expenses I had covered since she left home in October 19. I asked my layer and he says he will guide me but I am not sure for which topic it is, I want to say it is only the D.

When I saw the message my whole body ached. At this point I just want to put myself in the hands of my L and be done with this. Just thinking about interacting with W brings me memories of my darkest times and this somehow feels like the finale I never wanted, the confirmation that everyone around me was right and I was wrong, the idea that my M was not strong or healthy and was never worth fighting for during these years of tears and shame as a man. You know, looking back W is just the same she was back at home in Munich, when she was 100% sure we were done and it was time to start a new life and I am the emotionally incompetent man who is still not fully awaken to this new reality.

I will more than likely be nervous and ashamed on Monday, but I will remind me of my value as a man and have all your support in my head so that I can behave like a strong man of principles. It is so sad that my experiences and days with W have come to this, I will never understand how I messed it so much on the early months of our S to make her so sure a life without a shadow of me would make her the happiest despite our children.

I am working strongly on killing my thoughts and memories about life in the UK and Germany during our marriage. They only hurt me and they are holding me back from starting a new episode in my journey here. I wonder if with time I will look back toward these years as wasted time I spent worrying about what she was up to, how she could have erased any meaning of our M and so damn convinced that R was the best for us and our children. Yesterday I read all my four previous threads, I should have been a man and leave her alone from day one. I should have focused on me, my children and the things I was willing or wasn't willing to tolerate in a partner and I should have seen the severity of W's actions and words much earlier. This woman was destroying all I called home and family, leaving me behind as some useless lover, convinced that I had failed as a H, and I was there asking her if we could go for dinner. Then friends were telling me, Pack she is out there with others, and I was thinking well she is very lost and I am sure some day she will see the value in our family and M. AND worst of all, I was changing my appearance, my attitude and my clothes to shine in front of her during those 5 mins when we exchange the children. I have been accused of being obsessed, of harassment, of being a poor lover and of being the only thing that did not fit in her life.

Monday is going to hurt, I will probably cry at home, I will cry for that young couple and their little baby who moved to the UK with some dreams and little knowledge of the challenges in life. I will cry for all the days I will spend thinking what my children are up to and wishing they were with me and for the many things I threw away for a chance that was never under my control. This D is going to hurt like hell, but I want it, you bet I do. I deserve so much better than the last three years. Even if I have to be alone and devote myself to my children, job and hobbies. And I am not a safety net or a plan B. I am an amazing father and man and I will prove that I can look into myself and change the many defects I have.

thank you all, I love staying in touch with you all. You are a wonderful group of human beings. My focus is on Pack, my PIES and becoming the man I was always meant to be. Oh boy, is he a catch!!

[Pack_19]

Hi all!
So Monday was about D but it turns out we won't be going into trial for now. I got up early, got some breakfast and picked my audio on the golden nuggets from this board to arrive there with a clear pic in my head of the man I want to be. I was thinking on my nice guy issues and telling myself, I can handle anything thrown at me.

I meet my L earlier and he really calmed me down. We grabbed a coffee and he told me W's lawyer has made some mistakes (such as trying to request full custody for W) and things looked good for me. He told me our speech was going to be focused on how well kids have adapted to shared custody, how I have changed my job so that I am fully remote and flexible and more available to them and how I do not have to travel for work anymore. Regarding W he mentioned we would be focusing on the lack of evidence that she has tried to improve her work situation so that our salary gap was going to comfortably remain there for her benefit and how she returned to me the bank transfer after we sold the house in Munich. He mentioned worst case was things remaining as they are now, that gave me confidence and more peace. I walked to the trial room where I met W's lawyer, after a lot of talk with my L they told me they have decided to avoid the contentious path, that they would lower the expectations on the share of the benefits from the house and accept the child support to be reduced after around 6 months. W never showed up.

My L told me he does not trust W's L, but that this is a little win and that soon we will be divorced and the legal issue with the money will be withdrawn. After some talk on other topics I said thanks to him, and called my sister while I walked but home ready to go for one of my 12 km run to burn stamina. Honestly, I was relieved but deeply sad. I have been getting ready for the worst over the last 1.5 year, especially after OM and all those terrible days, and still this feels like I have lost and I was wrong focusing all I did for 2 years in changing for us and working on the marriage alone as I thought I was doing. I feel like I have a great L and no clue of what I am going to do with my life and future. I give up on us, on my old family and my pink colored memories. I am going to put myself in the hands of God or the higher power as we see it and let days go by while I focus on my PIES goals.

Sunday night we exchanged the kids. When I was leaving W said goodbye and I was getting in the car in silence. She told me, this, you not talking to me, is what is hurting our kids. I gave her a look of disagreement and left. Is she right and I am mistaken? I know saying hello and goodbye wont change anything but it just does not come natural to fake it. I am ok to fake politeness at work, on social events and so on, but as I get to know the man I want to be I do not want that in my private and close relationships. Should I eat my pride and be nice to her when we exchange the kids? I know I have made many mistakes in the past and I am working on my confidence and self esteem but these things make me doubt about my current attitude towards all that is happening. Right now I want to give up on this fight I have made up in my mind.

Thank you all for your support and time!

Pack

[LH19]

Should I eat my pride and be nice to her when we exchange the kids?

Pack Hi & Bye are pretty standard in society. Maybe start with a head nod.

Right now I want to give up on this fight I have made up in my mind.

What does this fight look like?

[bttrfly]

hi Pack. Do the kids see you and wife not speaking? First of all a 1 year old isn't going to be aware of words/lack of words so much as vibe/body language/sense tension from parents. A 6 year old may/may not pick up on words/lack of words but will potentially be much more aware of vibe though probably won't be able to pinpoint exactly what's going on.

Don't let your W manipulate you by using the children as a weapon or tool.

That said, I think you have to behave in a way that is authentic to who you are, your beliefs, your core values. I also think that it never hurts to be polite.

What helped me was this thought: I would imagine fast forwarding to my son being 30 years old. At that time, what did I want my son to say about how I behaved during the separation/divorce? My answer was always the same: I wanted him to say that his mom had not only always put his wellbeing first, but also took the high road. That was my guiding influence.

I hope this helps.

[kml]

Just be polite. That's all that's required.

[SteveLW]

Pack, I get what you are saying about not wanting to be fake with her. However, I think you just continue to DB. You treat her with politeness. You are kind like you would be to a total stranger. But you do not over share with her, just like the cashier at the store.

Her: "Hi, how'd it go with them?"
You: "It went well. We did some fun things, I am sure they will tell you."
Her: "Ok I will have to discuss it with them, but they seem like they enjoyed it."
You: "Yes, they really did seem to have a good time."
Her: "Okay well, we have some fun things planned to, we are going to go here and do this."
You: "That sounds great! They should enjoy that. Hey, I have to get going, I have some place I need to be."

Then leave.

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

[Mumin]

I won’t tell you what to do but believe you are wrong in saying “it won’t change anything”.
It will change your kids experience.
A friend is also going through D, not as complicated as some sitches here but with a bit of aggression and hostility. At one point my friend wasn’t speaking to his ex at all. Hardly emails.
Their seven year old daughter started having severe anxiety and sleeping problems. That all ended when they decided to be more polite/cordial during exchanges and communication.

[Traveler]

Sunday night we exchanged the kids. When I was leaving W said goodbye and I was getting in the car in silence. She told me, this, you not talking to me, is what is hurting our kids. I gave her a look of disagreement and left. Is she right and I am mistaken?

Yes!

I know saying hello and goodbye wont change anything but it just does not come natural to fake it. I am ok to fake politeness at work, on social events and so on, but as I get to know the man I want to be I do not want that in my private and close relationships.

Could you make KINDNESS one of your virtues? I'll give two examples from my weekend.

1. I ran a social event this weekend and was polite to hundreds of people, even a couple of whom I don't particularly admire. "You look tired, would you like a cold drink?"

2. Sunday was Mother's Day in the USA. When I met my XW I thanked her for all the wonderful things she'd done this year as a mother and hugged her. She teared up.

These kindnesses cost little but define who I am as a person.

Should I eat my pride and be nice to her when we exchange the kids?

If perhaps the above doesn't work for you--no judgment, we all have different values--could you take PRIDE in doing what's best for your kids even if it's not what Pack would otherwise do? You're that dreaded "Nice Guy" if you expect doing this will win her back or gain you anything else. You're a "Good Guy" if you do this because it's kind and/or best for your children.

[Pack_19]

hi all,

Thanks a lot for the messages and the support. I can do this for my children. But it will be hello and goodbye, nothing more. I know you all mean well and for the sake of S8 and S3 but after all she has done and how she has treated me, all I can think of is to make a stand for the man I aspire to become and the respect that I deserve.

Pack Hi & Bye are pretty standard in society. Maybe start with a head nod.

Thanks LH, I really can do the hello and goodbye thing. But this might make it easier for me to be cordial in the presence of the children.

What does this fight look like?

I have bought into the whole idea that one person can change the dynamics of a R. I am a very different man from the one who was left behind in Munich in 2019. I thought if I could address my issues and let her go I would be giving us the best chances. That is the fight, my fight alone for the M. And it is all cr@p I built in my head to tell me I could also achieve this goal and repair the damage I have caused or my side of it.

Don't let your W manipulate you by using the children as a weapon or tool.

That said, I think you have to behave in a way that is authentic to who you are, your beliefs, your core values. I also think that it never hurts to be polite.

Thanks for the post bttrfly, this is the reason why I come here to ask. There has been so much manipulation in the past that now I question how strong I have to be in front of these statements and how much of them I can let through into my brain. I have said this before, I dont want my children to have the same issues I had , I want them to learn how you set boundaries, decide the things that are good in your life and how to respond when you are treated in the way W has treated me. I am not thinking that I am a victim, I just want to be a rock for them and never shaken again by W and her perception of me. She can think whatever she want, I am a wonderful man and father and someday I will make a woman very happy.

Your reference to that thought of how I want my children to remember my attitude now as they grow resonates with the way I think. I am always assessing myself on this, what do they perceive, learn and see from dad? will they want to imitate it? Thank you bttrfly! I mean it!

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

Hi Steve, I really wanted to talk to you and LH. I know I can be brutally honest with you two. She is not a stranger Steve, she is the person that threw me away as H and partner and destroyed all we had built together as a family to start a new life where the only thing that was not working for her (me) was not present. Trust me, I am an angel to strangers, I can spend 15 minutes talking to the lady that I buy bread from, but this woman took her wedding ring and threw it at my face in front of our children at home in munich. If I am polite to her, it will be fake and for the sake of my children and yes consider it done.

I am not sure if you can understand me but I am starting to think that yes I had many issues, some of them I have already fixed, but I was not the useless partner she had me thinking I was. There was value in our family, our children and our plans to buy a house, and she is acting as if it is something that never happened and to be forgotten.

It will change your kids experience.

Hi mumin, message received. I will learn from this and not let it happen again. I would do anything for my children. I can do this, I am a good man with good values. Thank you!

If perhaps the above doesn't work for you--no judgment, we all have different values--could you take PRIDE in doing what's best for your kids even if it's not what Pack would otherwise do? You're that dreaded "Nice Guy" if you expect doing this will win her back or gain you anything else. You're a "Good Guy" if you do this because it's kind and/or best for your children.

Hi traveler, thanks a lot for the post. I am now past the point of trying to do anything to win her back. That version of Pack has been beaten to death. Yes I can take pride in doing that communication with her for the sake of our children and their feelings as they grow. thank you for rephrasing this for me. I am not a jerk with my pride neither am I overcompensating for my past nice guy behaviour. I just want to grow to become a man of honor, values, self respect, confidence and a protector of those I care for.

I apologize if I have sounded vindictive, I am just deeply sad for the way my M has died so soon with such young kids. Thank you for helping me turn this into the best learning experience in my life.

((hugs))
Pack

[bttrfly]

Pack I'll let you in on a little secret - for Mother's day my son made me a card. He wrote what I hoped he would feel as a 30 year old (he's 22): that he knows I'm his #1 supporter and that he knows he can always depend on me and hopes I will be able to do the same with him.

He's also told me more than once over the past two years that he knows I've always put his needs and what's best for him ahead of my own, especially in relation to his dad and fighting around the divorce. He really gets it. I don't slag my exh - I always try to give son perspective, that his dad didn't grow up in a vacuum and that personal history always needs to be factored in with everyone we meet in life.

Our kids are always paying attention - even when we don't realize it. It's a great gift to model authenticity and compassion. Do that and they will be fine - so will you, but especially do it for them. I'm glad my post helped.
xo

[LH19]

Pack. I wouldn’t give up so easy. Don’t sit and Pine for her get on with your life but you guys are very young and no one knows what the future holds. You GAL like nobody I have ever seen and are destined for great things. Chin up tits out!

[SteveLW]

R2C likes to say "Never stop DBing!" I agree with him. You DB with her for the rest of your life. Not to save the marriage (since that is now beyond all of that), but to have a friendly, polite R with her but still keep her at arms length.

Hi Steve, I really wanted to talk to you and LH. I know I can be brutally honest with you two. She is not a stranger Steve, she is the person that threw me away as H and partner and destroyed all we had built together as a family to start a new life where the only thing that was not working for her (me) was not present. Trust me, I am an angel to strangers, I can spend 15 minutes talking to the lady that I buy bread from, but this woman took her wedding ring and threw it at my face in front of our children at home in munich. If I am polite to her, it will be fake and for the sake of my children and yes consider it done.

I am not sure if you can understand me but I am starting to think that yes I had many issues, some of them I have already fixed, but I was not the useless partner she had me thinking I was. There was value in our family, our children and our plans to buy a house, and she is acting as if it is something that never happened and to be forgotten.

Pack, completely understandable. I have a good friend that was left by his 1st wife. She cheated on him several times in their short marriage. She then accused of him of things that were not true. Really dragged him through the mud. Then when they divorced, their sizable debt was divided evenly. Unfortunately, creditors are under no legal obligation to abide by a divorce settlement. So when she could not pay her half (she was completely broke without him), they came after him. He sent the creditors copies of the divorce settlement. They referred his accounts to collection agencies. He was in his early 20s, $30k in debt with little or nothing to show for it. A divorcee, whose name and been dragged through the mud and accused of horrible things he had not done.

He was completely ignoring and rude to his Ex from that point forward. Anytime they ran into each other he bee-lined the other direction. He refused her calls and any communications. He wanted nothing to do with her ever again.

And I completely supported him for that. But there was one big difference. They didn't have kids. So cutting all ties was a no-brainer and a no problem for him at all.

Your situation is different. I get that you are beyond hurt. I completely understand why you feel no need to even acknowledge her. But as others have said your kids are watching. Their mom is still their mom. No one here is suggesting you be friendly like you are with the bread maker and other strangers. Just that you are polite.

I'd also suggest discussing this with a good IC.

Pack, you have made huge strides in your time here. I know you've had a long, difficult road. But you've put in the work and moved yourself forward. You've got this!

[Pack_19]

Hi all! I hope you are doing great! thanks a lot for following up with me. Since I posted here this last doubt I have always tried to remain polite when we exchange the kids. Hello, a short smile and goodbye. But always focused on the kids and thinking that I am doing this for them. At the end of the day, no matter how much she has hurt me, she will always be their mom.

I am back on full GAL mode now that I can exercise again. Physically I am back to crossfit and aiming at my past PRs, I can run longer distances and have signed up for a new half marathon in Valencia. Intellectually I am trying to grow as a leader and even if I only have a team of 4, I am trying to be a good leader technically and in the personal side of our relationship. Emotionally, I continue to practice active listening and monitor that I do not chase any woman and just build a life as a man on principles focused on my children. Spiritually I have developed this mental metaphor that I was hanging from a cliff and tied to a rope that was anchored on my past life (Munich, our family routine, my W, my job in a cool office at the city center). I was scared to death to cut the rope, but now I have a parachute (my changes, my books, this forum, my new goals) so I imagine myself cutting the rope and free falling down the cliff. I dont know what lies at the bottom of the cliff, but I am safe thanks to my parachute, I am enjoying the feeling of free falling (letting go) and the speed at which I am going down prevents me from looking back.

I recently read NMMNG again and I focused on the sections about regaining your power, masculinity and sexuality. I am now reading again "The multiorgasmic man" (back to the sexual kung fu) and will go back to "What women want when they test men" when done with that one. I am working with a friend on the possibility to start our own business on the basis of Machine Learning (what I do now) and quantum compute and it is a very exciting idea that has a scary side because I always think that the future of my children depends on how well I can do professionally (offering them a good university and so on). I am mainly working now on my confidence, self esteem and appearance. I am a driven man, I have goals, a mission, I know myself, I know my needs and the kind of woman I expect to find some day.

I am lonely, I havent been on a miserable date for months and the accident certainly hasnt helped. Sometimes I think that I am not ready yet and I am wasting the best years of my life waiting for a change on W that will never happen. So I have to stop waiting and get going. W remains the same, a friend I met yesterday told me she keeps posting pictures as if she was an influencer on IG and he was telling me how it feels as if she is empty inside. I stopped him and said, I dont want to hear about this J, I am trying to get over her and our past and focused on the kids. When we exchange the kids I am starting to see the stranger she has become. I tell myself, Pack it has been 3 years, you need to leave this painful limbo and build a new life, you have done your best but it was never under your control. Focus on the very few things you can control.

Our kids are always paying attention - even when we don't realize it. It's a great gift to model authenticity and compassion. Do that and they will be fine - so will you, but especially do it for them. I'm glad my post helped.
xo

Thanks for the message bttrfly, sometimes I can tell S8 is aware of things that are happening and I feel it makes no sense to protect him of what is our reality. I am focused on showing him he is truly important to me and our relationship is at the top of my priorities and I think he is picking up on that. So easy when you stop trying to change for someone that never loved you and instead focus on being the best version of yourself!

Pack. I wouldn’t give up so easy. Don’t sit and pine for her, get on with your life but you guys are very young and no one knows what the future holds. You GAL like nobody I have ever seen and are destined for great things. Chin up tits out!

Hi LH19. When I first read your post this weekend my brain went into "maybe she changes someday and realizes what we had as a family". See how I still need to work on detachment a lot, I took the time to analyze my thoughts and I remembered the day Sandi told me I focused on the part of the post that I wanted to. Thanks a lot for the message. After all the mistakes I have made, remember my attempt of an ultimatum when W was ignoring me? What a mess I have been. I feel like successfully GAL and being the man I want to be carries inertia, the more you do of it, the easier it becomes. I have now understood your post, forgive myself, forgive W, move on, focus on me and embrace whatever life has to bring me in the upcoming years. Thanks LH, I am sure you will have more comments for me after this post.

And I completely supported him for that. But there was one big difference. They didn't have kids. So cutting all ties was a no-brainer and a no problem for him at all.

Your situation is different. I get that you are beyond hurt. I completely understand why you feel no need to even acknowledge her. But as others have said your kids are watching. Their mom is still their mom. No one here is suggesting you be friendly like you are with the bread maker and other strangers. Just that you are polite.

I'd also suggest discussing this with a good IC.

Pack, you have made huge strides in your time here. I know you've had a long, difficult road. But you've put in the work and moved yourself forward. You've got this!

I hear you Steve, no matter how badly I want to pull her away from my life, she is going to be there, for the long term. Thanks a lot for supporting me in the decision that I cannot be friends with W. I remember at the beginning of our in house separation, she would tell me all she wanted is for us to be friends and talk about the kids but that our R was dead. I will be polite, strong and unbreakable. I have two little men that I have to turn into real men who would not repeat the mistakes their father made.

I am amazed at how long it has been and how slowly I have seen reality, what W was doing, how I was reacting, how it was hurting my children and how wrong I was about the idea of saving my marriage with changes in myself. What a drive Steve! I would never go through it again but in the long run it will make the man I always wanted to be and the best father for S8 and S3.

Thank you all, I remain NC, working on myself, accepting my fight is over, focused on my PIES and the new man I am becoming. I will not let you down!

[SteveLW]

Pack, solid post!

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

Thanks for the reply Steve. I hope you are all doing great.

Most significant changes from my last post are that I continue to be cordial with W and I even offered we both attend the end of school party for S8 and S3 when are meant to spend that day with me just for the sake that they can have mom and dad there, for them only. I always smile, say hello and goodbye when we exchange the kids but I am developing a kind of apathy towards these interactions, as if I just wanted them to be over and zero exposition to W in my life. Maybe you can offer some help here, I know she will be there for the long run because of our children. Thank you all!

I have not heard back from W's L regarding the agreement for D after they asked to cancel the legal process and come to an agreement. I have days when I wake up thinking let's just finish this, send her whatever I am obliged to legally and be done with it. Other days I think well I never wanted D and I haven't met anyone, is not like my life is going to change tomorrow, I am as divorced as it gets in all possible senses.

I am completely focused on me and the kids. I workout daily, I am building my visibility and network as a leader in the new company, I still work on active listening and not pursuing anyone and just doing my thing. Focused on my PIES and letting days go by, enjoying S8 and S3 when they are home, going for a run, a ride, or a beer with a good friend when I am alone. I have signed up for a new track day with the car in Jerez and I am truly excited, also signed up for a half marathon in Valencia and just got some new clothes for summer (keeping up the good changes).

However, I am going through some struggles I wanted to share here. I spend many days sitting, almost paralyzed, thinking about all that has happened, if my M will come to be something I just will forget, a painful memory. I question myself and whether my changes are permanent, I go in my head through the list of changes I have implemented, my new goals and all I have learned from my books, as if I had reinforce the motivation to continue. I have always been a very driven person at work, with my goals, so these days hurt me massively because I end up thinking I am still very broken inside, it creates insecurities to present myself to other women when the opportunity comes (as I feel I still carry a lot of baggage) and it hits me hard on my high expectations for myself at work. Some days I still feel this is all I nightmare and I force myself to think, temporary Pack, this will also pass, even if it takes 10 years.

Whenever we exchange the kids W is all happy and cheerful and playful with them. I remain calm, in control of myself and focused on them but I cannot help thinking she is putting out a big scene for S8 and S3. Maybe is my hurt talking, I cannot help it, it is just the way it feels after all she has done. I remember one of the earliest posts I got from this forum was something along the lines of Pack, she has left you, not the kids. Maybe she really is happier without me in her life, I was a fool for thinking having kids makes it so much more worth fighting for it and all the times she said I was not listening and I would be left alone, she was also right. It is fun to be the man you want to be, to live life the way you want it, to feel the peace that comes from knowing yourself and your principles and working to follow them, but it is been 3 years, and I still feel stuck in my past.

Thank you all for coming and reading, I am sure you will have some good recommendations for me. ((hugs)) Pack

[BL42]

Pack_19,

I even offered we both attend the end of school party for S8 and S3 when are meant to spend that day with me just for the sake that they can have mom and dad there, for them only.

That's good. I'm sure S3 and S8 want their parents there, like the other kids. I recently attended a school art show night during my ExW's evening for dinner, and the four of us saw my son's school and art and walked around together. It felt uncomfortable for me. And I wondered what others thought - did they know we're D'd? did they think we were a normal happy family? However, it was best for my son to have both parents be there and take pride in his efforts. So I did it for him.

I am developing a kind of apathy towards these interactions, as if I just wanted them to be over and zero exposition to W in my life.

I hear you here. It'd be much easier if we could just expel our Exs out of our lives and completely go our separate ways, but our reality is with the young children they'll be very very involved over the next decade and a half, and even after that with weddings, grandkids...etc. It's something we can't control and just have to deal with. Hopefully it'll get easier / more "normal" over time. I think it will.

I am completely focused on me and the kids.

Perfect.

Focused on my PIES

You've been crushing it with your PIES. Those goals are fantastic. Keep it up.

I spend many days sitting, almost paralyzed, thinking about all that has happened, if my M will come to be something I just will forget, a painful memory.

these days hurt me massively because I end up thinking I am still very broken inside

Are you in IC? This sounds like something a professional should help you with.

I question myself and whether my changes are permanent

It's up to you to ensure they're permanent. Make it so!

it creates insecurities to present myself to other women when the opportunity comes

Just think about your Sexual Kung Fu! That has to bring you confidence ;-)

(as I feel I still carry a lot of baggage)

It's true, you have baggage. But keep in mind most if not all people your age will as well. What's important at this point is how you've worked through your issues and are handling your baggage.

Whenever we exchange the kids W is all happy and cheerful and playful with them. I remain calm, in control of myself and focused on them

Think about how much progress you've made in this area. So much begging, pleading, pursuit in the past. Now you're calm and in control. That in itself is a major accomplishment for you.

Maybe she really is happier without me in her life

Maybe she is. Maybe she will be forever, or maybe she won't be in the future. Who knows. All you can do if focus on yourself. Which, imo, you're doing a very good job of lately.

I was a fool for thinking having kids makes it so much more worth fighting for it

You weren't a fool for wanting your marriage to work and not wanting your family to split. You were honorable in that regard. But there comes a time you have to let go, control what you can control, and move forward. You know in your heart you did everything you could for your marriage and family.

and all the times she said I was not listening and I would be left alone, she was also right.

Perhaps, but you at least you did it with the right intentions.

It is fun to be the man you want to be, to live life the way you want it, to feel the peace that comes from knowing yourself and your principles and working to follow them,

Good

but it is been 3 years, and I still feel stuck in my past.

Just keep moving forward Pack. You've made incredible progress over the last couple years. Keep up the work. You have a great future ahead.

[Drh2001]

Hi all,

Thanks for the reply Steve. I hope you are all doing great.

Most significant changes from my last post are that I continue to be cordial with W and I even offered we both attend the end of school party for S8 and S3 when are meant to spend that day with me just for the sake that they can have mom and dad there, for them only. I always smile, say hello and goodbye when we exchange the kids but I am developing a kind of apathy towards these interactions, as if I just wanted them to be over and zero exposition to W in my life. Maybe you can offer some help here, I know she will be there for the long run because of our children. Thank you all!

I have not heard back from W's L regarding the agreement for D after they asked to cancel the legal process and come to an agreement. I have days when I wake up thinking let's just finish this, send her whatever I am obliged to legally and be done with it. Other days I think well I never wanted D and I haven't met anyone, is not like my life is going to change tomorrow, I am as divorced as it gets in all possible senses.

I am completely focused on me and the kids. I workout daily, I am building my visibility and network as a leader in the new company, I still work on active listening and not pursuing anyone and just doing my thing. Focused on my PIES and letting days go by, enjoying S8 and S3 when they are home, going for a run, a ride, or a beer with a good friend when I am alone. I have signed up for a new track day with the car in Jerez and I am truly excited, also signed up for a half marathon in Valencia and just got some new clothes for summer (keeping up the good changes).

However, I am going through some struggles I wanted to share here. I spend many days sitting, almost paralyzed, thinking about all that has happened, if my M will come to be something I just will forget, a painful memory. I question myself and whether my changes are permanent, I go in my head through the list of changes I have implemented, my new goals and all I have learned from my books, as if I had reinforce the motivation to continue. I have always been a very driven person at work, with my goals, so these days hurt me massively because I end up thinking I am still very broken inside, it creates insecurities to present myself to other women when the opportunity comes (as I feel I still carry a lot of baggage) and it hits me hard on my high expectations for myself at work. Some days I still feel this is all I nightmare and I force myself to think, temporary Pack, this will also pass, even if it takes 10 years.

Whenever we exchange the kids W is all happy and cheerful and playful with them. I remain calm, in control of myself and focused on them but I cannot help thinking she is putting out a big scene for S8 and S3. Maybe is my hurt talking, I cannot help it, it is just the way it feels after all she has done. I remember one of the earliest posts I got from this forum was something along the lines of Pack, she has left you, not the kids. Maybe she really is happier without me in her life, I was a fool for thinking having kids makes it so much more worth fighting for it and all the times she said I was not listening and I would be left alone, she was also right. It is fun to be the man you want to be, to live life the way you want it, to feel the peace that comes from knowing yourself and your principles and working to follow them, but it is been 3 years, and I still feel stuck in my past.

Thank you all for coming and reading, I am sure you will have some good recommendations for me. ((hugs)) Pack

Hi Pack,

It sounds like you're doing all the right things.

I also spend time thinking about whether WW would come back but she seems perfectly fine with OM and her new life. She sees the kids even less than she used to since she got a job in the state she moved to.

Recently some of our mutual friends have started unfriending me on social media - I suppose it's to be expected. Those that haven't are cold and don't reach out.

I don't speak to WW at all - there is zero communication. I use an app for scheduling kid stuff. When WW picks up my kids on Friday evenings, she'll park in the driveway, but I don't go out or say anything to her. It really is out of sight out of mind. She no longer lives or works in the state she grew up in.

My youngest daughter is starting to warm up to me now and gave me a hug today and told me she appreciates all that I do, so it's the little things like this that matter.

I think time is a wonderful healer - but it can be an awfully long time and given how our WW spouses leave us and create so much damage, I doubt whether any of us can truly move on for good without being reminded of the past. We just have to make the best of a bad situation and lead our own life.

[SteveLW]

Pack, I am with Drh, I think you are doing all the right things. I have no advice for you or thoughts about how to work through the feelings you are having. I think those are normal, and just have to be worked through. Only suggestion I have is that when those moods strike, get up and get busy doing something productive. GAL is a new lifelong thing, just keep as busy as you can.

[Pack_19]

Hi all,
Hope you are having a great week with the Holiday in US.
I just came back from a business trip to Istanbul and wanted to post. W and I had our honeymoon in Istanbul and I thought the whole trip would be painful. It wasn´t, I tried t focus on my new colleagues, walking around the city as the attractive single man I have become and enjoying the differences in the culture. This time memories or thoughts or sadness did not overwhelmed me as they did in Munich.

A quick update on the PIES.

P- Getting much better at crossfit again and almost ready for new running competitions. I have an ugly scar below my knee after the accident but it seems to be nothing that will affect or compromise my future. Goals on keeping a healthy diet, top hygiene, improving crossfit PRs, daily sexual kung fu, marathon under 3:30 and 5 kg up on muscle mass.

I- I have received more responsibility at the new job, my manager told me people like and respect me so I have to keep working to become a greater leader but things look promising. I keep reading my books, now finishing again "Light her fire" (refreshing what women enjoy from us - confidende, imagination, playfulness, initiative, goals, sensitivity and so on...) and about to start again "What women want when they test men". Trying to improve my driving skills (using the car at the racetrack is just incredible, I attended another event at Jerez with a good friend and we had the time of our lives, shame oil price makes it a once in a while hobby). Looking into potential real state investments in Seville or Madrid but waiting for the D to be final to move any funds into investments (yes, have not heard from W´s lawyer yet). I think I am going to trade my daily driver for a 5 door car to give S3 and S8 more space, just another goal for 2023.

E- Focused on active listening and respecting other people. the more I think about my early reactions during S, the more I feel W must have thought I felt zero respect towards her. Working on detachment, letting exW go and validating her feelings that our M was very deficient (the more I learn the more I see this but the more convinced I am I was focused on providing and the kids and I am able to make any woman in the world the happiest with my new understanding of relationships and genders).

S - Keep coming here talking to you all, talking to God and ensuring I work on my thoughts when I doubt my progress and changes. Be more social and open, work on my self esteem and losing the fear to meet and interact with any woman. Thinking in terms of abundance, getting but my masculinity, sexuality and power.

Pack_19,
That's good. I'm sure S3 and S8 want their parents there, like the other kids. I recently attended a school art show night during my ExW's evening for dinner, and the four of us saw my son's school and art and walked around together. It felt uncomfortable for me. And I wondered what others thought - did they know we're D'd? did they think we were a normal happy family? However, it was best for my son to have both parents be there and take pride in his efforts. So I did it for him.

Thank you for the validation BL42, I dont think you could have expressed how I feel with better words. When these situations happen I find myself remembering the day one of S8 nursery teachers in Germany told us we had such a lovely family. W did not show up at the school party so I was there with S3 and S8 and talking to other parents.

You've been crushing it with your PIES. Those goals are fantastic. Keep it up.

My goals, my children and the feeling that this time will pass, it is all I have now.

Are you in IC? This sounds like something a professional should help you with.

I stopped IC when I took up crossfit, but I will find a new IC and will discuss this with him/her. Thanks a lot for your support.

Just think about your Sexual Kung Fu! That has to bring you confidence ;-)

I am very scared that the moment I can focus back on my career and rebuild my life, the mistakes I made with W might repeat. But you are right, the new found respect, confidence and the motivation of knowing you are taking time and effort to improve as a man change it all. Last weekend at my friends bday in a beach club I approached a woman I liked and engaged in some conversation with her. I could really tell she was also into me, I invited her to a drink and got her number. She told me I was a chatterbox and she was having a great time.

Think about how much progress you've made in this area. So much begging, pleading, pursuit in the past. Now you're calm and in control. That in itself is a major accomplishment for you.

Now it just feels natural to not invest my time on people who are not interested on it. I cannot believe how stupid I was at the beginning of S, constantly checking the phone, thinking what W was up to... I have grown so much, and mostly thanks to this board.

Maybe she really is happier without me in her life
Maybe she is. Maybe she will be forever, or maybe she won't be in the future. Who knows. All you can do if focus on yourself. Which, imo, you're doing a very good job of lately.

You weren't a fool for wanting your marriage to work and not wanting your family to split. You were honorable in that regard. But there comes a time you have to let go, control what you can control, and move forward. You know in your heart you did everything you could for your marriage and family.

thank you, I did try my best, even when I was doing all my changes for W it was poor understanding of how this game works. last week I had a crossfit competition, then we had some drinks in the afternoon and I told some guys my story as they asked me if I had kids. two divorced ones with children were amazed that I was so young and had gone through these. One of them said: "Pack, when you want to talk come to me, I will understand you. He said, the sadness when you leave them will never disappear, for me I still cry at home. Sometimes music triggers a memory when my son was a baby and it still affects me." He also told me I had to accept the war against W to gain children favour was already lost, that all I had to do is focus on me and the kids and force myself to think "I cannot let this woman destroy my life anymore, no matter what she does, I will not let it impact my happiness".

Just keep moving forward Pack. You've made incredible progress over the last couple years. Keep up the work. You have a great future ahead.

This is a marathon to become the best man I can be, and the best role model for S3 and S8. thank you, I am always so happy to come back to the board.

[Pack_19]

Hi Pack,

It sounds like you're doing all the right things.

I also spend time thinking about whether WW would come back but she seems perfectly fine with OM and her new life. She sees the kids even less than she used to since she got a job in the state she moved to.

Recently some of our mutual friends have started unfriending me on social media - I suppose it's to be expected. Those that haven't are cold and don't reach out.

I don't speak to WW at all - there is zero communication. I use an app for scheduling kid stuff. When WW picks up my kids on Friday evenings, she'll park in the driveway, but I don't go out or say anything to her. It really is out of sight out of mind. She no longer lives or works in the state she grew up in.

My youngest daughter is starting to warm up to me now and gave me a hug today and told me she appreciates all that I do, so it's the little things like this that matter.

I think time is a wonderful healer - but it can be an awfully long time and given how our WW spouses leave us and create so much damage, I doubt whether any of us can truly move on for good without being reminded of the past. We just have to make the best of a bad situation and lead our own life.

Hi Drh2001,

Thanks for the message. I do not have the full story behind your sitch but based on the fact that you mention OM and your youngest daughter opening up to you I imagine you have suffered so much, lean on me whenever you need, I can imagine how you must have felt.

I am sure you have room to give yourself to your daughter so that she will continue to warm up, love on her, talk to her and try to make new memories. Continue to work on yourself as a man and father, it is the most rewarding consequence of this purgatory.

Not sure about the time, I am confident it will help me heal but I will never fully get over the damage caused by the person I had planned to have as my life companion. But hey, it is a world of abundance and right now all I have to do is become the best possible role model for my children. I never want my little boys to go through this hell I have experienced.

Pack, I am with Drh, I think you are doing all the right things. I have no advice for you or thoughts about how to work through the feelings you are having. I think those are normal, and just have to be worked through. Only suggestion I have is that when those moods strike, get up and get busy doing something productive. GAL is a new lifelong thing, just keep as busy as you can.

Hi SteveLW, deep inside my head I know I am doing the right things, all the good books I have resonate on the same ideas. Focus on yourself, cover your needs, be happy alone, confident, keep busy, set goals, own and express your feelings, set boundaries with others, know and handle the differences between men and women, be outgoing and social or improve spiritually.

The good thing is that I have surrounded myself with activities to fight these thoughts. Running and crossfit, calisthenics, riding the motorbike, my books, shopping for sport clothes hahahaha

thanks for the help and validation. I am sure Sandi would be proud of me if she could read this, I am going to continue to make her so. It is wonderful how much you have helped me change sitting behind a computer screen. Thank you all!

[BL42]

Pack,

What's the latest on the official/legal D process?

[BL42]

Pack_19,

It's been awhile...how are you doing? Hope you're crushing life with your marathons and sexual kung fu!

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

I really needed to come back here, but I had to put together the courage to write in a time when I am feeling a bit of a failure in my DB. It has been over 3 years since W left our home in Germany and as you can imagine all I hear around me is that I should just move on. However, I wake up everyday convinced I have to leave it all behind but filled with thoughts about our family and all we lived together.

I finally have a new divorce agreement and we will be signing it next month. After a lot of lawyer negotiation, we have agreed that I will pay more than I consider fair from the house we sold in Munich and in exchange we will limit the pension I pay on shared custody. It seems with our salary difference any judge in Spain would give me a more than generous pension. I have been feeling like the financial topic should not bother me, I should be able to say "W, here is your half, go and enjoy your life, I will do the same with mine". Yet, I worked so hard for all we had and I had to bring down after she left, let's just say I am working on those feelings and letting it go.

R with W continues to feel artificial and forced due to the kids. Just the other day we went to the doctor with S8 and we stayed always distant and focused on S8. I spent2 hours last week talking to my parent about these feelings. They told I need to find a woman who truly loves me and then my mind will find peace, they said I see W from the eyes of a man who loved her when she left and I need to understand that she does not care about me as a man, just about the children and her relationship with them. I know what they are trying to say, but I dont look at her like that anymore, we are strangers for God sake, but somehow I still see the mother of my children and it breaks my heart that we are going to be apart for the rest of our lives, we will remain strangers and eventually forget the stage we shared.

I am killing my PIES and the relationship with the kids. I go to crossfit daily, I continue to read my books (just finished The power of now and re-reading now The way of the superior man), I am working on my confidence, talking to women I meet at different places and perceiving rejection as something positive that saves me time (fine I cannot think about W like that, my brain is really messed). I recently traveled to Jordan and Israel with some friends and we had the time of our lives. I am working for a promo and recently interviewed with Meta for a manager position. I havent heard from them and I fear hiring in Europe has been frozen due to restructuring.

I havent met anyone, I have very high standards after all I have suffered and limited time with the kids, work and all the exercising. It has been impossible to find a woman that keeps me interested and attracted to put the effort I need to balance all things in my life now. I have made a reservation for a new home, larger so that each kid can have his own room and I can pay the initial 10% downpayment with the money I saved from selling the house in Munich. It should be built in 2 years, that gives me more time for saving and the opportunity to sign a comfortable mortgage. I also have plans to start a business on cloud ML projects, I need to find the right industry and use case and then build the team.

Now that is has been over a year after my hard deadline, there are no excuses and there is no way back. Even if she were to come back, I would not want to be with the person she has become and have the conversations we would need to have about these years, I am worth more than that. With that in mind, I need help from the forum members on how to force myself to move on.

Updated PIES:
[b]P[\b] - Improve my PRs in crossfit. Marathon under 3´30". Gain muscle weight, keep my wardrobe fresh. Chin up and chest out, I should be proud of the new man I have become. Practice my sexual kung fu, easier when I meet someone.
[b]I[\b] - Work for a promo, improve my skills as a leader. Keep reading about relationships and how women interact with men. Improve my driving and motorbike riding skills. Start my own business.
[b]E[\b] - Improve my active listen, show empathy, stay humble and work on improving myself as a man and father. Let W go, accept it is over and there is only one way ahead and it is not what I wanted it to be. DETACH
[b]S[\b] - Accept I cannot control my way out of this. Travel to Japan and learn about eastern religions. Stay optimistic about my future.

Thank you all, I cannot wait to hear from you!
((hugs)), Pack

[Kind18]

Hi Pack, welcome back!

You shouldn’t ever feel like you need to pluck up the “courage” to come back here and post on the board.

Your feelings are your feelings. This is a safe space. Yes, posters get called out in things from time to time. But that’s also what this board is for. If you want to come here for hugs, you’re at the wrong place. If you want to come to read others’ stories, get new insight, learn about relationships and yourself - well then it’s the place to be.

Just post. You don’t need courage if you’re here for the right reasons, because you can either shrug off the odd criticism or learn from it.

I think you’re crushing 99% of life and DB. It sounds like you’re doing ALL the right things. I think you should be really proud of what you’ve achieved.

The one thing you’re stuck on is your feelings for old her. And that’s normal.

I REALLY think you should get some IC, perhaps with a brand new counsellor, and tell them everything you just wrote here. You’re kicking life’s butt, and the only thing holding you back is feelings for the old her. They will give you some strategies to move on emotionally.

The absolute worst advice I’ve heard is “the way to get over a man/woman, is to get under another one”… but in your case, since you’ve done all the hard work, I think once you start developing feelings for someone else then it will be the final piece of the puzzle in letting go of what your ex-wife used to be.

You’ve rebuilt yourself from the ground up, you know you don’t want to be with this woman, you’re comfortable in your own skin and being single… so why not start mingling?

In terms of the “it’s hard to find someone” because you have high standards, that’s all true - but I don’t think you’re looking to find someone to marry next week! You might find, once you go on a few dates, that what you used to look for, and what the new Pack is looking for - could be very different.

Don’t be downcast. You aren’t still stuck where you were before, even if you have fleeting times thinking about how it used to be. Look at it from the other perspective - you’re 99% of the way there, and only 1% left to go.

[Ready2Change]

Welcome back.

I need help from the forum members on how to force myself to move on.

Best thing is to keep posting. It always takes time to heal. We will help however you need.

[SteveLW]

P19, great update! Remember, the emotions through all of this are not linear and have no time limit. I've known LBSs that were still struggling with feelings for their walkaway years later. The heart wants what the heart wants, and it can take a long time to let that go.

In general I think you are still crushing it! You have the right attitude. You are doing the right things. You are keeping the focus on where it should be. Regrets, unfortunately, last a lifetime sometimes. I have regrets from decades ago. The nice thing about regrets is that they keep us remembering that there are lessons to be learned from them. Many of my regrets from 30+ years ago keep me sober and dry today. I wouldn't have it any other way!

So keep up the good work. Move on at your own pace and in your own way. You've got this!

[BL42]

Pack_19,

Welcome back! It's great to hear from you. I was wondering how things were going.

Sorry to hear you're still struggling. There was recent post in the Midlife Crisis Forum by a user I've been meaning to share on a few Newbie threads, but seems especially relevant to you:

If there was any advice I could give a newbie, it would be to do the work, move on, and live your life as if the EX isn't coming back. Don't waste time. Life is too short.

Easier said than done, for sure. You've excelled in GAL but struggled a great deal with detachment since the beginning. But you've made progress. Look back and think of a couple years ago and realize how far you've come.

I finally have a new divorce agreement and we will be signing it next month.

I'm sorry to hear it's come to this. Finalizing the D is often an emotional time, even when it's been in the works for awhile. Hopefully you can use it as closure for this chapter in your life.

I have been feeling like the financial topic should not bother me, I should be able to say "W, here is your half, go and enjoy your life, I will do the same with mine". Yet, I worked so hard for all we had and I had to bring down after she left, let's just say I am working on those feelings and letting it go.

The financial impact can be frustrating for sure. But in the end the money isn't the most important thing. Once you can let it go you'll free yourself up to focus more on your kids and your new life.

They told I need to find a woman who truly loves me and then my mind will find peace

Many would argue the reverse of this. Find peace with yourself and your situation and then you will find a W to compliment your life. You don't need other people to find peace and happiness. If you seek them out for this reason it has a high chance of not ending well.

they said I see W from the eyes of a man who loved her when she left and I need to understand that she does not care about me as a man

I think they're right on this one.

I am killing my PIES and the relationship with the kids.

Great stuff on the kids, CrossFit, reading, trips with friends, your career, and the new
house

I havent met anyone, I have very high standards after all I have suffered and limited time with the kids, work and all the exercising. It has been impossible to find a woman that keeps me interested and attracted to put the effort I need to balance all things in my life now.

It's OK not to focus on meeting someone. Don't make that a metric of your progress. Like I said above you're doing great with the GAL. You're improving your life and when the time is right will attract a partner who treats you far better than your STBXW has for years, or maybe ever.

Pack - Don't be too hard on yourself. You were dealt and incredibly difficult hand, and have made great strides. You'll get there.

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your words, coming here is always coming to a safe place and for more learning.

I am finally divorced. No excuses to move forward, no more thoughts about one person single-handed changing a R and no more thoughts of having ExW or my old family back. We signed last December. I did not tell anyone, I showed up there read the new agreement, waited for her to sign it, came in afterwards, signed it and left to crossfit (the crossfit gym is officially my second home, I am thinking about putting a mattress there and paying them rent). My L made a remark on how W seemed unease as we were signing it, I did not pay attention to her, I never do. I think it is probably the apathy I feel towards this stranger she has become and the way I have written in my head that interacting with her is just getting more disrespect and pain.

My children, my PIES and Pack are the center of my universe. I work very hard on being there for my children and give them the right balance between a loving father, a reference male figure and the authority they need to grow to become responsible and loving men. Last week I re-read my previous four threads and it is giving me a new perception. I remember times at home when W was asking me to sit further away from her, hiding messages on her phone, when she mocked me about me learning about relationships from books and all the painful days thinking about potential OMs and crying on my bed. I must still be in love with the image I hold of her and my family but there is no way that she loved me during each of those episodes, she probably never did and we only got married because we had just had a baby and it felt the right thing to do to her.

Whenever we interact I am a distant father, nothing more. I leave the first, I discuss any matters about S4 or S9 that worries me and I ask for a reply by email. I am present at every school event, I take them to sports and I read with them everyday, but I no longer even mention mom to them. I am more detached, I talked about my life in the UK and Germany in first person, I have goals for the future and I have learned the amount of baggage I carry due to my failed M and my broken family.

However, I still listen to my recording with the golden nuggets from this forum more often that I should to remind me that I am work in progress and need to continue improving in my PIES. Main difference is that now I tell myself, it has been over 3 years Pack, a lot of things happen in 3 years, you have to move on and you have to start a new life for you and your kids. I dont talk to anyone about my D or ExW, I think this is one of the reasons why I wanted to come back here, it is still in my head but I have blocked the subject outside of my support circle.

Sometimes when we exchange the kids ExW comes with new friends, people I have never seen and it just makes me think that she really meant to start over and a new life the many times she told me that at home in Munich. Sometimes we discuss medical issues from the kids and I message at the end that I wish her a good day. No expectations, just being polite, and she never comes back. I dont expect any or are hurt by this behaviour, it just makes me think she still hates me and blames me for all. Having forced myself to move on, even when my brain is still pulled towards the fantasy of our live in Germany, I struggle a lot with how this is going to affect our children now and in the long term. As I have said many times here, I want them to learn how to respond to this behaviour from a woman so I try to be cordial but strong in front of ExW.

I still struggle with the idea that there have been multiple OMs and there will be more to come. I am scared of ExW moving on to a new R and bringing a new man to the world of our children. I know I will always be their only father and the one they will admire and look up to and that is fully under my control. But I struggle with the thought that the person who swore to be your life partner in good and bad just gives up and builds a new life. She must not have valued me much as a man, even before we got married.

My PIES continue to be on full mode. Last sunday I ran a half marathon in 1:30 and that was a personal target I had. I am reading again "The multi orgasmic man" and practising my sexual kung-fu, I keep using any chance I get to practice active listening and improving my empathy. I get attention from women, which tells me that I am doing the right thing, is just that at my age is hard to find people who accept you being the father of 2 children, one of them being 9. Not that I care now, I am still building the amazing solo life for Paco.

Updated PIES:
P - Improve my PRs in crossfit. Marathon under 3´30". Gain muscle weight, keep my wardrobe fresh. Chin up and chest out, I should be proud of the new man I have become. Practice my sexual kung fu and improve my diet.
I - Improve as a leader at work, read more about financial success and investments. Promote at work
E - Improve my active listen, show empathy, stay humble and work on improving myself as a man and father. Let W go, accept it is over and there is only one way ahead and it is not what I wanted it to be. DETACH and think as the single man I am.
S - Accept I cannot control my way out of this, talk to God, know the man I am, the man I want to be a define a path to get there.

When I last saw my L to talk about payments he made a joyful comment at the door. He said, btw pack, you are no longer divorced, you are now single. I am not sure if he means he has been able to process the annulment of our M. If so, fresh start and chin up.

Can I ask for some help with an issue. What is the best way to show or express to S9 that I am pass trying to get W back and moving ahead alone. Is there value in even showing this to him? I may have failed in the fight for my marriage, but this will not determine the caliber of a man I am.

Thank you all for your support and comments.

((hugs))
Pack

[BL42]

Pack,

Always good to hear from you.

I am finally divorced. No excuses to move forward, no more thoughts about one person single-handed changing a R and no more thoughts of having ExW or my old family back.

Hope this closure brings you peace and ability to move forward. Not what you wanted, but the decision wasn't yours.

My L made a remark on how W seemed unease as we were signing it, I did not pay attention to her, I never do.

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows. Perhaps even she doesn't. Glad you signed w/dignity and have detached.

My children, my PIES and Pack are the center of my universe.

I looked back at your profile and see that you're relatively young compared to many here, early 30s if I'm estimating correctly? Keep crushing it with your children, work, and PIES...like you have been, and I've no doubt you're going to have an amazing life. And a young guy in fantastic shape with a great career is going to attract a wonderful woman into your life.

Last week I re-read my previous four threads and it is giving me a new perception. I remember times at home when W was asking me to sit further away from her, hiding messages on her phone, when she mocked me about me learning about relationships from books and all the painful days thinking about potential OMs and crying on my bed. I must still be in love with the image I hold of her and my family but there is no way that she loved me during each of those episodes

Man, this really resonates. Brought back memories of Sitting far on the other side of the couch and texting OM1 in the same room...etc. Glad we're both in better spots dropping our fear and never standing for this kind of disrespect again.

I still struggle with the idea that there have been multiple OMs and there will be more to come. I am scared of ExW moving on to a new R and bringing a new man to the world of our children.

I'm kind of in the opposite position where OM2 has been a "stable" (if you can call it that) presence in ExW and kids' lives. That bothers me as well, but then I look at your side of the prospect of many different guys and that's just as bad. Either way it's not ideal, but again...need to let go of the things we can't control.

I know I will always be their only father and the one they will admire and look up to and that is fully under my control.

Indeed. Ginger reminds me her D14 calls her mom and does not call OW her mom, even though she's been in her life since she was 1.

But I struggle with the thought that the person who swore to be your life partner in good and bad just gives up and builds a new life.

I hear ya. A lot here can relate. My ExW seamlessly jumped into a new "perfect family" situation with OM2, his sister and nieces...etc all across the street; didn't seem to skip a beat in life. How is that possible? So easily replace me and my family? Not sure. But again, focus on you not ExW. You're officially single and have a great life ahead of you.

She must not have valued me much as a man, even before we got married.

It's not about you Pack! It's about her. Her history and demons and trying to process through her stuff. Likely would've happened the same with another guy. Don't put it all on you. I think you're a good guy who loved his wife and family and didn't deserve this.

Can I ask for some help with an issue. What is the best way to show or express to S9 that I am pass trying to get W back and moving ahead alone. Is there value in even showing this to him? I may have failed in the fight for my marriage, but this will not determine the caliber of a man I am.

Don't think I'd broach the topic. If he asks I'd just be straightforward and honest about it without going into details.

[greenman]

Hey Pack. You will gradually stop worrying about the details and asking yourself these tough questions. Until then, keep yourself occupied and moving forward like you are. NOTHING but time heals this, but it does.

[Gekko]

Pack you have come a long way. Keep going. The road to greatness doesn't have an end, there is no finish line. So enjoy the journey because that is all any of us has.

I don't think you have to say anything to your son about moving on. Just do it. He will see your actions and how you are showing up in the world. Remember you are an example to him of what a man is, how a man conducts himself. It's a great responsibility (no pressure LOL).

Don't get sidetracked inside your head re your ex bringing OM around the kids. You can't stop it. Accept it will happen. They have one father and that's you my friend. Be the man. There are ways to deal with any negative influences that OM and/or your ex have on the kids. I have some experience with this re my ex. The good people on this board will provide direction if that happens. Unless and until it does, don't worry about. Be a strong and dominant role model and influencer yourself such that others pale in comparison.

Good luck, keep going.

[Pack_19]

hi all,

Gekko, greenman, Ben, Steve, LH, Traveler and R2C thank you for staying with me through all of this. I have Sandi constantly in my head, the other day I met a woman who was into me and wanted to hear about my situation with the kids. I told her I had support from a M forum and she was positively impressed. She mentioned: "sometimes only the people who have lived through the same can help". I was sitting there thinking you have no idea how these people have saved me and shaped by hammer the man I am today.

I am 32, so yes nobody expects me to say btw I am a father and have shared custody of 2 children but hey that is who I am! 3.5 years since that dreadful summer day I came home to the words "I dont love you and I dont want to be with you anymore", divorced and still fighting my demons and pushing me to live one day at a time, focused on building a wonderful, loving man who follows his principles and acts as a role model to S9 and S5. Crushing my PIES, but still broken inside and in need of good help from this amazing forum.

I am rooted on my focus on my children and my PIES. I took them this weekend to see the new le mans cars in Portimao circuit and we had an amazing time, I bought the PS VR set to play with S9 and we had such good laughs (I was hitting all furniture in my small living room hahahaha) and I played padel tennis (I used to be a coach and he has realized he can really learn from me and after one hour he was asking for more time with me on the court) with S9 while S5 was helping us picking up the balls.

I have learned new moves in crossfit and improved my PRs, and I plan to continue. I have a group of friends there I look forward to seeing daily and I recently bought some adidas pro running shoes (at some point they got me running at 5:15 a mile) and I love them. I think if I keep training and competing I can improve my best times and probably get a decent marathon time this year. I recently re-read NMMNG and I am already paying the new home and very excited the kids will have a closed place to meet friends and play daily.

A cousin recently passed away with stomach cancer, she was 35 and had a D4. My sister and mom were devastated and I tried to be a rock for them. All the family has been deeply affected, I had entire nights thinking about death and not sleeping. I tried to use the experience to push me forward, think Pack life is short and you are no D, zero excuses you need to build a new life. I still read my previous threads here and listen to my golden nuggets, however now I think you are D, you are not getting anything back, nor would you want to after all that has happened. But you need these because they have fueled you to become the man you are now. Not sure if I am expressing myself properly.

So, as a summary, GAL, PIES, kids and my values. However, I cannot seem to let go of the things W told me at home in Munich. Things like how unlike that out of all the men out there you are the father of my children or I have analyzed my life and you are the one thing not working. Why do I still let those statements tumble the image I have of myself and the newly found admiration and respect for the man I am? Sometimes I think it would be easier to just have that device from the men in black movie and just erase my memory. Even though it is true those past regrets are what will keep me focused on improving and becoming the best role model for my children.

I want to ask for help from other single parents. How do you balance your career and the time with the kids? I spend a lot of time preparing snacks, tidying after them, I always do the school run, I attend all bday parties, I clean their clothes... and that unavoidably has an effect on my productivity and the time I can spend fully focused at work. Sometimes I think I should get help at home (my mum and sister already help me massively) but then I think I want to be close to my children and present. Maybe this is just a period of my life I need to park my career speed and focus on being with them otherwise I will regret it when they grow independent. Dont get me wrong, I love my job, I want a successful career and a ferrari, but the best time of the day is the pillow or nerf fight I have with S9 and S5 before bath time, I wouldnt change that for anything. I am just trying to find a balance and I wanted to ask here as maybe some of you can resonate and help me.


Updated PIES:
P - Improve my PRs in crossfit. Marathon under 3´30". Gain muscle weight, keep my wardrobe fresh. Chin up and chest out, I should be proud of the new man I have become. Practice my sexual kung fu and improve my diet.
I - Start a company or build a career that allows me to go racing as a hobby. Improve my driving and riding abilities. Learn about men and women.
E - Improve my active listen, show empathy, stay humble and work on improving myself as a man and father. Approach more women and start conversations. DETACH and think as the single man I am.
S - Accept I cannot control my way out of this, talk to God and be a role model for my kids.

thank you all, I so needed to come and post after these few weeks.

[Pack_19]

Pack,

Hope this closure brings you peace and ability to move forward. Not what you wanted, but the decision wasn't yours.

Closure remains a fight against myself, but I am getting there. I am working on not seeing myself as a failure and accepting it was never in my hands to begin with. Thanks!

Man, this really resonates. Brought back memories of Sitting far on the other side of the couch and texting OM1 in the same room...etc. Glad we're both in better spots dropping our fear and never standing for this kind of disrespect again.

It sounds obvious now but it is incredible the level of self punishment and downgrading that one can subject himself to in the face of a broken M and the desperation that comes from trying to save it no matter what. I cannot believe I let my children see that aspect of my old self, never again.

I talk to a lot of women who ask me, "what do you want or expect from a woman?". It seems me telling them look I have gone through this, my next choice for a partner is going to be unbelievably good leaves you sounding as a guy who just wants to try multiple women. Nothing wrong with it, I am just saying many W get this perception. Maybe female forum members can help me word this better.

Indeed. Ginger reminds me her D14 calls her mom and does not call OW her mom, even though she's been in her life since she was 1.

This is what we can control.

Don't think I'd broach the topic. If he asks I'd just be straightforward and honest about it without going into details.

Agree with this, let my actions be louder than any words I can talk to them. Let them see what a strong man with values and principles does on a daily basis.

Thank you! ((hugs))

[Pack_19]

Pack you have come a long way. Keep going. The road to greatness doesn't have an end, there is no finish line. So enjoy the journey because that is all any of us has.

I don't think you have to say anything to your son about moving on. Just do it. He will see your actions and how you are showing up in the world. Remember you are an example to him of what a man is, how a man conducts himself. It's a great responsibility (no pressure LOL).

Don't get sidetracked inside your head re your ex bringing OM around the kids. You can't stop it. Accept it will happen. They have one father and that's you my friend. Be the man. There are ways to deal with any negative influences that OM and/or your ex have on the kids. I have some experience with this re my ex. The good people on this board will provide direction if that happens. Unless and until it does, don't worry about. Be a strong and dominant role model and influencer yourself such that others pale in comparison.

Good luck, keep going.

This is going to be one of those posts that I read multiple times until it sinks in my brain, thanks Gekko. I am going to lead an amazing life, teach S9 and S5 all I have learned since I joined this forum when the time comes and I will ensure they want to be close to me without me having to ask. Maybe someday I get a new chance to move abroad, maybe I meet someone here and I settle down, maybe I remain single for years to come... whatever comes I will be able to face it and enjoy it because I am a new man and I am a fantastic father and work in progress in my sexual kung-fu

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pack

Sounds like you are doing really well with your self-improvements and goals. Congrats on running a 5:15 mile.

Nice to read about the new house and how exciting it will be for the kids to see and play with their friends daily. I laughed at the image of bonking into all that living room furniture while wearing the VR helmet. VR is pretty amazing; how that visual and audio input creates our new, albeit temporary, reality.

…GAL, PIES, kids and my values. However, I cannot seem to let go of the things W told me at home in Munich. Things like how unlike that out of all the men out there you are the father of my children or I have analyzed my life and you are the one thing not working. Why do I still let those statements tumble the image I have of myself and the newly found admiration and respect for the man I am?

It does take time and effort to transmute the venomous words one’s once loving spouse says. For me, I had complete trust and faith in my wife, and therefore her words had unfettered access into my belief system. That is why your rational view of self gets skewed or tumbled about.

There are four paths we all walk - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. The first two, physical and intellectual, one can directly control - thoughts, actions, and reactions.

Emotions and feelings rise and fall. They are born and live in the non-rational realm of ourselves. And they are fleeting unless reinforced.

Beliefs. Those deeply held values and convictions, motivations for how and why one lives their life as they do, are very slow to change. It takes concerted purposefully effort to shift one’s convictions. That slow to alter is the very reason they make excellent headings for life. Strengthen those beliefs that serve, crafted convictions which you aspire to, and altered or discarded that which does not serve.

All four aspects of ourselves interact and exert influence upon all. Good physical labour influences feelings of happy, productive, sated, fulfillment, and so on. Positive thoughts encourage positive feelings and accompanying actions.

The same way negative begets negative. Feelings of depression lead to depressive thoughts and actions. Which in turn reinforce one’s feelings.

Beliefs are influenced as well, however they are most often more the underlying foundation of one’s life and choices (when followed or listened to, folks in crisis or emotional turmoil being an excellent example of running and hiding away from their value system).

The usual path towards healed and wholeness starts with that which we can control. We rationalize and do act as if. Intellect and physical activity. These directly controllable efforts influence our emotional self. This is the path of grief and loss, finding emotional understanding, acceptance.

The spiritual side, faith, belief, values, whatever one likes to call it, is deep within. You’ve likely hear the wise counsel of “answers will reveal themselves when you are calm”. This is most true. One can hear their deeply-held convictions when they are calm.

Like influencing one’s emotions state, thought and physical action can strengthen, craft, and alter one’s beliefs. It is a slow process. The transmuting of poisonous words for example. Getting to a place where those words have no power of you. We first understand that, then we even feel it, yet something still nags and tugs from within.

Altering a belief or value is a life altering event. After all, convictions are the underpinning of self. They are not fleeting like emotions, and not directly controllable like thoughts. The realization in organizing one’s belief system is actually organizing one’s self. Seeing and understanding the how and why of one’s life. It’s a life long pursuit.

When all four paths are aligned much peace and contentment is found.

…divorced and still fighting my demons and pushing me to live one day at a time, focused on building a wonderful, loving man who follows his principles and acts as a role model to S9 and S5. Crushing my PIES, but still broken inside and in need of good help from this amazing forum.

Fighting begets fighting. I made peace with my demons instead of trying to battle them down. Interesting when you listen and hear what your fear and such is trying to tell you.

I want to ask for help from other single parents. How do you balance your career and the time with the kids?

My four kids were teenagers and adults at bomb drop. Still, I needed to find a new balance.

We have a finite amount of time. There are only so many hours in the day. Therefore prioritize things accordingly.

In my situation I had sole custody, I am inferring you have your kids half time. When the kids are at their Mom’s do more Pack things.

If you have flexibility in your work, schedule those extra hours or career efforts - training, courses, OT, etc. - for time when kids are not in your charge. Your employer may even be able to accommodate. I know for some of my staff who had school pick ups and drop off we allowed modified start and end times to accommodate. A modified work day with the end result still being the same number of hours.

The home life, laundry, meals, cleaning, etc, can be a lot. Allow things to not be perfect. Kids really are ok with it. They truly just want to spend time with you.

I did hire a housekeeper for a few years. That was a nice. One less item on the pile.

It’s like the beliefs from above. You already know (and value) your best times - nerf gun wars and pillow fights. Your job is important. Realize you work to live, not live to work. No one ever lays on their deathbed wishing they worked more for their employer. You need not put your career on hold either, more put it in perspective.

I love my kids and the time and memories from the choices I’ve made. I’m now retired, and I’ll tell you I’ve no regrets prioritizing family before work. That is the overarching view, as obviously there were times when work had to be first.

We all have a finite amount of time to invest. And yes, finding that balance is tricky. Think quality of time over quantity of time.

And if you ever see me doing a 5:15 mile, you best run too; something really big must be chasing me! Lol.

Have a great day.

D

[Ready2Change]

I want to ask for help from other single parents. How do you balance your career and the time with the kids?

I am inferring you have your kids half time. When the kids are at their Mom’s do more Pack things.

If you have flexibility in your work, schedule those extra hours or career efforts - training, courses, OT, etc. - for time when kids are not in your charge. Your employer may even be able to accommodate. I know for some of my staff who had school pick ups and drop off we allowed modified start and end times to accommodate. A modified work day with the end result still being the same number of hours.

The home life, laundry, meals, cleaning, etc, can be a lot. Allow things to not be perfect. Kids really are ok with it. They truly just want to spend time with you.

I did hire a housekeeper for a few years. That was a nice. One less item on the pile.

It’s like the beliefs from above. You already know (and value) your best times - nerf gun wars and pillow fights. Your job is important. Realize you work to live, not live to work. No one ever lays on their deathbed wishing they worked more for their employer. You need not put your career on hold either, more put it in perspective.

I love my kids and the time and memories from the choices I’ve made. I’m now retired, and I’ll tell you I’ve no regrets prioritizing family before work. That is the overarching view, as obviously there were times when work had to be first.

We all have a finite amount of time to invest. And yes, finding that balance is tricky. Think quality of time over quantity of time.

Same advice here. 10 years goes by in a blink of an eye. All my kids are now out of the house. Lots of free time to do whatever I want. You only have a short time with them while they are little... maximize it. Work will always be there, even after they are grown.

Also, include the kids in all the chores. Have a great time while doing each of them. Make the chores fun. Have music going and dance while sorting laundry. Have them involved in grocery shopping and picking out food for the week.

[Pack_19]

Hi DnJ,

Thanks for coming here and posting! The incident with the VR set was so funny, S9 would ask me "dad do you know what you are facing?"and I was saying "look, all I know is I am in bar and I have a big metal table in front of me!"and he burst into laughing.

It does take time and effort to transmute the venomous words one’s once loving spouse says. For me, I had complete trust and faith in my wife, and therefore her words had unfettered access into my belief system. That is why your rational view of self gets skewed or tumbled about.

I always assumed she was the person that knew me best, the one that had access to my rough corners and no matter how bad our M was, not once I considered giving up or seeking fun outside. I have met W since D that have told me I am a great man and have all it takes to make someone the happiest next to me, and yet my brain circles back to those hurtful words she told me over and over at home in Munich. I need to work harder on the source of my perception of myself and the values that guide me.

There are four paths we all walk - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. The first two, physical and intellectual, one can directly control - thoughts, actions, and reactions.

Emotions and feelings rise and fall. They are born and live in the non-rational realm of ourselves. And they are fleeting unless reinforced.

Beliefs. Those deeply held values and convictions, motivations for how and why one lives their life as they do, are very slow to change. It takes concerted purposefully effort to shift one’s convictions. That slow to alter is the very reason they make excellent headings for life. Strengthen those beliefs that serve, crafted convictions which you aspire to, and altered or discarded that which does not serve.

All four aspects of ourselves interact and exert influence upon all. Good physical labour influences feelings of happy, productive, sated, fulfillment, and so on. Positive thoughts encourage positive feelings and accompanying actions.

The same way negative begets negative. Feelings of depression lead to depressive thoughts and actions. Which in turn reinforce one’s feelings.

Beliefs are influenced as well, however they are most often more the underlying foundation of one’s life and choices (when followed or listened to, folks in crisis or emotional turmoil being an excellent example of running and hiding away from their value system).

The usual path towards healed and wholeness starts with that which we can control. We rationalize and do act as if. Intellect and physical activity. These directly controllable efforts influence our emotional self. This is the path of grief and loss, finding emotional understanding, acceptance.

The spiritual side, faith, belief, values, whatever one likes to call it, is deep within. You’ve likely hear the wise counsel of “answers will reveal themselves when you are calm”. This is most true. One can hear their deeply-held convictions when they are calm.

Like influencing one’s emotions state, thought and physical action can strengthen, craft, and alter one’s beliefs. It is a slow process. The transmuting of poisonous words for example. Getting to a place where those words have no power of you. We first understand that, then we even feel it, yet something still nags and tugs from within.

Altering a belief or value is a life altering event. After all, convictions are the underpinning of self. They are not fleeting like emotions, and not directly controllable like thoughts. The realization in organizing one’s belief system is actually organizing one’s self. Seeing and understanding the how and why of one’s life. It’s a life long pursuit.

When all four paths are aligned much peace and contentment is found.

I imagine this is the reason why when I could focus back on work, started reading all my great books and poured all my frustration into physical activity, I started seeing things from a different perspective and really building the new man I am now. I feel like I am missing the step when I fully forgive myself for past errors and can find peace in this new life, divorced and co parenting for the next X years.

Here I understand is where is need to make peace with my demons, live with those fears about exW and my future and realize that by living through them I will prove myself that I am much stronger than I believe. Instead of going back to a free or trauma mind, find peace with my post trauma life and the baggage I will carry from now on.

Now when I look at the past 3 years, something tells me my beliefs and core values where in the background always beating, like the heart in Poe's story, however my emotional desperation had blocked them. I would come here and read Steve's comment saying, Pack if your W had been unfaithful in the M, how would you have reacted? and then think, he is so damn right, what are you fighting for you tin-head! Same now with my career, I think a lot about how could it would be to move to the US and build a career in NY or CA but my core immediately brings me back to earth and shouts (not without the kids Pack, nothing will come in between you and them again). What I am trying to say is that the compass guided by my values is still there and I just had forgotten about it. All I need is techniques to overcome those thoughts and set my mind ahead.

I recently watched a great TEDx about overcoming heartbreak and it covered all the things this board provides. Get a life, stop idealizing the R (fog), think about exW flaws, fill up your PIES and recognize that you are emotionally a wreck and will be distracted for a longer period than you expected. I was watching the video and thinking about this forum and how lucky I am I had the drive to come and join this community.

We all have a finite amount of time to invest. And yes, finding that balance is tricky. Think quality of time over quantity of time.

This is great advice, I will continue to work on this. The challenge I face is that when I have all business meetings is the time when S9 needs some support with homework and S5 wants his afternoon snack. I tell myself always, there are 2 kinds of weeks, no kids and give it all at work, kids and accept that I cannot be nowhere as productive. I have learned to live like this. I run often when I dont have the kids, I handle my financial issues, get my haircut and so on those weeks.

It's funny because as a loving strong man, you now the quality time with them is what matters, but you also want to shine at work to be able to offer them a great home, travelling experience, the possibility to study abroad and hobbies to enjoy with you. At least I feel it this way, which is good because is a strong drive I have to perform at work and have a great career. However, I also know by the time I am in my 40s, S9 will be 20 and I guess maybe then I can move again and they will want to come with me, idk, I am just thinking.

This post has really given me fuel to refocus on Pack and my PIES. Clearly the emotional dimension is the one I need to polish the most now. I am on it!

Thanks DnJ

[Pack_19]

Same advice here. 10 years goes by in a blink of an eye. All my kids are now out of the house. Lots of free time to do whatever I want. You only have a short time with them while they are little... maximize it. Work will always be there, even after they are grown.

Also, include the kids in all the chores. Have a great time while doing each of them. Make the chores fun. Have music going and dance while sorting laundry. Have them involved in grocery shopping and picking out food for the week.

Two ideas from here. 1 I need to be more flexible and stop wanting everything to be perfect, just focus on enjoying my time with them. 2, more music and fun activities at home even when doing the chores. I might get a housekeeper when I am done paying the first 20% of the house and the pension to exW.

Last Friday I spent the night at hospital with S9 because he had an asthma crisis. The first time so the doctor made us stay to ensure he was doing well. It was the day I was picking them up so I message exW to tell her how come she had not let me know earlier. She replied that I always acted as if I cared more about our kids and that if I truly cared I would ensure I have a good R with her, their mom.

These messages always hit me hard. I know what I am doing, I don't want any R with her, I talk about the important issues with kids to her and I am going to be a rock after all she has done.

She came to see S9 briefly at night as only one person could stay and then in the morning. When he arrived he sent me a message reading "you are coming out right?", so I left for a quick coffee and let them alone some time. All I could think was I had just spent the night awaken next to S9, making sure he was ok and not scared, holding his hand and then she would just write to me with the same disrespect and apathy she has used since day 1 in our domestic separation. What I am trying to say is that again these experiences hurt me but at least this time I was thinking, this is my future, continue to do father things as my top priority but "alone". It is going to be me and them and it is going to feel strange but I can be very good at this!

That same day later I got a message from exW telling me I had forgotten to send the pension this month. Which, as I told my sister later, it was right but felt like a slap of cold water on my naive face, "hey pack! this is the W you are dealing with now, open your eyes you idiot!. I feel I did a great job as superdad, you guys cannot imagine how I smashed the WOD at crossfit yesterday thinking about it. I was one of the very few to finish it in time with heavy weights.

S9 is much better now, I am taking good care of them and taking them to the beach this week for some holidays we have so that he can stay away from all the pollen in the city.

I feel like I have had 3 past weeks of reverting to bad habits. thinking what W might think of me or might be doing and with whom, questioning if I really am a new and completely different man and thinking I was not focused at work. I will use cross-fit, running and my books as channels to go back to the place I was where kids are 1, pack is 2 and my PIES are 3, and there is nothing more in the horizon for now.

Have you seen the video from Jordan Peterson where he states that D with kids has a high probability of demolishing your life or a big part of it? What do you think about this statement. I think about it a lot, as in thinking I have very challenging conditions in my life and must be good to myself. Deep inside my heart I know I am great at shining in the face of a good challenge!

Thank you all,
((Hugs))
Pack

[SteveLW]

Pack, great post. I think you're killing it in the father department! And I've always liked your PIES. I envy your crushing it at CrossFit too!

Now, while I understand you're sentiment, your exW has a point. My W is the child of a very messy divorce. I've known her since she was in her 20s. I've watched her struggle her whole life because her mom and dad can't stand to be in the same room together. It has made all the events in her life so difficult.

I guess all I'm saying is that you don't have to be best friends with your ex, but for the kids sake you could at least try to get along. Be the bigger person. A lot of my father-in-law's bitterness was over the money he had to pay to my mother-in-law. Don't be that guy.

Just wanted to give you the perspective from a child of divorce's view. Other wise, keep up the awesome work you've been doing.

[Pack_19]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for coming to post. I try to be able to be there next to her but chatting to her, or being friendly just does not come natural. I am not sure if I will ever be able to do it...

Last weekend, S9 had his first communion celebration, I had to stand there next to ExW for the entire ceremony but I made it be all about S9. I was smiling at him, present and elegant as a man can be. But ExW would make funny comments about some gestures or situations and I just nodded along, I cannot do more right now.

In general I think I handled it well, but after the ceremony S9 and S4 went to have lunch with ExW and her family. I had lunch with my parents, sister and brother in law. They stood there telling me that it had been long enough and that I could not feel uncomfortable in that situation but instead treat her as if I had next to me a completely unknown person. I told them I was working on it and that it was still not easy form me because I feel these family events are strange to me. My dad told me I have still the image of an ideal family in my head, and I need to destroy it to move on.

My sister pointed out that ExW has had her lips injected with something (surgery or whatever) and asked me laughing if I had not noticed. I told her something was off but I do not pay attention to that. ExW was always talking about how she wanted to have her nose done and I would always tell her she was prefect as she was. First the tattoos, now this, she is making it easy for me to realize this is an entirely different person. Maybe thinking that the W I married to is dead, helps me move forward.

On the financial side, I know deep inside I have to let it go and treat it as something trivial. It has been so unfair Steve, I have been working for my family flawlessly since I was 22, and now this happens... Never did she thank me or express pride about that.

I will not be that man Steve.

2 more goals for Pack - Improve on your emotional strength, let go of my ideals. Frame the financial situation from the perspective of a happy, new man, who is learning to move on.

Thanks a lot Steve, back to becoming the best man I can be and my PIES.

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

I hope you are all healthy, my heart is always with everyone in this board.

I have not been posting actively but was instead in the background reading golden nuggets from old veterans and the new compilation by R2C (thanks for the work!). I have re-read my entire thread over again and I have read Sandi's original thread, how lucky I was to have her take interest in my sitch. Reading that some young men were taking her first drops of advice as too aggressive made me smile, it reminded me of the day she told me she hoped her posts wouldn't make me leave the forum and all I could think was, your advice is the best thing that could happen to me now. I imagine you have not heard from her, I miss her, I wish I could hug her and thank her in person.

I remain focused on my children, my PIES and building a new life for Pack. I have improved all my PRs in crossfit, I joined a competition in 3 weeks and I am preparing a second marathon. I am working on prioritizing the relationship with friends and relatives that allow me to grow emotionally and I still have that voice in my head helping me validate feelings and active listening on any chance I have. I am reading "Models" again and I just bought "The rational male". I have identified that I am strong in conversation and lifestyle when it comes to attracting high value women, but I need to work on approaching more and accepting rejection as a way to increase the number of women I am exposed to in my life. I also continue practicing my sexual kung-fu.

I have thought a lot about the last advice I got from you all on becoming the man for my kids, a presence so shining that all other models fade in comparison. I can tell they love spending time with me, they are excited about the new house and I am now planning a trip to disneyland paris with them and my sister. This summer I made sure they both took swimming lessons, it truly helped them get better. I am now in my summer break, I spend days with S9 on the padel surf board and yesterday I took him to the gokarts again. I had such a blast, when I am driving is like all else fades away, I am 100% focused on every braking point, every corner, the adrenaline of overtaking someone who is fast, feeling the car move...I have to work on my career and start a business so that I can go racing as a hobby, simple as that. I had a chat with S9 on bed last night, I asked him how he feels about shared custody and he told me he is tired of changing homes and carrying bags. I told him it was only a stage and that it will also be over and I told him all I care about right now is his happiness.

I go on dates occasionally, I can tell all my hard work and learning is paying back, I've had multiple women show strong interest on getting to know me better, even after I open up about the sitch with the kids. I just havent found that person that makes click in my brain at intellectual, emotional and physical level. She is out there somewhere, I just have to keep improving and be more opened to meeting women in places where I am likely to find that incredible person. I cannot wait to continue learning on the dynamics of R and how attraction works.

Some weeks ago I offered exW to have a longer visit with the kids because they had had swimming lessons, she stated she wanted to drop them early so that they would not go to bed late. I replied they were on holidays and it was fine, and got a feeling she had plans. When I picked them up, some random guy was calling her to the phone. I took the kids and said goodbye. 1 or 2 years ago this would have triggered an emotional reaction on me. I felt sad, but I was careful to not express it out and went home thinking I was lucky to have more time with the kids and that I deserve a woman that never phantoms the idea of replacing me how she has. I am moving on slowly, but ALWAYS making progress.

This week will be the 4 year anniversary since BD, I struggle a lot with how much time I have needed to start moving forward on my own. Maybe this is something we never fully recover from, even if as an individual you grow and improve beyond what you could imagine. Here are some ideas I got from reading all the golden nuggets, to keep me going.

1. When you arrive here you are seeking change in your spouse. However the ugly truth is that you are the only person you can change and it takes two willing spouses to R. Thus, your best approach is to come here seeking your own change, saving yourself, as nobody is coming for you and you are not attractive when you hit rock bottom.

2. Finding the DB forum is a tool so powerful it comes with a piece of responsibility. Here you learn about growth books, parenting, boundaries, social proof, attractiveness, gender differences...if you are given all that information, you have the responsibility to use it to improve your life and therefore that of your children.

3. Someone posted on Sandi's thread "I don't care how big of a bump on a log your husband has become, you are his wife. You helped create what he is today." This hit me hard, I believe people can change, maybe many of the issues I see in W were driven by my behavior and vice-versa. Don't judge your S for he/she has become during this suffering time, in all likelihood you were also lacking as an individual by the time you had the b#lls to post here.

4. I have read a lot about forgiveness, the price you pay for it and how you must move on with it. I don't think I could forgive exW for all her despise, accusations, infidelity and the havoc she caused in what I called our family life. I don't say this from a vengeful perspective, it is just a boundary I have to set and stick to. I remember reading how weak a man can look if you set a boundary and let it be stepped on over and over. Time to put Pack first, I will find someone who admires and respects the man I have become.

5. This is how I should have reacted when I was talking about fighting for my M, thinking whether to keep or not my ring on, praying for the chance to communicate with exW about our M and yet knowing there was OM1.
"well, sorry it's come to this, I wish you every happiness, it's been a great so many number of years, give my best to OM, but I'm outta here, like NOW!"

My PIES, guiding me everyday!

P - Improve my PRs in crossfit. Marathon under 3´30". Gain 5 Kg in muscle weight, keep my wardrobe fresh. Chin up and chest out, I should be proud of the new man I have become. Practice my sexual kung fu.
I - Start a company or build a career that allows me to go racing as a hobby. Improve my driving and riding skills. Learn about men and women.
E - Improve my active listen, show empathy, stay humble and work on improving myself as a man and father. Approach more women and start conversations. Take rejection as a positive filter. DETACH and enjoy being single in all that is means. DO NOT CHASE ANY WOMAN
S - Talk to God and be a role model for my kids. Keep growing, keep improving as a man.

Thank you all, sorry it took so long to post again, I see no changes in my sitch and think others could better use the time of our veterans.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pack

It’s wonderful to read your update. You are indeed doing well, and sincerely investing into you and your kids.

I had a chat with S9 on bed last night, I asked him how he feels about shared custody and he told me he is tired of changing homes and carrying bags.

I can certainly see his point. Can work to minimize the stuff needed for him to lug around. Toothbrush, shampoo, shoes, clothes, jackets, video game, and such at each place would lessen things a bit. Of course, once in a while there would need to be a reset as clothes get mixed around. Yet, one could basically just show up with the clothes on their back.

This week will be the 4 year anniversary since BD, I struggle a lot with how much time I have needed to start moving forward on my own. Maybe this is something we never fully recover from, even if as an individual you grow and improve beyond what you could imagine.

Everyone requires a different amount of time to find their footing and really get moving forward. These last four years were needed for you. Needed and invested into you. And yes, one can improve beyond their imagination. A destiny, I’ve no doubt about for you.

To that, forgiveness:

I have read a lot about forgiveness, the price you pay for it and how you must move on with it. I don't think I could forgive exW for all her despise, accusations, infidelity and the havoc she caused in what I called our family life. I don't say this from a vengeful perspective, it is just a boundary I have to set and stick to. I remember reading how weak a man can look if you set a boundary and let it be stepped on over and over. Time to put Pack first, I will find someone who admires and respects the man I have become.

You are correct, boundaries when made need to be enforced. For people will treat you the way you let them.

When we are first hurting and our emotions are all over the place, it is really difficult to know what and where to place a boundary and how to enforce it. Eventually we become whole and healed, and some of those boundaries become less so.

To be clear, it’s not that we accept disrespectful behaviour, we just more shrug and move on. After all, we can only control ourselves. And with growth, detachment, understanding, empathy, compassion, and forgiveness; behaviours and words which once cut to the bone, no longer sting.

We still have rock solid boundaries, they are just more meshed with who we are, our character, instead of some external idea or thing we turn to in those times. Such strength of character lives in convictions and beliefs and values.

Ah the realm of beliefs. The fourth of life’s paths - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual.

Each of these paths is separate to the others. We have direct control over two: physical and intellectual. We can control our actions and our reactions. We can control our thoughts.

All paths influence each other and are subject to influence both internal and external. One’s beliefs and convictions can crafts/influence certain thoughts and feelings in a given situation. One can control/do certain tasks to promote healthy emotional well being. One can think positively to influence their deeply held values. It is quite a web.

Beliefs, unlike emotions, are very slow to change. It’s this almost unchanging that makes them excellent life headings; once one organizes their convictions. Strengthen that which serves, craft that which you aspire to, and discard or alter that which doesn’t serve.


“…forgiveness, the price you pay for it and how you must move on with it.”

I do not understand what you mean by the price you must pay. Forgiveness is writing paid in full upon your XW’s invoice.

One finds forgiveness in letting go. Letting go of the need for vengeance, retribution, retaliation, compensation, and so on. The effort to let go is difficult to find, for it is a “muscle” we/society doesn’t often use. However, forgiveness requires far less energies than holding a grudge. In fact, forgiveness requires next to no energy, once you find it. You just live it. You believe it.

Forgiveness is most definitely for you. The cost, price, effort of forgiveness is paid back multi-fold to you! I guarantee it.


“I don't think I could forgive exW for all her despise, accusations, infidelity and the havoc she caused in what I called our family life.”

You can and do control what you think. As long as you think you cannot forgive, you won’t.

Our minds and hearts are always listening, and they will craft our reality as we ask. The first step in crafting is imaging. We have to be open to the possibility, be able to imagine and see, that we can find forgiveness for our ex spouse (or whomever).

Next, forgiveness is not what you likely think it is. My tag line: Love the person, forgive the sin.

Trying to forgive someone, the person, places one upon a higher moral ground. How misguided, deciding who is to be forgiven, who is worthy of such. No one can see all ends. Only God can forgive the soul.

Think good person, who has done bad things.

Love the sinner, forgive the sin.

You don’t forgive XW for all her despise, accusations, infidelity and the havoc she caused; you forgive the despise, accusations, infidelity and the havoc. You forgive the transgressions, directly.

Betrayal is the worst thing one person can do to another. My XW betrayed me, our kids, family, friends, and most of all herself. Yet, she did not grow up in a vacuum. I know some of what she endured during her informative years. I know some of her pains and torments. Yet, I know not all of her suffering. Nor do I see all. Therefore I cannot judge her. One can choose to carry those hurts and betrayals around, or one can let go and work to forgive.

I found forgiveness really early on in my situation. It came during a hellish vivid nightmare of XW suffering eternal damnation. I bolted awake from the utter shock. It was in the wee hours of the night, like 2:00 am, I dropped to my knees beside the bed, right then and there in the dark, and I prayed and begged God to forgive her, for she did not deserve such fate. Oh my goodness, the hubris, me a mere mortal telling God to forgive her.

I realized I wanted no hand in her fate, repercussions, consequences, comeuppance, etc, in this life or the next.

Some incredible things internally shift and take hold with such a viewpoint.

This was months after bomb drop, with every night thus far being a fitful poor sleep. After that night, that epiphany, I’ve slept soundly every single night.

There is a journey, IMHO. Understanding, compassion, empathy, kindness, caring, acceptance, and forgiveness. Not strictly in that order, nor even the entire steps/milestones, just a rough guide. Like how everyone needs a certain amount of understanding before they can/will let go, we need a certain amount of understanding and empathy and compassion before we can/will forgive.

Love the person, forgive the sin.

I do hope you can imagine the peace and contentment that is possible.

Maybe this is something we never fully recover from, even if as an individual you grow and improve beyond what you could imagine.

I think it depends upon one’s definition of recover. We do not go back to how we once were. That naivety is lost (and will also need to be grieved). We can return to a normal state of mental and emotional health and strength. In fact, I think most folks will surpass what they once were.

So do we fully recover? No, we actually get better. We go beyond. We become.

Be better, not bitter.

Have an awesome day Pack.

D

[Pack_19]

hi DnJ,

Thanks a lot for your reply. I can see many of the points you raise, specially the importance of forgiving actions and not people, I never meant to imply any kind of moral superiority here. I was a very deficient man myself when DB came and I had made mistakes both in how I treated xW and how I treated myself.

The price of forgiveness is paid by the person who is forgiving, I mean it in the sense of accepting what has happened and not expecting any kind of compensation, retaliation, explanation... simply moving on with the certainty that those were things you were bound to experience and taking the learning from them. On that sense, I think forgiveness is a hard subject in that, as you very well say, it is a muscle we dont often train or exercise.

Regarding your point of forgiving the actions and separating them from the person, I am trying to. I just cannot find any action or attitude in xW inviting me to see her on a new light were I can just be kind to her. Maybe I need to be the bigger person here, I will think about it and work to make it happen.

Agree on the recovery side of this, I probably meant this is something that will come with us for years to come. You go through hell, touch the flames many times, and then use that pain to look inside and change/improve the things that were wrong in the first place. I would not change the man I have become for 20 chances to make my M work anew. That is how powerful the message in this board is.

Thanks a lot D, I will follow up with a post on something I wanted to share!

((hugs)) Pack

[Pack_19]

hi all,

I hope you are all great and continue to improve others' lives. There is something I wanted to share, to collect support and let go of frustration.

With our new divorce settlement I pushed for us to exchange custody Mondays at school. However, when I wanted to implement it, I talk to the school director and she told me they did not have lockers to hold S9 and S5 books. So I thought, I dont want to make them carry bags with clothes and books every Monday, it is fine if we continue to do it Sundays.

Few days ago I got an email from xW where she stated that we were going to start exchanging Mondays and there was no need to exchange clothes anymore. I had no uniforms for school, so I took a couple of days to reply and explain to her that I thought it was unnecessary to buy more clothes (after all, I end up paying for most of them and I am being 100% honest here) and had discussed it with school.

She proceeded to send me a mail that seemed to have been redacted by a lawyer. She said we were going to go down this path, as stated in our D settlement and she told me I was not putting kids first, I was asking them about her private life (meaning OMs I guess), I was avoiding communication with her and poisoning their minds to think they are a lower priority to her. Then she told me to stop this fight and move on.

I had to pull all my strength and rediscovered confidence to firstly dismiss any thoughts that she was right and I was indeed hurting my children and secondly to not reply and bite the bait for a fight. I wrote back and told her my concern was that I did not have uniforms but I would buy more and I told her all I cared about her life was her role as my children mother.

I no longer think about her life or getting her back, never ever have I intended our children to get in between and I honestly have all my focus on them being happy. S9 is really clever and perceptive, he is in between all of this and I dont know how I can do things better. I could be kind, but she is still going to throw these bombs at me whenever she wants, I refuse to show her something different than a new and strong man that knows his principles and has strong boundaries.

Yesterday we exchanged the kids after a visit, she made a comment about S5 clothes and I replied something dry because xW has lost 2 pairs of beach flip flops I bought this year for S5 (I said, ok then they are lost, I am sure I dont have them and I sent them to you during summer holidays) and said goodbye. 2 mins later she sent me a message telling me to not disrespect her in front of the kids. All I could think of was that poisoned email accusing me of all that BS. I guess I did not handle the situation well. BUt at least I have had the emotional stability to think what I want to write and do.

Today I purchased a bunch of uniform clothes for both S9 and S5. I refuse to give her the power to tumble the new self respect I have. I will have all I need for my children at home and be grateful we dont have to see each other every sunday.

On the rest of points. Pack and the kids are the centre of my life. After the crossfit competition I went to, I got so much motivation to improve that I have smashed all my PRs and my friends keep telling me how much I am improving. I am getting stronger and have abs showing out!! hahahahaha I have started building a business with a good friend based on all the cloud usage knowledge I have developed professionally and I am about to read The rationale male. I am still working on active listening and my R with the kids.

Oh and I recently met a woman who drives me crazy. She is only 27 and when I told her about the kids I think I made her freak out a bit. Things are going great in person, but she has asked me to slow down because she has a different emotional pace. I have fears that my personal situation might be too much, but I am working on thoughts that I am a seriously valuable man and I can be the most attractive person with all my life circumstances. Maybe you can offer me some guidance on how to meet someone younger and move things slowly when you have kids.

I have had a small step back, but on the positive side, it is much smaller and I didnt buy into the drama. I keep working, I keep improving, I keep saving Pack after D. Thank you all, I cannot wait to hear your opinions and suggestions.

[Card29]

To be clear, it’s not that we accept disrespectful behaviour, we just more shrug and move on. After all, we can only control ourselves. And with growth, detachment, understanding, empathy, compassion, and forgiveness; behaviours and words which once cut to the bone, no longer sting.

I'm in my second DB process. D#1 was 9 years ago, and I was lucky to find this message board. In hindsight, the most shocking thing was how little I cared when I eventually confirmed OM. I suspected it for the first few months. It was my biggest fear in life. Left by your W for OM. The insecurity that can drum up in a man is unreal. But months after BD, I had a light bulb moment. I'd cried and agonized enough. In one split second, I was suddenly over W. I never had a moment of hesitation to move on with my life at that point. A few weeks later, OM was confirmed to me. First by xW's best friend, then by xW. A confessional of sorts. It had the emotional impact of finding out she bought a new pair of shoes. I truly did not care. It was almost nice to confirm my suspicions.

Everyone has their own journey. Pack, maybe you will need to live with that boundary for a long time or forever. But don't give up on the idea of permanently forgiving it. I can't even give advice for how to get there, because I just did. You can't just "forgive" and be done with something that personally destructive. You have to truly feel it. But if you ever wrestle with the idea of fully forgiving, try to be pro-forgiveness for your own sake. It's an unbelievable weight off of your shoulders if you can truly let go.

Congrats on all of your progress. It sounds like your story is one for the DB history books, even with the story still being written.

Also, I, too, miss Sandi. She was there for me in 2014. I'm so glad much of her wisdom is pinned at the top of the board.

[Pack_19]

Hi all,

I can't believe it has been over a year since I last posted. DB continues to be part of my daily routine. While others might listen to music at home, I still listen to my audio with the golden tips I’ve gathered from all of you, especially Sandi, Steve, and LH. It helps me reinforce the image in my head of the man I want to be and the idea that there is only one way ahead.

Where can I begin? xW and I maintain a business-like relationship around the kids and finances, and that’s all. Whenever I drop off or pick up the kids, I focus on them and the fun things they did with their mom. I ALWAYS leave first and look her in the eyes when she has something to share. I have learned to love and respect the man I am becoming, and that attitude comes naturally.

A few months ago, the kids came home talking about mom's friend, how they visited him, and what they did with him. I stayed strong, remembering Gekko’s comment about being the one and only man, such a powerful presence that all others fade in comparison. I am reaching a place where hearing about OMs does not affect my peace; I never thought I’d be able to say that.

Today marks the last month I have to pay alimony, and that has driven me to seek support here again. We’ve often said that I cannot feel guilty for what she offers or doesn't offer the kids when they’re with her. We’ve also said that no matter how much I pay her, it wouldn’t change the fact that she is free to spend it however she wants. I am working on reframing my thoughts: I will always give my children what they need—that is all I can do. Her financial situation is no longer my concern. It has been five years since BD, and she left me at home. LH once said not to become bitter over money, not to be that man, and I keep that thought in mind. Yet here I am, still wondering if this makes me selfish...

I have many thoughts about the sacrifices I made to be close to S11 and S6. They truly are the best part of my life, which shows in every trip, party, weekend outing, and bedtime reading session. However, I feel like I have distanced myself from the ambitious young man I was in my 20s who wanted to live in a large metropolitan city and have an amazing career. Starting a business from Spain in cloud artificial intelligence is proving challenging, and balancing it with my full-time job is consuming my days. But I see it as the only way to reconnect with that part of me.

Recently, I read *The Rational Male* and am now reading *Meditations* by Marcus Aurelius. I’m not sure how much of the theory in the former is true, but the idea that a man reaches his peak attractiveness in his early 30s (due to various aspects of life aligning) stuck with me. I remind myself that these are the best times of Pack as a man, and that makes me feel strong and confident. I’ve been on many dates and continue learning about relationship dynamics, but I’m learning to be happy in my own shoes, as no woman has truly clicked on all levels for me. My sister got married two months ago. When I saw the pictures of me there, hugging S11 and S6, looking fit (daily CrossFit paying off), it all clicked. This is how my family looks now. I don’t regret anything I did with xW; everything I did was with the best intentions, given the limited knowledge and experience I had.

The new home will be ready in about a year, and the kids are thrilled about getting their own rooms and a place for all their toys. This month, I got my A license to ride any motorbike and keep improving my personal bests in CrossFit and running. GAL, GAL, GAL like a madman! Last November, I traveled to Disneyland Paris with the kids, my parents, and my sister. Probably the best money spent in years—what an amazing time we had. I can't wait to enjoy Christmas with them.

I keep moving forward, I keep improving, and I’m not done yet.

My PIES:

P - Gain 5kg of muscle, improve my marathon PB (sub 3:30), practice my sexual kung-fu, and continue to dress with my own style.
I - Build my own business, learn more about investments, improve my motorbike riding and car racing skills, and understand relationship dynamics.
E - Improve active listening and empathy, focus on the happiness from what I have, forgive xW, and detach.
S - Learn about oriental religion, talk to God and my family more often, and spend more time in nature.

Posting here always feels incredible. I will review newcomers’ posts. If there’s someone you think I could listen to and help, please let me know. I can’t wait to hear from you all.

Thanks for giving me some of your time again.
Pack

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pack

I’m glad you dropped in. It’s good to hear from you.

I am reaching a place where hearing about OMs does not affect my peace; I never thought I’d be able to say that.

Well done!

Pretty sweet, isn’t it?

Today marks the last month I have to pay alimony

Yay! The extra funds will be welcomed I’m sure.

and that has driven me to seek support here again.

Let’s have a look.

We’ve often said that I cannot feel guilty for what she offers or doesn't offer the kids when they’re with her. We’ve also said that no matter how much I pay her, it wouldn’t change the fact that she is free to spend it however she wants. I am working on reframing my thoughts: I will always give my children what they need—that is all I can do. Her financial situation is no longer my concern. It has been five years since BD, and she left me at home. LH once said not to become bitter over money, not to be that man, and I keep that thought in mind. Yet here I am, still wondering if this makes me selfish...

Yes, reframing/controlling your thoughts will alter/clarify things. In that vein, a few underpinnings you should consider:

- “I cannot feel guilty for what she offers or doesn't offer the kids when they’re with her.”

You can feel however you feel. For you do and will. Stating you cannot, when you can or do, leads to confusion and not accepting of said feelings. And it is hard to move forward with such.

I am not culpable, nor responsible, for what she offers or doesn’t offer the kids when they’re with her.

That statement is accurate and correct. You can feel all kinds of things. Acknowledge them. Let them go. In the end, you control you. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions. Not XW or her action/inaction.

- “no matter how much I pay her, it wouldn’t change the fact that she is free to spend it however she wants.”

Sort of. She is free to spend alimony however she wishes to. Child support is supposed to be allocated to the children and their expenses. She is not completely free to do whatever she wishes with those funds. That being said, policing that would be a nightmare. And not your job.


Yes, her financial situation is no longer your concern. Or responsibility. Or Problem. It’s not. So you don’t need to fix it. (Yay!)


“Yet here I am, still wondering if this makes me selfish...”

I guess you have some feelings of being selfish. Remember, feelings do not equate to facts. Such feelings are likely stirred up due to this being the last month of alimony.

Rationalizing, looking at the facts of things, helps quell and understand the emotions and their triggers. The what and why of your feelings.

You were married for five years, and paid the requisite alimony due to the duration of the marriage.

I am suspecting XW’s financial picture is less robust than your’s. You’re building a house, making a home, with bedrooms for the kids. Starting a business. Living and loving life. You’ve worked hard to get here. No need to feel guilty or selfish about your efforts, nor the dividends now being paid out from those efforts and hard work.

Or, if XW’s financial picture is brighter than your’s. That’s ok. Let it go.

Either way, alimony is complete. Just child support - and maybe with 50/50 custody there is none, or minimal.

I have many thoughts about the sacrifices I made to be close to S11 and S6. They truly are the best part of my life, which shows in every trip, party, weekend outing, and bedtime reading session. However, I feel like I have distanced myself from the ambitious young man I was in my 20s who wanted to live in a large metropolitan city and have an amazing career. Starting a business from Spain in cloud artificial intelligence is proving challenging, and balancing it with my full-time job is consuming my days. But I see it as the only way to reconnect with that part of me.

Everyone makes sacrifices. Oftentimes, those sacrifices are made unwittingly and unknowingly.

People sacrifice their financial future to go on a trip they can’t really afford, purchase a car, or whatever. Some folks made life sacrifices by not attending class back in high school. Some sacrifice their time with family for their career. And on and on.

We cannot have it all! That’s the big lie. Yet, people run around, live their lives, like they can have it all.

Unwittingly and unknowingly. People ignore and defer the cost for immediate gratification. Yet, the bill comes due. It always does.

You see your sacrifices. The cost. The reason why. The choice. It truly is sacrificing one thing for another.

The luckily few, see this. See the cost and choice. The wise few make the choice. It’s within your control. Ah, accountability. If there ever was a bane of modern society. lol. Being accountable. Owning your actions and choices. Even those you made unwittingly.

Anyhow, you see this. And with that vision, sacrifice becomes investment. You choose to invest in something, rather than sacrifice something. Yes, it’s a bit of semantics, and yet more. When one accepts they cannot have it all, they can choose to invest in what they truly need and/or desire.

Kids and their futures for example. What are you willing to sacrifice for such an investment? What is a sensible sacrifice? Fully realizing that your financial success has a factor upon their future too.

Of course, your most precious resource is time. One of my life-long tenets was/is, “when given a choice between time and money, always choose time”.

One of my best, well one I am most proud of, investments/sacrifices was paying off my mortgage. I could see the writing on the wall from my employer, and the pressures they could, and were, exerting upon their staff. Forcing them to move.

I (and XW) purposefully chose to forgo a few years (seven actually) of vacation and get the mortgage paid off. And out from under the heal of my employer’s boot. We still had vacations, just more local is all.

After those years, with the extra monthly funds, the street was much easier. The extra years of said monies funding many vacations, trips, kids activities, and their future schooling. And yes, I/we did manage to remain in our house, even with all the shenanigans from my employer. I did have to commute for over two decades however. Sacrifice/investment. There is always a cost. I made mine with purpose.

Anyhow, just some musings of a single Dad of four grown successful kids. (With my first Grandkids on the way. And twins!! Gosh, Grandpa DnJ.)

Have a great day.

D