Thanks, DnJ (and Rockon for "liking" the advice). Yes, in the past, I've politely asked W that we discuss marital topics outside of work hours. Often we would sit together or be together running errands, laying in bed reading or watching TV together, and nothing would come up. Then, in the middle of work, I'd get a call or an email involving a criticism, an anxious follow-up/reminder, or (4 years ago) heading for D-related issues. I needed the boundary because these things were derailing my work day and, though my marriage is more important, it felt unfair to be surprise-attacked. Thanks, also, Thornton, for the additional reminder. All responses are helpful.
DnJ I agree about trying to avoid being painted as the target/source of all these issues. Hard not to speak up for oneself, but I'm continuing to offer empathy and validation.
Talked yesterday. Went over how we got here and I worked to actively listen, validate and, where appropriate, indicate brief, respectful disagreement about 1-2 items (recalling not having more kids being a mutual decision AND acknowledging obnoxious/inconsiderate things my mom has said over time while knowing from private conversations with my mom that she likes W quite a bit, finds her to be kind, and a good mother to our daughter). I kept these statements super brief and simply said "I understand why you feel that way. My memory/understanding somewhat differs."
For example, I indicated I recognize W sees Mom's comments at times as obnoxious or inconsiderate. They are. I shared, however, that mom likes W quite a bit, thinks W is a kind person, and a good mom, and has defended W in the past when I may grumble about something.
Mom is early 70s, unlikely to change, and I've made it clear to both people that W comes first. Mom is doing better but some things are just habitual for my mom, part of our family culture (we all spoke pretty freely to one another when I was growing up, fought hard, got things off our chests, and still loved one another). W's family was more conflict averse/avoidant so interactions with my mom's side can be tough for W, especially with social anxiety too.
In any event, I'm revisiting lawyers from 5 years ago and will respect that W wants to move forward. I'll keep following DB principles (worked the 1st time, at least to piece together 5 years). From my perspective, W is unwilling and possibly cognitively unable to fix things between us, even though she acknowledged loving me as a partner. Can only do what is w/i my control so back to GALing, detachment, Sandi's rules, etc. I go. I wish you all the best and appreciate your thoughts and reactions.
Great day out with friends yesterday. Super helpful way to reboot. Unfortunately, another close friend's mother passed away. Considering memorial and funeral are next week, would it be consistent with DB principles and detachment to NOT include W in attending? It feels harsh, but with her pursuing D, it seems as good a place as any to start cutting the cord. Thanks in advance for your feedback and I wish everyone a good day.
I’m guessing the close friend was close to both you and W. I’d let W know of the Mother’s passing, and that you are attending the service. Say nothing of your wants or wishes for her to attend or to not attend. Let W decide her course and do what she will.
I’m six years passed BD. XW and I have nothing to do in each other’s lives. Still, I’d notify her upon the death of one of my parents. I’d not prevent her from paying her respects, if she felt she would like to. She was a daughter to them, they were parents to her, for 30 years.
Perhaps, your W would want to pay her respects. Or perhaps not. I’d let her have agency to determine that.
Have a great Sunday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks, DnJ. I should've been clearer. The friend is my college roommate. W has known him for ~18 years though with her social anxiety she's spent progressively less time around him and his family (special events here and there over the years). Still, I like the general idea of simply stating the memorial service and funeral information and leaving it at that. I appreciate the clear guidance during an otherwise cloudy time in my mind. Have a great Sunday too!
One more question for today: would it be a bit of a 180 and also detaching if I were to create and send W a list of property/items for us to start divvying up? Recall this is our 2nd time discussing D and the 180 would be not fighting it and, instead cooperating by taking the initiative to start thinking about this. Doing this also seems consistent with detaching, acknowledging W's choice, and supporting her in executing that decision. Thanks, as always.
Talked with a close friend whose W has similar issues with social anxiety. He recommended against proactively sharing a property division workbook because he didn't see a clear way it would help me. Talking with two attorneys today to make sure that, while I'm DBing, I'm also getting some balanced perspective to protect myself and my daughter if things continue towards D. So many thoughts running through my head: why is W so unwilling to work things out? I hear her saying she's "not cut out for relationships" and see how much she works to avoid conversations about sensitive topics or conflict. My brain says to keep DBing. My heart just wants to say "Let's fix this!" but I know it would lead me down a currently cheeseless tunnel. I hate these ups and downs.
As men, it ingrained in us to fix things. Leaving things unfixed goes against our nature.
But rest assured, the tried and true recipe for success, is time and space.
And remember, anything that comes out of her mouth is how she's feeling in that particular moment. Feelings change like the wind.
It's quite possible she one day she will say "I love being in love and I'm meant to be in a relationship". Give her the time and space to come to that conclusion on her own.
What she is doing is simply never going to make sense, because she is operating purely on emotions.
And as we've all been told, making decisions based on emotions is not a good idea, because emotions can change. She is doing whatever she can to assure herself that won't happen.
Pretty much all of us on this board who are being left behind--both men and women--are looking at the situation logically and from a growth mindset. Those leaving are not using logic and reason; they are running away based on fear and self-defeatism. How many times have you heard her say, "I can't...(fill in rest of sentence here)."
When some one says "I can't," they've lost the battle already.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
would it be a bit of a 180 and also detaching if I were to create and send W a list of property/items for us to start divvying up? Recall this is our 2nd time discussing D and the 180 would be not fighting it and, instead cooperating by taking the initiative to start thinking about this. Doing this also seems consistent with detaching, acknowledging W's choice, and supporting her in executing that decision.
“…if I were to create and send W a list…”
I’d not promote the divorce. Let her do the heavy lifting. Don’t put huge boulders in her path, yet not pave it either. You respond to her is all.
Let her take lead on crafting a list. Then you negotiate. In the end, “we” create a list of property/items to divvy up.
Divorce is about two things, kids and assets. (Some of the following depends on your locales guidelines, which your L will guide you through.)
Custody has a default, usually 50/50, unless some circumstances warrant otherwise. This arrangement is open to negotiation as well as all the marital assets.
Something you can currently do, and should do, behind the scenes: Craft a three lists for yourself. The first is of items you will fight tooth and nail for. These are the dealbreaker “wants”, those things that you’ll take her to court for. Stuff you’ll not settle for losing. Make another list of things you don’t much care about one way or another. And a third list that is the in-between stuff. Things you like, yet not dealbreaker important.
When it comes to negotiating, keep your list of assigned importance to yourself. Let W lead and talk. Her lists, her importance, will be different from your’s. Each of the both of your’s “great” deals will appear different from each others perspective.
At times, negotiations takes some finesse. A less than amicable spouse is much more likely to agree to something they propose. Agree to something they feel they are getting a good deal on. Correction, feel they are getting the better deal on. Even then, some will would burn it all down just in spite. Reason to let them lead, IMHO.
Anyhow, aside from custody, you’ll likely find that not many items are truly on your “dealbreaker we’re going to court” list.
When crafting these lists, if you were to also place what the monetary value is beside each item, then you’ll have a better handle on things as well. It’s really good to have this homework done when you are calm and rational, instead of in the heat of the moment.
“…the 180 would be not fighting it and, instead cooperating by taking the initiative to start thinking about this.”
Fighting begets fighting. So yes, fighting is not the best productive path.
Cooperating is working towards the same end, the same goal. Be clear with yourself, you do not want the same goal as W. You don’t want to be divorced. So, you just respond to her.
Collaborating is when people work together to create something. That something is an amicable resolution to the business side of things. You can meet your goal and W can meet her goal.
Cooperating vs collaborating might sound like just wording. It’s deeper than that. W wants a divorce. You want a life after this. A future.
Her focus is breaking things up/apart. Your focus is limiting the damage.
You and W cannot cooperate as your goals are different. For you and her the outcome would be: win/lose, or lose/win, or lose/lose.
Collaboration often finds a resolution, that win/win, when there are multiple goals and focuses. Think more I’ll collaborate with her, rather than I’ll initiate and lead the collaboration.
Just some fodder for you. A mindset, a method, for working to resolve a business deal gone bad.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
