Thank you. Stuff just went down hill for him last night. i remained calm and collected. More screaming, foot stomping and door slamming with all of the "no one cares if I am around anyway". I didn't react to this and he yelled at our 8yo daughter that she was a quitter in front of everyone making her cry and left in the middle of her and my sons game only minutes after arriving. Then when he got home he sat in his truck and seemingly cried for about 20 min before coming in the house and then sat in the dark living room all by himself in silence. Then My daughter had a anxiety attack this morning and he was screaming about how ridiculous she was on the phone to me because he had to drive the mile and a half to school to talk and possibly pick her up. It just seems to be on a downward spiral that he is grasping at anything he can to keep from falling. I know I can not go down there with him and he needs it to turn around but it is killing to see.
I have read everywhere not to confront to the fact you know they are still in contact and to just let it run and fall apart on its own, but for how long?
A crisis is a horrible thing. Affairs need to run their course. Trying to break them up usually leads to an “us against the world” strengthening of their illicit bond.
Affairs are based in fantasy. And it is near impossible to kill a fantasy. Why? Because it is not real. It is in one’s mind. Reality, consequences, interventions, slaps in the face, whatever, all fall short and can be, will be, ignored. MLCers are running. Hard and fast. Until their pain of keeping such illicit behaviour alive outweighs their pain of ending it.
As for how long.
Originally Posted by jessieht
He wouldn't even go to a friends house for our daughters birthday dinner. He said he didn't want to be around anyone. He has also started self victimizing with anything said or done saying we dont want him at home and non of us love him, he should just leave. Not sleeping hardly at all and just other odd stuff like whispering to himself and talking to himself a lot. and not in an external processing way. like full angry conversations with himself. Very paranoid and thinks everyone especially me are out to take hime for everything. the kids have also seen him crying a few times. Could this be the slide down to rock bottoms basement? I hate to see that for him but know it has to happen for him to start to walk out of it.
No one can know how long it will last. The crisis person has their demons and trauma(s) to work through. They have their substandard toolbox of coping mechanisms to first build up. And they have all their running behaviours (affairs) to face as well. Quite a mountain to summit.
That being said, your H is exhibiting a significant slide downward. This is indicative of slowing the running and starting to look inward. Perhaps this behaviour will last, perhaps it will pause for a time and restart. H’s progress is mostly internal and hidden from view. To see such significant suffering leads credence that there is something pretty big going on inside.
You are correct, H needs to hit rock bottom. He is on his way by the sounds of it. Nasty stuff, isn’t it? Hard to watch. Hate to see it. However, it’s needed. Be kind and cordial and leave him to God’s hands.
Originally Posted by jessieht
[I] just tell him I hear him and understand and am sorry he feels that way.
Good for you.
Perhaps a tip, don’t tell him you understand. Just let him know you hear.
Folks in deep depression have a very hard time believing that anyone understands how they feel. In fact, most times they do not want to be understood; they’re not ready to be understood. As such, statements of understanding usually have a detrimental effect and push the depressed person away. Just be empathic and let him speak and be heard. And of course, stick to your boundaries on disrespect.
Originally Posted by jessieht
do people really come back from stuff like this? It seems so hopeless that he will ever turn around or wake up.
Yes folks do come back from this.
I believe that near everyone can come back. It’s a matter of do they have enough sand left in their hourglass. Some take years, some take decades, and some run out of time.
How, or more accurately, who they return as is unknown.
A crisis is a midlife transition gone way off the rails. A midlife transition leads to inner changes, just as all life’s stages/transitions do. Finding their way through their crisis reconciles long ago trauma(s) and transitions, and has them growing up from when they were emotionally stunted. A person exiting their crisis, or any transition, is not who they were when they entered it.
Most folks, crisis or otherwise, exit more mellow, refined, easy going. Some, especially those with more life regrets than accolades/accomplishments (a trend that society is seemingly on) exit more bitter and angry. It’s pretty easy to see those who have found peace and contentment is their golden years, and those who have not.
Interestingly, us LBS, with all the pain and sorrow and horrific events, usually sees the golden opportunity placed before them. I think most grow, and become whole and healed, and find peace and contentment from their most, at first, unwanted situations.
Originally Posted by jessieht
Stuff just went down hill for him last night. i remained calm and collected. More screaming, foot stomping and door slamming with all of the "no one cares if I am around anyway". I didn't react to this and he yelled at our 8yo daughter that she was a quitter in front of everyone making her cry and left in the middle of her and my sons game only minutes after arriving. Then when he got home he sat in his truck and seemingly cried for about 20 min before coming in the house and then sat in the dark living room all by himself in silence. Then My daughter had a anxiety attack this morning and he was screaming about how ridiculous she was on the phone to me because he had to drive the mile and a half to school to talk and possibly pick her up. It just seems to be on a downward spiral that he is grasping at anything he can to keep from falling. I know I can not go down there with him and he needs it to turn around but it is killing to see.
(((Hugs)))
Most MLCers become terrible parents. They are so consumed and lash out/ignore everyone and everything. Especially those who go against their narrative.
Oh my goodness, the stuff my XW did to our kids. She, oddly, blamed and attacked them much more than me. Stalking the kids, arguing, seeing her own daughter as a rival, trying to pick up/flit with the boys at the high school track meet, yelling at son, ignoring another son’s birthday, just to name a few. Crazy stuff!
This last weekend we had a birthday party for my Dad, son, and DIL, eleven of us there, lots of fun. Some stories came up about old times with Mom after BD. One was when she went to the grocery store where my youngest son and daughter worked (all four of my kids worked there over the years) and was digging through the Christmas oranges. She was opening the boxes to find the tasty ones. She professed could see the aura of the oranges. So, there she was, multiple boxes open, picking, examining, and moving the oranges about to make one good box of oranges. Of course, can’t forget when she went shopping in only some very short shorts and a bra, or did her lawn mowing job at 10:00pm in pink thigh high leggings, bra, and work boots. The noise woke up her grass mowing client and she was told to not mow at night. lol. So much wild crazy stuff over these years!
Some advice I got when I first got here and I really took to heart: It only takes one strong stable parent.
In my situation it was very clear that Mom was not Mom anymore. She threw the kids away. She wanted no responsibility for them, financial or otherwise. Certainly heartbreaking. Yet I, the kids, we moved forward and healed.
MLCers have the attention span of a gnat. They forget appointments, miss birthdays, and so on. For anything critical I’d not leave it to H. Make arrangements to ensure kids are picked up or looked after or whatever.
The yelling at them, and wild behaviours of Dad, is a source of difficult conversations. Be open and honest, and age appropriate of course. Kids need answers and will find them elsewhere if we do not offer/provide them. The internet, their friends, their imagination, are some vectors of such “answers” and explanations. It’s better if you are involved. Lead and they will follow. Gently steer. Be their living example.
You are doing really well. Keep it up.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
WOW!!! the mowing and shopping in a bra story made me laugh a bit. It is odd because I remember a time my dad a marine corps veteran went through a time of wearing very short cut of nasty ratty jean shorts and walking with a cain when he didnt even need a cain.(my mom now tells me that is when he was going through an MLC). So it made me laugh when my Husband also a marine vet started wearing THE SAME SHORTS!!! it is so embarrassing and he never met my dad so it was a total coincidence. This is a man that was always pressed and starched and when this started he would wear these shorts to christmas dinner. the frays on them hang down to his knees but they are much much to short. He is cutting down on wearing them now but they still make there way out in public some days.
DnJ and I have, like all of the other posters, have experienced some very difficult things when it comes to MLCers. They do not operate logically. Everything is emotional for them. They are like 13 year olds who have hormones going nuts full throttle or better yet, 2 year olds that are going through that period of time. They are depressed and do not understand why they feel the way they do. They lash out at others because they are the people they feel safest lashing out at. None of this is personal towards you and your child.
Now about his behavior towards your daughter. When he is doing that crazy making stuff and saying those things to her, call him on it. Do not allow him to brow beat your child. This is exactly the type of behavior he experienced as a child and you do not want your child to feel less than good. He is projecting on to you and your daughter what happened to him. Call him on that behavior as it is not acceptable and then you and your daughter walk away.
They truly become the mirror image of the person you love and knew, i.e., the exact opposite. In his own way, he maybe he's hoping you will toss him out. He needs to leave on his own so that he can't point the finger at you for putting him out.
Hang in there! I am so sorry he's acting out and saying those things to your daughter. I pray that this weekend will be quieter for you and your daughter.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
DnJ and I have, like all of the other posters, have experienced some very difficult things when it comes to MLCers. They do not operate logically. Everything is emotional for them. They are like 13 year olds who have hormones going nuts full throttle or better yet, 2 year olds that are going through that period of time. They are depressed and do not understand why they feel the way they do. They lash out at others because they are the people they feel safest lashing out at. None of this is personal towards you and your child.
Can any of this beahaviour be a sign of narcissistic personality disorder. It's based on stunted growth at age of 2 where they had a problem with lack of affection in early formative years. They basically have a hard time developing their own identity and create a false sense of self, aka a mask. They project their inner selves onto partners and treat others as objects or sources of supply to feed their ego. They shower their partners with affection in earlier stages and thrive on the honeymoon phase. When the relationship gets further down the line and a deeper bond is needed they tire of their partner as they start seeing their flaws and the image they created of their partner from early on doesn't match the person in front of them. This is when they begin demoralizing, devaluing their partner until they can find a new source of affection or supply. They tend to discard someone no matter how long they've been together and start building up the new partner. It's a cycle for them. Dr. Ramani and Dr Sam vaknin have great videos explaining the psychology and the behaviors of someone with NPD. It feels to me a lot of us are on the same boat and we are dealing with people who are innately broken and lack empathy for others, their world revolves around their needs and they see themselves as flawless.
MLCers can display many different types of disorders: narcissistic personality, borderline personality disorder, etc. However, if the "symptoms" are only showing up during the crisis, that does not mean that they are permanent. MLC is all about emotions, traumas and the biggest player in all of this is depression. They are out there seeking something/anything that will make them feel better. They do not realize that happiness comes from within and not from outside things. They will continue to try different things just to have a few moments of peace. MLC could come from emotional, mental and physical abuse. Abandonment is another factor in MLC. If their home life was not stable or they were not recognized for their accomplishments, even if they were small accomplishments, this can set them up for a crisis. Siblings getting more attention and being treated better can also fester for many years. All of this stuff is stuffed down from childhood until one day something triggers the questions of is this what I want to do with the rest of my life question. They begin to question their lives and think that there is something better out there, i.e., the grass is greener on the other side.
We all go through transitions, i.e., ages, 13 early 20's, 30's, 40's, etc. If they are not able to navigate those transitions, then they will have to revisit them and their childhood at a later date. The some of the triggers that can set a full blown crisis into motion are: illness of a parent or a serious illness/injury of the MLCer, illness of a friend, death of a close relative or friend, change in jobs, promotions, demotions, loss of jobs, having children, children growing up, divorce. Once the crisis is set in motion, it is best to allow it to run the complete course. If the MLCer is interrupted and snapped back to reality, they will experience the crisis again at a later time and it will be far worse than what is happening presently.
I studied MLC for many years, I spoke to many who had gone before me who had to deal with MLC, and I read every article and book I could find to better understand what they go through and how to deal with the behavior. There is absolutely nothing we can do to speed up the process, they move at a snail's pace. It took years for the crisis to become full blown and it will take time for them to return to reality.
People are looking for answers and how to fix the issues. We are all fixers, however, we can't fix this for them. We didn't break them, therefore we can't fix them. They are the only ones that can do that. This is the time to work on yourself. If there are things that you know you need to improve on, now is the time to work on them. A word of caution, if you are going to make some changes, the changes need to become permanent and not just to get your spouses back. They will test you to see if those changes are permanent or just a ploy to get their attention.
Keep the focus on you and your family. Listen closely to what your MLCer says. They are good at talking and if you listen closely...you may hear some things that will tell you what they are feeling. Please try not to take what they say personally, sometimes it is projection of what they are feeling, but most often it is what they have done or are planning to do.
If you have not visited the MLC Forum, I would suggest you do. There is a lot of valuable information there about MLC. Here is a link about MLC and Depression that might be helpful to you.
Last edited by job; 03/03/2403:05 PM. Reason: Added link
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
The clothing, their mannerisms, heck their ability to do math, devolves or time travels back to that age of their emotional trauma. My XW is basically her 18 year old self. Just far more brash and rebellious. So they a really troublesome teenager with a large bank account and the legal age to do whatever they feel like.
The other two personalities of XW that appear are her as 13 and 7. Over the years I’ve pieced together those ages correlate to two traumatic events involving a male relative. A man whom she showed an odd trepidation towards during our last family vacation to see her grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins. (Her parents tossed her out of their lives when she was 18. They then cut all ties with her and I, and our future kids, when we got married. We never saw them again after that.) Who knew her trepidations was something stirring within her. The poor gal has some horrible demons.
I’ve found that if I pressured XW she’d fall back, shrink, withdrawal into former selves. Judgemental or contentious conversation from me and XW becomes herself of 13. Further pressing and she falls further to a young girl of seven. It’s wild and completely spooky! On one occasion I was arguing with her about some finances and she withdrew all the way to her seven year old self. The poor girl couldn’t even multiple anymore. On the flip side, she can be very happy. Days after BD, after tossing everyone away and moving in with OM, she showed up at the house to proudly show me a $100 cheque she got for agreeing to do snow shovelling for a person over the winter. She was so ecstatic! She had the world by the tail.
There were a few more incidents of her and I clashing where she’d withdrawal, shrinking to a young wee girl. Very sad thing to witness. I ceased such interactions and just let her be. Gave her to God. My goodness, it was so clear: I didn’t break her, and I certainly cannot fix her.
So, I just responded to her demands of separating and divorce. Let her lead at her pace. Never blocked her path, nor paved it either. Heck, her lawyer did more preventative measures forcing her to see two financial planners and a psychiatrist. Her lawyer even had her sign a waiver that she was going against his advice. She also had some surgery during this time along with a 3 week recovery period. Even with all that, the separation agreement was signed and done by 60 days after BD.
XW also filed for divorced a month before the one year cooldown period had elapsed. She even paid for it. Looking back it is kind of funny, I had gone to my lawyer to alter my will and he met me thinking I was there because of the divorce. I had no idea what he was talking about. Turns out I was going to be served divorce papers in the next day or two at work. My gosh, that would have been something. I was still very much hurt back then, it was only 11 months after that 3 hour BD at Thanksgiving.
Anyhow, I read over her divorce demands which contained nothing. No changes from the separation agreement. Just a divorce. She even wrote yet another letter, so two attached forms stating that I had sole custody of the kids. Complete responsibility for them. She wanted nothing to do with them. Really heartbreaking.
I asked some questions. Like could I stop this. Turns out, no. It only takes one to divorce. And it cannot be stopped. Contesting only applies to the terms of the divorce. Since XW had none, paid for it, waived custody, and so on, I could only sign. And even that didn’t matter. If I didn’t sign, the court would still adopt it. So I signed and sent the form into the bureaucratic legal machinery. Divorce is frighteningly efficient, especially compared to other legal things.
Interestingly, I visited S25 yesterday, we were talking about his master physics research and learnings. Quantum and computational physics; son has such passion. And is brilliant. Anyhow, he brought up that Mom had been doing her frantic pestering texts to speak with him. So he did talk to her. She, like always, had nothing to say. However, during her vague conversation she accused son of having no goals. She said, she has goals, like when she mows a lawn (she cleans a few houses and mows some lawns as employment). All son’s “thinking stuff” (yes that’s what she called it) is beyond her, and not really a goal.
Son and I laughed. My goodness! He is very goal oriented and driven. He is on track upon his 12 year university plan towards a PHD. What a goal! What drive!
He and a buddy solved some complicated problem a while back. This late night breakthrough of their’s, hours and hours something like 16 hours, was life altering. Son spoke with such passion of their work and struggle. He showed me - over forty, yes 40 pages of equations and work until they took a derivative of a derivative, got an identify of something or other, along with a bunch of other head nodding stuff as he is way on another level, and they actually found not only the solution, but how to actually solve such problems. A true eureka moment. As son said, that, along with other such moments, will remain with him forever.
Pffft! No goals.
Speaking of university, my eldest son has decided to apply to masters for architecture.
Hmmm, I seemed to have wondered off onto an update of my life. Sorry about that jess.
Point being, MLCers, they dress, think, feel, and behave like angry, brash, rebellious teenagers. They see the world as such. Like they are that old. Like they are/were back then. They weren’t married, didn’t have kids, etc. It’s how and why they have little to no empathy towards us and their family. They do know, somewhat, of when they are, yet they don’t feel it. They are consumed and feel their long ago lives and pain. Really wild stuff. Really had to fathom until you see it, witness it first hand.
Hope you have a wonderful Sunday.
D
Now, I should probably copy some of this over to my thread. Sheesh, what am I doing rambling on over here. It’s not like I don’t have a thread of my own. Just started typing and continued. Wow, kind of good I realized I guess. My my my, imagine if I just kept typing away. I’d likely put some humorous post post post speaking to the post I just posted.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you so much for all of this, and I am so glad to hear your update. those are great plans and accomplishments for your son. My son worked with me at my company for a while and my husband went off on him about how he wasn't doing anything with his life working at an event coordinating company. funny thing is is that we both make a significant amount more than my husband. they are nutty and only see their view.
I do think the pulling away is helping me in my situation a lot. My Husband has accused me of trying to "turn the kids against him." All because the kids wanted to curl up in bed with me and watch tv in my room. I guess he finely learned if he wants us with him he can ask or act like he wants us. the kids and I got home from a game the other day and my son asked to go and watch tv in my bed. My husband waited for about 30 minutes and said "How about we have a movie night in the living room with all of us? And we can let Mama pick the movie because she doesn't get to pick the show a lot." We had a good night and I made sure I said how much I liked us all being together. It is odd to me that just with majorly pulling back and not trying to talk at all has helped.I do know he is still in contact with the ap, and there have been some days that I know there has been some drama between them and she is looking at my social media quite often. I dont think she knows i can see this because she has a burner account but she is doing it from her phone so it shows me it is her phone number. lol. I am hoping for her to go crazy on him enough to teach him a good lesson to never do this again.
Last edited by DnJ; 03/08/2404:55 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
My son worked with me at my company for a while and my husband went off on him about how he wasn't doing anything with his life working at an event coordinating company. funny thing is that we both make a significant amount more than my husband. they are nutty and only see their view.
Yes, their view is pretty narrow. And they do tend to tune out, ignore, discard, anything that goes counter to their view/script/narrative.
Three of my kids own houses with mortgages, and one is renting until his phd program location is figured out. They all have incomes greater than Mom, most far greater. Married/engaged, strong relationships and friends. Yet, XW/Mom feels she can/should criticize and dispense life advice.
You know, my XW actually told me, while acknowledging my retirement, that my career path was wrong. I should’ve had multiple different jobs/careers, like a dozen, over the years. Staying with one company for 33 years is rare and basically dumb. Haha. lol. I simply agreed to disagree with her.
Originally Posted by jessieht
I do think the pulling away is helping me in my situation a lot.
Good. Keep doing more of what works. And of course, less of what doesn’t.
Originally Posted by jessieht
I do know he is still in contact with the ap, and there have been some days that I know there has been some drama between them and she is looking at my social media quite often. I dont think she knows i can see this because she has a burner account but she is doing it from her phone so it shows me it is her phone number. lol. I am hoping for her to go crazy on him enough to teach him a good lesson to never do this again.
LOL. Can see her phone number. So much for her stealth surfing.
Affairs usually have quite a bit of drama. They’ll overlook it for a while, then kaboom! Crazy comes out. Stay well clear of the affair, it’s drama, etc. Any involvement only paints a target on you. Let them feel all their misguided choices. Perhaps some life lessons will be acquired.
People will work hard against changing. It usually requires hitting rock bottom, having the pain of continuing out weigh the pain of changing.
I think you handled H’s tantrum and then the movie night really well. Boundaries. H needs to ask politely. Nicely done with thanking H afterwards; reinforcing the good behaviour.
Have a great weekend.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So Can yall tell me how bad I messed up or not? Sorry for the TMI.
H has been home for almost 7 months. he has been better but definitely still mlc withdrawal. two weeks ago I got the "I don think you ugly but I am not attracted to you right now". well a little over a month ago I did something for myself. He was angry about it but I went and got a tummy tuck and breast implants. nothing crazy just fixing myself up after three kids. We have always had separate finances so this wasn't impacting him at all. But he was still angry and said it was stupid. well two days after the "I am not attracted to you" comment he started hitting on me big time. constantly talking and asking about my surgery and how happy I was and looked good. this kept on getting more and more the last two weeks. Then on Sunday he Kept on making sexual jokes and making excuses to sit by me or have any contact. before this he would contort all over the place to avoided having any touch or anything close contact. Like I had lepercy it was so bad Well then he ask for a back rub! i did and kept it at that but he was definitely pushing but without actually making a move.We spent like two hors on his and then he offered me one. and the whole time he had his hand holding on to my leg softly. My head was spinning. Not how I thought my day would go at all. then when I said a little something about it he projected it all on my like this was all my idea for sex and that isnt what he was trying to do. (trust me there was not question) So at that time I luckily got a call to have to go pick up my daughter so it got me away to think about it for a bit. I dont want to be used but also dont want to shut off any toward movement from him. he has been helping around the house and being super kind over that last little bit of time. So later that night it all started again and I didnt stop it. He made sure and asked if I was sure I was ok with it which I appreciated. It was awkward because my mind was flashing with so many thoughts of good and bad. He sat on the edge of the bed clearly wanting to say something but stopped himself a few times. I didnt ask any questions. then he went to do other house stuff and went to bed in his bed and a little later I could here him sniffling like he was crying. So I dont know if he just felt guilty or what. But now the last two days he is back to really withdrawn again. Is this normal. I mean I know he is and will be in mlc for a while and am not taking it to personal (actually trying to twist it in my head that I was more using him for pleasure than letting myself feel used). I could tell the whole day that even thou His plan was clear to me he was scared to make the actual moves. I am just trying to keep on like I have been but didnt know if it was normal that they withdraw after coming a lot closer for a bit. Should I have said no? I am not sure of anything any more.
