So the question I have is this: is it still a deal breaker and you're just afraid of what that means? Or are you really willing to do the hard work necessary, and require it of her too, in order to heal from it? And please do not gloss over the second part of that. Requiring hard work from her is absolutely necessary. Marriages do not heal from infidelity without the cheater agreeing to work at it too. If you're willing to accept it without her owning it and working then that means you are giving it up as a deal breaker out of fear.
Thank you Steve - this is a spot-on summary of where I am right now, and it's the question I've asked myself since DDay in September. The conclusion I've come to is this: I am willing to remain in my MR if I see an earnest effort from my W to do the work. I've come a long way in understanding the ways in which I came up short in the MR (a process I began long before the A was confirmed), and I expect my W to do the same (and more) if she wants things to continue. I have very little hope that this will happen, but I am willing to be patient for now and observe her behavior/actions.
Sorry to hear this is happening. What a terrible situation.
So basically, your W is choosing to drink, go out, sleep with other men, treat you like garbage, and neglect her kids. Not only that, but she tells you she's going to continue doing those things.
Sorry for this 2x4, but you need to find your balls. Not only for you, but for your children. Do you really want your kids seeing this kind of behavior?
I'm so sick of seeing this crap from women, especially mothers. Her going out, getting drunk, and doing God knows what (or who) while you sit home taking care of the kids is probably the most selfish pathetic thing a person can do.
This certainly isn't what you want to hear, and it's just my opinion. But if I were you I would document everything that is happening and has happened. Keep a log or journal of how much time you spend with the kids, how often she goes out 'partying', all of the drunken fights she starts, if/how it effects the kids, etc.
Buy a digital recorder and make sure it's running during any interactions with her. Especially during her drunken tirades. All she needs to do is call 911 and say she feels threatened, and you're out of the house w/ a TRO against you, will have no contact with your kids, etc.
You said she's a SAHM. How's she getting the money to go out raging? Cut that money source off. All that money that she spends going out, put in an account for yourself. Hell, hide it under a mattress or in the backyard.
Talk to a lawyer. Talk to several lawyers. Find one that is willing to fight for full custody.
Make no mention of Divorce to your wife, ever again. She's already called your bluff on that. Get your ducks in a row and file. Go for full custody. In my opinion, that's the only thing that may snap her out of this.
I've had a lawyer since around 6 months ago - before I knew about the A I had already decided I would not stick around while W partied like a college student. Meeting with the attorney was about understanding what my life would look like post D, and what I needed to prepare for if that becomes reality.
I won't rant on and on about how neglectful she's been of her parenting responsibilities because frankly, I have moved beyond the anger stage. Suffice to say it has been 2 years of deep frustration and I'm now focused on the last ditch effort phase.
I've read here that filing for D in order to save the MR is a risky move and I wouldn't file until I am well and truly ready to end it. I'd say I'm 80% there.
If I were you I would document everything that is happening and has happened. Keep a log or journal of how much time you spend with the kids, how often she goes out 'partying', all of the drunken fights she starts, if/how it effects the kids, etc.
Buy a digital recorder and make sure it's running during any interactions with her. Especially during her drunken tirades. All she needs to do is call 911 and say she feels threatened, and you're out of the house w/ a TRO against you, will have no contact with your kids, etc.
You said she's a SAHM. How's she getting the money to go out raging? Cut that money source off. All that money that she spends going out, put in an account for yourself. Hell, hide it under a mattress or in the backyard.
Talk to a lawyer. Talk to several lawyers. Find one that is willing to fight for full custody.
Make no mention of Divorce to your wife, ever again. She's already called your bluff on that. Get your ducks in a row and file. Go for full custody. In my opinion, that's the only thing that may snap her out of this.
I agree with all of this, but you do it to protect you,your kids, and your relationship with your kids, not to snap her out of it. Her snapping out of it is not the main reason you do the other very wise things Tarapin recommends.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I've been leaning on sandi2's various discussions for LBHs with WW since finding the forums, and her insights in many cases describe my situation perfectly. However, my wife in not in an active A as far as I know and is not the one advocating for D, so some of the guidance doesn't suit my sitch exactly (or does it? correct me if needed).
I do think that removing my time and attention, focusing on GAL, "opening the cage door", and doing what is best for me and my kids makes obvious sense. But when it comes to dealing with disrespect I have a question. My wife tends to go out and stay out late, and I anticipate she will do so this weekend at her holiday party. In the past I had told her that staying out until 2am was inappropriate and not okay with me, and that is still the case and would be for me in any future relationship. The advice here for H with WW seems to be to "take your balls back" and no longer tolerate acts of disrespect, but also to detach and let the WW go and live their life.
So if I stay home with my kids while my W is out until the wee hours, aren't I tolerating a form of disrespect and giving my W the logistical comfort of a MR?
Yes. But you aren't ready to divorce yet so thats why you tolerate it.
So don't worry about it bc you aren't ready to make a change.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I'm so sick of seeing this crap from women, especially mothers. Her going out, getting drunk, and doing God knows what (or who) while you sit home taking care of the kids is probably the most selfish pathetic thing a person can do.
Do you think this is just a woman thing?
Of course not. But statistically, women are checking out of marriages in record numbers nowadays
I hear what you are saying Terrapin and I can tell by your posts you are a red pill guy who quotes that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. What it doesn't tell you is why they are filing for divorce. Many file because they don't want to be with someone they are no longer attracted to because men typically become complacent in marriages. I spoke to a MC once who had been doing it for 30 years and he said he never once saw a woman leave a healthy, strong secure man. So my view wasn't to mope and complain that all women are no good and will eventually leave, my view was to become the healthy, strong secure man that a woman would never want to leave.
The choice is yours. Learn from your mistakes or mope around on how you've been done dirty by your XW and women are evil.
I can tell you that when you find a good woman who sees you and treats you like a King, there is no better feeling in the world.
Yeah, I may not be the best person to give advice on the subject. I've just read and watched thousands of articles, message boards, podcasts, videos, etc, and the story is nearly always the same. We've seen it here for years, right down to the same exact talking points.
And while I'm still pro marriage, pro saving marriages, etc, I have absolutely zero empathy or compassion for someone that neglects and/or walks out on their children. If there's abuse, infidelity, etc, I can see that. But all of this crap like 'I need to find myself', 'I need to do me', 'I need to have fun', etc, is just childish selfish [censored].
I do agree about loss of attraction, complacency, etc.
Last edited by DnJ; 12/01/2302:35 AM. Reason: Removed swear word.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
I've just read and watched thousands of articles, message boards, podcasts, videos, etc, and the story is nearly always the same. We've seen it here for years, right down to the same exact talking points.
Some days it's helpful to know that my situation is far from unique. I've been consuming similar content for ~2 years now and it has helped me understand the dynamic. It's also forced me to accept that I can only control me and my W may only "come around" if SHE fully realizes the damage she has done to herself and the family and has a desire to change. I have zero expectations.
Today is a more difficult day after a nice string of optimistic ones. Living together while having no real relationship has been a struggle and I am always more centered when we're physically apart. I find that some of my optimism lately has been around discovering the DB process and becoming hopeful that this is the "cure" to our problems, which I know rationally is not true. The DB process can be used to address MY problems, not the marital ones.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Yes. But you aren't ready to divorce yet so thats why you tolerate it.
So don't worry about it bc you aren't ready to make a change.
I will challenge this. I am ready to divorce, though not excited about it. Discovering the A and the years of deception pushed me to the point where I am willing to end the MR. I've asked her to move out but she refuses, and my attorney has advised me to stay in the home as well. Otherwise I'd be gone by now. So in the meantime I'm here, she's here, and I'm focused on the 180 and GAL. The main change in the last two weeks is that instead of not speaking to one another, I am cheerful, fun, and optimistic.
Emotionally detaching and seeing her for what she is has been very helpful as well. As a friend put it to me recently: "Let's say you're single a year from now. Would you consider dating a woman like your W?" The answer is no: if I met an attractive, single mother of 3 who had been out until 2am the night before I wouldn't give her the time of day.
As others have said, it is essential in your dynamic for you to enforce your boundaries and non-negotiables to protect your Self and your kids (because they are learning through this).
Your W is still in party mode, which you have said you are not ok with.
Your W is still acting in affair-seeking mode, despite you telling her that is a deal breaker for you.
Your W is still living with you and not in the type of marital relationship that you deserve and expect (which you have said you are not ok with).
Your W has been an awful parent to your kids by your account for 2+ years, and you have said you are not ok with someone treating your kids and family this way.
And yet, you are still spinning your wheels talking to your D lawyer, held back by fear and uncertainty.
Do not spin your wheels when your WAW (or anyone) is trampling all over your core boundaries. It teaches you, your kids, and her that you have no boundaries. That you are weak. It is not attractive and, more importantly, it hurts your Self and your kids every day that you do so.
Would you advise your daughter to stay in a marriage for 3 years if her future husband was treating her this way?
Or your son to be patient and get a life while his wife was out drinking til 2 am trying to find other men to eff and coming home middle of the night drunk?
Cause that's what you are teaching them every day.
In addition to the Boundaries books that others have suggested, see Dobson's Love Must be Tough and Hold On to Your N.U.T.s: The Relationship Manual for Men.
My wife, when she became a WAS, started to save our relationship (when I had been acting badly pursuing EAs and neglecting her and her family) by strongly enforcing her boundaries. She stood up for herself and said I will no longer accept this crap behavior and walked away, with all that entailed.
And after working and working on myself for a year, but still being stuck in marital limbo, our dynamic changed again when *I* finally enforced my boundary of not being ok being in limbo with a WAS of 1 year who did not want to work on our relationship. I started to move on, went no contact, and began divorce proceedings. And after a few months, my WAW came back, no longer an alien, saying she wanted to try again.
It is essential that you enforce your boundaries to respect and value yourself and for your emotional health. When you live an authentic live with intact boundaries, you and your loved ones WILL be ok. I promise you will prevail, no matter the marital outcome.
Remember, your WAW can choose to change how she acts on any day. I did when my WAS enforced her boundaries. And my WAW changed her actions when I enforced mine. There is no reason for your WAW to change when she is having her cake and eating it too. And why would she want to change for a spouse who does not respect himself enough to withdraw themselves from such mistreatment.
And if she chooses not to change, you will have led yourself out of a painful limbo of trampled fences. And modeled self-respect and resilience for those wonderful kids of yours.
Divorces don't become final overnight. And reconciliations even happen after people divorce. So, it can be helpful not to see filing for divorce as the end all, be all. It's simply being true to your boundary of not being ok being married/in a relationship with someone who treats you and your family this way. You have already asked her to move out and she did not (violating you yet again).
Keep up your 180 and GAL by all means. But it is essential that you begin enforcing your boundaries.
You know W, this sitch isn't working for me anymore. I'm over being married to someone who is not married to me. And I've seen over the past few (months) how much better things can be for me and the kids without all this. So, I am moving forward accordingly. Now, we can do this as a mediation or contested divorce, etc...
I agree 100% with your attorney that you should stay in the home and YOU should be in the marital bed. She can choose what she chooses.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
It is essential that you enforce your boundaries to respect and value yourself and for your emotional health. When you live an authentic live with intact boundaries, you and your loved ones WILL be ok. I promise you will prevail, no matter the marital outcome.
And if she chooses not to change, you will have led yourself out of a painful limbo of trampled fences. And modeled self-respect and resilience for those wonderful kids of yours.
I logged in just now because I'm having a rough day, and this was very helpful to read. Thank you bustorama.
You have hit the nail on the head with the phrase "painful limbo". It's been ten weeks since DDay and while I make best efforts to remain optimistic, there are days like today when I feel very despondent. I realize that hoping for her to "snap out of it" while I work on my 180s and GAL without boundary enforcement is not what DB is all about. It's my fault that I've spent 1-2 years years communicating boundaries only for her to walk all over them. At this point the path to my own sanity is to move to end the marriage, because the way things have worked for the last 3 years doesn't work for me.
