2nd Time Around

[SteveLW]

MrP, as I said most of us fell into those traps. My posts were not intended to beat you up, but to get you to see what is going on. As men we are fixers. So it's in our nature to "root cause" a problem. We can't fix something without knowing why it's broken.

The problem is that we have no power to fix a WAW/WW. Whether or not we want to face that fact, we only get control over one person in this life, and she ain't it. So that is why focusing on yourself is so important. Focus on what you can control and that's you.

I like that you said you are doing this to be the best you can be for a future relationship. That's awesome because that's why you should be doing this. Your W is going to either stay or go. What you need to focus on is what both of those look like! What are your expectations if she ends up wanting to stay? You just said that you've been through this before in 2018/2019. As a two time DBer myself, what I've learned is that if you just try to go back to business as usual after your W comes back then you are setting yourself up for the next BD. So what does piercing and reconciliation mean to you? Because you certainly don't want to rinse and repeat the same mistakes from last time.

(Note, the above questions are not intended for you to answer, but you get you to think about it.)

[MrP]

Good morning Boat. I hope you had a good evening. I hear you. I do.

At face value, option 2 is more appealing. There are no guarantees in either scenario. I thought I'd "screened" W quite thoroughly over the 4-5 years we dated and knew each other through work. What I ultimately found is that W pretty effectively masked her 1) social anxiety and 2) unresolved traumas involving a childhood issue as well as a relationship immediately before ours. I should add that this isn't me mind reading or making assumptions. Years ago, these things surfaced during some MC we did, and as I've shared what is happening with my IC. Hindsight is 20/20 so I can look back and say that what seemed like minor red flags at the time now were the tips of larger icebergs, floating below the surface. Even close friends and family acknowledge not having foreseen issues.

I share these details to illustrate why, to me, option 2 isn't a clear winner. I've not had issues attracting/meeting women. As our MC told W and me in 2019 "Most women that come into my office would love to have a partner like (INSERT MY NAME)". I'm still a work in progress but generally have a good handle on what contemporary research and relationship experts (MWD, Gottman, Johnson, Tatkin, etc.) advise related to building and maintaining good relationships.

Even with all the tools one acquires to better evaluate potential partners, the risk of ending up trading one set of baggage for another is greater than 50% IMO. More people seem to have ongoing mental health issues or residual trauma these days. And, as MWD suggests, I know what I'm up against with W, we're tethered to one another for life thanks to D13, and I agree with MWD that (absent domestic violence, drugs, etc.) marriage is worth fighting for, even if I can only work on me (which pays off either way). I can give this some additional time and, to SteveLW's point, see value in having a date by which this needs to be resolved if I'm not satisfied with where I'm at.

It seems like there are a few mini-communities under the DB umbrella: MWD purists, DBers with more of a religious slant, and DBers who believe in what I'm going to call DBing "alpha male style". I'm sure I missed another sub-culture or two. Each of these seems to have value as a potential approach/solution. We have to pick what we think works best for us. I've found a mix of pure DBing with a dash of alpha male work for me. Again, please keep on pushing me, asking provocative questions to challenge myself, and offering your perspectives. It is one of the parts of this community I get the most out of and for which I am most grateful to each of you.

[MrP]

Morning Steve. Thanks for the clarification and the chance to say I didn't take it at all as beating me up. When it comes to this community, I always assume intentions are good and helpful. You're spot on again: I'm a fixer. I want to pinpoint the root cause so that if I can do something better in the future, I will. As DnJ likes to say, I didn't break W so I can't fix her. This work is first and foremost for me and to show D13 that I'm working to be the best person possible.

And, it is like you're a mind reader. I think I've said before that I'm working on two paths at the same time. In one, the D happens. In the other, we R and piece. The old relationship and habits that got us here are dead. I can't do the things I contributed to get us here. If W is unable to do the same, I deserve better and will be content to move on. Heck I think I'd want a post-nup if W opts to R LOL so that we aren't back here again in 3 years. Phew. Again, many thanks for the food for thought. Have a great day! If only we could all meet for at least a virtual, anonymous happy hour in the metaverse one day!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MrP

I am doing well. Thank you for asking. It’s been a busy few weeks.

My second oldest son and DIL finally got possession of their new home and are presently moving in. My eldest son and future DIL just got engaged!! Decorating my house for Christmas. Hosting a Christmas concert and sing-a-long at my house next weekend for around 25 family and friends. Visiting friends during the holiday season.

I do recall those workplace signs: x days without an incident. Keep doing your best, and growing and learning, with the interactions.

I think you did pretty well during that last conversation. You did continued beyond the Christmas Eve discussion and got into her life and her choices and her control. Be cautious, that’s dangerous unstable territory.

I do get it, the process of letting go. We all require a certain amount of understanding before we can/will let go. A certain level of rationalizing is needed. Rationalization is a key component in the process of shifting things from the emotional realm to the intellectual realm. Acknowledging your feelings, and also “unfeelingly” seeing the facts of a situation.

My observation is that W's confidence in her choice is wavering. Maybe it is the holidays. Maybe it is our anniversary passing. Maybe there will be a full moon tonight. My intent was just to note my observation, continue down my path…

Yep, another data point. Perfectly fine to consider her reasoning and present status and/or progress. After all, validate and empathize are some of the oft promoted lessons here.

Empathy is the ability to take on another’s viewpoint. Interestingly, empathy requires an high degree of self control and self identity; to truly know and to have clear delimitation between your and the other person’s feelings.

In my opinion, you are considering, observing, and utilizing W’s info/feedback to continue moving forward rather than remain held in place. Forward towards understanding, compassion, forgiveness, and acceptance. The big goals, regardless of martial outcome. Your path.

Have a good time at the party tomorrow.

D

[Boat14]

At face value, option 2 is more appealing. There are no guarantees in either scenario.

I was just trying to show you that successful DBing doesn't necessarily mean you get your spouse back. In fact, 95% of the time it doesn't. Most of the time it gets you option 2.

What I ultimately found is that W pretty effectively masked her 1) social anxiety and 2) unresolved traumas involving a childhood issue as well as a relationship immediately before ours. I should add that this isn't me mind reading or making assumptions. Years ago, these things surfaced during some MC we did, and as I've shared what is happening with my IC. Hindsight is 20/20 so I can look back and say that what seemed like minor red flags at the time now were the tips of larger icebergs, floating below the surface. Even close friends and family acknowledge not having foreseen issues.

This is what MWD means by cheeseless tunnel.

I share these details to illustrate why, to me, option 2 isn't a clear winner. I've not had issues attracting/meeting women. As our MC told W and me in 2019 "Most women that come into my office would love to have a partner like (INSERT MY NAME)".

What do you think most women in her office see in you that your W doesn't?

More people seem to have ongoing mental health issues or residual trauma these days.

This sounds a liylle fatalistic to me.

And, as MWD suggests, I know what I'm up against with W, we're tethered to one another for life thanks to D13, and I agree with MWD that (absent domestic violence, drugs, etc.) marriage is worth fighting for, even if I can only work on me (which pays off either way).

What does fighting for your marriage look like to you?

I can give this some additional time and, to SteveLW's point, see value in having a date by which this needs to be resolved if I'm not satisfied with where I'm at.

Absolutely having goals are key.

I've found a mix of pure DBing with a dash of alpha male work for me.

What dash of alpha you have implemented has worked for you?

[MrP]

Hi Boat. I've got to practice with the quoting function; you gents are masterful users of it. That'll be a goal as I approach creating a new thread. Yes, my situation is likely to NOT end up in MWD's "Divorce Busted" sub-forum.

Regarding cheeseless tunnels, that particular tunnel is one I've not gone down since 2018/19. I only share it as context for why experience leaves me cautious about what Chris Rock used to call the "representatives" we meet when dating vs. the person we see later in relationships.

From what our MC said, it is less about what other women see and rather the filters that W applies to how W interprets what others (beyond me) say and do. The trauma she experienced, combined with social anxiety, leads W to get very anxious about how people perceive her and how she perceives our motivations. It leads to trouble with emotional regulation too. Things that aren't a big deal for most people are a huge deal for W. W struggles to either 1) express clearly what she wants or 2) eventually explode after ruminating. Our MC directly told W that W needs to more clearly communicate about what she wants and what her expectations are. I could go on but it would read like a textbook on trauma and anxiety (plus menopause and MLC - fun times).

My understanding is that W still finds me attractive and is struggling to manage "life" overall right now. Life was simpler when she lived alone. And, as I may have mentioned at one point, when I asked W how much of this was about only having to parent in person 50% of the time, she just looked down at her feet. Maybe it is mind-reading or making assumptions but it confirmed for me an observation that W has been overwhelmed with parenting, especially as D13 (who is quite smart) challenges "because I said so" types of directives from W.

Yes, I went back and forth about how to frame my comment about the prevalence of mental health and trauma in the population these days. I work for a world-renowned medical center. Something like 1-4 people have mental health issues and it is likely higher because of the stigma associated with disclosure. Among my female colleagues and co-workers, there sadly has been a high level of sexual harassment and assault across their history that leaves some mental health challenges or trauma mark. So, when I think about dating down the road, I wonder what I may encounter.

Fighting for my marriage right now is all about me and how to maintain new, good habits and behaviors I've established. It is also about tuning up areas where I misstep like saying too much in the conversation the other day. It is also about being a great dad. Lastly, it is also about showing W that we aren't going to continue to engage in things that didn't work, even if we get a D. And that leads to ways I'm trying to channel my alpha.

For example, I've mentioned W and my mom don't see eye-to-eye. When W disparages or speaks discourteously to me about my mother, I enforce a boundary. I've told W that I'm happy to have productive conversations about my W. I will not participate in disrespectful ones. Last time W started to go off, I stated that it seemed like a bad time to talk and that I'd welcome a conversation when we can do it more civilly. I'm not going to re-litigate old, resolved issues either. Solutions, future-focused only. I left the room. W came back later, apologized, we talked through what happened, W apologized and the behavior hasn't been repeated.

[MrP]

DnJ - That sounds like a wonderful holiday lineup. Truly an inspiration of where successful DBers can end up. Congrats on your expanding family, especially if they're onboard (and you are too) with some grandkids down the road. This is one of my favorite times of year because of how these holidays can get us concentrated, much-needed doses of close family and friends. I grew up Catholic and, while I've drifted from active practice, I like to return to my home parish around this time too. It is full of great memories of decorating the church, singing, and community. I hope your party goes smoothly too.

[MrP]

Two great days in a row. Started purging some items to make an eventual move easier. Hitting the range with a friend tomorrow to turn over some older ammo. Finally able to work out again after being down with some non-COVID issues for the last two weeks. D13 and I went out for dinner yesterday and she is admirably handling the situation. She asks fair questions, still laughs with regularity, and is just a smart kid all around. It inspires me to be the best dad I can. I hope everyone is having a good weekend. Off to clean out the garage while this weather holds up!

[Ready2Change]

Today W asked if I was going to participate in Christmas Eve at our house with her family which has been a tradition. I said I need more time to think about it. W seemed flustered and said her family would always be welcoming. She asked where else I would go. I said I could go to one of my parents and come back that evening or the next morning. W said that seems inconvenient to which I said, I'd not find it inconvenient. I noted that W didn't plan to come to Thanksgiving at my father's (also a very welcoming place) and, though she ended up sick, she'd told D13 she was not coming. Not that we're playing tit for tat but it seemed like it might make sense for me to similarly detach from these traditions. W also indicated she was sad because she didn't expect her life to be this way at this point. I acknowledged it was tough and, as her choice, within her control (to make life what she'd like it to be). Today is also our anniversary and I've just gone about my business as usual. I'm fired so there is nothing to celebrate, right? Thanks for reading. It is helpful to journal a bit.

I see others have responded to this, but I did not read the responses. I will give my 2 cents:

Today W asked if I was going to participate in Christmas Eve at our house with her family which has been a tradition. I said I need more time to think about it.

I believe this is an acceptable response. "I am not sure." would be better. Or "I have other plans".

W seemed flustered and said her family would always be welcoming. She asked where else I would go. I said I could go to one of my parents and come back that evening or the next morning.

I would not have answered her question, rather relate to her emotional state " You seem flustered".

W said that seems inconvenient to which I said, I'd not find it inconvenient. I noted that W didn't plan to come to Thanksgiving at my father's (also a very welcoming place) and, though she ended up sick, she'd told D13 she was not coming

Do not engage in these type of discussions. Why on earth would you want to argue with her? Stay out of her "Frame" and stay in yours. If you must, them "Mmm" might be a response.

W also indicated she was sad because she didn't expect her life to be this way at this point. I acknowledged it was tough

Perfect.

and, as her choice, within her control (to make life what she'd like it to be).

And then you blow it. Drop these type of statements. She does not need (or want) your 2cents. I still F this up on occasion with my lady, but I catch myself. Believe me, it is worth learning this.

Thanks for reading. It is helpful to journal a bit.

Thanks for sharing. I know this is tough. Just know it does get better.

[MrP]

Hey R2C. Yeah, I've been reflecting on all this feedback and, phew, see where I need to improve. It illustrates how challenging it can be to break old habits and form new, better ones. It might be silly but I put a slight dot on my hand with a Sharpie as a reminder to STFU and be more frugal with my words when I interact with W. I'm challenging myself to use as few words as possible to respond and also not initiate conversation to the fullest extent possible. I'm grateful for the coaching and for sharing you still have a slip here and there too! I hope your weekend is going well.