24 (thread 2)

[Rockon]

I responded by email asking what she wanted to talk about as you had suggested, R2C.

W:

“I would like to talk about things since communicating this way (email] leaves a lot of misunderstanding.

If we don’t have an agreement, then we will have different expectations when it comes time to sell the house. This needs to be decided in writing.

We need to choose a separation date, and if you just start paying the mortgage, that is only one element. I need more information.”

I have started to pay the whole mortgage and utilities for the matrimonial home where I live with S as advised by my L now that I have progressed with my return to work. Right now, my L is drafting up a separation agreement so that we are ready. I don’t want it to come directly from L right now - again I don’t want to do the heavy lifting for something I don’t want but I need to be prepared. And I may want it soon enough.

I want to separate finances more but not split up our assets because I don’t want to incur financial loss and negatively impact my family (without W)’s standard of living unnecessarily. I have worked out a good financial strategy for me and family. And it will be sound even if we do split everything up - oh and I do not want to seek the house certainly not now, I am working out a plan to hopefully buy her out.

[Rockon]

R2C, you said:

“ Put the cookie on the table (all your assets/debt).
One person gets to split the cookie.
The other person gets to pick which half they want.
Do not quibble about the crumbs.

You let her split the cookie first. If your part looks significantly bigger. accept her split. , If her part looks significantly bigger, break off a part that makes it even. If she agrees, great. If not go to the mediator.


Right now, you have almost the whole cookie. You can eat as much of the cookie as you want until the divorce paper work is filed with the courts.”

I am inferring that you are emphasizing that I need to be wise and careful and not create a lawyer fight that eats da*# near the whole cookie.

[Rockon]

And negotiate the process

[Ready2Change]

I responded by email asking what she wanted to talk about as you had suggested, R2C.

So obviously you ignored this part:

I agree, no response. If you must, wait several weeks.

These are really rough drafts of POSSIBLE responses:

"That doesn't work for me. I believe Email gives each of us time to think and respond appropriately to the other person and clarify any misunderstandings."
"I agree, we do need to reach an agreement in writting"
"What date do you believe we should use as our offical speration date?"
"what other information do you need?"

OR

"There is nothing to discuss in person. All I need from you is your written proposal."

[Ready2Change]

I am inferring that you are emphasizing that I need to be wise and careful and not create a lawyer fight that eats da*# near the whole cookie.

Correct.

[Ready2Change]

From my notes:

Communication
Figure out what kind of person I am currently dealing with. Respond to each type completely different:
1) Wise people listen, so talking to them works.
2) When dealing with foolish people, stop talking and set limits and consequences.
3) If the person is behaving evil, let lawyers and law enforcement deal with them.

Remember, 55% of the message is conveyed visually through body language and facial expressions, 38% is expressed vocally by my tempo, tone and inflections and only 7% verbally through my words. Before speaking, assure all 3V’s are congruent to avoid confusing the listener.

[Rockon]

Ok and you drafted:

“To be clear, I am supporting your decision. I believe you are confusing the word fight with argue. Negotiate might be a better term.

My understand of the process:
The first step in negotiation is your proposal on what you think would be a kind and thoughtful agreement.
The second step would be reviewing, and giving you my counter proposal.
We repeat those steps several times.
If we get stuck, then we hire a mediator to help resolve the differences.

Regards,
Rock”

If I agree with this logically and it makes sense for me then I can tell her I am supporting her decision to work on a separation agreement. And lay out my understanding of a healthy process to negotiate.

I like your language

[JosephS]

My fear is you are going to use whatever excuse you can to stand still. And you not getting a lawyer involved will do that.

If you are a troll, I feel sorry for you, wasting years being here for fun. If you’re not a troll, I still feel sorry for you.

You don’t get it at all Rock. R2C can’t walk you through every conversation, email, text. No one here can. We are not legal professionals. Laws vary state to state country to country. I’ve surmised you’re from the Pacific Northwest, and I’m from the mid Atlantic. I have no idea if your states laws are the same. You know who does? A lawyer. You know what else we are, unpaid volunteers. You knew what lawyers are, paid professionals.

I’m not saying you won’t run into a bad lawyer but there are lawyers out there that charge flat fees and not by the hour so you can’t be taken advantage of. You’ve been separated for 3 years. She can force you into arbitration but hasn’t…why Rock. Only you can answer that.

If you’re happy with the status quo, which it certainly seems like you are, please continue to do exactly what you are.

If you want your life back than do something. This is about saving yourself and you are about 100ft from the ground with the parachute closed. Your wife left the you, you are. So why are you under the impression if you stay the same ole needy Rock she’s gonna come back?

Who comes back to what they don’t want? You ever have a job you hate, but kept going to until you could find another one? You are the job she hates, so be the job she loves. And if it’s to late the still be the man she would love because no grown woman is going to wanna deal with this.

[JosephS]

And not to harp, but I love the job analogy I just made.

So, you have a job, you hate it. Something has happened. Maybe you’ve been taken advantage of one to many times. Or maybe there was one to many broken promises. Or maybe the work life balance is trash. Either way, after consideration and time for things to get better you’ve come to realize they never are. So what are you going to do? You go to work with a smile on your face. You do not give your job any kind of heads up you are about to leave, but you start looking. Finally, after searching and interviews you find what seems to be the perfect job. The money is amazing, there hasn’t been any broken promises, and the job just seems to fit you like a glove. But..there’s still the 2 weeks notice at the other job. You meander through those 2 weeks doing nothing but counting down the days, day dreaming about the new job and how happy you’ll be. Well it finally comes, the 2 weeks are over. You walk out of that “office” confident and so sure you are making the right decision you are even a little pompous about how great things are and will be. You don’t know if the new job will lie, or take advantage but at least there’s hope and you’re already created the perfectness of the situation in your head so you sally forth. You don’t look back at that old nasty job that treated you horribly, until a few weeks later you remember you forgot something at the old office. Or maybe a paycheck is there and you gotta go back and put a little sugar on the situation so you can get what you need. Do you see where I’m going here?


Rock, you are the old employer she left. She found a new employer who fits her better these days. Why would she wanna go back to the old job she left when it’s the same job, boss, location. Well the only way you go back to that is when you don’t have any other choices. So rock, since you’ve made basically zero changes (and no I don’t count the one “dancing” activity as a change) you know if she comes back it’s because she needs to use you some more until she finds a new job. I would suggest if you wanna save this marriage you need to be the best job opportunity she has. If you don’t; you still need the be the best employer for the next. So basically you’re in a lose lose situation until you make some changes.

I didn’t proof read this so if there are errors etc. I apologize I’m at work hiding the cell. Lol

[Rockon]

Thank you Joseph. Good analogy. And I have left a job I hated and am working a job I love (some of it is very similar work but with an employer that is light years better). That analogy hits home. And having benefited from intensive PTSD treatment and adhering now to my maintenance plan I am once again thriving and excelling at work. It is hard and I encounter and deal with triggers and re exposure and I’m doing it well.

Dancing is not the sum of my changes. The biggest change is that I am standing up for myself and my self respect. I have made wholesale changes to how I live and take care of my health and I am totally in the drivers seat and holding myself accountable and utilizing the resources and network I need to stay on track.

I have a lawyer and have a very cost effective arrangement in place. I trust this lawyer and I did get other opinions.

I am not a troll at all. And I wish I could tell you more of my story but this forum is not the place. Maybe so maybe someday around the liberty bell or lounged out and listening to a great band at the gorge in George.

[Rockon]

“ I would suggest if you wanna save this marriage you need to be the best job opportunity she has.”

That’s what I’m going for but not with the outcome that the marriage has to be saved. I am the prize. I am not telling her any of this. Though I have told her that I don’t want to go back to the old marriage.

[JosephS]

I’m glad I finally hit home on something lol. I’m doing my best to give advice like you aren’t screwing with us, but Rock, I meant what I said. You have to be a stronger man to find a good woman.

Her coming back at this point, it just isn’t advisable. She hasn’t learned a darn thing, isn’t sorry, doesn’t want this anymore.

Rock what every single person doesn’t understand when they get here (and I am absolutely included in that) is though this new creature that’s rearing its head is new to you, it’s not to her. She was just hiding.

What every single person that initially comes here fails to see is, divorce busting isn’t for your partner, it’s for you!! No matter if you save the marriage you will save yourself. Now idk about you, but my ex sucked, but I was not the picture of a perfect husband so regardless if she came back or not I needed to work on me. My old marriage was over before I even knew it, literally. However, I still did the work and tried for myself and my kids.

Going on 4 years later, looking back on bomb day…man was I ugly crying that night lol, I’m so damn thankful I’m not in that marriage. Oh no, no I do not wanna spend every single freaking day wondering if this is coming again down the road. That’s who I am as a person, I would have tried to fix it, and went right on back to the old me and the old me would have spent a lot of time trying to be a private investigator. The trust was just gone and boy it wasn’t coming back and quite frankly who wants to live like that? Not me. But others are different and can move on from that, so I do try to help.

Here’s the kicker Rock, no one said 5 years down the line you wouldn’t reconnect after time apart, time to move on, time to change, time to be appreciative of what we have and not what we don’t. Maybe she’ll learn the grass isn’t greener on the other side, maybe she’ll learn it’s greenest where you water it. Maybe she won’t but as long as you are out there living your best life it doesn’t matter if she does or doesn’t.

I suggest lawyers for you, because having one and using it would be a 180 and show her you took them out of her purse when she wasn’t looking. Absolutely no one said you can’t file and than take it back if you both want too. Just one man’s opinion.

[Valeska19]

Joseph has alot of good points Rock.

Change is scary... especially when one "feels" something is at stake.

It would be nice for us to see you make some decisions versus copy and pasting some of the vets' advice. Not really to show us anything - but because you have to live with your decisions and be able to look at the man in the mirror.

A long time ago in my thread - my ex wanted to be friends. She had made amends (she was in a 12 step program) and the board advised me that I try... To act happy and then see if she comes around. But I didn't take their advise. It was too painful for me and I didn't want to be her friend. Today - I still stand by that decision. Turns out she already was in a new relationship. That woman would become her next wife. Years of pain I dodged by staying true to myself.

I don't know if you are able to choose yourself on your own yet. Mostly because you write very vague. Some mention the word "troll" but for me - it feels like more of an "ai bot". Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter... I just hope you can see that YOU are the only one that can make the best decisions for yourself.

[Rockon]

Thank you Valeska

[Ready2Change]

R2C can’t walk you through every conversation, email, text. No one here can.

I agree. The goal is for you change (improve) the way you interact with her (and everyone else).

There is no magic bullet, only your ability to make changes. You have hundreds of other men to observe, and if you see them getting better results, grab some of there beliefs and behaviors. Test them out. Do they work for you? If so, keep them, if not, drop them and stay on the look out.

[Rockon]

Taking some time this weekend out in the wild to reflect rest and refresh. Some prayer, exercise, exertion and rest and solitude. Doing some reading.

I had been working everyday since new years getting ready for the school term as well as other work. Everything altogether was a lot with staying on track with my wellness and healthy habits I have established but I am there. But has it ever been good to take these last 2 weekends off and get away!

DnJ etc I’d like to seek your input and advice. So far I have been putting my plans in place and have undertaken a healthy approach to my finances etc while following though on my legal responsibilities and sticking with what was working reasonably well in how I was managing my separate finances as well cooperating on the shared financial picture with W.

L is drafting the separation agreement and I consider this stage to be where W and I have a chance to negotiate so that we can inform what goes into that separation agreement.

So far, W has balked at my email inviting her to send me her proposal for me to look at even after I clairified that I meant - how she proposed to split up our marital assets.

Here I hopefully get to my question. When I told W be email that I was at the place in my return to work where I am able and want to cover the whole mortgage, she said she thought that was too much to ask of me and she contributed half the mortgage to our shared account as she has been doing. I have reached out to L to navigate this and would like to read your perspective.

Here is what I think I do from here while awaiting input from L:

I continue at this stage to contribute the whole amount of mortgage and accept W contributing 1/2 and I cover utilities maintenance and upkeep of the home. If the shared mortgage funds become adequate I can propose that we take a break from contributing.

What do you see as the best way to manage the tenant rental income ? Tenants rent a suite in the marital home. So far that rental income has gone into our shared account and we have budgeted from that for shared expenses. Would you suggest I propose a change with that?

Thanks for giving this some thought with me as you have some time and from your experience.

[DnJ]

Hello Rock

I’m happy to chime in. It also gives me a break from my cleaning.

A separation agreement is similar to a divorce. It disentangles the couple’s shared financial interests. It also clarifies their ongoing shared interests and responsibilities. It is legally binding. It is a business deal.

A separation agreement is the prelude towards a divorce. It also serves as binding agreement during the cool off period. However, it is not “quite” written in stone. A separation agreement can/may be subject to change when one actually files for divorce. Usually, with no significant changes and/or conflict, the in place agreement was followed and lived with for the cool down time period (or more) and then is just forwarded as the divorce agreement.

Legally, the separation agreement at date of signing, legally cleaves the relationship. There is a time frame when in, if the couple does get back together within a certain time, the agreement and all legal changes therein become null and void. It’s like it “legally” never happened.

Anyhow, to your queries (and a few other items/thoughts).

When I told W be email that I was at the place in my return to work where I am able and want to cover the whole mortgage, she said she thought that was too much to ask of me and she contributed half the mortgage to our shared account as she has been doing.

I continue at this stage to contribute the whole amount of mortgage and accept W contributing 1/2 and I cover utilities maintenance and upkeep of the home. If the shared mortgage funds become adequate I can propose that we take a break from contributing.

I am surmising you want the house.

L is drafting the separation agreement and I consider this stage to be where W and I have a chance to negotiate so that we can inform what goes into that separation agreement.

So far, W has balked at my email inviting her to send me her proposal for me to look at even after I clarified that I meant - how she proposed to split up our marital assets.

Your lawyer is drafting a separation proposal. It becomes an agreement when both parties sign the dotted line. You likely would forward your signed proposal to W for her signature or her counter proposal (actual sending and receiving done by lawyers). Be sure you are satisfied with what you propose, as W might accept it.

Unfortunately, W’s balking at your email did limit the first volley of negotiations. She may contact you after receiving the proposal and be willing to informally converse about things. Or she may not.

Remember this is business. So, keep it so. Assets and liabilities. Custody is likely a non-issue for you.

Starting point:

The proposed date of separation. Could be date of draft or date of W moving out. The later has some advantages. The cool down period might be considered already expired. It shows precedents with a two year informal arrangement/agreement.

Joint monies: 50/50. Pretty easy for cash, accounts, and other liquid assets. Investments and such are more difficult to split. Pension falls into the joint investment category.

Individual assets: Usually each person’s. However, there may be some legal definitions that make some things joint ownership.

Liabilities are similar. 50/50 and each to their own.

The house: As I said, I surmise you’d like it. So, buy her out. Assume the mortgage, and pay W half the accrued equity. (Having a separation date from two years prior will likely have you owning W a bit more equity due to your period of not working full time.)

The tenet income: Take it over. This is a separation. Do not remain in a joint business venture with her.

Alimony: If you are responsible for paying her alimony, you could offer an upfront lump sum payout for her to waive alimony. Or higher monthly amounts for a fixed term. Or go along with whatever the calculations state.

If you are entitled to alimony, you may consider her house equity instead of some or all of monthly alimony.

Or you two are matched and there is little to no disparity. Maybe your two pensions equal out too.

Without actually knowing the amounts I cannot offer much concrete advice, other than there is wiggle room. House equity, business buy out, alimony, pensions, and the 50/50 stuff. All of it can be negotiated and/or waived.

Add in material assets. Basically, your clothes and stuff is yours, and her’s is hers. Pots, pans, appliances, furniture, etc. - a few ideas. Firstly, if W has anything she is really wanting, an heirloom or some such (and you are ok with it), list it and ensure it clearly shows it’s her’s. (And a little goodwill might help.) After that, I’d likely suggest an overall value for all the household stuff which will just stay with the house and you, and just give her that amount on her side of the balance sheet. Selling and splitting up the profits seems too time consuming.

An important clause my L included was that at the time of the signing of the agreement whatever properties, not including listed items, that are in each other’s possession becomes their property. It helped so much. My house wasn’t a storage place, nor a shopping mall that way. Once signed, anything she hadn’t picked up became mine.

What do you see as the best way to manage the tenant rental income ? Tenants rent a suite in the marital home. So far that rental income has gone into our shared account and we have budgeted from that for shared expenses. Would you suggest I propose a change with that?

I’d leave it all as is. Let the mortgage funds accumulated. Just keep track of everything.

Precedent. Don’t mess with the demonstrated history here. W has been able to support herself and not wanting the house for two years.

This is business Rock. You are undertaking cleaving all financial ties with her. That’s the goal and outcome with such an agreement. Like I said, be sure you are satisfied with what you propose, as W might accept it.

D

[Kind18]

You need to grow a pair, Rock.

Where do you see yourself in ten years from now - still coming to an internet forum with random people to ask whether you should say “Hello” or “Greetings” on your next email to her? Or whether to wear black or white socks next time she comes to the house?

You need to read the Buridan’s Paradox:

A donkey, who is hungry and thirsty, stands equidistant from a pale of water 5 metres on his left, and a bale of hay 5m on his right. He is so unable to make a decision on which one he should go to first, he remains paralysed and dies from starvation and dehydration.

That’s you. You’ve been here so long now, and you still can’t make a simple decision. DBing forum isn’t for advice every day on every tiny little decision to try and trick your spouse back - it’s about learning to do it FOR YOURSELF. Growing up. Trusting yourself. Being a man.

I don’t think you should be coming here for financial settlement advice, given you are incapable of making a strong plan and being resolute with your ex-wife.

That’s why you have a lawyer. They know the rules in your jurisdiction, they know what you are likely to end up with, and they can take the weight of dealing with a PITA witch off your hands.

On average, you only get 80 laps around the sun and you die. How much longer you going to waste on this?

[Rockon]

Yes, D, I want the house. It’s a great house, its home and it serves me and our family very well. Great neighbours and community. I can see being in this house for another 20 years or longer it’s that kinda place. Of course I’m open to exploring a better fitting place if my situation and needs warrant it.

[JosephS]

Unless you have the funds to buy her out of her portion you need to consider she’s gonna force you to sell. She’s making sure she’s still financially involved in that house so that’s all you need to know.

[Rockon]

Yes I do have those funds to buy her out. She talked in the fall about wanting to sell the house but last week she said she doesn’t want to.

[Rockon]

I would choose separation date as 1 1/2 hrs ago. Cooling off period has been satisfied.

[Boat14]

Yes I do have those funds to buy her out. She talked in the fall about wanting to sell the house but last week she said she doesn’t want to.

Rock I understand that you struggle with this and is why you are on this forum but I will try to hammer this point home again. Who gives a flying F what she wants to do? Can you afford to buy her out is ALL that matters?

[JosephS]

You live a crazy life man. A few months ago you were broke and had to go back to work if I remember correctly. And now you can afford to buy her out.

Doesn’t matter what she wants. If you can buy buy her out that’s all that matters. If you can pay what she’s legal entitled too I don’t believe she can force you, but again, this is another one of those questions you’ll need to ask your lawyer. Laws very by state and commonwealths etc etc etc.

[Rockon]

It has been a stressful path. I have been able to secure my pension in the last couple months and with the help of a financial planner I see that I do now have the funds to buy her out. Things looked very dire for me in the fall and I was scared and very discouraged. You here on these boards have helped me stay on track and focused and that is what I have been doing everyday.

Boat, yes I agree with you. I was responding to DnJ’s counsel to be prepared and that W may try to force the sale. Indeed, she was loud in that sentiment when I was coincidentally at another low point in the fall.

[Rockon]

I have a mental challenge/hurdle in that we are in negotiation stage and yet I don’t want to do the heavy lifting in dividing our assets.

This is where I find myself and so it requires courage and proposing a settlement I agree with as DnJ has said.

[Rockon]

Had a very satisfying and encouraging day at work to start this week. I received great feedback which was reinforcing for me that supervisors see me doing well. Took a bit of time during a break to have some tears of joy at my progress.

[Boat14]

I have a mental challenge/hurdle in that we are in negotiation stage and yet I don’t want to do the heavy lifting in dividing our assets.

This is where I find myself and so it requires courage and proposing a settlement I agree with as DnJ has said.

Unfortunately the heavy lifting advice usually costs the LBS in the settlement. The longer it drags out the higher likely the WW loses the guilt and receives advice from AP, friends etc and goes back on things they originally agreed to. I know it happened to me. It’s ok if you don’t want to get the ball rolling but once it starts you want to do what’s best for you.

What is the proposal for child support for your adult kids?

[Rockon]

L suggested that with me buying out the house I could propose to waive the amount of child support and reduce the money I pay to buy her out by that amount.

[Boat14]

L suggested that with me buying out the house I could propose to waive the amount of child support and reduce the money I pay to buy her out by that amount.

I think you need a new lawyer. Value of house is X. Can you afford to buy her out? Waiving CS has nothing to do with it unless it reduces the payment to her for half of the house.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Rock

Congratulations about work. Good job! Literally! Haha. Nice to see Rockon2.0 more and more the man in the mirror.

I have a mental challenge/hurdle in that we are in negotiation stage and yet I don’t want to do the heavy lifting in dividing our assets.

I understand not wanting to do the heavy lifting. Heck, I didn’t want to sign my separation agreement. I didn’t want a lot of the stuff that happened. “Wanting” is feeling. Look to your logic and reason. I signed my agreement because I knew it was needed and a good deal, and I completely felt differently.

My advice is: Leave the heavy lifting to the spouse who wants out. However, if you need financial protection or security, take charge and get it.

I think you are needing financial security and stability in your life. (Note, needing not wanting. So do what is required.)

If you’re reading along with MistyDD’s thread, I talked about how the LBS is in a battle with themselves. Heartbreak / loss of romantic love is like that of heroin withdrawal, the LBS will make and follow all kinds of poor decisions in effort to get their next “fix”. I’ve been there, and suffered greatly.

You know, and you feel. And they are likely not congruent. That’s ok. That’s normal.

It’s a most difficult battle. And make no mistake, it is a battle! Yet, you are not weaponless. Intellect, logic and reason, is your sword and shield.

Feelings will stir. Follow your reasoning. Stay on course.

You got this.

D

[DnJ]

L suggested that with me buying out the house I could propose to waive the amount of child support and reduce the money I pay to buy her out by that amount.

Interesting. In my locale child support is one of the only two things that cannot be negotiated or waived.

It sounds like W would owe you child support and in forgoing or reducing those payments you could likely reduce your buy out amount. Sounds reasonable.

Any proposal for alimony, pensions, and old age/social security (or whatever your locale calls it)?

[Rockon]

Yes that is what L suggested - reduce the amount that I pay to W for her 1/2 of the house by the amount of CS I am entitled to

[Rockon]

W actually did volley a mini proposal. She emailed proposing we look after the house together and said she doesn’t want to sell the house and have S and I have to move. She suggested that we continue our investments that come out of our shared account and then later split them in half at some point (undefined timeline). Soon after BD, W had posed that maybe she keep the house and I keep my pension (she does not have a pension).


I plan to let L know about my needs as well as tell L about discussions so far between W and I.

[Valeska19]

W actually did volley a mini proposal. She emailed proposing we look after the house together and said she doesn’t want to sell the house and have S and I have to move. She suggested that we continue our investments that come out of our shared account and then later split them in half at some point (undefined timeline).

Oh... how kind of her! Rock - this is total cake eating. She has everthing to gain here whilst you stay married to a woman who has no interest in being your wife.

Hard pass on this offer. Let this be info on how self-centered she plans to be in this D.

[Kind18]

W actually did volley a mini proposal. She emailed proposing we look after the house together and said she doesn’t want to sell the house and have S and I have to move. She suggested that we continue our investments that come out of our shared account and then later split them in half at some point (undefined timeline). Soon after BD, W had posed that maybe she keep the house and I keep my pension (she does not have a pension).

I plan to let L know about my needs as well as tell L about discussions so far between W and I.

Forward the email to your lawyer, tell your lawyer you won’t entertain any solution where you aren’t completely and entirely disconnected from your wife and let the lawyer sort it out.

You are continuing to waste your 80 laps around the sun with this idiot. Cut the cord. Split the assets definitively, your kids are adults, block her phone and live what’s left of your life.

I get the general advice that DNJ gives to not do the heavy lifting WRT finance, and that’s generally really good advice for newbies. But in my most humble of opinions, that is not appropriate for your situation. This marriage is not salvageable, she’s a manipulative and controlling PITA and seems to have some strange hold and control over every thought you have.

Rock - you are coming to this site to get your answers and find your happiness. But your happiness won’t come from us, or her, or a lawyer.

It will ONLY finally come when you have enough self love and respect to draw a line in the sand.

The answer is right in front of you. You just have to stop hiding from it.

[Rockon]

I am happy especially not being around her and keeping my distance. I see the answer clearly emerging.

[JosephS]

Than don’t be around her and keep your distance. Your mental health and well being are the upmost importance.

And you’ve said you’ve seen the answer clearly emerging or a variation of it few times over a period.

Question is, what are you going to do differently about it?

[Rockon]

I have been in dialogue this week with my L and providing financials and my priorities. I have shifted my thinking and actions to what is most important and my priorities for my life and my family and not that M. I am keeping it to business and not emotional when I do respond to W (email). I am putting a target on where I want to be July 2024 as Steve has suggested.

I am living a strong life and not being weak. Focused on work, health, family, faith, community and friends.

Also shifting my thinking from the unfairness of what W has done and is doing and what she stands to get out of D to the business at hand.

[JosephS]

Not exactly the answer I was looking for.

You’ve said the same things in the past. Talking to lawyer, money, priorities. You’ve said for over a year your priorities are you and the kids.

Keeping it business isn’t strictly an emotional thing, but glad to hear this. So no more family holidays, weekends and get togethers than right?

Put the target where you want it, not where Steve told you a starting point was. It was a suggestion from him to try to get you to change the way you are thinking.

You are living a moral life, not necessarily a strong one. With that said, though Jesus wants us all to fix our marriages and live in a loving moral marriage, he knew we are an evil species at heart and gave us the ok to divorce under circumstances. Even Jesus recognized some marriages will drag a person to hell. Do you know those reasons rock? I guarantee you do.

Keep shifting your thinking about your W. Doesn’t matter what she wants, it can and will change. Focus on you you you. You haven’t yet.

I also want to point out, your response, while throughout and articulate, is the exact reason someone thought you were AI. You have zero emotion in your replies. Just my take

[Rockon]

Hmmm believe me I am encountering and dealing with an incredible amount of intense emotions.
I’ll get back to this. Gotta get back to work from a break

[JosephS]

I get it Rock, we all are.

This is why honest sustained therapy is so important.

Stop looking for reasons to stay stuck and start looking for reasons to love yourself. You are far far more than just a husband or father. Start taking care of the rest of yourself too.

You know the reasons Jesus allowed divorce Rock. You obviously know your ex has hit everyone of them. She cheated and is flaunting it, which is about as ungodly as it gets. Is she a believer Rock, or a believer when it’s convenient?

Your faith is obviously incredibly important to you, and it sounds like it’s apart of your identity. Your ability to take all these 2x4s and don’t even show anger towards strangers on the internet is honestly fairly awe inspiring.

So Rock, as a child of Jesus, as a child from god, how do you think your Heavenly Father feels watching his son waste away because of someone who disrespected their promise to you in front of him?

Honestly I would highly advise you roll out on her asap. But, I’m not ignorant to your goal. Please realize I’m not trying to talk you into a divorce. I’m talking to you into some self respect, because without self respect everything is lost.

Be happy Rock, be content Rock, be interesting Rock, and for the love of god…be human Rock.

[Rockon]

Taking this to heart. Honestly, i am also yelling a lot of consecutive f bombs at times normally when no one else can hear but sometimes in therapy or with one of my 2 very closest friends. And you are right Joseph. I am human after all.

[Rockon]

Today I took S out to the coast for a day that he and I have been planning for awhile with a group of church friends. Several vehicles full of fun friends. Our thing sans W. I had not mentioned it to her.

W showed up and participated with the community. I took space from her, looking after S and having a great time with friends. She initiated some interaction with me and I kept it positive and brief and moved on. It didn’t affect me much either way having her there.

I think I will send a negotiating email to her tomorrow if I have time after church and before S and I head over to watch the game with friends.

Oh last night, I went and saw some great live music with friends.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Rock

I think I will send a negotiating email to her tomorrow if I have time after church and before S and I head over to watch the game with friends.

I’d stick to the lawyer arena.

You’ve given her opportunity to negotiate and from what I understand she’s not provided anything of substance or tangible; just some vague-ness of not wanting to sell the house and let you and son live there. (I’m with Valeska regarding W’s “generous” offer.)

Also, is W trustworthy? What is she actually doing/preparing that she’s not sharing with you? Be careful Rock.

Send no email to W. If, and only if, and only if truly necessary, and even then still I’d likely - go through your lawyer. Anything else could undermine your lawyer’s intent and actions. Undermine your overall strategy. Besides, W could be having her L draft something up to send to your L. Dig for patience.

Its business. Yes? And business is usually conducted on weekdays. Let this go, leave it to your L, and enjoy your Sunday.

D

[Rockon]

I appreciatee this. And yes enjoying Sunday sounds like a good plan.

[Rockon]

Loved my Sunday. Church this morning with D. Had a great time with close friends and S for the big game tonight. Ate good party food. Need to stay on my exercise program that’s for sure. Will have scheduled bloodwork in the am and follow-up appt with doc this week.

Email from W came in with attached list of assets. She proposed a coin toss for alternating pick of items and said she has begun to draft a separation agreement which she will send separately.

She said she had not heard from me in regards to the mediator and went on to say if we can agree on these documents, it’s possible we can find a different solution.

Still enjoying my Sunday. S has gone to bed and I have poured myself a drink.

Nothing to respond to.

[JosephS]

You took your son on a trip that you and him planned…how did your wife find out about this Rock?

2 emails in a week about your assets. 2 emails her lawyer should be sending to yours. The fact she keeps sending them to you and not the lawyer tells me one of two things. You don’t have a lawyer or she doesn’t care that you do and thinks nothing of it. Weird attitude to have during a situation like this.

Something tells me you engaged her Saturday in a conversation that made her feel comfortable enough to come to you with another email.

Devils in the details and we seem to be missing some details.

[Rockon]

I don’t know how she found out about the daytrip. Someone else from church could have invited her.


I haven’t told her I have a L. I don’t know if she does. She sent me an email a couple weeks ago inviting me to mediatio. I asked her to send me her proposal so that I could review it.

On Saturday I had minimal although upbeat interaction with her and did not engage in conversation.

[JosephS]

Why in the world would no one warn you? That’s a pretty crappie thing to do.. to know someone is going through, at minimum a separation, and still doesn’t give them a heads up. I mean heck, I’d give a heads up just so you 2 didn't ruin my trip with the awkwardness..as selfish as that may sound.

I wonder why they didn’t? Are these people under the impression you guys are friends by any chance Rock?

Why pay for a lawyer and continue to have needless interactions? You know where she stands. Don’t sell the house and continue to allow her end of the equity to go up just to force you to sell when you retire? I mean continue to have a way to be connected to her and have more interactions and be plan B or C…..or D.

Rock her proposal was so out there, there was absolutely no reason to acknowledge it. It’s the definition of a non starter. It also shows where she’s at mentally.

If you have your lawyer take over you’ll find out real quick if she has one.

What in the world is a minimal upbeat interaction? Again the devil is in the details..

[Ready2Change]

She initiated some interaction with me and I kept it positive and brief and moved on.

I hope you used protection....

In all seriousness, you still have a lot to learn. You will not nice her back.

[Rockon]

I don’t know why no one told me that’s a good question. She showed up for an hour tops and S and I were there with everyone else for the whole day honestly having the time of our lives. My family and I are loved in this community. She has not spent much time around them since BD, just dropping in once in awhile.

My plan is to forward the email to L as well as the separation agreement W drafts and sends to me.

Minimal upbeat interaction: I was having a great time and didn’t change my tone or presence when she arrived. I gave her a wide berth and didn’t focus on her. She came over and said goodbye when she left at the first few drops of rain. I said goodbye. And S and I stayed to the end.

She texted a meme about Grandkids preferring their Grampas to me today and followed that with, “Everyday I wonder if I’m doing the right thing. You are a really good man. You brought up counseling many times in the past and I never agreed to go.”

Rock: crickets

[Rockon]

I do have a lot to learn.

[JosephS]

She showed up for an hour tops and you hung out with everyone else? So…she was by herself the whole time? Doubtful.

You and the family are so loved by the community….seriously? Your community loves cheaters who take international trips to cheat on their husband? Sounds like a crappie community. Find a new one. Find one she isn’t a part of. Like we’ve been telling you…for years. You won’t though, you need these interactions.

I thought she already sent you the plan? Why wait for another one?

I don’t believe the last interaction happened at all. Your son doesn’t have kids, your grand child is states away, per your previous posts, and you son is an adult. Why in the world would she send that? Makes zero sense. Plus she knows you’re a “good man” Rock, now off to her boyfriends. If that interaction happened it’s an incredibly disrespectful thing to send.

[Rockon]

I definitely don’t feel respected by her and I have no idea why she sent it but nothing to respond to.

She has not sent me her proposal like I asked. She sent me a list of our assets and said we could toss a coin to decide who picks first. She said she would send a draft of a separation agreement separately and I haven’t received that.

At the coast she hung out with the group but I kept some distance and my attention on others. It was uncomfortable for me that she was there but I didn’t allow that to derail me having a great time.

[JosephS]

If she sent it, it was to temp check to make sure you’re still plan B. Thus why the don’t sell the house.

You shouldn’t feel respected. And quite honestly you disrespect yourself by continue to put yourself in places she’s gonna be.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a nice day and not have to talk about her?

You keep putting yourself in these situations.


I really think you need to go NC, find a new group of friends, give your kids the space to make a new life away from your and your wife’s nonsense and find who you are without them.

[Ready2Change]

I do have a lot to learn.

Increase your understanding of attraction:

Youtube:

Casey Zander

When Women ask "What are we"

[Ready2Change]

Hey Rock,

Any updates?

[JosephS]

What is going on Rock? I’ve seen you’ve logged in at least a couple of times since the last post here.

[Catman19]

I just joined DB and I'm at the same stage as Rockon, my house is going on the market in 3 weeks. She also suggested to me we keep the house, I said no way, the house is dead to me and continuing owning it with her and then having a 3rd party (OM) involved is not something j would ever want, not to mention having the legal/financial connection to her. She even tried to buy me out by saying she would, I know her income, I found it highly dubious, so I asked her to put it in writing either through our mediator or lawyer. It seemed to me like a stall tactic. I say either you guys buy one another out or sell the house. Do you really want to be in the house where your marriage was destroyed? Reliving memories or owning it with her and having to deal with OM. Not a healthy sitch, heck I hate going home I stay out as late as possible only use the place for basic human functions. I think she's toying wjth you much like mine is, unless it's on paper from a lawyer it ain't worth what she says.

[Catman19]

I would just initiate mediation, they will ask for full financial disclosure from separation date then you 2 can negotiate with mediator directly. She's just pretending to go through the process and dragging it out because she is either confused or doesn't take this seriously and you are allowing her to feel this way by waiting for her to deal directly with you. I'm in the same boat as you brother difference slightly as I forced the mediation issue and have consulted lawyer before her. Make everything clear in front or a professional you cannot deal with her directly she is still being irrational and by suggesting tou both keep home is just more delusion and her having her cake with you

[JosephS]

Rock? Did something happen that you’re struggling with?

[Rockon]

I have started to type an update a couple of times and then haven’t posted due to fatigue, Joseph, R2C and everyone.

I am coping and following the plan with what I know is important for my well being. No catastrophes or crises and still I have been struggling.

Work continues to go well and my focus is there and my family and closes fiends. I’ll update more specifics hopefully shortly.

[Ready2Change]

I am coping and following the plan with what I know is important for my well being.

Take care of you.

[JosephS]

I’m sorry Rock. Take the time you need for self care sir.

[Rockon]

Thank you friends.

I’m doing well and doing my best Joseph with self care. When I have some energy I will tell you about it.

One of my friends lost his son suddenly and tragically in February. Turning to his pain and being there for him is important and deeply meaningful to me and it has touched off painful emotions in me.

I have been processing and acknowledging so much anger this winter and also looking at pain, sorrow, loss underneath.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Rock

My condolences to your friend. The loss of a child is devastating and heartbreaking. Glad he has a good friend like you is his life.

Continue processing your anger, sorrow, pain, and loss. And yes, your friend’s loss will stir things within you. Perfectly normal and healthy.

Keep walking your path.

D

[Rockon]

I have attempted to connect at times here to give an update. Thank you for caring and reaching out friends.

I’m carrying on my path doing my best which is pretty good all things considered. S’s health has been a challenge this summer. Lots of appointments and consultations. It’s a burden and concern and one that I embrace as father.

W left the country to be with OM again and didn’t tell me she was going. Felt the sting of abandonment all over again. I had really been detached but this shows me I’m not altogether indifferent. I am ignoring her except matters about S. Hoping to settle division of assets and buy her out of the house soon.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Rock

I’m glad to hear from you.

How is the mountain biking going? Putting on lots of miles? Do you ride mostly roads or trails?

Son’s health needs are burdensome. Man to man, well done! Keep showing up. Keep embracing. Doing what is right.

W left the country to be with OM again and didn’t tell me she was going.

Focus on you. Don’t give two figs about what she’s doing. Or where she’s going. Or what she tells or doesn’t tell you. Focus on you.

Felt the sting of abandonment all over again. I had really been detached but this shows me I’m not altogether indifferent.

Follow the sting. These are your emotions. Your feelings. Find why. Find and make peace with them/yourself.

I am ignoring her except matters about S.

Good. Let’s take it up a notch.

“I’m focusing upon myself, living and loving my life. W and I do interact in matters regarding S.”

Ignoring her, then becomes a byproduct not the purposeful activity.

Hoping to settle division of assets and buy her out of the house soon.

Likewise, I hope things proceed smoothly and timely for you.

Take care of yourself my friend.

D

[Rockon]

Thank you D. Yes the mountain biking is most excellent. I am building my skills gradually and have a great small group of friends who make it even better. Trails and skills parks and some leisurely summer rides through town to get coffee or ice cream.

I appreciate this emphasis: “ Let’s take it up a notch.

“I’m focusing upon myself, living and loving my life. W and I do interact in matters regarding S.” ‘

[Kind18]

Good work Rock!

Mountain biking with mates is one of the places I found myself during my divorce.

During COVID I went several times a week. I still normally get out once a week to do some riding.

It’s definitely a cup filler.

[Rockon]

My best friends ride together on avg three times a week and also go on some pretty epic destination mtn bike trips annually.

Kind I have also been starting to sprint and lift some heavier weights more intensely to add to the hiking and running.

[Kind18]

Good man 💪

Weights training is the #1 exercise you can do for mental health.

I have attempted to connect at times here to give an update. Thank you for caring and reaching out friends.

I’m carrying on my path doing my best which is pretty good all things considered. S’s health has been a challenge this summer. Lots of appointments and consultations. It’s a burden and concern and one that I embrace as father.

W left the country to be with OM again and didn’t tell me she was going. Felt the sting of abandonment all over again. I had really been detached but this shows me I’m not altogether indifferent. I am ignoring her except matters about S. Hoping to settle division of assets and buy her out of the house soon.

This also is good. Sounds to me like you’re making progress towards being less affected by what she says/does. It’s good that I start to see a bit of indifference in your language now.

Think back - one year ago, I guarantee her disappearing overseas with OM would have destroyed you much more than it did this time.

It’s important to consciously identify your progress here. Is it easy when she disappears overseas with OM? Absolutely not! But you reacted much better this time than you did before.

It proves that success is coming. Is it fast? Is it easy? No. It’s slow, it’s incremental - but it’s happening.

Definitely some self improvement to be proud of here.

[Rockon]

Hi everyone. Plugging along here and plugging in to what fuels my well-being, joy and focus on my path.

Work has been going very well and in and of itself is a tremendous vehicle for me to be thriving. I had to get well to be able to get back to work and remaining focused there is definitely good for me. Continuing to work with my network and ensure that I meet milestones and stay on track.

Family relationships are going well. Youngest D is in college and moved in with her M over at GMs and that seems to be going well. D is over here a few times a week with or without her BF and I see them also at church.

Youngest S is really doing well lately. It was an arduous (to say the least) number of months with his health challenges and he has gotten back pretty much to his happy special needs self and doing very well here at home with me and having a lot of family love. He spends time with his M and that has been going well, including some visits (an hour or two at a time) with her over at GMs.

Eldest S is doing well and our F-S connection is really positive and very satisfying as he is really hitting his stride as a fine young man.

Eldest D and GD are doing well and we connect by phone. Making plans to visit over the holidays.

I have great connection with my core group of friends and have been making some other friends. Biking, hiking, lifting weights, music and dance are going strong. The leaders have asked me to demonstrate with a partner some of the moves that we have been learning in class and complimented my progress in becoming a good lead so that has felt good.

I continue with counseling and find that to be very helpful.

Interactions with W have been centered around S and the details that support her to be informed to care for him and also anything important. We have been continuing to have our weekly check in conversations about that and that seems to be going well as far as I have been concerned. Other than that I had been sticking to email, keeping it business like with the 24-48 hr mark unless urgent to respond if necessary and a question. Negotiations about assets including the house are progressing albeit slowly.

Having said that, W has been sending me some really kind and complimentary texts over recent weeks. Like ones affirming the character and strengths she sees in me and recognizing my values I live out and how much she appreciates me and how my son has such great care and a good home with me. I haven’t responded to any of those texts.

And she got upset. She texted:

“Whoever told you only to communicate with me about S is out of their mind. Our old pastor told me you want a divorce (I didn’t tell him that though we have talked about all kinds of things including that possibility), and it looks like you don’t want a friendship or to be able to support our family together so I’m just here in limbo. Im not sure how we can ever move forward without talking to each other”…”You have been my best friend for over half my life and I am telling my friends I just don’t get it. I don’t know what’s going on.”

I haven’t responded.

[DnJ]

Hello Rock

It’s good to hear from you. I am glad to see life is going well. I definitely agree, getting back to work and its required focus and routine to be a good thing.

Interactions with W have been centered around S and the details that support her to be informed to care for him and also anything important. We have been continuing to have our weekly check in conversations about that and that seems to be going well as far as I have been concerned. Other than that I had been sticking to email, keeping it business like with the 24-48 hr mark unless urgent to respond if necessary and a question. Negotiations about assets including the house are progressing albeit slowly.

Good. I’d keep it business-like, with 24-48 hour delay before your response (if response is necessary).

Having said that, W has been sending me some really kind and complimentary texts over recent weeks. Like ones affirming the character and strengths she sees in me and recognizing my values I live out and how much she appreciates me and how my son has such great care and a good home with me. I haven’t responded to any of those texts.

Words vs actions.

Good on you not responding, IMHO. Her words, kind and flowery they may be, lack sincerity when actions do not match. Stick to your path.

And she got upset. She texted:

“Whoever told you only to communicate with me about S is out of their mind. Our old pastor told me you want a divorce (I didn’t tell him that though we have talked about all kinds of things including that possibility), and it looks like you don’t want a friendship or to be able to support our family together so I’m just here in limbo. Im not sure how we can ever move forward without talking to each other”…”You have been my best friend for over half my life and I am telling my friends I just don’t get it. I don’t know what’s going on.”

I haven’t responded.

lol. Well, I’ve suggested only communicating with her regarding son and/or other business related matters. Along with a chorus of others from here. Her feelings regarding such advice does make me chuckle.

Do not respond. Let her stew.

She’s been living at her Mom’s for over two years now. To me, it looks like she is baiting you into an argument. She sends a “nice” text, you don’t jump like she figures you should, and she gets upset. Let her. Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.

W blames you in her upset text. “it looks like you don’t want a friendship or to be able to support our family together so I’m just here in limbo.” Don’t fall for it. She moved out! She left! Friendship? Supportive? Together? Words vs actions.

Rock, if/when W is ready you will know. Her actions will match.

Continue as you are doing. Responding only to her business related and/or important family texts. No R-stuff.

Her being upset is a good thing. Folks who have given up or quit, don’t care. They are indifferent. They don’t get upset or hate or anything. Now, don’t break out any champagne, I’m just pointing out a wee sign of positive progress. Where it leads. Well, you know, time will tell.

Negotiations about assets including the house are progressing albeit slowly.

W initiating and taking steps to cancel this ^^^ would be a pretty good “action”. An action initiated by her of course.

It’s only a couple of texts. Treat it as such. Keep on your path and your hard-eared healing and health.

Keep living and loving your life Rock.

D

[Kind18]

“Whoever told you only to communicate with me about S is out of their mind. Our old pastor told me you want a divorce (I didn’t tell him that though we have talked about all kinds of things including that possibility), and it looks like you don’t want a friendship or to be able to support our family together so I’m just here in limbo. Im not sure how we can ever move forward without talking to each other”…”You have been my best friend for over half my life and I am telling my friends I just don’t get it. I don’t know what’s going on.”

This is garden variety manipulation. She’s desperately trying to illicit a response from you.

She’s like an addict - your responses are the drug she craves.

No response was a VERY wise move.

The old you couldn’t possibly have grey-rocked a tasty bait like that.

Look at you go - more great progress.