1 month in, still lost - MLC, OW, WAS

[Sunflyer]

I'm realising now just how often he did that throughout our marriage. I hate conflict and people being upset with me so I'd bend over backwards to appease him. I even talked to him about it, told him he made me nervous when he was angry and mentioned how at times like this, he'd get more sexual favours. He'd never realised and looked ashamed and apologised to me.

I understand. I have also been this conflict avoidant type. In my case, I wouldn't try to appease her; I'd just back down. BIG MISTAKE. If something wasn't working for me, I'd try to just keep the peace. What I did, of course, was open the door for her to just keep doing what she was doing regardless of impact.

She is needy, insecure, childlike, immature and needs constant reassurance. He's not good with empathy and his love language is acts of service, often around food and alcoholic drinks, neither of which interest her much. She's 35, still lives at home and hasn't had a relationship longer than a couple of years. Also claims she doesn't want children as she's 'too old'. They bonded over discussions about their wayward childhoods, childhood photos, music he listened to before he met me, food he loved growing up etc.

There are so many red flags.

It's hard to see what a younger, slim, pretty woman would see in him.

I think I have an idea what she sees in him, and it's right in your first sentence above. She's looking for someone to make her feel "secure," at least until the next prospect comes along, and judging by her track record, there will be another one, likely a lot of other ones.

He has got a powerful cocktail of hormones and neurotransmitters percolating from his brain, so he is blind to this. She makes him feel good (and maybe younger), and he's walking right into her spiderweb.

My W is the same about her current younger partner, cooing over the phone about how "hot" he is.

[MrP]

Even last night, I went to sleep and he couldn't help himself from coming into my bedroom to wish me goodnight and give me a kiss and cuddle.

Hey Misty. I guess I'd reframe this statement (because you have control over how you respond/react) to read "I didn't stop him from giving me a kiss and cuddling with me".

You said in a previous post that you're not ready yet to enforce some boundaries. I suspect you'll hear many people here agree with me when I say that, until you do, things will likely continue "as is" if not get worse. Your H is getting to have a little taste of whatever lifestyle he likes and keeping everything just within reach until HE feels like deciding one thing or another.

You're also criticizing him ("It's hard to see what a younger, slim, pretty woman would see in him") so I wonder what you see in him that leads you to value him enough to continue enabling his behavior?

[Sunflyer]

Thing is, we weren't unhappy, I thought we were stronger than we'd been in years. He has some underlying issues of not feeling happy and relaxed at home as he felt I was always expecting him to do stuff even when he was exhausted. A simple conversation could have resolved that!

This is very common. Unsuspecting spouse thinks everything is great; meanwhile, the other one has dissatisfaction bubbling under the surface but would rather avoid than discuss. Or they will say, "You should have known I had this problem."

I'm sorry to hear that and I'm hoping that the changes you see in yourself are positive ones.
It's been almost a year since I first started having suspicions about the friendship.
9/10 months since I first accused him of having an affair.
7 months since they admitted their feelings for each other and 6 months since he told me he'd fallen out of love with me and didn't have feelings for me anymore.
So it's been BD after BD.

Definitely positive changes! I have hope where I didn't before (not for my marriage, but for me). That I know I can come through this. That there's so much I can still do with my life. That I am special and worthy of better than my wife has been giving me.

I'm sorry you have gone through everything you have. I know how much it hurts as I've been there too.

Ahh, this is where I'm finding it so hard!! He's acting like he wants me to chase him and tell him how much I love him and only him and that I'm devastated by the loss of him. Which will be boosting his ego as he's got two women chasing after him. I've been thinking he needs to know how much I still want him, otherwise the OW seems the obvious (only) option. But it seems in doing that, I'm only devaluing myself.

I felt that if I backed off and acted like I don't want him, this justifies his decision. But actually when I was pulling back from him, he seemed more upset and more like he was doubting himself.

Misty

Have you heard the monkey analogy? "The monkey never lets go of the branch it's on until it has another one that will support it."

He "love bombs" you, especially if the OW is not available to him for a time. When she is available again, back to her he goes. It's manipulation, because he is afraid of the consequences you might bring down on him, so he plays with your emotions and tries to get you to feel like you can't stand to be without him.

Backing off can make an impact. When I closed down all but essential communication with my wife, and started being out of the house to take time for myself regularly, she started suspecting that I was having an affair/relationship with someone else! She asked me about this, and I told her nothing. Let her think what she wants. And I think she finds it odd that I don't pry into her affairs more. I think she might be wondering about damage control and what I might be saying to other people.

You will see this discussed in the Divorce Remedy book. Sometimes when you back off and GAL (get a life), the other spouse starts to notice that you might be okay moving on without them and they suddenly take notice.

[MistyDD]

Update: I kicked H back to the sofa on Monday night, went to sleep in my bedroom (small house, sofa is 10 feet from my bed) and was about to doze off only to find him looming over me to give me a kiss and cuddle goodnight. He slept very badly - he has a bad back and is not used to sleeping alone.

Tuesday night as I was heading out to meet friends he was dozing in my bed whilst the kids watched tv. I offered to put the light out and told him just to stay there and catch up on sleep. One of his main complaints about our marriage was that he felt too pressured by me to do tasks round the house even when exhausted and despite me telling him to sit down and relax. So I've been trying to make it clear that I've no expectations of him now that we're not together.

He insisted he was going to get up anyway and make the kids lunches for school the next day. I then went out. When I came home he was still asleep in my room so I sent the kids to bed and settled down on the sofa. He awoke in the night and went to the loo but didn't offer to switch places. We were both then awake at 4.30 and he asked again if I wanted my bed back so I went to it and he also stayed in it. Hugged me, caressed my head, wrapped me up in blankets and tucked me in like a child. He was worried I'd not been eating for a few days so went to make me boiled egg on toast and hot chocolate whilst also cleaning the kitchen and prepping our evening meal. He then sat chattily telling me all about stuff going on at work so I listened and showed interest.

Yesterday was a breakthrough for me in not sending him any messages but today he was quite chatty and checking in on me. I ended up sending him a couple of messages in the style of the 12 word hero trigger texts thanking him for breakfast.

Then I got a call from school saying my 11 year old's poor behaviour has escalated to the point that he's likely to be sent home for a few days. He's been taking photos and videos in class, uploading stuff online he shouldn't, being rude (he's under ASD/ADHD assessment) and other parents have complained about his language and bullying other children.

I'm struggling so badly now, I'm angry at H this afternoon for putting us through this and being in denial that his decision to leave us has caused a spiral in both our children.

The DR book arrived and fell open at the 'Last Resort Technique' section. It sounds like this is relevant to me as H has been adamant that he wants to leave and be with the new woman. We are telling people that we are separated, sleeping in separate rooms but not distant, there's still communication and affection. I've stopped sexual contact since he's still in a relationship with another woman but I'm unsure about letting him stroke me head, hug me, rub my feet etc. The LRT suggests being loving but how far does this go?

I've done the rest of the LRT suggestions, stopping the chase, no more sending him memes or marriage stuff, just messages of appreciation when he's done something I think should be acknowledged. No other messages unless about kids/domestic stuff. I wrote him a letter of appreciation the other day and he loved that but I won't do any more.

I'm also following GAL and going out as much as possible, to the pub with friends, using free gym passes. Cooking at home again and H suggested a family meal at the table Friday so I'm happy to go along with that.

I'm now making changes, trying to GAL and in wait and watch mode to see if any of it makes a difference. He does already seem to be taking a bit more of an interest in me and is certainly more concerned about me.

[MistyDD]

I've now read and read the most important sections of the DR book to me:

Last Resort Technique
Infidelity
Midlife Crisis

On Infidelity, p.214 talks about When He Won't End The Affair
It mentions that people will call me a doormat (nearly all do!) and to trust my instincts. That I'm in for a tough battle with pride and emotions getting in the way and that it will take courage, stamina and blind determination. My friends are quite annoyed with me not following their advice so I'm being very selective in who I tell that I'm following DB.

It says I need to work out what appeals about the OW and better fulfil that need. He's told me straight out that she makes him feel happy and relaxed. So I'm making no demands of him at home as that was a huge issue and I'm trying to be loving, in good spirits but a little detached. I'm ensuring the house is cleaner, doing more home cooking, trying yoga, going out more. He had said that he'd noticed I'm listening more and not interrupting so when he wants to talk about his work, listening actively and gently prompting him to tell me more with follow ups.

I'm also cutting back on the messages, letting him message first and only contacting him about the kids/domestic issues. However the messages and memes were a huge part of the emotional affair he had with the OW so I do send him the odd joke on Instagram which he appreciates and responds to and he sometimes does the same. Keeping up communication with no pressure.

Problem is that by following this, he seems happy and pleased to see me and wants to spend time with me watching tv etc. but this also makes him more affectionate and he's wanting to kiss and cuddle me which I know isn't recommended! I'm trying to gently enforce boundaries but I'm worried about pushing him too far away again. The book says I need to be the person my spouse wants me to be so that he might realise the grass is not greener on the other side. So I'm no longer mentioning the OW, the affair or his plans to move out.

Just taking it day by day. I know H feels very guilty and he seems to have some doubts but I've not asked how he is feeling (and nor will I). H sometimes mentions future finances or co-parenting together but is making no concrete steps towards moving out that I can see, other than transferring his salary. I don't ask what he might be doing behind the scenes though and he claims to have been paid less this month which is a huge red flag.

Ultimately though, he still holds resentment over past issues, is embarrassed that lots of people know he's left me for a younger woman (and is a cheat) and finds it easier to cut ties and move on than backtrack and fix the problems and face the judgement of others.

[MistyDD]

I understand. I have also been this conflict avoidant type. In my case, I wouldn't try to appease her; I'd just back down. BIG MISTAKE. If something wasn't working for me, I'd try to just keep the peace. What I did, of course, was open the door for her to just keep doing what she was doing regardless of impact.

H and I are both conflict avoiders for the most part which means our rows can be epic at times. We both back down to keep the peace. He says I'm very manipulative and used to get my own way as I was an only child - there's some truth in this. However he was also not disciplined after losing his dad at 15 and was a wayward teen/young adult.

She is needy, insecure, childlike, immature and needs constant reassurance. He's not good with empathy and his love language is acts of service, often around food and alcoholic drinks, neither of which interest her much. She's 35, still lives at home and hasn't had a relationship longer than a couple of years. Also claims she doesn't want children as she's 'too old'. They bonded over discussions about their wayward childhoods, childhood photos, music he listened to before he met me, food he loved growing up etc.

There are so many red flags.

It's hard to see what a younger, slim, pretty woman would see in him.

I think I have an idea what she sees in him, and it's right in your first sentence above. She's looking for someone to make her feel "secure," at least until the next prospect comes along, and judging by her track record, there will be another one, likely a lot of other ones.

He has got a powerful cocktail of hormones and neurotransmitters percolating from his brain, so he is blind to this. She makes him feel good (and maybe younger), and he's walking right into her spiderweb.

My W is the same about her current younger partner, cooing over the phone about how "hot" he is.

I agree. They are both deeply insecure and constantly complimenting one another to make the other feel good. Not sure how long that can last for though. I do wonder about the 'secure' part as he probably comes across like that at work but at home he was a manchild and I did all his life organisation. He can perhaps promise her emotional security but not financial or housing and doesn't want another child. Even emotional security is flimsy as he is supposedly in a relationship with her but hasn't made a clean break from me yet and that's aside form the trust issues given how they got together.

She definitely makes him feel good and I think bonding over childhood/teen stuff makes him feel younger too and fits with the MLC.

He used to say how attractive she was. Day to day, not so much so but she transforms when she wears make-up and apparently turned lots of heads at the work Christmas party as people didn't recognise her. Just days ago though he sent me a list of my good qualities and included that when I dress up on a night out, guys are definitely eyeing me up too.

[MistyDD]

Hey Misty. I guess I'd reframe this statement (because you have control over how you respond/react) to read "I didn't stop him from giving me a kiss and cuddling with me".

You said in a previous post that you're not ready yet to enforce some boundaries. I suspect you'll hear many people here agree with me when I say that, until you do, things will likely continue "as is" if not get worse. Your H is getting to have a little taste of whatever lifestyle he likes and keeping everything just within reach until HE feels like deciding one thing or another.

This is what I keep being told and I'm trying so very hard to listen but the DR book seems a little tricky to follow in this regard. Last Resort Technique says to stay loving and the Infidelity section covering 'when he won't end the affair' says to trust my instincts and be better than the OW at what he feels is missing. He's not got physical contact with the OW as she's away till May and they've not yet had sex (which was always the most satisfactory part of our marriage and something H always said was perfect.)

You're also criticizing him ("It's hard to see what a younger, slim, pretty woman would see in him") so I wonder what you see in him that leads you to value him enough to continue enabling his behavior?

I don't mean to criticise him, I find him very attractive and he has many excellent qualities. Like many 45 year old men though, he is overweight, balding and has some minor health issues.

However if I was in the OW's position, he's not the best prospect for her. He can't offer financial security (high debts) housing security (can't get mortgage), doesn't want another baby, doesn't have a car or driving licence. Even love and emotional security will be flimsy given they've got together through deceit and cheating. He also has two very rebellious teenage boys who will be hard to handle for a highly strung woman unused to dealing with children.

She's attractive and could get plenty of men her own age who could offer her a more secure and easier life. So either it's true love between them or she's a nightmare partner who struggles to hold down a relationship and latched onto my insecure and needy H to flatter and chase.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Misty

I’m glad you read DR and those three sections resonated with you.

If you re-read the responses on your thread, they likely will resonate differently than at that first reading.

On Infidelity, p.214 talks about When He Won't End The Affair
It mentions that people will call me a doormat (nearly all do!) and to trust my instincts. That I'm in for a tough battle with pride and emotions getting in the way and that it will take courage, stamina and blind determination. My friends are quite annoyed with me not following their advice so I'm being very selective in who I tell that I'm following DB.

Yes, there is a battle with oneself, with their pride, with their emotions. However, you are not weaponless in all this. Intellect. Rationalizing. Logic and reason are your sword and shield in this situation. Cleaving negative feedback loops and deflecting baiting arguments as a couple of examples. Keep your sword sharp and your shield bright.

It is wise to be selective with whom you share DB with. For me, I told my closest supportive friends of my desire to save my marriage. To stand. I let them know I understood how they may not quite get my desire. And I asked them, even with not fully understanding my choice, to help me hold to my path. To not work to dissuade me. To support me when I falter.

This path, these decisions, were made in moments of calm and rational thought. Times when my emotions were not tarring me apart, or leading me to other paths.

This is what I keep being told and I'm trying so very hard to listen but the DR book seems a little tricky to follow in this regard. Last Resort Technique says to stay loving and the Infidelity section covering 'when he won't end the affair' says to trust my instincts and be better than the OW at what he feels is missing. He's not got physical contact with the OW as she's away till May and they've not yet had sex (which was always the most satisfactory part of our marriage and something H always said was perfect.)

Remember, the LRT’s purpose is to put a stop to the destructive dynamics of your present marriage and situation. It does not fix the underlining issues and causes.

The LRT is basically 180’s on steroids. And is for, well, a last resort. When our spouse has filed for divorce, physically separated, have basically nothing to do with each other, and such. From your posts, I don’t believe your situation is at that level of dire.

I would say the “Experiment and Monitor Results” would be more apt. Step five of the seven steps.

Of course, there are four prior steps. Which need to be worked on. And they are in an order for a reason. Step one, Start with a Beginners Mind is really important to limit our prejudices and life experiences from colouring the actions and decisions. Like I said, DB is pretty counterintuitive at first.

I also think that your situation will benefit from “Ask for What You Want”. I mean there is benefit from all chapters/steps, just that your H sounds/seems more receptive than most that arrive here. Letting him know, also instils within him, a wee feeling that it is possible. Something his prejudices and life experiences is telling him otherwise.

A big thing in all this, is you’re not manipulating H. You’re giving him time and space. Being clear and direct. And letting the chips fall as they will.

Unfortunately, at 45, and with H’s behaviours, there is a likelihood of a problematic midlife transition, or even a crisis. Hoping it’s only the former.

Still, your path is pretty much the same. Limit pressure. Give time and space. Focus on you. GAL. Act as if. All to take the focus off of you and allow H time to see his pains and problems instead of blaming and projecting them upon you.

Have a great day my friend.

D

[MistyDD]

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom! I have read the other chapters too but not in as much depth. Much of this work I'd already done over the prior 6 months of trying to save it so I'm further along the path than I'd realised.

On Infidelity, p.214 talks about When He Won't End The Affair
It mentions that people will call me a doormat (nearly all do!) and to trust my instincts. That I'm in for a tough battle with pride and emotions getting in the way and that it will take courage, stamina and blind determination. My friends are quite annoyed with me not following their advice so I'm being very selective in who I tell that I'm following DB.

Yes, there is a battle with oneself, with their pride, with their emotions. However, you are not weaponless in all this. Intellect. Rationalizing. Logic and reason are your sword and shield in this situation. Cleaving negative feedback loops and deflecting baiting arguments as a couple of examples. Keep your sword sharp and your shield bright.

Do you mean me or H battling with pride and emotions? Or both. Can you elaborate a bit on what weapons I do have? I'm not quite clear what you mean here.

It is wise to be selective with whom you share DB with. For me, I told my closest supportive friends of my desire to save my marriage. To stand. I let them know I understood how they may not quite get my desire. And I asked them, even with not fully understanding my choice, to help me hold to my path. To not work to dissuade me. To support me when I falter.

I've only shared it with one family member who understands, everyone else gets annoyed I'm not just giving up and letting him go

Remember, the LRT’s purpose is to put a stop to the destructive dynamics of your present marriage and situation. It does not fix the underlining issues and causes.

I've fixed the underlying issues as best I can. Whether he can ever truly forgive me for past issues is another matter but I cannot control how he feels about them. We no longer discuss it and I refuse to be blamed or guilt tripped over it anymore. I'm trying to do the same for him and have started biting my tongue when I want to blame his actions for the obvious pain that the children are suffering.

The LRT is basically 180’s on steroids. And is for, well, a last resort. When our spouse has filed for divorce, physically separated, have basically nothing to do with each other, and such. From your posts, I don’t believe your situation is at that level of dire.

I would say the “Experiment and Monitor Results” would be more apt. Step five of the seven steps.

He's due to be moving out next month so we're very close to physical separation. I'm not pushing him out though. If he wants to stay longer, would it be in my interests to agree? Or best to have a bit of space to let him feel the weight of his loss? Everyone is pushing me to get him out as it's confusing for the children and bad for my mental health.

I also think that your situation will benefit from “Ask for What You Want”. I mean there is benefit from all chapters/steps, just that your H sounds/seems more receptive than most that arrive here. Letting him know, also instils within him, a wee feeling that it is possible. Something his prejudices and life experiences is telling him otherwise.

He knows exactly what we need to succeed. We've both discussed it in depth. Clearer communication, him to talk about feelings, him to help with budgeting and meal planning (he's doing meal planning now). Me to cook more, have the kitchen cleaned, listen better and not interrupt and not place too high expectations on him and let him be relaxed at home.

However he is not interested in working on the marriage at all anymore, he believes it's too late. Says he's 'made his bed and has to lie in it'.

A big thing in all this, is you’re not manipulating H. You’re giving him time and space. Being clear and direct. And letting the chips fall as they will.

He did say a lot could happen in 5 months but I think he was more thinking that the OW might decide she doesn't want him after all, not that we could reconcile. What should I be clear and direct over though. I told him he has a choice and his decision isn't irreversible but that means he knows I'd take him back and that takes the power away from me with no reason for him to improve/chase/see me as the prize.

Unfortunately, at 45, and with H’s behaviours, there is a likelihood of a problematic midlife transition, or even a crisis. Hoping it’s only the former.

The more I read about MLC, the more I think this is more of a transition. I don't see a lot of the MLC unhappiness manifesting, he's never said our marriage was bad or that he didn't love me, isn't rewriting history to that extent.
It seems to me that the OW has awakened a longing for his lost youth and a time of fun and less responsibility. However he's still doing all he can for his kids and is still looking out for me and not being too financially controlling (he even bought me boots the other week as an unexpected gift).

Still, your path is pretty much the same. Limit pressure. Give time and space. Focus on you. GAL. Act as if. All to take the focus off of you and allow H time to see his pains and problems instead of blaming and projecting them upon you.

Act 'as if'? What does that mean?

Thanks again, much appreciated, Misty

[Sunflyer]

I agree. They are both deeply insecure and constantly complimenting one another to make the other feel good. Not sure how long that can last for though. I do wonder about the 'secure' part as he probably comes across like that at work but at home he was a manchild and I did all his life organisation. He can perhaps promise her emotional security but not financial or housing and doesn't want another child. Even emotional security is flimsy as he is supposedly in a relationship with her but hasn't made a clean break from me yet and that's aside form the trust issues given how they got together.

Emotional security is more of what I was thinking of, but I agree that she's probably not thinking about what that really means. People who get into affairs are typically using them like bandages to cover up internal issues of their own. I certainly feel your H is doing this. I don't understand how anyone can move into another relationship while they're still living with a spouse or not working to resolve existing roadblocks of their own. This is not inviting a positive outcome.

Drawing from my own experience, I feel that my wife is not capable of feeling satisfaction in her life without a man. It's like an addiction. When her previous affair (with someone known to the whole family, including me) broke up, she seemed to feel down for several months, and then she met her current AP, and she jumped right back into the game.

I was alone for much of my life before I met my wife; I only had one brief relationship before I met her. So I was used to finding satisfaction by myself. I had ways to occupy my time. Now I'm essentially alone again. Although we are not yet separated, she hasn't been a wife to me for a year now, although she will make meals for me if it doesn't conflict with whatever else she is doing.

I'm using this time to work on healing myself, not just in terms of accepting that we are divorcing but also working on improving the faults and mistakes that I made in my marriage. I don't want these issues to interfere with any future relationship I might have. And I am making progress with the aid of DB and the people on here. She's got faults of her own but instead of taking a break and using this period of her life to address them, she's just going right into more relationships.

Like I said, bandages. Not wanting to admit they need to work on themselves. And it sure sounds like your H has work to do.