MLC Hubby wants to move out

[job]

They do tend to take their wedding bands off. In their minds, they think that is telling the world that the marriage is over. He will probably leave it at home or wear it and then take it off at the vacation spot. It is really difficult to figure out what is going on with them. Their brains are so scrambled and so many misfirings along the way that it takes a long time for them to figure things out, if ever.

He is treating you like a friend, i.e., talking about safe subjects like work. Right now, he can't deal with talks about marriage or your relationship. If you are okay with safe topics, then I would listen and respond when necessary.

You are handling your situation quite well. I hope that you are doing well. This madness takes a toll on the mind, body and soul.

[RegretfulLA]

You are handling your situation quite well. I hope that you are doing well. This madness takes a toll on the mind, body and soul.

@Job - thank you. Sadly, I have gotten really good at detachment over the years. The walls went up a long time ago and now I can just put them back up pretty easily. It's a pretty effective defense mechanism and some say it's a healthy practice (maybe not in a marriage but with regards to other bulls***t in life).

I actually am doing ok. H is broken and hasn't been the kind of H I have wanted for a long time, so rational me wonders why I would want to be with someone like that and it makes it easier to detach. I look at the wedding ring sitting there and I feel sad but I also feel like that if he wants to self destruct, that's on him. Like I said, this has been going on for years.

H went on a short overnight business trip and I do not plan to call/text. H can get the message that I am not that interested in whatever he is doing.

I guess not having the ring on makes him feel somewhat empowered but I'll be damned if he ever uses the word "we" when he has to explain this to our families/friends/whatever. This is 100% him and I will make sure everyone knows that.

[RegretfulLA]

We are back from our vacation! It was a great trip - fun, and we all got along for the most part which is pretty good for a 10 day trip. H was on good behavior and we spent a lot of time together - sitting together on plane, sleeping in same bed etc.

One night there was a huge street party going on and H said he was going out for some ice cream. "This is it," I thought - he's going to go out and not come back until 3 am. But, he came right back. We got along just fine and had a few laughs but he was careful to avoid any physical contact. He lets me touch him without pulling away but does not reciprocate ever. And the wedding ring stayed at home. All things considered, I would rate the trip "slightly positive" - as in, mostly neutral but more positive than negative.

S20 and S18 both had their moments on this trip and H and I were aligned as far as how to deal with them. Suffice it to say I am not enjoying this phase of parenting. I have a lot of empathy for WAS's - these kids try my patience in every way possible.

I'm trying to become more open to the idea of getting a D. It isn't what I want, but I'm so unhappy in this situation. I am going to work on this with my therapist - exploring why I feel so afraid about it. Today H left on a business trip (yes, one day after returning from Europe) and he gave me a hug and kiss but at first turned his head and the hug was absolutely empty. I felt so rejected and awful. The man makes me feel terrible and I owe myself so much more. The fact that I put up with it makes me feel even worse - like I have no dignity, like I am desperate. I am normally anything but a doormat. Even in better times, H was less attentive than I would have preferred, but this type of rejection has been a pattern (on and off) for the last 25 years.

I have known my H since the age of 12 and I think I have probably been trying to get his attention since then.

I guess it is time to admit that I *might* be happier without him. Right now I'm not seeing this situation resolving without a separation.

This is where the DB'ing gets so hard. Putting on a brave face and trying to ignore his BS behavior is next to impossible. I need some DB advice here. I stopped saying I love you and I guess I should just mirror his behavior and not hug/kiss ever, even when he's leaving for a few days?

My birthday is coming up in July. I do not plan to mention it or make any plans with him. I may turn the tables and disappear myself.

On the plus side, H is an entrepreneur and things are going well in his business. He says he plans to double his salary which would allow him to move out.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

I’m glad the trip went well.

these kids try my patience in every way possible.

LOL! I hear you!

They do test and push one’s buttons. Perfectly normal stage of rebellion in preparation of leaving the nest. They are firstly spreading their wings and more they need to know you are rock solid in loving them. As in, no matter what they might do, you do and will always love them.

They will test the boundaries to see how strong they/you are. Not in a mean way, or even a recognized way, it is just part of growing up.

MLCers do it too - rebelling and growing up from when they were emotionally stunted - which is far more troublesome with the accumulated wealth and joint assets. Brash angry rebellious teens don’t affect/threaten our financial picture that much, a spouse does.

This is where the DB'ing gets so hard. Putting on a brave face and trying to ignore his BS behavior is next to impossible. I need some DB advice here. I stopped saying I love you and I guess I should just mirror his behavior and not hug/kiss ever, even when he's leaving for a few days?

Yes DBing is difficult, is counterintuitive, can feel wrong - at first.

It’s about creating/having a mindset based more on rational logical actions/reactions. Oddly, one’s emotions follow suit and emotional understanding, acceptance, unveils itself.

A few tips/advice:

“Putting on a brave face and trying to ignore his BS behavior is next to impossible.” Word choice/usage is important. Your mind is always listening and will create your reality as you ask it to.

Act as if, is a good method forward. However, wording can detract one from attaining it as easily or quickly as they might. Example: Do or do not, there is no try. “Trying” gives you a way out. It allows you / your mind to be ok with not, in this case, not ignoring H’s behaviour. Do ignore his behaviour instead of trying to. That mindset comes at the same problem scenario from a different tact. One better likely to gain the desired result.

Impossible is another word that worms its way in. If we categorize something as impossible, well you can see how much effort we’d likely put into such a futile endeavour. Use difficult instead.

From above, you can see I struck out “problem” and used scenario. Again, how we define things has a lot to do with how we approach and resolve them. No need to make problems, enough will find you on their own.

Mirroring H’s behaviour is a good thing. Let H lead the direction and pace of interaction. As to not hugging, kissing, even if H is leaving for a few days. Ask yourself, who are doing it for? H turns away. H has stated he needs more space.

H needs to feel the loss before he will start to realize what/who he is turning his back on.

Expectations. Dial those to zero. I know, difficult, right? Unmet expectations lead to resentment. When on your trip and H went out to get an ice cream, you expected he’d not be back until 3:00am. He came back right away. How did you feel? Oddly, likely a bit of resentment. Even an unmet negative expectation instills a reactionary resentment. It’s weird how a positive will feel negative. Dial those expectations to zero.

Focusing on self helps with expectations. And a whole lots of other stuff. It’s not ignoring H or his behaviour, rather shifting your focus on to what and who you can control. Shifting your focus on to what and who is most important. You can (and will) still see what H is doing, which is perfectly ok. You just won’t be dragged about or make as many decisions based upon his mood / behaviour / words / actions.

My birthday is coming up in July. I do not plan to mention it or make any plans with him. I may turn the tables and disappear myself.

Well, a pending Happy Birthday to you!

I agree, do not mention it to H. No point fishing for gifts or compliments from him.

I’d really consider getting away for a day or two. A gift to you! Focusing on you. A 180 for you.

As for mentioning it to H (and the kids). I suspect you are not one to just disappear. You are far too responsible and level-headed for that. I’d give him a few days notice. Just let H know you are going away for a few days and will be back on x date.

Even in better times, H was less attentive than I would have preferred, but this type of rejection has been a pattern (on and off) for the last 25 years.

Have you have clearly let H know how rejecting his behaviour is? I suspect you have. If not, do so. Ensure you have set the bar for H cannot read your mind. Then it’s up to H if he puts in effort to reach it or not. Boundaries for disrespectful behaviour, holding H accountable for his actions. Of course, you can only control you in this. Pursuit and distance. Let him feel the loss and start pursuing you.

he gave me a hug and kiss but at first turned his head and the hug was absolutely empty. I felt so rejected and awful. The man makes me feel terrible and I owe myself so much more. The fact that I put up with it makes me feel even worse - like I have no dignity, like I am desperate. I am normally anything but a doormat.

Absolutely! You are not a doormat!

Another tip for you. H doesn’t make you feel anything. True, he certainly does trigger feelings. However, you are reinforcing your feelings.

Feelings are fleeting. Let them flit.

Beliefs, convictions. Ah, that’s the bread and butter. Believe in yourself. You have dignity. You are worthy. You are strong.

Do not give your power away.

Sadly, I have gotten really good at detachment over the years. The walls went up a long time ago and now I can just put them back up pretty easily.

In my view, you are beyond the time/need for walled-off detachment. Focus on you. Keep your heart soft and squishy.

A walled-off heart certainly keeps things out. It also keeps things in. Making it much more difficult to let go of anger, hatred, hurt, anguish, grudges, retribution, etc.

Being able to bring up your protective shields is excellent. A hard-earned and most worthy lesson and skill. Now, on to lowering it. Letting go of some things. Don’t fret or fear, you know you can bring the walls up in an almost instant.

Beliefs. Values. Convictions.

Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which you aspire to. Discard/alter that which does not serve.

Let go of feeling terrible because of what H does or how he treats you. There is a deep belief within you to adjust here. There was for me. Poisonous words and actions from our spouse take time to transmute.

“makes me feel even worse - like I have no dignity, like I am desperate.” Believe in you. No matter how H treats you, he cannot shake your foundation. Lovingly let go. Soft and squishy. For you!

Hope you have a great day.

D

[MamaG]

Hi RegretfulLA!
Sorry to meet you (boy that sounds odd, doesn't it)?! Glad you had a great vacation especially considering the circumstances.

Stopping in to tell you that the way you describe that hug and kiss definitely resonates over here.
Some days the hugs were warm and somedays they were so empty.

he gave me a hug and kiss but at first turned his head and the hug was absolutely empty. I felt so rejected and awful. The man makes me feel terrible and I owe myself so much more. The fact that I put up with it makes me feel even worse - like I have no dignity, like I am desperate. I am normally anything but a doormat.

I guess it is time to admit that I *might* be happier without him. Right now I'm not seeing this situation resolving without a separation.

I have these days...."might" be happier without him. H and I are no longer living under the same roof. While his move out day was one of the hardest days of my life, in hindsight, it may have been the best thing that H could've done for my mental health. As LBSes, holding back our feelings and thoughts and words isn't easy - I know you know! Having your own place will allow you to offload feelings, thoughts and words without H being around to hear/see it all. And, H may very well learn what you bring (and H is losing) in life.

Still, after centering myself, I stand for our marriage. Maybe you will too. Maybe you won't. As a newbie, I'd tell you that you're not convincing me that you'd be happier without him especially since your sentence includes the quoted word "might".

Dig for patience and compassion - I know you have practice in this space. Hugs and prayers to you.

[RegretfulLA]

I thought I had made another reply a few days ago, but it doesn't seem to be here. I have read everyone's replies - thank you for your kindness and encouragement.

Here's my latest update.

A few days after we got back from our trip I got Covid and isolated in our back house for a week. It's like a little studio apartment so it was fine back there and I had everything I needed. I'll try to make a long story short here and hit the high and low points of the experience.

First of all, when I told H I had Covid (he was out of town) he didn't even ask me how I was feeling. I find that to be really strange - I mean, that's just basic courtesy! He was on and off with me regarding checking on me and cooking (for the family) vs. ignoring me and leaving the rest of us to our own devices.

I spent the week mostly feeling angry. I realize that I have a high need for control especially when it comes to managing the household and the budget. To not be able to do that was painful. Some might say "this is an opportunity for others to step up", which they did as much as they could, but these are not areas that I wish to outsource. This is Mama's domain. We all still eat together when people are home, and I do the cooking. This is something that I enjoy and choose to do. A couple times when no one could manage to make dinner I had to do it - or let's say, I chose to do it vs. the alternative of eating cereal or soup or whatever.

I wasn't really sick except for the first day or two, but I was hoping for a little more sympathy and attention. While I was in quarantine I watched a TV show about a woman who disappears and her whole family thinks she's dead, but in fact she just ran off because she felt like her family didn't appreciate her. I can relate, lady.

Now I'm better and back in the house, and I woke up this morning and realized that I really don't want to be around H. It makes me feel bad to be around him. I have some GAL lined up, including my birthday, but being around him physically is painful sometimes. Being away from him was a nice break. He's so cold and detached, except when he has something to say or share. I feel invisible. Sometimes I think I could be dying and he'd step right over my body to get to the refrigerator.

I mentioned to him that the boys spent a lot of money at the grocery store while I was quarantining and there still wasn't anything to cook for dinner. His response was "that sounds like a gripe" and followed it up with something like "but you can't help your personality." That was the match that lit the house on fire and we had it out... he reminded me that "he's unhappy" and wants to do a trial separation and he's stuck here because I told him he needed to wait until S18 went off to college. He's unhappy and he can't pretend and he can't fake it until you make it.

I am unhappy too. I didn't think I was unhappy before BD, but maybe I have been and I have been not admitting that to myself. Nobody wants to admit that their marriage might be over, but it's becoming more and more clear to me that the current situation isn't tenable and isn't going to improve.

Another part of this whole thing is the timing. We are about to be empty nesters. This is a tough time regardless, and I realize I have built my identity around being a mother. The house is my castle. In another era I would have been a happy homemaker. So now, it's not just the mother identity that is changing but the wife identity as well. That is too much identity change at once. Of course, I want my sons to be independent - that is the point. But I feel like I'm losing everything all at once and I feel very, very alone.

On the other hand, this could be an opportunity for a fresh start. I am not opposed to that, I'm just fearful of the unknown. Except for 6 months, I have been in a relationship since I was 22 years old. I had one boyfriend for about 5 years and started dating my husband not long after that. I have no idea how to date or to be single. I do know how to be independent but I don't know how to be single.

Also, I feel like I'm doing a terrible job DB'ing right now because of all of these feelings. I am already so stressed about S20 not having a job and S18 possibly having his college admission rescinded because of a bad grade, and having to take out an additional loan to pay for S20's college and trying to climb out from under our mountain of debt. Plus all the normal household stressors. I can't even engage with the news/politics right now. I don't have any cycles left. At least my job is good!!!

The one thing that H did say today is that "we need some time apart so we can repair our relationship." He also did say he loved me in that conversation, but that doesn't come through in our interactions. H does not mention D, he only mentions S and has said he does not want D. It all feels like rejection to me.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

when I told H I had Covid (he was out of town) he didn't even ask me how I was feeling.

Yep. Limited emotional bandwidth and nonexistent empathy are pretty common for folks in depression and turmoil. They have some much pressing in their minds, others are, even must be, pushed aside.

I spent the week mostly feeling angry. I realize that I have a high need for control especially when it comes to managing the household and the budget. To not be able to do that was painful. Some might say "this is an opportunity for others to step up"…

Sorry your week was a frustrating one. It’s good you understand your need to be in control. So, yes, lack of such would trigger feelings of angry. Yet, feelings are fleeting - unless they are reinforced. Ask yourself, really dig into it, why/how did you reinforce those feelings?

You know you cannot control others. Sure, there was an opportunity for others to step up. You can’t make them. Expectations lead to resentments and feelings. The bigger opportunity presented before you - is for you to step up. Not in making the house run smoothly. Beyond that. It’s letting go of your need to.

Certainly, when things go sideways feelings are triggered. Damp down, control thoughts and actions which influence your feelings. Less reinforcement towards those angry feelings. It’s letting go of need and ego. Needing to control.

these are not areas that I wish to outsource. This is Mama's domain. We all still eat together when people are home, and I do the cooking. This is something that I enjoy and choose to do.

You do not have to outsource anything. Keep cooking. Enjoy it.

but I was hoping for a little more sympathy and attention.

Something to dig into.

I’d also hazard that you were more expecting than hoping for more sympathy and attention. Perfectly normal, and deserved I’d say. However, a crisis H, and two adolescence/young adult boys usually are ill-equipped to know how to show that. Or perhaps say it in a manner more in tune with you. Love languages and such.

That was the match that lit the house on fire and we had it out... he reminded me that "he's unhappy" and wants to do a trial separation and he's stuck here because I told him he needed to wait until S18 went off to college. He's unhappy and he can't pretend and he can't fake it until you make it.

(((Hugs)))

It’s ok. Remember, H will push and bait you into arguments.

So, you both had it out, somewhat. It’s ok. It cleared the air a bit. Back to your path. Focus on you. Leave H’s baiting attempts alone.

“but you can't help your personality.”

Let me ask you something. Are you good with who you are?

Our spouses know us better than anyone else. They know which buttons hurt the most. Know what to do or said to get a rise out of us. And usually include just enough of a wee kernel of truth in their tale to make us question/doubt ourselves and everything.

So, are you good with who you are?

Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which you aspire to. Discard/alter that which no longer or doesn’t serve.

All for you!

Let go what H feels/thinks about you. Let go the fretting and worry about what H feels/thinks about you. H is lost, and is going to blame you and dig for any manner of justifications, or simply make them up. He has to.

Be good with who you are. For you.

Another part of this whole thing is the timing. We are about to be empty nesters. This is a tough time regardless, and I realize I have built my identity around being a mother. The house is my castle. In another era I would have been a happy homemaker. So now, it's not just the mother identity that is changing but the wife identity as well. That is too much identity change at once. Of course, I want my sons to be independent - that is the point. But I feel like I'm losing everything all at once and I feel very, very alone.

Oh yes. Kids leaving is a stressful time. Lots of change. Lots of redefining of who one is. Or maybe more uncovering what was there all along. You know, convictions and values.

For what it’s worth, make no big changes for a bit due to these new feelings that arise from the kids’ normal growth, moving out, and becoming independent. Feelings are fleeting.

My relationship with my four kids: I’m still Dad. Sure, it’s different. Less day to day interactions. The frequency of parenting stuff is less often, and yet kind of more sought after. The kids do still reach out.

I did have to let go some stuff though. My need to control and be right. Allowing others, my kids, to make mistakes. LOL! Which is of course, is my perception. I’m not the arbiter of right and wrong. Some/lots of what they do is better than how I did it. They do have mistakes teaching moments, opportunities to learn and gain wisdom. Haha, just like their Dad did in his day!

I am unhappy too. I didn't think I was unhappy before BD, but maybe I have been and I have been not admitting that to myself. Nobody wants to admit that their marriage might be over, but it's becoming more and more clear to me that the current situation isn't tenable and isn't going to improve.

Isn’t going to improve… unless?

My happiness (or unhappiness) is up to me.

I love my kids. I’m very proud of them. They bring me lots of joy. Yet, their lives do not feed my happiness. I do. My life does. Which of course, they are a significant part of.

Happy (and therefore unhappy) comes from within. A difficult lesson to realize. We are responsible for how and what we feel. Feel long term, not the triggered short term stuff.

And long term is the realm of beliefs. Those deeply held values, convictions, tenets, principles.

Your situation is improvable. Absolutely!

Your situation. You can save you. And along the way, give yourself your best chance at saving your marriage. That’s DBing.

On the other hand, this could be an opportunity for a fresh start. I am not opposed to that, I'm just fearful of the unknown. Except for 6 months, I have been in a relationship since I was 22 years old. I had one boyfriend for about 5 years and started dating my husband not long after that. I have no idea how to date or to be single. I do know how to be independent but I don't know how to be single.

A start. You’re already in one. Embrace the golden opportunity.

Also, I feel like I'm doing a terrible job DB'ing right now because of all of these feelings. I am already so stressed about S20 not having a job and S18 possibly having his college admission rescinded because of a bad grade, and having to take out an additional loan to pay for S20's college and trying to climb out from under our mountain of debt. Plus all the normal household stressors. I can't even engage with the news/politics right now. I don't have any cycles left. At least my job is good!!!

Glad your job is not heaped on top too.

Yes, there are plenty of stressors. Big breath. Deal with what you can, and let go the rest.

The one thing that H did say today is that "we need some time apart so we can repair our relationship." He also did say he loved me in that conversation, but that doesn't come through in our interactions. H does not mention D, he only mentions S and has said he does not want D. It all feels like rejection to me.

Time and space. H needs it. Most of his present journey - whatever that may be - will be hidden from view.

It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon.

Focus on you. Find your happiness. In does not live in H’s words or behaviours, nor lives within your marital status. Your happiness lives within you.

Hope you have a great day.

D

[RegretfulLA]

A better week this week! I am feeling much better physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Let me ask you something. Are you good with who you are?

Yes. Yes, I'm totally good with me and have never been all that invested in what anyone else thinks. This has gotten me in trouble a few times - you have to make a good impression!

Let go what H feels/thinks about you. Let go the fretting and worry about what H feels/thinks about you. H is lost, and is going to blame you and dig for any manner of justifications, or simply make them up. He has to.

Be good with who you are. For you.

^^This is what I've been focusing on this week.^^

A friend invited us to her house for the 4th - H was invited as well but I told her he probably wouldn't come. I let him know that I was going to attend and he was welcome to join, but I pretty much knew he wouldn't. Yesterday, I let him know what time I was leaving and was expecting him to say he wasn't coming and I was right, he didn't come. Knowing that he was probably not going to attend, I wondered to myself if I would have a better time with or without him - did I really WANT him to attend?

I realized that it's not that I wanted him to attend - it's that everyone else's H was attending and I didn't want to be the only one without an H there. That was my issue. My friend who hosted knows we're having trouble, so I just told everyone else he was golfing and that was that. I had a great time and I did not miss H one bit. Many times I have a worse time with him than I do without him.

H spent the day cleaning out the tool shed (which might be routine for a lot of guys but NOT my H... he never does stuff like that). Acts of service are definitely a love language for me. I don't think he did it in service but he did mention it. H also didn't eat too well but I got to have hamburgers and yummy picnic food.

H did come with me to watch fireworks but didn't even get out of the car. We could see the fireworks from the car, but I got out to talk to someone I knew and he didn't even get out to say hello. Nor did I ask him to - I just let him be. If he wants to be that way it's his problem.

I would venture to say that H has been slightly nicer and more communicative.

• He went to the neighbor's house and texted me to let me know.
• He went out tonight with his friend and said goodbye before he left.
• Earlier today I was in the bedroom folding laundry and he came in there and lay down on the bed while I was doing my thing. He didn't have to be in there with me. He chose to.
• I gave him a subscription to NY Times games for Father's Day and now we can actually talk about that together. It's a point of engagement.
• I texted him tonight something to do with S18's college while he is out on his man date and he actually texted back.
• I have an important meeting on Monday and I asked him if i could use his home office and he said "of course". (I work from home on Mondays and my desk is in the kitchen, which is not easy with 2 boys constantly in and out of the refrigerator. One time, I was on a call and H came in and started running the blender!!!!!)

On the other hand, on Wednesday I asked him a simple question and he didn't respond and when I asked him if he had heard me, his response was "I don't feel like talking to you right now." I let him know that that is no longer going to fly with me.

Next Friday is my birthday and I have plans to go to the beach and then to go out and see some comedy with a friend. I haven't mentioned any of this to H and he hasn't said anything about my birthday. I figured I'd get ahead of the game instead of setting myself up for disappointment. I went ahead and quietly bought myself the gift that I would have asked him for. (I might buy myself another one too!)

And I'm working on setting up GAL all over the place... lots of people looking for friendship and things to do, as it turns out. I got asked to participate in a craft fair at the end of the month. I even got inspired to send my headshots to a modeling agency specifically for 50+ women with grey hair. (Yes, I fit that bill). One of the women at the party yesterday is a grey hair model now and she loves it. I checked out the website and these are just ordinary women - some beautiful, some not. Some skinny, some not. Some tall, some not. WHY NOT?

So coming around full circle, it matters not what H thinks/feels. My therapist and I are working on building my life back up around ME. It feels really empowering!

[RegretfulLA]

One other thing... I'm not much of a social media user, but I pop on Facebook every now and again. Well, I popped on tonight and after the third "I've been married to you for 20+ years of wedded bliss" post, I popped right on off and right over here... no sense rubbing salt in any wounds.

[grok]

One other thing... I'm not much of a social media user, but I pop on Facebook every now and again. Well, I popped on tonight and after the third "I've been married to you for 20+ years of wedded bliss" post, I popped right on off and right over here... no sense rubbing salt in any wounds.

I identify here! and in my case...until I muted anything showing up from W....memes she would give a heart or thumbs up to with "TruLuv4Evar" and "I will never need anything but you" poems. They were NOT about me.

I've been limiting myself to occasional postings of my own with my kids for family and friends. I stopped looking at generated feeds. It wasn't good for me.

g