2nd Time Around (Thread #2)

[MrP]

Had our counseling appointment yesterday. Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.

W brought up a good deal of her historical concerns (not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair, and a smattering of other issues) and now with MLC and menopause not being interested in sex.

The counselor asked why come to counseling at this point with D looming. W said it was because I didn't to divorce. When the counselor turned to me, I clarified that 1) W asked me a month ago about trying counseling again and 2) I've come to accept that we may reconcile or D and am OK with either outcome. If we can reconcile, I'm on board with trying. Further, if the only reason W wants counseling is because she feels I don't want to D, we probably shouldn't be doing counseling.

W struggled to tell the counselor what she meant by not feeling like I put W first. The only example shared involved my mother and a struggle between them around how we celebrate Mother's day. For years, we tried having my mom, MIL, SIL and, W celebrate together. W felt like she never got to be "The Mom". I'd asked what that would look like and W really couldn't say. I offered suggestions like "Do you want to go away for the weekend? Should we just tell everyone we're doing our own thing?" and even said "I'm going to do X" to which she historically responded "Well, I want to see why my mom (MIL to MrP) wants to do first...." So I told the counselor I feel stuck in a bit of a loop.

Regarding money, I make double what W does. Before we got married, we agreed to split our budget in proportion to our income. I cover 70-80% of our expenses; W the rest. As time passed, W felt like this was unfair (because I still have a surplus from not being a spender). I've offered to revisit our budget or pool money (as of 6-7 years ago). I've tried to set up time for us to work through it. W doesn't like talking about money, has social anxiety, and just avoids the discussion. Hard to solve something when one party just wants to complain and not do the work. W somewhat acknowledged the mixed messaging here.

We covered some additional ground about what we want to get out of counseling. I said W is really driving the show because we've got mediation in a month and the court was pushing for the D to be done in about 2 months. W wants to go back for more counseling and is talking with her L today about options to delay/postpone the D.

Another point of recap...the first time W filed for D in 2018/19, I put in a ton of DB work to the point that W told our counselor at the time that I'd "become the perfect husband". Before that, I'd describe our issues as common solvable ones described by John Gottman in his well-researched books. W has high social anxiety issues, like is an avoidant attachment style, and a confessed perfectionist. I'm not perfect, but admittedly I've increasingly felt like these issues and some past trauma/abuse that W suffered are at the core of our relationship at this point. A prior MC went so far as to tell me that our marraige won't move forward until W deals with this past trauma.

I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation. Thoughts appreciated. Right now, I'm still a believer in MWDs philosophies about D not being a real solution. Just a bit tired of the amount of mental effort (and impact of physical wellness) with this counseling, mediation, and possible D all coming to a head right now. Phew. Time to stop. Thanks for listening. Be well, all.

[grok]

MrP,

Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.

I kind of get the feel for the shape of it, but ... it may help to define: What parts felt productive, to what end?

not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair

These feel like WAS reoccurring themes, especially after many years and perhaps complacency that comes with it. My W pointed out that although I would do things for the family, I would more rarely do things for her alone. Times when I would deliberately exclude everyone else. It seems all Ws compete in some way with their MIL. As far as money, my W says now I was always hard to talk to about it. From my perspective I almost never said no to any request. I just made it happen though she could see the stress it caused me. I think I should have said NO much more often.

Are they really root issues? Or just things more easily talked about or easily identified? Seized on justifications to walk away?

I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation.

I considered then rejected MC because my W hasn’t ever really wanted to try since BD1. Well before I found MWD’s books and this forum, I recognized it takes two to be useful. That said, everything I read here shows that which MC you have and their approach makes a tremendous difference. I think my reference standard is MWD own thread here:

Hi Everyone,
Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented 

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71642

g

[MrP]

Hey Grok. Thanks for the comments. It was productive because the counselor did tease out of my W a few areas where W (for the first time) acknowledged her contributions to problems. For example, telling me that we together as parents should take a specific stand on a topic with our daughter and then, when our daughter pressures W, W caves in or sets me up to be the bad guy ("Ask your father...") so the "team" crumbles pretty quickly. And, just the fact that W agreed to come back for a 2nd visit and said "I like this MC" are huge steps for my W.

Definitely WASing here and some MLCing (gray hair noticing, tattoo wanting, etc.). Also, given W's social anxiety and past trauma, my sense is W just believes "life" doesn't work out her way and neither will this....and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point. I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.

You're right. The MC like any therapist can make a huge difference and is a very personal choice. Tough to have the time, money, and stamina to weed through them or restart the process if you get the wrong one. We'll see how this goes and thanks for the thread reference. I agree that is a good benchmark for what to look for in a good counselor. Be well!

[grok]

and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point.

I've been -ruminating- over John Gray's Mars/Venus books interpretation of this. Paraphrased:

~When a woman is stressed she feels a need to talk about her feelings and ALL the possible problems that are associated. No priorities. Not concerned with solutions. Seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. Through exploring her feelings she finds awareness of what is really bothering her. The more talk and exploration, the better they feel. If not feeling heard and understood, she may expand further, even to other peoples problems.

Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the intricate details of solving a problem, a woman is fulfilled through talking about the details of her problems~

I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.

This year I'm wondering if this isn't a version of testing. i.e. Can you call me on my BS when I am off the rails? Are you stronger than me like I want you to be?

g

[MrP]

Hey Grok and all. Things have been busy at work so I'm playing catch-up. Grok, your reference to John Gray is spot on here. I agree there may also be some "testing" happening here.

Our new MC is doing a good job of pulling some things out of W that she's been unwilling to let surface or acknowledge. I've been happy with our progress. W told her L to postpone mediation. She is talking more often about continuing to work things out, and doing a better job of clearly and directly telling me what she wants or needs. She's also acknowledged that she's not spoken up in the past when she should've.

It is almost like she needed the MC to help show her a way back from filing for D. We aren't out of the woods yet. I continue to practice DBing, GALing, and balance the application of Sandi's rules with being responsive to W's positive efforts. It is tough to strike the right balance and, more days than not, I feel good about my words and actions under the circumstances.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful for others out there to hear. Keep working, applying the lessons and experiences in our community, and asking for help. Positive outcomes will happen.

[MrP]

Just checking back in after some heavy work at the "day job". Things have been cruising along here in Limboland. I'm balancing GALing with being responsive to W's outreach related to MC "assigned" activities, recreating some fun/humor in our relationship, and seemingly everything in our home deciding it was time for repairs/maintenance at once!

Over Mother's Day, I opted to spend it with W, D14, and my in-laws. My mother was unhappy (again if you've continued following my sitch; W and my mother can get to be at odds over where I spend the actual day). My IC and our MC advised that W should come first. Even marital guru John Gottman advises the same in his books. So, I feel like I've been on good, objective ground in that choice. W was pleased that I put her first. Mom...isn't talking for now and that too is understandable to some extent.

W's attorney is pressuring her to make up her mind. W postponed mediation once and seems to be a bit panicky about the L's pressure. She's also worried about continued conflict with my mother. I told her that I see why she feels that way. I gently suggested that it was a good thing she married me and not my mom...trying to balance some humor without invalidating how W feels. We've got another MC appt this week so we'll see what that brings.

I've got two concerns coming up that I'm attending with friends and a whole host of the usual summer graduation parties to attend plus a wedding or two. The nicer weather helps me want to get out of the house and accomplish more, whether fitness-related or just outdoor maintenance work. I may have to swing over to the local brewery tonight to try out their new releases.

Be well, everyone. Keep plugging away at strategies recommended and in MWDs various books. I know how it can feel terrible and like a long path at times. I recall thinking "How will any of this help?" or "But this is the complete opposite of what I feel I should do or want to do". And, keep in mind that you're working on YOURSELF most of all. MWD's book on changing your life and everyone in it is steeped in lots of honest self-work. It means confronting things about yourself that you may not want to surface or like to admit. But, that is where the real work lies. It has made me much more thoughtful about my intentions, and more careful in my word choice and actions, and that work continues. Take care!

[grok]

It is almost like she needed the MC to help show her a way back from filing for D.

Since the WW/WAS cannot trust US at this point, they need someone outside they will take advise from. Someone that can show them there are other possibilities than the only solution they can conceive. In your case, it seems the MC is filling that role.

I'm balancing ... and seemingly everything in our home deciding it was time for repairs/maintenance at once!

I hear you. Why does trouble all come at once? Something about being tested...? Balancing gets difficult. This past year for me to fix - Upstairs shower leaking to lower ceiling. All three toilet seals start leaking. Water heater fails. Pipes in walls start rattling as if they broke loose. Washing machine fails. HVAC drain clogs three times in the middle of the night. Multiple fire alarms fail...in the night of course. Multiple light switches fail. Sprinklers break, needing to be dug up and replaced. Kitchen faucet fails. Dishwasher fails needs parts replaced. W's vehicle tires need full replacement a year early because of unrepairable flats, AC fails twice under warranty. My vehicle wheel speed sensor fails, water pump fails, starts mild pull to one side with a "clunk", needs new tires. I'm sure there was more...

W's attorney is pressuring her to make up her mind. W postponed mediation once and seems to be a bit panicky about the L's pressure.

L's incentives are misaligned with hers...otherwise known as the "principal-agent problem." Differing interests and information asymmetry. How to have W feel she is able to start/stop/pause that D process any time she d@mm well pleases? L is her employee. There is no time limit to this stuff.

The Ws and their feeling like they have to satisfy a L or Mediator is/was odd to me. I respect them for their expertise and will strongly consider their advise. I don't feel I HAVE to do what they say or suggest. I am in charge of me. My W however, felt like she HAD to follow through with every piece of advise or suggestion the Mediator said. I asked her why once. "G, she might be upset with me if I don't. And we HAVE to get along with her." This felt foreign to me. The Mediator is a hired expert there to advise. The Mediator might be upset, and we might not get along. The Mediator is a respected professional and is accomplished at doing the task either way.

...W should come first...
...
Over Mother's Day, I opted to spend it with W, D14, and my in-laws. My mother was unhappy
...
She's also worried about continued conflict with my mother. I told her that I see why she feels that way. I gently suggested that it was a good thing she married me and not my mom...trying to balance some humor without invalidating how W feels.

An age-old problem. I think the W has to FEEL, not just know both sides of -
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife"
Of course, you can't MAKE someone feel...so...the dilemma. This last year my W expressed feelings that I always agreed/sided with my parents when some decision or other had to be made. A lot of that was only in her head. Informed by, yes, my approach to much of life was made by growing up under my parents of course. I did not ask or consult with my parents though. If fact, this year my parents expressed that they always felt I had joined W's family after marriage since I stopped talking to them about us.

I may have to swing over to the local brewery tonight to try out their new releases.

This has proven to be a great GAL for me. No/Low pressure enjoyable time. Sometimes talk with people. Sometimes kids join me for a bit as mine is family friendly. Games of Connect Four or Sorry with S12 and D17!

Be well, everyone. Keep plugging away ... working on YOURSELF most of all.

The work continues. In between fixing things!

g

[MrP]

Hey Grok. Lots of great stuff in your post. Thanks. It is great to know someone else out there has similar experiences. Love the religious quote too. John Gottman says when conflict erupts between the wife and mother-in-law, the only way out of this dilemma is for the husband to side with his wife.

A prior therapist told my W that "nobody has power over you unless you give it away". What you're saying about feelings resonates with me for that reason. It helped me think about how that, while we can't control every situation, we can control our reaction in response to it. And, I think that is also in alignment with what MWD preaches in Divorce Busting, Divorce Remedy, and an earlier book, Changer Your Life and Everyone In It. Much like you describe, I don't get the sense that my W or my mom are especially happy, though W acknowledges that she's not angry/upset with me. My mother is being quite immature about the situation and ignoring W now. We're a conversation away from estrangement if she can't maintain at least a respectful and productive relationship with W.

All that said, these experiences gave me a TON of energy. I've tackled some challenging work projects and issues. Our landscaping is looking like the finest in the neighborhood. Anyone need a room painted? I'm your guy!

And, during our last conversation, W told me that she asked her attorney to have the D dismissed so that we can focus on counseling. No guarantee we won't be discussing a D again. This is one of two possible outcomes from divorce-busting, and one MWD believes in. The work continues.

I know there were times early on when I came to this forum feeling quite helpless. Once more I say THANK YOU, to all those who've offered advice, moral support, and other perspectives. I hope I'm offering some of the same for others (being a lighthouse of sorts - right?).

[MrP]

Good afternoon DB community. I wanted to pop in, check on everyone to see if I might be able to offer some support, and confirm that our D has been dismissed. We continue to have positive interactions, are solving "light" problems together and head-on. I got the first card in a long time with a "Love" in the signature area. We've been on several mini-dates and feel a bit of the original spark we had when we originally began dating. I feel strongly that we found a solid counselor who has the skills to guide us both along better than past MCs. Still lots of piecing to be done to be sure. I continue to practice DBing where appropriate and not backsliding from these hard won gains. I'm hopeful that, for those of you with relationships that can be salvaged, my continued updates may help with strategies, motivation, and whatever else you may need to get through one day at a time. Take care, P.

[Ready2Change]

I continue to practice DBing where appropriate and not backsliding from these hard won gains.

Personal growth and improving the way you interact should continue from BD to the grave (at least that is my POV).

Glad things are looking positive.