Detaching & setting boundaries w/ clingy boomerang

[MamaG]

Hello everyone!

I was asked to start a new thread and so here I am. My last thread was in newcomers but I'm pretty confident that my H is going through MLC. For this reason, my next thread is listed under MLC forum.

Here is a link to my last thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=63684&Number=2950112#Post2950112


In summary, due to medical reasons and my reluctance to confront my fears, I have not been detaching as much as I should have been. From BD2 in Sept 2023 to mid-May 2024, H has taken me to medical appts and has been coming in and out of our marriage and marital home as will - H moved out in Dec 2023. I did the begging/pleading and such through Feb 2024 at which point I discovered this forum and learned about MLC. My behaviors towards H shifted a bit (less pursuing/no ILU/less touchy) in Feb and I began to let H lead our interactions with some nudging. H kept coming around and 'trying to figure himself out'. I allowed it.

For the last 5 weeks, I have not responded nor acknowledged H's texts unless a question is asked. I wait on my response. I provided minimal detail.

I had major surgery mid-May and rec'd 6 texts from H about my recovery between 5/22 and 6/7. I only provided responses like, "things are looking up" - very general but kind. On 6/4, I rec'd another text from H offering to complete a household chore to which I let H know that I had already asked someone to do it for me. On 6/7, to cut off the touch-n-goes (I suspect that is what H is doing), I responded with 'back to 100%'. Things went quiet for 9 days until I sent a Happy Father's Day text which he acknowledged. On 6/19, H sent a text with no questions and therefore I didn't acknowledge nor respond to. Today, I get a text that H needs to get some things from the house this weekend. I don't know what H wants to take but I definitely get triggered with H coming to take things from our marital home. I want to stop this behavior and as such have considered packing up H's closet for him to come and get. This of course is assuming that it's clothes H wants. (Personally I think H is coming to see how things are going over here.)

Since mid-May, I have not initiated any contact (except HFD text). 'm really trying to detach and go NC - for my own good. I'm struggling with what NC means and how to respond to H about his 'need' to come to the house for more things?

Please help me with a response as I've not been setting boundaries at all and this may be the first H gets from me in text. It is lengthy and I'm trying to not come across angry nor with ultimatums. I'd like to set a stage/boundary.

Draft to H's text that he wants to come to the house this weekend to grab things:

You chose to leave our home in December - it's been 6+ months and time for you to take all your personal belongings so that you aren't missing anything. For your convenience, I have packed it all up for you to grab. As for marital assets, I don't appreciate you treating our home like a shopping center. I have been logging marital belongings that you continue to move down the street to your chosen residence so that you can have the conveniences of our things in your new lifestyle and fantasy life.

I understand that this is hurting both of us, but you are able to change your feelings. You choose everything you think and do. Each of us is responsible for each of our own choices. Abandoning our house was your choice. Coming in and out of it is not tolerable as you would not appreciate me going to your residence for things.

I imagine you have a lot on your mind right now. I want to let you know that if you want to talk to me about whatever is on your mind, I'd be more than happy to listen to you.

[RegretfulLA]

I think your response is really strong and sets good boundaries. You have let him know your feelings and are telling him in no uncertain terms that moving out means moving out. This was his choice, now he must live with it.

I hope the DB'ing is getting a little easier for you. You have done a great job so far. All these stressful events seem to pile on top of each other (illness + MLC)... I sometimes think the Universe does that on purpose.

The hardest part of all this is getting to the place where you truly are zen about it - comfortable enough in your own skin to move on and not harbor any ill will. For me, that's the goal, but it's a long scary path.

I'm glad we have this site where we can help each other and provide encouragement.

[MamaG]

Thank you RegretfulLA for weighing in on my drafted text. With the weekend upon us before I had seen your response, I went with a safe & short response instead of chancing my 'unapproved' draft in my post.

Late morning, I responded to H with a question. I asked what H needed to come get so that I'd have it ready - this would ensure that H wouldn't come into the house to access anything else nor invade my privacy. Interestingly, rather than respond with needed items, H told me he would come tomorrow and would let me know (I assume he'd let me know when). In H's text, I can hear his need to control the situation and assuming that I'm sitting on a rocking chair waiting for him to come home. Yep, still in MLC.

Plot twist.... I quickly informed H that tomorrow doesn't work (and don't plan to lose sleep over it). It's been 39 days since we've seen each other (longest period of time EVER) and I'm remaining dedicated to not reaching out to him - DBing. I also felt it interesting that H didn't provide me with what he is looking to come get....something tells me it's another touch-n-go attempt. And, I'm getting better at calling BS on his attempts.

The good news is that depending upon how follow-up texts go this week (around stopping by), I may have the opportunity to send a like message to him. Anyone else have thoughts on the response and my attempt at a boundary for this clingy boomerang in my life?

H did push D this past week in an attempt to win her over - sent 3 texts, a request for a call and a quick call out to her in the span of 30 minutes. This is on the heals of going a week without reaching out at all. H wanted to know why D doesn't respond to his texts nor reach out to him. D contemplated whether to let H have it or just continue to ignore. In the end, D did a great job of informing H how he makes her feel, that she is in therapy and on meds due to the last 9 months (BD2). She told H that he doesn't share any believable info when he reaches out, that he hasn't made any progress and suggested that perhaps it is time to get into therapy. Of course, as expected, H had an agenda (touch-n-go? or Awakening?), ignored her request to go to therapy and asked her to stay in touch because H REACHES OUT WHEN HE'S HAVING A BAD DAY AND IS LOOKING FOR HER TO BRIGHTEN HIS DAY. Yep, still in MLC. I am proud of her and hope that both my kids, adults as they may be, make it through without too many bruises. Wish I could shelter them for this craziness.

[Valeska19]

M,
When it comes to responding to the WAS - less is more... so let's go ahead and delete that short story you plan on sending him.

From there - it's not about asking us what to do - it's about figuring out what YOU want and to communicate it to him. Here are some good questions to ask yourself.

1. Are you comfortable seeing your H in the house with you there? or how about at all?
2. Do you feel comfortable with H having access to everything in the home and having the free-will to take it?

Here are two hard truths.
One - anything your H "needs" - he could, in theory, buy. Unless its medication or perhaps something given down by his family... he doesn't really need anything from the house now. He can wait until mediation, divorce, reconciliation...etc.

The second is that most likely your H will have a negative response to what you say. This is okay and perfectly normal. You are putting yourself first. Change is hard and will make BOTH of you uncomfortable. Putting yourself gets easier the more you do it... so practice, practice, practice

Once you figure out what is best for YOU, you communicate it very politely, short, and direct. Think of a business deal. For example: If you don't want him in the house or going through everything - your response could be.

"H - Please send a list of what you need and I'll be happy to put in the garage and to schedule a time when you can come pick it up."

If he gets mad... so be it. If he guilt trips you... let it be water off a ducks back. Don't walk on eggshells around him. Understand that this is his choice so it comes with certain consequences. Your job is to make sure he's not protected from those consequences. Not out of anger, rather detachment. Not out of punishment, but out of love.

We all experience consequences... good and bad. It's how we learn and grow. It's how we determine what we want in life, what we need, and who we want to share with.

It's okay you let your H face the consequences of his actions.

[Ready2Change]

"H - Please send a list of what you need and I'll be happy to put in the garage and to schedule a time when you can come pick it up."

THIS!

Remove all of your emotional response when dealing with him. (Go ahead and feel it and express it away from him.)

Have you changed the locks?

[DnJ]

Hello MG

V is spot on.

I'm struggling with what NC means and how to respond to H about his 'need' to come to the house for more things?

Please help me with a response as I've not been setting boundaries at all and this may be the first H gets from me in text. It is lengthy and I'm trying to not come across angry nor with ultimatums. I'd like to set a stage/boundary.

I do agree with you, part of H’s need to come over is likely to see how things are going (or not going) without him.

Be detached in your “necessary” responses to H. Time and space. H moved out. Let him feel that.

Give V’s questions some good thought. Legally you might not be able to prevent H from coming over. Or maybe you can. Or maybe you can just be less welcoming.

Boundaries are for disrespectful behaviour. And the enforcement of the boundary is your premeditated action. For example, if H came over to get things. And then he starts yelling/swearing at you. The boundary is - do not swear at me. The rock solid enforcement is you leaving the room. Leaving him to his temper tantrum.

Late morning, I responded to H with a question. I asked what H needed to come get so that I'd have it ready - this would ensure that H wouldn't come into the house to access anything else nor invade my privacy.

Nicely done. I like the 180 flip on this. You agreed to him taking stuff. That likely set him back a bit, as I bet he didn’t figure you’d do that.

Interestingly, rather than respond with needed items, H told me he would come tomorrow and would let me know (I assume he'd let me know when). In H's text, I can hear his need to control the situation and assuming that I'm sitting on a rocking chair waiting for him to come home. Yep, still in MLC.

Plot twist.... I quickly informed H that tomorrow doesn't work (and don't plan to lose sleep over it).

Again, nicely done.

No eggshells.

It's been 39 days since we've seen each other (longest period of time EVER) and I'm remaining dedicated to not reaching out to him - DBing. I also felt it interesting that H didn't provide me with what he is looking to come get....something tells me it's another touch-n-go attempt. And, I'm getting better at calling BS on his attempts.

Yep. After all these months it unlikely H is looking to acquire anything that he needed.

The good news is that depending upon how follow-up texts go this week (around stopping by), I may have the opportunity to send a like message to him. Anyone else have thoughts on the response and my attempt at a boundary for this clingy boomerang in my life?

H moved out in December. Perhaps you don’t want his clothes in your closet anymore. Maybe you box up his stuff and store it in the garage. H can take the stuff or not.

You chose to leave our home in December - it's been 6+ months and time for you to take all your personal belongings so that you aren't missing anything. For your convenience, I have packed it all up for you to grab. As for marital assets, I don't appreciate you treating our home like a shopping center. I have been logging marital belongings that you continue to move down the street to your chosen residence so that you can have the conveniences of our things in your new lifestyle and fantasy life.

You don’t send this text. You merely do it.

If/when H comes by looking for his stuff, oh it’s out in the garage. Have it neatly packed and labelled to ensure timely pick up and less room for blaming and such.

As you said, you aren’t sitting in the rocking chair pinning away for him. I’d pack up and store his belongings.

D

[MamaG]

When it comes to responding to the WAS - less is more... so let's go ahead and delete that short story you plan on sending him.

I laughed out loud. TY for that. I let the better of my emotions come out, don't I? Shorter it is.

1. Are you comfortable seeing your H in the house with you there? or how about at all?
2. Do you feel comfortable with H having access to everything in the home and having the free-will to take it?

I know what I want - but I don't know what words to say it in...and clearly how much of a novel to say. lol

I have been comfortable with H stopping in if H only comes for the noted item, says hello and then is on his way. Unfortunately, lately, H's sneaky taking of other items has gotten old and while I've not said anything (acted as if I didn't notice), my D did and that's when I knew that it's something I need to address. And, to be honest, I'm tired of this being the reason to come over. H certainly 'checks things out' and gets a lay of the land. This is how it became obvious that this is H's cycle. Need something-stop in for it and check things out-temp check and leave for x amount of time. I'm no longer interested. So to answer your question, I don't want H coming by for items and using the house as his.....I don't stop at his for items.

Have you changed the locks?

Legally, the house is both of ours. Changing the locks isn't something I have done...and he still has garage door openers too. Thankfully, H always informs me in advance that he's coming. Haven't had an issue to date.

Please send a list of what you need and I'll be happy to put in the garage and to schedule a time when you can come pick it up.

DnJ, Ready2Change, Valeska19, as you all agree, I LOVE THIS and it'll be my response. I haven't packed up his closet but will be doing that. Sigh

Be detached in your “necessary” responses to H. Time and space. H moved out. Let him feel that.

Only respond if there's a question. Today, I rec'd a 'business' question from him in which I quickly responded with "No". He then responded with an explanation. No question=no response. Questions provide short answers many hours later. I'm trying...and it is so hard for me to do this. I do it on faith that this is the right approach. Still feel some eggshells, but I march on.

I know H is feeling it based on his persistent pursuing of D on Friday.

Boundaries are for disrespectful behaviour. And the enforcement of the boundary is your premeditated action. For example, if H came over to get things. And then he starts yelling/swearing at you. The boundary is - do not swear at me. The rock solid enforcement is you leaving the room. Leaving him to his temper tantrum.

I need a lot of practice with boundaries. I've NEVER set boundaries with H. This is a huge 180 for me. I realize this now. In theory, I know what one is but I don't have any idea how to enact. And, if I was to excuse the fact that H fired me as his wife, H doesn't monster or disrespect me. H merely is clingy and wants me on a rocking chair (love this analogy, can you tell?). I'm pretty convinced H wants to return home and has no idea how to go about it....well, if he can figure out how to pack boxes one way, he can figure out how to return home should he (and I) want him to.

I've been reading up a lot on dismissive avoidant behaviors...as well as fearful avoidant (likely my style) and trying to learn how to my adjustments on my end. I need to make some changes.....for me...and for clingy boomerang or someone else.

On a personal note, I did some hard work of clearing out pricker bushes, bittersweet weeds and other greenery along the property border over the last 2 weeks. It took hours - my gym pass, I suppose. Well, it felt good to have accomplished this (H would typically clear a bit each week to keep up with it)...until I woke up this morning to poison ivy rash all over my arms. Boy is it itchy and every time I look at my arms, I get angry at H. Even if it isn't H's fault, it is something he always took care of so he's being blamed and could've driven some of my not so nice emotions this weekend.

Also, D moved into her apartment near the university. After Friday's pursuing of the D, I assumed H would've made it a point to help her move today. Well, he didn't. Perhaps H forgot. D was a bit disappointed. Sigh

Thank you all for keeping me honest and emotionless in response. Now I build up the courage to pack H up (using the boxes emptied from D's move)!

[Valeska19]

I need a lot of practice with boundaries. I've NEVER set boundaries with H. This is a huge 180 for me. I realize this now. In theory, I know what one is but I don't have any idea how to enact. And, if I was to excuse the fact that H fired me as his wife, H doesn't monster or disrespect me. H merely is clingy and wants me on a rocking chair (love this analogy, can you tell?). I'm pretty convinced H wants to return home and has no idea how to go about it....well, if he can figure out how to pack boxes one way, he can figure out how to return home should he (and I) want him to.

I totally understand this. Boundaries are very difficult for me too. It started from childhood and something I have taken into my adulthood. Here are some things that have worked for me.

1. I allow the process of setting boundaries to be messy. It's new so you aren't going to say or do the "right" thing all the time. That's okay. The biggest win is that you realized what was important to you and you expressed it to the other person when they violated it. And let's say you are wrong. Maybe you allowed something that later you realize doesn't actually work for you. No problem - just go back and change it to what works. Don't allow perfection to get in the way. This is about LEARNING to care for yourself.

2. FACT - Boundaries to an emotionally immature person will p!ss them off, so don't be surprised when it does. Expect your H to escalate in childish behavior. Expect him to guilt trip you, remind you of what you did wrong... yet also prepare yourself for him to try and "nice" his way to get what he wants. Maybe tell you how great you are or how his feelings changed about a certain topic. It's very important that you don't get persuaded by his words. What's important is changed behavior.

For example: The statement above states that you are convinced your husband wants to come home? What makes you believe that? What are you seeing that demonstrates he wants to be a spouse to you versus wanting to come home because it's easier for him?

The answer to knowing the difference... setting boundaries. Someone who wants to do the work, will end up respecting your boundaries. Someone who wants his own way - will find a way to avoid respecting your boundaries.

3. Have a support system in place. Whether that's a boundary buddy that you can talk to, or core belief homework that you can journal to - you are going to need support to not only deal with your H's behavior... but yours as well. Contrary to belief - boundaries don't feel good at first when you set them. You are going to feel worse before you feel better. You are gonna experience the storm before the calm. This is a truth I wish self help books would be honest about. You were taught to not set boundaries because there was punishment attached. Now - you will have to tolerate someone trying to punish you when you set them... what a gut punch.

4. Keep grounded in reality. Your H chose this. Any consequences, hardships, feelings are due to his own making. When you start absorbing any of his stuff as "your fault" - try to detach from the situation. Look at yourself as a friend and say "What would I say to my friend in a time like this". Or "if this guy wasn't my H - would I put up with this treatment".

Do your best to not engage with your H. Your no response to his explanation email was perfect. Little things like that will build over time.

I know its hard to believe you are doing the right approach. Especially because sometimes the right thing can mean losing people in life. But keep at it. There will be a shift and you will know you are doing right approach... because it's the right approach for YOU and that approach will bring you peace.

Hang in there. You are making good progress!

[MamaG]

Valeska19 - hope you're doing well! It's a gut punch (several gut punches) to read your words and realize how you're right. You make sound points and make obvious observations. Love really is blind, isn't it?

For example: The statement above states that you are convinced your husband wants to come home? What makes you believe that? What are you seeing that demonstrates he wants to be a spouse to you versus wanting to come home because it's easier for him?

The answer to knowing the difference... setting boundaries. Someone who wants to do the work, will end up respecting your boundaries. Someone who wants his own way - will find a way to avoid respecting your boundaries.

It's easier to think that H wants to come home rather than it would be easier. Yet, as I reflect, I can see your point. H hasn't done much to show that he wants to come home or that he even thinks about me much. Other than the empty texts, I get nothing. What hurts the most is how H has been no more than an uber driver for my medical appts. If anything, H's action show that he doesn't care nor wants to come home. I guess it's more a feeling based on how H looks at me and is kind in the few moments we have...maybe I'm just seeing/hearing what I want to see/hear. Ugh - another gut punch.

Question...based on his cycling history, H will reach back out for some item that he needs. I'll respond with, "Please send a list of what you need and I'll be happy to put in the garage and to schedule a time when you can come pick it up." At which point, we'll set up a time/date for H to come to grab things and he'll face the pile I've packed up.

If H doesn't take his belongings, do I continue to store them, do I drop them off to him, bring them to a storage unit & give him a key? What do I do with packed belongings that he'll likely not take with him? I imagine that he'll be emotionally driven to 'escape and avoid' without his belongings. And, it'll feel like he's losing control?

[MamaG]

You've all been so helpful with my first boundary...waiting on his text to come by this week so that I can set the very 1st one! Sad and excited. ugh

Separately, I'm looking to set a 'business' boundary and would love your insight....you seem to have better (and shorter) ways to message H.

In summary, H doesn't fund our joint marital acct which is near depleted. Verbally, H agreed to fund acct with weekly payments of X and we agreed to not touch our other funds bc funding with X would keep us fully allocated for the year. I REALLY don't want him to suggest that we start tapping the nest egg with my drafted message. I want to be certain that the message I send is in writing, informs him of our finances and requests confirmation that H will or will not fund the acct for further expenses. Note, H is able to access the acct to see all transactions...even though he can't be bothered to do so....perhaps my message should note this....

Marriages in my state can be filed as Fault or No-fault. I'm not saying that I'm looking to file but if it comes to a filing, I need evidence/documentation.

Here's my draft and open to your thoughts. Keep in mind that I've really turned the tables on him in a short 6 weeks - not reaching out to him, short and uninformative responses, declined offers to 'fix' things at house, been less reachable. It's a short window in which I'm applying numerous 180s (hope I'm not being impulsive nor destructive like I accuse him of doing in Sept).

Please let me know your thoughts on this message:

As you know, you have not contributed to our acct to support marital expenses since Feb 2024.

In March, I asked you why you stopped funding our acct for marital expenses and you told me that you didn't know how to send money to two different banks. At the time, you agreed that you'd look into reinstating weekly payments to our acct. To date, you have not.

I later informed you in May that I forecasted our acct would no longer support our expenses after July.

Do you plan to reinstate contributions to our acct in order to fund household and family expenses? As you know, RE taxes are coming due as well as D's college tuition - both of which are large expenses that our account cannot support.

[RegretfulLA]

From a "cya"/legal perspective I think what you have to say is very important and you should put it in writing. If you ever do get D, it's important to have this kind of evidence.

From a DB perspective, I have to defer to the jedi masters who are not so emotionally tangled up right now.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

You are on two paths. An emotional healing path, and a business path. The bulk of your time and efforts will be on your healing and wellbeing. Of course, business stuff does come up, and when it does, deal with it in a businesslike manner.

Your present situation is H not contributing $x weekly to joint account as he stated he’d do. And therefore the account is almost depleted. My views/suggestions on how to deal with this.

Verbally, H agreed to fund acct with weekly payments of X and we agreed to not touch our other funds bc funding with X would keep us fully allocated for the year. I REALLY don't want him to suggest that we start tapping the nest egg with my drafted message. I want to be certain that the message I send is in writing, informs him of our finances and requests confirmation that H will or will not fund the acct for further expenses.

- I’d not bring up tapping the nest egg or anything else you don’t want. No point putting ideas in his head.

- Definitely needs to be dealt with in writing.

- Why are you asking if H will or will not fund? Is this optional? H stated he’d deposit $x weekly and isn’t! How are you going to support yourself? Manage the household and kids’ expenses?

On to your draft letter (Which I’d not send. More below. It is pretty good. You kept it in the business realm.)

As you know, you have not contributed to our acct to support marital expenses since Feb 2024.

In March, I asked you why you stopped funding our acct for marital expenses and you told me that you didn't know how to send money to two different banks. At the time, you agreed that you'd look into reinstating weekly payments to our acct. To date, you have not.

I later informed you in May that I forecasted our acct would no longer support our expenses after July.

Do you plan to reinstate contributions to our acct in order to fund household and family expenses? As you know, RE taxes are coming due as well as D's college tuition - both of which are large expenses that our account cannot support.

- Do not tell H what he should or should not know.

- Have a copy/proof of past agreed terms and conversations.

- Be businesslike. Present the facts. Illustrate the shortcomings. Polity demand (not ask for) restitution and compliance with the agreed terms.


So what to do.

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet? If not, do so. If yes, use your lawyer.

MLCers are masters of manipulation. Folks in crisis will utilize the legal system to their advantage. It is common for “gentleman agreements” to go into arrears.

These desperate people do desperate things. They also have the attention span of a gnat. Depression really does remove one’s caring about accountability and responsibility.

A lawyer will provide information about your rights and your options. Also going through a lawyer with these agreements provides a paper trail, and not the he said / she said problems that are all to common.

You are first and foremost in all this. You are the most important person in this equation. For if not, what about kids, house, college, etc.? H is running with the unicorns and fairies. You are the one left holding the bag. And yes, it is not fair!

My advice is to leave the heavy lifting to the spouse who wants out. However, if/when you need financial security or protection - get it! That is paramount.

As H is not honouring his agreement, seek legal counsel. Get a legally enforceable agreement in place. Have your L send H a letter and follow up with legal recourse if necessary.


Boundaries / enforcement. In this situation, the time for enforcement was back in March. As soon as H did not follow through. Hold him accountable. Do not walk on eggshells. Do not let him walk all over you.

As you can likely see, businesslike. No emotions. Just identify and resolve. Logic and reason are your tools. Remain businesslike while on the business path.

This does not negate your healing path, nor DBing. In fact, part of DBing is dealing with the financial stuff. Keep moving forward MG.

D

[Valeska19]

If H doesn't take his belongings, do I continue to store them, do I drop them off to him, bring them to a storage unit & give him a key? What do I do with packed belongings that he'll likely not take with him? I imagine that he'll be emotionally driven to 'escape and avoid' without his belongings. And, it'll feel like he's losing control?

I would not put it in a storage unit and give him the key. Outside of that - it's up to YOU to think about what makes experience less suffering for YOU.

Your job IS NOT to worry about what he wants versus what he doesn't want. It needs to just be put into 1 category "his stuff". Let him worry about what he wants to keep or not. Stop trying to figure him out or how he respond. It's a cheeseless tunnel.

Practically speaking - If you need pack up his items in steps - that's okay. For me - when I was angry, I used it to pack up stuff or down the road - toss stuff. Emotions are strong so if I was crying, I was ruminating about the past versus living in the present. I was giving so much power to the "stuff"... but when you can detach a little bit you realize it's just physical items - the memories will always be there.

You still seemed a little too worry about how your H will respond to your taking care of yourself. I sense your hesitation to take these next steps.

It makes sense. Whether we are getting legal advice, moving out our partner's stuff, settlng boundaries.. all of these things knock down the denial of the situation. Each step makes it a little bit more real... which is painful!

However as I mentioned before... we have to look at reality. Currently your H is gone and only interested in his needs and wants. You have two choices. You can put your head in the sand and let him call the shots... financially, emotionally etc. Or you can take control of your part of the equation.

There is no way to avoid the situation (which is awful). No way to avoid the pain. However how long and how much you choose to suffer... that's entirely within your control.

[MamaG]

Selfish is clearly not my middle name. Thanks for the reminders to do right by me. Hope this gets easier.

I reached out to L today. Due to the holiday this week, I won't be able to talk with L until next week.

H reached out this morning and requested that we talk in response to an email from D about college pymt coming due. D took the bull by its horns despite me recommending that I handle it. For her own health, I let D know that if H doesn't make good on the payment that I would fund it so she didn't get any more anxiety and lose sleep. Be honest with me, am I compromising D and/or D and H relationship by her being involved?

And, in response to H's request to talk, I asked H what he wanted to talk about (a small part of me hoping that H wanted to talk about our R even if I had to be ready to just listen). It took H all day to respond....in which he sent me D's text. No question nor request for conversation. I wasn't completely sure how to respond or whether to respond at all, as I knew that my longer 'cya' text will likely be sent with L's input.

I ended up responding with a confirmation that I rec'd a similar message from D and I that I would pay my half of the fall semester to her. Short and factual. I didn't inquire about what H is doing or how H will fund.

Needless to say, I don't expect to receive a response nor request for conversation from H any time soon. Maybe H figures out that there will also be an invoice coming for the spring semester in a short stint. Either way, I'm glad that I'm nowhere near his emotional self tonight. Consequences must be felt.

DnJ, glad you found that the drafted boundary lacked emotion. Trying to apply readings and input!

My advice is to leave the heavy lifting to the spouse who wants out. However, if/when you need financial security or protection - get it! That is paramount.

As H is not honouring his agreement, seek legal counsel. Get a legally enforceable agreement in place. Have your L send H a letter and follow up with legal recourse if necessary.


Boundaries / enforcement. In this situation, the time for enforcement was back in March. As soon as H did not follow through. Hold him accountable. Do not walk on eggshells. Do not let him walk all over you.

As you can likely see, businesslike. No emotions. Just identify and resolve. Logic and reason are your tools. Remain businesslike while on the business path.

What do you mean by the sentence about leaving heavy lifting to H?

Definitely did a poor job of enforcing in May and an even worse job in October as I don't have the handshake documented at all. Other than a verbal commitment, I do have bank stmts that support the activity.

It makes sense. Whether we are getting legal advice, moving out our partner's stuff, setting boundaries.. all of these things knock down the denial of the situation. Each step makes it a little bit more real... which is painful!

Yup. Couldn't agree more. And, I can feel myself getting closer to acceptance or should I say clearing denial. I've let go quite a bit in the last few weeks. Albeit, kicking and screaming, while taking control of my own feelings. I've been dragged for far too long. It's getting easier to muddle through and saddening all at the same time. Yes, I still wonder what H's thoughts, reactions, feelings are in response to my numerous 180s. BUT, I don't wonder and get worried as much. I wonder more out of curiosity. What could H think of all this limited reaction he's getting from me? I've taken little to no interest in H....which is why for a minute, I wondered if H would be asking to talk about R. It was a stretch but I'm OK with it not happening (didn't expect it).

Happy 4th!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Please don’t tangle/confuse selfish with self care. It’s ok to look after you too! (((Hugs))) And yes, it gets easier.

H reached out this morning and requested that we talk in response to an email from D about college pymt coming due. D took the bull by its horns despite me recommending that I handle it. For her own health, I let D know that if H doesn't make good on the payment that I would fund it so she didn't get any more anxiety and lose sleep. Be honest with me, am I compromising D and/or D and H relationship by her being involved?

You are doing fine. I agree letting daughter know she is ok for tuition, and that you’ll cover Dad’s portion if necessary.

The ideal is “this problem is between Dad and I, and not about you two kids”. Unfortunately, crisis folks are so consumed and running that kids, especially adult kids, the relationship between them and their parent gets strained. Missed appointments, birthdays, graduations, convocations, fighting about and at weddings and socials, threats, trying to force the other man/woman into the kids’ lives, not keeping their financial obligations, and so on.

Mlcers blow up their life and cause a heck of a lot of collateral damage. Sadly, they continue along their destructive path and mow down anyone and anything that gets in their way or doesn’t go along with their narrative. It’s surprising how quickly nonconforming kids, family, and friends are tossed aside.

D and H’s relationship is theirs. If they do not find a way, then there will be no way. It’s not for you to facilitate it or mend it, just not to destroy it.

I ended up responding with a confirmation that I rec'd a similar message from D and I that I would pay my half of the fall semester to her. Short and factual. I didn't inquire about what H is doing or how H will fund.

Perfect!

What do you mean by the sentence about leaving heavy lifting to H?

Heavy lifting refers specifically to formal seperation/divorce proceedings/agreements/arrangements.

Most LBS feel against seeing a lawyer. It’s pretty standard that we don’t want to push for a divorce; one of the reason we likely found this place.

So, advice is to seek legal counsel - just for information. To learn one’s rights, obligations, likely outcome, worst/best outcomes, processes/procedures if/when things turn, etc. Knowledge is power. And being fore warned or fore knowing is to be fore armed.

It’s about learning, and of course rationalizing, which helps with detaching. Just gathering information while leaving the heavy-lifting to the spouse who wants out.

However, and this is a big however, if (when?) one needs financial protection or security - get it!

I’ve seen many people go too long to their financial detriment. There is a business side of this mess we didn’t want to be dragged in to.

Your low energy wallower is likely to continue wallowing in his pit of misery. Confusion and depression twisting him about. He’ll flake on his obligations. Maybe even purposefully.

How high is the risk of H dipping in to nest egg accounts and going on some spending spree? Likely low. Yet, some do. There are situations where funds are just gone! Frittered away. On all kinds of stuff in their futile effort to feel younger/better. Cars, motorcycles, drink, drugs, clothes, trips, illegal/illicit behaviours, and so on. Do keep tabs on your accounts and be fore-armed to know what you can legally do, quickly do, if things turn sideways.

My XW was/is a high energy vanisher. There was no mistaking, she was on a rampage. She pushed for a seperation. She even demanded she get charged with adultery (although in the revised agreement I had my lawyer remove that clause, and XW didn’t notice. Boy was she mad.) We were separated/divorced in 60 days! And she had surgery during that time. Which she didn’t listen to the doctor’s recovery instructions and had to have another three weeks of rest. She pushed her seperation agreement and got it done. Against her own lawyer’s advice. He made her see two financial planner and a psychiatrist. He even had her sign a waiver that stated she was going against his legal advice.

Regardless of type, low or high energy, clinger or vanisher, the overall crisis is slow. Very very slow! Any type may push/force a divorce or drag their feet. As the LBS, we just don’t put boulders in their path, yet not pave it in gold either. Leave the heavy lifting to them.

In my case, XW definitely was all over the heavy lifting. In your case, I can see H dragging his feet. Lots do that.

So, the financial part. Do you, your kids, require financial security? From my vantage, yes. (I’m figuring H is the major breadwinner and neither of you are millionaires.) In mere weeks that joint account will be depleted. H is not keeping his “I promise to do” obligations. Again, lots do that. You require a court order and a court enforceable agreement in place.

It depends on your locale how far along the seperation/divorce road such an agreement has to go. Some jurisdictions don’t have legal separation only divorce, and others do. Some can have financial deals without any formal martial status alterations, other places won’t. It gets messy with joint ownership and assets. A lawyer knows what is and isn’t allowed, and what is usually best for you. After all, they are not emotionally invested, rationally looking at the facts - money and custody, and have expert knowledge of the legal system you are within.

Hope that makes sense. Leave whatever heavy lifting you can to H, yet get your financial security.

Definitely did a poor job of enforcing in May and an even worse job in October as I don't have the handshake documented at all. Other than a verbal commitment, I do have bank stmts that support the activity.

It’s fine. Make it better going forward.

Take your statements with you to the lawyer, along with a list of questions you have. (Maybe a few starting ones: Can I move half of the funds from joint accounts to my own accounts? Am I liable for debts H incurs going forward if we don’t change martial status? Can I change the locks? Is H considered to have moved out and not living here? Tax implications as well. Not his primary address?) Write them down by the way. We forget those questions once we are seated across from the L and information starts pouring in.

Yes, I still wonder what H's thoughts, reactions, feelings are in response to my numerous 180s.

Perfectly normal to wonder.

MLCers do watch. However, H is on his wild ride, and on his timeline. It moves glacially slow and has little to nothing to do with you.

Just ensure your 180s are for you. That way, those changes will become permanent. MamaG2.0. Best version of you!

D

[MamaG]

I read thru this thread today as a result of yesterday's reach out from H. I don't love how we interacted nor the little that was exchanged. Yet, the little exchanged may have been a 180 that I didn't even prepare for.

H texted early in the morning yesterday to tell me that H needs to stop and get some things and provided a specific time that he'd come last night. I responded with what do you need, much like I asked when he sent a like text on 6/28. Yesterday, H responded and said some clothes and tools. And ended text with "Why?"

I informed him that we don't have duplicates of tools and that I've found myself replacing items that he's taken. Six hours later, I get a 'on my way' text.

I freaked out - wasn't home because I was leaving doctor's office for the poison ivy reaction.

M: NO, I'm not home. Today is not a good night.

H: I need some clothes and that's all I'll grab. Is that ok

I didn't respond to H and had my ride bring me home rather than getting prescription filled. We pulled in at the same time. H drove into driveway and parked in garage. As I walked up, H was grabbing an empty duffle bag from the back seat and looked back at me.

M: I told you tonight wasn't a good night. (I had an emotionless face and felt nothing but anxiety, but couldn't help but notice that H was all dressed up and yanked his bucket hat from his head in the driveway. That was odd as I don't know why the bucket hat couldn't be seen. I digress.)

H: What happened, H asked? (H was looking at my arms that had been fully wrapped by the doctor and definitely left the impression of something much more serious than poison ivy. H's face was that of concern and appeared to be fighting back tears.)

M: I'm ok. What do you need to grab?

H: What happened?

M: Nothing. I'm ok.

H maintained his concerned and surprised look. H held back emotions and calmly got in his vehicle and left. Normally, I'd challenge H to stay and not leave the discussion (dismissive avoidant/anxious avoidant relationship). Yesterday, I backed out of the garage, walked towards the backyard and physically turned my back to H until he was out of the driveway. I then walked into the house and locked up. While I was less welcoming than I've been in the past, I wish I hadn't given him my physical back as H pulled away. I wasn't crying nor thinking about crying but suspect H may wonder if I was.

If/when H comes by looking for his stuff, oh it’s out in the garage. Have it neatly packed and labelled to ensure timely pick up and less room for blaming and such.

If/when H comes by looking for his stuff, oh it’s out in the garage. Have it neatly packed and labelled to ensure timely pick up and less room for blaming and such.

I never told H that I've packed much of his stuff and have it in a spot for him to take. And, H never made it inside to see the pile. Other than behaving like children with repeated exchanges, we didn't say much in words. H rec'd an emotionless version of me and saw that I didn't reach out to him for medical support as I had in the past.

Do I reach out to H today? Do I say anything to H? Or do I wait for the next time H needs to come by and get stuff to let him see/know about his belongings being packed?

As for the poison ivy, I was prescribed an incorrect dosage of meds and as a result, I'm not seeing improvements. Doc felt that the blisters could be fully covered so that I was more comfortable and not having them burst everywhere. For this reason, both arms were fully wrapped in an Ace bandage from elbow to wrist. Imagine what H must think happened?

As for my behavior with H, I froze and we had a less than great interaction. I realize how we have both become distant from each other. No comfort to express ourselves. Altho, it's true that H wasn't ever great at sharing, I feel like I adopted his avoidance yesterday and wasn't proud. I wish I was more cheery and approachable than I was. I'm not sure I left him with any desire to come home yesterday.

Contrary to belief - boundaries don't feel good at first when you set them. You are going to feel worse before you feel better. You are gonna experience the storm before the calm. This is a truth I wish self help books would be honest about. You were taught to not set boundaries because there was punishment attached.

The ideal is “this problem is between Dad and I, and not about you two kids”. Unfortunately, crisis folks are so consumed and running that kids, especially adult kids, the relationship between them and their parent gets strained.

Because this is a problem between H and I, do I reach out to resolve? Basically ensure he'll fund his half? Or do I leave it alone? I don't think he'll fund it to D and if she shouldn't do the following up....what do I do or say?

So, the financial part. Do you, your kids, require financial security? From my vantage, yes. (I’m figuring H is the major breadwinner and neither of you are millionaires.) In mere weeks that joint account will be depleted. H is not keeping his “I promise to do” obligations. Again, lots do that. You require a court order and a court enforceable agreement in place.

I want financial security around the nest egg. I've been the bread winner all along. H provides in many other ways and I believe that H never felt that his contributions were equitable. We would openly talk about how each of us contributed and had no issues with it. Perhaps, H had an issue with having a lower income.

Take your statements with you to the lawyer, along with a list of questions you have. (Maybe a few starting ones: Can I move half of the funds from joint accounts to my own accounts? Am I liable for debts H incurs going forward if we don’t change martial status? Can I change the locks? Is H considered to have moved out and not living here? Tax implications as well. Not his primary address?) Write them down by the way. We forget those questions once we are seated across from the L and information starts pouring in.

Great questions! This was super helpful.

On the boundaries front, I've learned that they are for me. And, I've learned that setting them doesn't feel right nor good. I can attest to this.

I feel as though yesterday's activities were divine intervention - I couldn't have planned for the doc to wrap my arms and pull into the driveway at the very same time. Wish I knew God's plan and timing.

I can't help but believe that H wants to talk but doesn't feel comfortable telling me things nor knows what/how to express thoughts/emotions; wants to figure our R out but doesn't know where I stand and is afraid. I can't kick this feeling. Is it still recommended that I remain NC and wait for H to approach me?

As many have shared on this board, I fear that my actions and words tell H that he doesn't stand a chance anymore so don't bother trying. H is so fragile and afraid (avoidant) that I don't want to risk pushing him away if he is looking to actually talk and assess our situation. I still don't know what H is thinking nor where he stands and it is so hard to get through some day.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

You did fine on the exchange with H. You stated that that night was not a good time; you stated that him taking tools is not preferred as you then have to go and purchase replacement ones. It’s up to H whether he listens or not. You cannot control his actions.

Because this is a problem between H and I, do I reach out to resolve? Basically ensure he'll fund his half? Or do I leave it alone? I don't think he'll fund it to D and if she shouldn't do the following up....what do I do or say?

You are between a rock and a hard place. Like with the tools, or anything really, H will do as he will. You cannot make him. As such, it’s what do you, or perhaps what should you do?

Focus on you and the kids.

Give plenty of time and space to dear old confused H.

Take actions based upon your sincere, logically and rationally based, best path forward. Counterintuitive as it may be.

Have you spoken to your L yet? Knowledge is power. You will know which options you can and cannot legally move forward with. You will be better informed to make the difficult/best decision(s). By the way, that best (for the moment) decision may be to let things lay on the financial front and simply pack up H’s belonging and replace the few tools he acquires.

“Problem between you and H” reinforces to keep the kids out of it. Whatever is going on - minimize further harm as best you can. And to be clear, there will be further damages, collateral and otherwise, from H and his behaviours. Note further damages does not necessitate further harms. Minimizing further harm is best served by not trying to be a shield, rather being a role model and illustrating how to be strong and secure and basically know thy self. To be able to see through the manipulation and gaslighting and projections. To not fret over them.

“Do I reach out to resolve?” Yes. Although, not to H. And likely not in the manner you are considering. Be clear with H, as you were regarding house, items, coming over, etc. For required financial protection and security, you reach out to L. Be business-like when dealing with business stuff.

As for D’s tuition, and keeping the problem between you and H. If H doesn’t pay his half - you pay. Ensure whatever parental portion of D’s fees/tuition are planned on being paid, get paid. You then deal with H later. (If you choose to. It may be in your best interest to let his portion go.)

I want financial security around the nest egg. I've been the bread winner all along. H provides in many other ways and I believe that H never felt that his contributions were equitable. We would openly talk about how each of us contributed and had no issues with it. Perhaps, H had an issue with having a lower income.

Perhaps H does feel inadequate or some such regarding his portion of the joint income. It’s not the root cause for what’s currently going on. Merely another symptom, a distraction, a justification, something for H to point at so as to not look inward.

As breadwinner over the years, you would feel the financial brunt of a split. Get informed, gather info, and decide your best path forward. It may very well be to remain as you are, while being prepared to act if things suddenly take a sharp turn.

I still don't know what H is thinking nor where he stands and it is so hard to get through some day.

Yep. H doesn’t know what he is thinking, or wants. So how can you? Remember, he is driven by his ever changing emotions.

H is so fragile and afraid (avoidant) that I don't want to risk pushing him away if he is looking to actually talk and assess our situation.

Yes, H is broken. Is fragile. Is afraid. Is avoidant. Skirts responsibility, accountability, and so on.

The biggest pushing away you can do, is pressure.

Don’t fret. If/when H truly wants to talk about your situation, he will! And you will know!

I fear that my actions and words tell H that he doesn't stand a chance anymore so don't bother trying.

Let go that fear. (((Hugs)))

Act with sincerity. Act with love and compassion. Act with purpose.

When you walk in light, are sincere in your life, your intentions will shine through. H has a chance, and you are not a doormat.

Fear not. Sincerely standing, boundaries, focusing on you, GAL, etc., are very attractive. Do it for you. H may or may not figure his stuff out. H may or may not heal and grow. Regardless, you keep moving forward and allow H run to catch up, if he so chooses.


I do empathize MG. Grief, bargaining, withdrawal, lead to some pretty wild emotions and thoughts. Stay strong. Stick to the path. You got this.

D

[Valeska19]

Don't reach out to him to resolve anything MG. Remember what I said about boundaries feeling "wrong" when you aren't used to setting them and sticking to them? That's what happening here.

You did a fine job communicating with you H. Whatever emotion he has is on him. He made his bed, now he has to lie in it. That's not cruel... just a natural consequence to actions. NO MATTER WHAT HE SAYS OR DOES.

Continue to work on tolerating that "wrong" feeling. It will get easier!

[MamaG]

Fear is still very real over here - step 1 is admitting it....and now to resolve it.

I've packed most of H's closet and it amounts to his truck's load. There is more stuff but I need boxes. I can figure this part out.

Here comes my need for help. H text today saying he's hoping to come by one day this week after work to grab clothes. I haven't responded to him just yet. I am inclined to inform him via text that 'To help him, I packed up his personal belongings for him.' in advance of (rather than then at arrival of) H coming and learning that I packed his stuff up. I recognize my desire to tell him via text comes from fear and I can feel my anxiety building just thinking about how he may react if he isn't aware prior to coming to the house.

If you feel that it's wiser/better/kinder/more personal to inform him in person, can I ask you to give me words to share my 'packing his stuff' news with him? How do I tell him that I packed up his belongings?

Also, H doesn't know about poison ivy and his last sighting of me was with my arms all wrapped up. When H comes this week, do I wear a long sleeve shirt to hide the healing but blemished arms? If H asks, do I share with him what was/is wrong? Is this a time to be mysterious?


As an observation, H generally avoids coming to the house on weekends. And, as a second observation, H tends to text on Mondays...after the weekend.

H has mentioned that he works on Sat and then does nothing on Sun. Strange? Common for MLCer? Avoiding 'time' to be around longer than a weeknight after work?

On a personal note, I had a couple proud moments - I learned to fix many a things around this house. Picked up a few things at a box store and fixed the sprinklers which were watering the street unnecessarily & fixed the running toilet. I'm still working on getting air out of the water pipes but haven't given up. Really miss my handy man but I'm stepping in and stepping up. D was so proud of me when I shared these accomplishments with her. We laughed.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Congrats on fixing the toilet and getting the sprinklers working properly. It does take some time running water to purge the air out of the pipes.

A tip for you: When you bleed down a water line, completed whatever repair or install was required, and restored the water pressure, go around and remove the aerator on every faucet. Clean/wash off the aerator and run water to flush out the line (as well as purge the air). Do put the stopper in as sometimes the rubber gasket for the aerator unknowingly remains on the tap. The flowing water blasts it loose and the gasket goes down the drain. It’s also neat to see just how much debris is filled out.

With the water turned off, bits of scale, rust, and whatnot that is stuck to the insides of the pipes comes loose. When pressure is restored and with water flowing down stream, the junk will accumulate in the aerators. It can sometimes be so bad that a faucet will plug right up and not work at all. The washing machine inlet lines may require their filters cleaned as well, depending on where their lines are hooked up to the main supply and how much of the water system was pressured down. Those filters are just a mesh screen right at the hose connection. Turn off the valve, remove the hose, flush it into a pail, clean the screen, and reassemble.

The dishwasher can plug up too. However, flushing the kitchen sink tap usually prevents accumulation of debris in the dishwasher inlet. Cleaning/flushing the dishwasher is a more involved job (stuff to take apart), and only done when needed.

If you feel that it's wiser/better/kinder/more personal to inform him in person, can I ask you to give me words to share my 'packing his stuff' news with him? How do I tell him that I packed up his belongings?

I understand your fear regarding what H’s reaction might be. Ah, fear. It’s about something that hasn’t even happened yet, and might not.

I’d just reply to his text without the “to help him” preamble. Just stick to the facts and be short and direct. The “to help him” wording is fear based. It’s you trying to soften the blow so he won’t get upset.

Just text him something like:

H (text): I’m hoping to come by one day this week after work to grab clothes.

MG (text): Perfect! Your stuff is boxed up and in the garage.

(Or basement, or wherever you have it piled up.)

Also, H doesn't know about poison ivy and his last sighting of me was with my arms all wrapped up. When H comes this week, do I wear a long sleeve shirt to hide the healing but blemished arms? If H asks, do I share with him what was/is wrong? Is this a time to be mysterious?

Be out. Don’t even be there. That’d be mighty mysterious.

Be arm-deep in some repair. Too busy for chit chat with him. He can gather his stuff and go.

Time and space. Letting him feel what he is loosing.

Besides, you’re detached, focused on your life, and a got lots to do, and lots you want to do.

As an observation, H generally avoids coming to the house on weekends. And, as a second observation, H tends to text on Mondays...after the weekend.

H has mentioned that he works on Sat and then does nothing on Sun. Strange? Common for MLCer? Avoiding 'time' to be around longer than a weeknight after work?

Some do tend to find a manner of routine, and others are all over the map. There was a poster whose MLCer called on Fridays from work after 5:00 pm closing. Others only on weekends, others only on weekdays, and others whenever they “feel” they need to. For the latter group, the LBS, to keep their sanity, usually needs to promote a routine of returning correspondence on only a certain day. Something like, read all the texts and listen to the various voice mails. Reply to the necessary stuff by email (it is best to figure out one, and only one, method of communication for the really clinging type) one day a week. Maybe Wednesday evenings, so it doesn’t detract from your weekend plans and activities.

You H is not latched on that hard. His texting and reaching out sounds like it is contained to Mondays, and not every Monday. Remember, these folks are confused and teenager-like. They have a cauldron of rebelling, lashing out, moving out, and yet hanging on. Just like kids do when they leave the nest.

I do believe it is common for MLCers to minimize their time around us and their old life. A weekday after work is easier to make up an excuse to leave or plan a short visit than an open weekend.

H’s do nothing Sunday is also common. Not so much being Sunday, as just a down day to brood and wallow. It’s the stuff of those not burning their candle at both ends - the high energy types.

My vanisher XW hasn’t spoken to me for years. She does reach out to the kids - somewhat. Her schedule is a couple of months. XW reaches a point when she feels she needs to hear their voice, and she starts texting or calling. She cycles between texts and calls on a yearly timeframe. Presently she at the apex of reaching out and it is by actual phone calls.

The kids, well let’s stick with the youngest for one. He has over the last week received 40 calls from Mom. Son is well aware of how Mom is, and how she is just getting her fix. She never shares anything about her life (with any of the kids) and once she gets her visit in, she goes silent-running again for a while.

Son is busy with his Master Thesis and doesn’t have time for her drama. As such, son has ignored her calls.

Son took a few days off and was out visiting me, which XW knew about. (oh, MLCers still keeps tabs on their old life and going ons with LBS and tossed away kids.) She called three times one morning and then texted son, begging him to call her. Son responded to her text, asking if anything was wrong. Mom said, no, I just want to hear your voice. It’s like a starring contest with her.

The last time XW/Mom “needed” to “just hear your voice” was her birthday. And yes, it was exactly that - to just hear his voice. After days and days of her hounding him, son called her. She was too busy right then and would call him back. Nine hours later Mom got back to son, heard him say two sentences and then told him she was busy and hung up. Then nothing until the week ago calls started up again.

She’s really lost.

Son understands. And he basically doesn’t invest into her BS. Our situation is going on seven years now. Mom is just using him and his siblings. No sharing of her life. (She still has not mentioned her new riding mower to any of them. And mowing grass is her main source of income and vocation.) Like an addict, she gets her fix, they runs. Once it wears off, she desperately reaches back for another quick - not too personal, not too motherly, not too anything - hit. Sad really.

Keep moving forward you handy-woman. Good for you. And you should be proud. Excellent role model for daughter.

D

[MamaG]

DnJ - thanks for the great advice on the water pipes. I ordered some parts to get the screen off the faucets - they don't just pop off. I'll be looking for settlement or otherwise as I continue trying. This weekend I'd like to get some power washing done. The power washer has been temperamental so it'll be a bit before I can get it to start. Crossing my fingers.

So, I'm sensing a shift and while I'd like to celebrate, I'm trying to contain myself. When I say 'celebrate', I'm celebrating a potential small win. I've read on here somewhere that progress is measured by movement through the tunnel. For this reason, I feel like there may be an oppty to celebrate. Time will tell.

As part of my concerted effort to detach in the first couple days of May, I haven't reached out to H for anything. I'm not initiating contact nor making requests of him....not even things that pertain to the house or kids. H did take me to a mid-May appt as he offered and I accepted. Still, that was 2 months ago.

I've been GALing, fixing stuff around the house, took a vaca, all while healing from surgery....and, minding my own business. Some good days; more not so good days, but I'm trying. One day at a time.

H and I haven't shared moments, work, lives, dilemmas, anything. H has reached out here and there to see how I'm recovering and he has been trying to come here for stuff over the last month....I've been unengaging and pushing him off, almost dismissive. As you know, H came here on 7/8 for a quick 5 minutes. I didn't welcome him and he saw that my arms weren't doing well despite no call to him for help. I guess that was too much emotion and he left. Well, I'm not putting pressure on this guy. Nope, not me.

DnJ, I responded as you suggested to his request to come get clothes this week...'I boxed up your personal belongings....let's plan for Th night.' I got a quick 'sounds good' response. I could hear the reality behind the positive remark - I know that he wasn't good with his stuff getting packaged and put in a basement - and knew right away that he was feeling my distancing and 180. Perhaps, feeling my loss and his consequences.

Later that day, to confirm that my text hit him like a ton of bricks, I learned that he reached out to D with a 'woe is me' text. H said something about having broken down mentally a few times that day for the first time in weeks. It was a tough day but he's home and safe. What is D supposed to do with that? rhetorical.... I actually don't think she responded at all. (I know that I can't control the relationship between D and H.)

Thursday morning comes and I get a lengthy and detailed text from H that starts with "Good morning". Wow, Good morning? This is a surprise, a change.

H isn't sure if today is going to work bc he doesn't feel well. H provides me all sorts of details about how sick he was the night before & all of the symptoms he was feeling, but that he's headed to work. Really? I think to myself, for someone who has been dormant & distant, this is a lot of sharing.

I don't respond.

H sends a subsequent text 15 minutes later to inform me that he's not going to work. Rather, he's going back to bed. Again, strange to get a play by play of his morning - this is the life I lived for many decades but not the recent year.

Again, I don't quickly respond to his text. In this case, I was so confused behind his need to provide me with so much detail. He's been so secretive. Why now?

I finally respond with 'that s*cks. feel better'. It took hours to land on these words....

This morning, another text update from H. What? What's going on? H says, "I'm feeling better today. Made it to work." I still haven't responded.

Again, I want to celebrate the possible movement through this dark tunnel, especially since I (we all) know how hard it is to be a LBS through the uncertain no contact times. Vets have made it clear that I can't fix H bc I didn't break him. BUT, what do I do with this? What do I make of this?

And, I know in time, H will eventually come for his boxed belongings...whether this week or next. DnJ has mentioned that I shouldn't even be home when H comes by. Or, to be busy and preoccupied while he packs his stuff up. That's my plan. IF, and I know it's an IF, but a likely IF...H asks questions about why I packed his things, what is my reason?

Is it recommended that I respond with
- While I don't think D is the answer, I understand our marriage is over and am looking to heal for my next chapter.

Or

- I respect you and your decision to no longer be married. You've made it clear and I'm accepting of his wishes.

[Valeska19]

Thursday morning comes and I get a lengthy and detailed text from H that starts with "Good morning". Wow, Good morning? This is a surprise, a change.

H isn't sure if today is going to work bc he doesn't feel well. H provides me all sorts of details about how sick he was the night before & all of the symptoms he was feeling, but that he's headed to work. Really? I think to myself, for someone who has been dormant & distant, this is a lot of sharing.

I don't respond.

H sends a subsequent text 15 minutes later to inform me that he's not going to work. Rather, he's going back to bed. Again, strange to get a play by play of his morning - this is the life I lived for many decades but not the recent year.

Again, I don't quickly respond to his text. In this case, I was so confused behind his need to provide me with so much detail. He's been so secretive. Why now?

I finally respond with 'that s*cks. feel better'. It took hours to land on these words....

This morning, another text update from H. What? What's going on? H says, "I'm feeling better today. Made it to work." I still haven't responded.

Again, I want to celebrate the possible movement through this dark tunnel, especially since I (we all) know how hard it is to be a LBS through the uncertain no contact times. Vets have made it clear that I can't fix H bc I didn't break him. BUT, what do I do with this? What do I make of this?

You probably aren't going to my answer... but DO nothing. Keep the course.

Based on your old dynamic - H isn't used to MamaG taking care of herself... choosing herself. This throws him off. Long before he decides to make the shift towards you (if he decides that), he's going to test the waters. Right now - its a H's pity party with illness. Let's see what happens when you keep the course. My bet is that you are going to experience some anger with these new changes.

What LBSs seem to not understand is that their WAS also grieve the loss of the relationship. It may look a little different but they too go through their own little emotional rollercoaster ride. Some weeks they may be sweet and text more, other weeks - they may be mad as dirt and spitting fire.

It can be very hard to grasp the idea that the WAS can miss their spouse... and still move forward with the divorce. Because of this.. the LBS will create false hope. They see positives that may not really be there. Their guard comes down and their changes are challenged. And if the changes aren't for them... this is when they go back to their old selves.

This is why we say things like "believe nothing they say and half of what they do" or "don't backtrack on your hard earned changes"

Unfortunately one text message isn't a sign of anything. If/When your husband wants in the marriage - you will know. Until then - you stay the course.. because you are the prize and deserve a loving husband who wants to be with you. Hard stop.

This is a belief you never express to your H. This a belief that you tell yourself because YOU are the one that needs to believe it first. Only then can you teach others how to treat you.

And, I know in time, H will eventually come for his boxed belongings...whether this week or next. DnJ has mentioned that I shouldn't even be home when H comes by. Or, to be busy and preoccupied while he packs his stuff up. That's my plan. IF, and I know it's an IF, but a likely IF...H asks questions about why I packed his things, what is my reason?

Is it recommended that I respond with
- While I don't think D is the answer, I understand our marriage is over and am looking to heal for my next chapter.

Or

- I respect you and your decision to no longer be married. You've made it clear and I'm accepting of his wishes.

You say NOTHING. Don't engage.

You have made some good strides... but you still have so much work to do. In the beginning - it's a constant battle changing your behavior. If you aren't constantly checking yourself - you are likely just to answer the same way you did before this all happened.

You have to find inner peace with who you are becoming. If you are doing this in the hopes of your husband changing - you are gonna crack like an egg when he changes tactics and I promise you... he will.

[DnJ]

Hello MG

Aerators usually are screwed on. They may be a wee bit tight. A careful (so to not scratch the faucet) application of chanel-lock pliers, a nice twist counter clockwise, and they should loosen ease-pease.

V is spot on. H isn’t use to MamaG2.0. Stay the course MG.

'I boxed up your personal belongings....let's plan for Th night.' I got a quick 'sounds good' response.

Good for you.

I could hear the reality behind the positive remark - I know that he wasn't good with his stuff getting packaged and put in a basement - and knew right away that he was feeling my distancing and 180. Perhaps, feeling my loss and his consequences.

Be cautious here. Lots of mind reading going on by you. It pretty common for LBS. After all, a long marriage and knowing someone for such a while, one gets a pretty good read on their spouse. However, that’s with old H. This pod-person, MLC H, is a different cat. Do not fall into the mind reading trap. Simply read H’s words as written. No assigning emotions or motives to them.

IF...H asks questions about why I packed his things, what is my reason?

Is it recommended that I respond with
- While I don't think D is the answer, I understand our marriage is over and am looking to heal for my next chapter.

Or

- I respect you and your decision to no longer be married. You've made it clear and I'm accepting of his wishes.

Less is more with MLCers.

Both your statements are true and valid, and H will gloss over them and not really hear it. Remember, when you answer H’s questions, and only the ones you choose, you need not answer all, when you do answer - short, to the point, stick to the facts. Minimize trying to sway him or get him to see the light. He has to come to that on his own.

Lean towards not giving any reason. However, if you need to, “You moved out” should speak volumes methinks.

Take care MG,

D

[MamaG]

As the weekend wraps up, I'm reflecting on the busyness that I managed through. Frankly, it felt really good to GAL. Breakfast on Saturday with a friend. S and GF came for dinner Saturday night. I really miss cooking and entertaining...and with wonderful company. Just loved every second of it.

As I set out, I needed to get the power washer running. After making some effort in early June and failing, this was on my list of things to accomplish before heading back to work from being on medical leave. I did it. A few online videos, a little grease and some sweat but I got the thing running and I power washed for a few hours today. It felt great to do it on my own - well mom was here for company. H would always troubleshoot and get the washer going - never liked to start right up in the Spring. Then I'd jump in and wash things up. I wasn't sure I could start the thing but I was determined and succeeded. It feels so good. It also hit me and it was yet sobering to think that this may be my next chapter - outdoor house chores on my own. Sigh.

Aerators usually are screwed on. They may be a wee bit tight. A careful (so to not scratch the faucet) application of chanel-lock pliers, a nice twist counter clockwise, and they should loosen ease-pease. smile

I don't have aerators. Removing the screens require a key. Got the keys and need to get on that next weekend. The air in the pipes is better but that's not good enough for this girl.

Not reaching out to H has gotten easier. I still think about H several times a day and miss him. Tears still find their way down my cheeks. Not knowing what H is up to is disheartening but I trust that until H hits rock bottom and/or really feels my loss, I stand no chance at him scaling the wall back to reality. This gives me strength to DB. Meanwhile, it feels as tho I'm losing my love for him. I'm hopeful that I'm simply putting my love on a shelf but question the feeling that my love for H isn't quite so deep. Are the rose-colored glasses coming off or do we just not share moments/life that kept us so in love? Kept us intertwined? Kept us laughing? Sigh, again.

You probably aren't going to my answer... but DO nothing. Keep the course.

Based on your old dynamic - H isn't used to MamaG taking care of herself... choosing herself. This throws him off. Long before he decides to make the shift towards you (if he decides that), he's going to test the waters. Right now - its a H's pity party with illness. Let's see what happens when you keep the course. My bet is that you are going to experience some anger with these new changes.

Guess what I did? Nothing.

Saturday morning, H text (again) to tell me he was going to stop by to get some things on Sunday afternoon. Woah, day 3 in a row with a text from H.

Guess what I did with that text? Nothing. His text was presumptuous that he could come on Sunday afternoon. Like...I'm sitting here for him to come by. Or H cycled. Who knows?

I didn't respond to his text all weekend....and H didn't come by. No text. No visit.

What LBSs seem to not understand is that their WAS also grieve the loss of the relationship. It may look a little different but they too go through their own little emotional rollercoaster ride. Some weeks they may be sweet and text more, other weeks - they may be mad as dirt and spitting fire.

It can be very hard to grasp the idea that the WAS can miss their spouse... and still move forward with the divorce. Because of this.. the LBS will create false hope. They see positives that may not really be there. Their guard comes down and their changes are challenged. And if the changes aren't for them... this is when they go back to their old selves.

I know H is grieving me. H's look on his face a couple weeks ago when he saw me for the first time in 7 weeks said it all. I was cold and unwelcoming for the 2 minutes he stopped by. I still don't know of a PA and even question the EA at this point. I don't snoop so anything is possible but I genuinely think his limerant object is a combo of work, weed, alcohol, porn.Mostly distractions. I'm beginning to believe H is a fearful avoidant and has just gotten comfortable in his four walls and going to work. This will get old. I can't imagine it won't. Until then, H will live where I do not comfort him.

You have to find inner peace with who you are becoming. If you are doing this in the hopes of your husband changing - you are gonna crack like an egg when he changes tactics and I promise you... he will.

I sometimes wonder and believe there is a bit of both - doing it for me and doing it for his healing/return. With the support of this forum, I will not crack. Stick with me. I'm trying.

Be cautious here. Lots of mind reading going on by you. It pretty common for LBS. After all, a long marriage and knowing someone for such a while, one gets a pretty good read on their spouse. However, that’s with old H. This pod-person, MLC H, is a different cat. Do not fall into the mind reading trap. Simply read H’s words as written. No assigning emotions or motives to them.

This comment gave me pause. I didn't consider that my "knowing" H could lead to incorrect interpretation. Although in this case I was spot on since D got the 'woe is me' text that evening. That said, I'll have to watch for mind reading trap. Didn't realize that they aren't quite as predicting. Yes, they do and say strange things so it would make sense....just assumed that his reaction to me packing things for him couldn't mean "sounds good" to him.

Lean towards not giving any reason. However, if you need to, “You moved out” should speak volumes methinks.

So simple and direct - love it. Why can't I just keep it simple stupid (KISS)? I'm laughing and shaking my head all at once.

That's all for today. Off to the office tomorrow - back to real life.

Good night!

[MamaG]

H sent another text this morning..." Gm! if I get out of work at a decent time (which hasn't happened all summer) I'll stop over to get things." H must really want his belongings. That's F, Sat and today with similar outreaches to me for his things.

What did I do? Nothing

I've asked myself why don't I respond? What exactly is my reasoning? a boundary? no question therefore no response?

Coincidentally, H texted the kids today that he misses them. The kids too didn't respond. Hours later he told the kids that it's rude to ignore his texts....not sure if that generated any response from kids. H is laying in the bed he made and continues to make. Sigh (I take no pride in this).

Question on boundaries....to share or not to share.

After considering why I don't respond to H, I realize that there are a few drivers.
- I'm giving him the space he's asked for.
- I'm removing myself from the emotional harm's way that comes from breadcrumbing.
- I'm protecting myself from the emotional abuse derived from his coping mechanism. To prevent H from disrespecting me by leaving in the middle of a conversation or conflict, I just don't allow myself to engage.

How do you feel about me sharing my boundary when H asks me why I ignore him? If you're agreeable to me sharing the boundary out loud, is this what it should sound like?

H, I haven't engaged because it's never clear if a conversation will be completed or if you'll leave in the middle of it. Walking away is a form of emotional abuse that I won't tolerate.

[Valeska19]

After considering why I don't respond to H, I realize that there are a few drivers.
- I'm giving him the space he's asked for.
- I'm removing myself from the emotional harm's way that comes from breadcrumbing.
- I'm protecting myself from the emotional abuse derived from his coping mechanism. To prevent H from disrespecting me by leaving in the middle of a conversation or conflict, I just don't allow myself to engage.

How do you feel about me sharing my boundary when H asks me why I ignore him? If you're agreeable to me sharing the boundary out loud, is this what it should sound like?

H, I haven't engaged because it's never clear if a conversation will be completed or if you'll leave in the middle of it. Walking away is a form of emotional abuse that I won't tolerate.

I wouldn't share them. He will most likely use ammo against you. And frankly... it's none of his business anymore. He's fired you as his W - he doesn't get that kind of info.

If you want to allow him to come get his things - you could do something to control the situation to make it safer for you. You could set the time to make sure you aren't home therefore not engaging with him

If tonight works for you - you could say. "Ok. The available time I have is blank".

Or if tonight doesn't work - You could say.

"Tonight doesn't work for me. Times that work are these dates and these times."

Keep it short. And remember - just because he asks questions, doesn't mean you have to answer them. It's not about being rude. It's about setting the expectation that if he isn't going to respect your heart - he's not getting access to it.

[MamaG]

When you detach and distance yourself from your spouse, notice how they start coming around, being nice, etc.? Well, he/she feels that you are not pursuing them. They want the chase, they want you to pursue them so that they can come back and slam dunk you all over again. It's a dance of madness. They may not even be aware of what they are doing, but once you snap up the niceness all over again, they will most definitely come back w/anger to distance themselves from you again for their safety and security.

Man oh man, this is so spot on. I found myself reading this thread again and not only does it make sense, it is happening at this house. I may sound excited. In actuality, I'm more relieved that I didn't totally lose him from lack of responding. I know that if I reached out to a friend this much and didn't get a response, I wouldn't continue reaching out.

Got the morning text from H again that he'll come tonight. Valeska19, I took what you said into consideration and opted to not respond to H at all. This evening, I rec'd a text that tonight isn't going to work as he pulled his hamstring. (Life is really getting real for H. Feeling reality.) It feels horrible to not respond to H despite his many texts but as a result, H is relentless now with his outreaches. Do more of what works and less of what doesn't. I just counted 6 texts to me without a single acknowledgement nor response from me. I've asked myself, when will I respond to H?...I don't want to the "slam dunk". That's for sure.

D was harassed with numerous texts again today. H is trying very differently with her. There are questions about why she doesn't answer him. Comments about he'll always be her dad and that he loves her. Definitely different outreaches. (I'm at peace with this ... just an observation.)

Talked with S for an hour today. I'm so proud of him. He's approaching the close of his first year in his career and learned today that he's up for promotion. I love that he pursued the difficult engineering degree and stuck with it through COVID years. So proud of him. Looking forward to seeing him and GF this weekend as we celebrate my mom's bday.
 
For me, today was a day in the city to confirm that cancer hasn't returned. I'm happy to report that not only did I not get chauffeured by H (first time), but I also rec'd the best news - I'm cancer free. No better news could have been sent my way. Thank you God!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Cancer free is very great news! Yay!

H sent another text this morning..." Gm! if I get out of work at a decent time (which hasn't happened all summer) I'll stop over to get things." H must really want his belongings. That's F, Sat and today with similar outreaches to me for his things.

H’s texts aren’t really about his belongings. It’s the dance.

My XW texts or calls the kids nonstop until they respond. As soon as they respond she has nothing to say and goes silent running again, for weeks or months.

What did I do? Nothing

Good. There was no question that needed an answer.

I've asked myself why don't I respond? What exactly is my reasoning? a boundary? no question therefore no response?

People will treat you as you allow them to.

Boundaries are your response to disrespectful behaviour. A response derived by your self confidence, self worth, self respect, and such.

Question on boundaries....to share or not to share.

A boundary can be implemented without ever verbally stating it. The message comes more from the action.

Boundaries need to be rock solid, for they will be tested. Let them test. Boundaries reflect one’s inner values and worth. Pretty easy once one’s realized, categorized, and organized their convictions. What they are truly standing for.

After considering why I don't respond to H, I realize that there are a few drivers.
- I'm giving him the space he's asked for.
- I'm removing myself from the emotional harm's way that comes from breadcrumbing.
- I'm protecting myself from the emotional abuse derived from his coping mechanism. To prevent H from disrespecting me by leaving in the middle of a conversation or conflict, I just don't allow myself to engage.

All valid and good.

H leaving mid conversation when things go against his narrative is rather childish. Alas, teenager H. Lots of growing up needed for that man.

How do you feel about me sharing my boundary when H asks me why I ignore him? If you're agreeable to me sharing the boundary out loud, is this what it should sound like?

H, I haven't engaged because it's never clear if a conversation will be completed or if you'll leave in the middle of it. Walking away is a form of emotional abuse that I won't tolerate.

If H continues to push for a reason why you are ignoring his texts/him, I’d likely state something clearly to him. Remove blaming him, and focus more on what he does and the action you’ll take.

A boundary template goes like: When you do ___, I feel/it is ___. Therefore, when you ___, I will ___.

H, when you leave in the middle of a conversation, it is disrespectful. Therefore, when you choose to walk away, I will not engage you.

Such will set the stage pretty clearly.

However, like I said, a boundary need not be spoken. Its message is stated by your actions. If you choose to tell H, do so only once. Repeating boundaries just waters them down.

D

[MamaG]

Over the last couple of weeks, H reached out 9 days post the last text...still about coming for 'his stuff' over the weekend. Yes, this dance continues. I didn't respond and here comes another text. H says, "And talk?"

Hmm...H hasn't been getting a reaction to coming to get his things, so H changes it up. H suggests....to talk.

I told him that late morning Sat or Sun works. That was it (as much as I wanted to ask when and what to talk about...).

I got nervous, excited, anxious, confused. Woah the emotions. After collecting myself, I read through some notes I've written and told myself that I won't talk nor fill in the dead air. I'm going to listen and validate. I knew this would be hard but I was determined as I knew this to be the recommendation from vets. Didn't sleep much that night.

Saturday comes and I get a text that "tomorrow will work better". Ok - I could've predicted that but was happy that he sent the text to keep me informed. I didn't respond.

That Sat night, I was made aware that H headed to a town playoff soccer game where H was surrounded by townies - friends and family...and families behaving like families. His job doesn't provide for this exposure/reminder, and H has been hunkering down with his depression-avoiding. I wonder how many people asked about us or for those who aren't aware of his decision to separate, how many asked about me. He sat with his sister and I prayed that she triggered him bc she is sooo much like his mom. Perhaps on some level, she did...as Sunday came and went and I rec'd no text about coming by. Perhaps H just continued to avoid, was scared/fear, emotions from being at game set him back.... Who knows?

I was informed that H continues to wear his wedding band - secretively, I love this and hope that it means something positive. His FB profile pics remains unchanged and is of him and I. And, still no indication of a PA. I'm still hoping this is a horrible transition and not crisis. How do I distinguish?

Tuesday comes and another text comes in - this is now 6 weeks of texting about the same topic. Not sure if you're all bored with this but I am flabbergasted. I know all too well that this isn't about getting his stuff - thanks DnJ for confirming the dance. (and sorry to hear that your kids are still getting the song/dance from their mom. It's crazy to think after all these years). Just sometimes wonder how he doesn't see that he's been needing things for 6 weeks and still hasn't gotten them...I would think H realizes that there is another reason for outreaches. When will he see this?

Long story short....I responded to Tuesday's text with what I would call a truth dart. "Late morning Sat and Sun worked. Tonight does not". H acknowledged text and hasn't reached back out. And, another 180 for me!

I'd like to think that H is seeing that he can't control/manipulate me anymore and that I'm not making time for him with excitement. I actually had plans but H would've gotten that response from me either way.

My son's GF has been staying with me which is nice company. Still I miss H at night (well all day). I really miss this man. Limboland is lonely and hard despite going to work and GALing to stay busy. Hard as it may be, I continue to let go and I'm pretty sure I've dropped the rope - still learning and grieving. Sometimes reluctantly. Logic from vets tells me to keep going and so I do.

H pursued D again - pretty aggressively with multiple texts and calls. This is the second time in a month where he's demanded that he be her priority out of nowhere. This time, he ended the stretch of calls/texts with a text that said he wouldn't reach out to her anymore. He was sad but if she doesn't want to stay connected, he'll respect her wishes. To date, he has. Could H be attempting reconnecting? Could he have seen another awakening? I read that suicidal thoughts can be signs of dips into depression. Could he have dipped a toe into depression before the withdrawal stage? (H did tell her that he had thoughts of the unspeakable for the first time in a long time. She didn't bite that bait either and I'm thankful it was bait and not real.)

Eventually H will come by for 'his things' and we talk - and by that, I mean he talks and I listen. How would vets feel about me providing an 'apology dump' within his talk? Meaning, I apologize for my side of the street with no expectations from him. Wonder if that would contribute to H seeing that I've reflected and made some changes; seeing that therapy helps; acknowledging that I really am a better/different person and not so scary to connect with.... 

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Mama,
CONGRATULATIONS on being cancer-free! I have been a survivor for 18 years. May you stay cancer free and never have to think about it again!

I feel like our situations are so similar - our H's are so similar - though you're much farther down the separation path, and I read your blog here for advice and support (my H will be moving out soon). I think you're doing an amazing job of handling this horrific situation. But look at you - you've learned to survive and thrive on your own, you've learned to stand up for yourself with H and you've learned to fix things too!!

I empathize with your feelings around H's texts. I also am tempted to "read in" to anything that H says or does. This morning H left early to go surfing and left me a note. This is unusual behavior from him - he normally just leaves. Last week I had a business trip to Chicago and he texted me to say "How is Chicago?" (not "how are YOU" but it was something. I replied with photos and that was it). It is a sad state of affairs that we have had to reduce our expectations to zero and any sort of normal communication becomes something to think about.

I also wanted to share a similar experience around being sick - around your bandaged arms. Of course we would want and expect H to ask what happened, to show concern, to help. I recently came down with the flu or something like it and was sick in bed for 2 days. Not once did H ask how I was feeling or offer to do anything helpful. Well, once, he did offer to refill my water and then left it downstairs. It's such a bad feeling when they can see that you are hurting and they just turn away. Do we feel worse for ourselves or worse for THEM to be in such a state?

I found it interesting that H chose to text you and D when he was sick... looking for a bit of sympathy... Good for you for not taking the bait. He needs to feel the reality of his choices. He has given up the rights to get any sort of sympathy or help from you. I am getting better at simply sitting back, shrugging, and saying nothing and I find that helps me feel better too.

Keep posting - I find that it helps to work things out in a safe space. Each day you are getting stronger. You have the love and support of your children, friends and family. Continue on your path - you are learning how to manage this situation and I am learning from your experience too.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I got nervous, excited, anxious, confused. Woah the emotions. After collecting myself, I read through some notes I've written and told myself that I won't talk nor fill in the dead air. I'm going to listen and validate. I knew this would be hard but I was determined as I knew this to be the recommendation from vets. Didn't sleep much that night.

Well done re-establishing your center and balance. Really like the determination to not fill in the dead air times.

Sunday came and went and I rec'd no text about coming by. Perhaps H just continued to avoid, was scared/fear, emotions from being at game set him back.... Who knows?

Yep, who knows?

Interestingly, H likely doesn’t know either.

His path is driven by his feelings. Something stirred, and he avoided or ran or forgot. These folks do seem to have the attention span of a gnat. Their direction/heading flitting about like their feelings flit about.

Tuesday comes and another text comes in - this is now 6 weeks of texting about the same topic. Not sure if you're all bored with this but I am flabbergasted. I know all too well that this isn't about getting his stuff - thanks DnJ for confirming the dance.

It’s kind of wild isn’t it? And no, not bored at all.

Just sometimes wonder how he doesn't see that he's been needing things for 6 weeks and still hasn't gotten them...I would think H realizes that there is another reason for outreaches. When will he see this?

He sees things much differently than you.

Remember, words vs actions. And even then, only like half of his actions.

Limboland is lonely and hard despite going to work and GALing to stay busy. Hard as it may be, I continue to let go and I'm pretty sure I've dropped the rope - still learning and grieving. Sometimes reluctantly. Logic from vets tells me to keep going and so I do.

You are doing really good. And yes, drop the rope or be dragged.

Limboland is quite the crucible. It’s not forever. And Limboland is choice as well. Embrace it. Keep doing that inner work. You’ll emerge from the crucible version 2.0; bright and shiny like the precious gem you are.

How would vets feel about me providing an 'apology dump' within his talk? Meaning, I apologize for my side of the street with no expectations from him. Wonder if that would contribute to H seeing that I've reflected and made some changes; seeing that therapy helps; acknowledging that I really am a better/different person and not so scary to connect with....

I’d not dump. Certainly, apologize when warranted. Some may be warranted during the talk, maybe days later. Listen and give yourself time to mull over what he has said. Don’t want to water down his talk. If he indeed wants to talk.

As to getting H to see the new and improved you. You can only lead a horse to water. Your best way is to demonstrate it. Actions vs words. You live it. And leave/let H notice when he does. Remember, H has built up a whole narrative in his head. It will take time for him to alter that.

I'm still hoping this is a horrible transition and not crisis. How do I distinguish?

Time.

From the front end it is near impossible to distinguish. A crisis being a transition gone very much into the weeds.

Basically, a crisis is just worse all around. A crisis lasts longer. Much longer. And progresses glacially slow.

A crisis is consuming. A MLCer is lost. A very lost soul.

Two major hallmarks of a midlife crisis are depression and confusion. The exhibited running behaviour is the desperate person trying to get away from their unrealized unexplained inner torment.

Desperate! Desperate people do desperate things.

Hurt! Hurt people, hurt people.

A crisis is truly horrible. Emotions and torment cranked to eleven, and even passed that.

We all go through various life stages. The midlife transition is a time of recollection, recognizing, reconciling, life’s accolades and regrets; achievements and failures; and such. A transition itself can be tumultuous full of disorder and chaos or more smooth depending upon the individuals past, personality, ability to accept, and a host of other variables. My own transition was rather smooth methinks.

Exiting into the next stage of life can take various paths too, depending upon one’s life to that point.

Myself, I found, I am, happy with my past marriage, my kids, my career, my life. Such leads to a time of peace and contentment, IMHO. I’ve accumulated very few regrets over my years.

Some exit or find their golden years less golden. Such an exit being more of resigned to their lot in life, rather than looking forward to it. We’ve all seen those grumpy people grumbling away. Eyes and outlook more downcast than upward and forward looking.

Midlife, like all transitions, is about acceptance. It’s a loss. One must grieve it. One must find their acceptance with it. No one gets a do-over here, and those that cannot find peace with that, get caught and tangled in the transition. Desperately trying to relive what they feel is their lost youth/life. A bad transition may buy the red sport car, a horrible crisis will burn down their entire life.

Each is seeking their path towards acceptance.

Time.

A MLT builds upon one’s successful life stages thus far. A MLC is seeded from long ago unknown trauma(s). A lot more growing up to do in a crisis.

Time.

Transitions take time.

A crisis takes much more time. And some never exit.

D

[MamaG]

RegretfulLA and DnJ thanks for stopping by to share and comment. I love to hear from you and our community.

RegretfulLA, Congratulations on your cancer-free success. Prayers for all who face cancer! Happy to hear it's been 18 years for you.

I feel like our situations are so similar - our H's are so similar - though you're much farther down the separation path, and I read your blog here for advice and support (my H will be moving out soon). I think you're doing an amazing job of handling this horrific situation. But look at you - you've learned to survive and thrive on your own, you've learned to stand up for yourself with H and you've learned to fix things too!!

Everyone's situation is different and yet, so identical. Learning from others and hearing that there is someone else out there in a similar sitch, is validating on some level. There are times that validation is what I need. So, thank you for helping me along my journey, too!

You are doing really good. And yes, drop the rope or be dragged.

Limboland is quite the crucible. It’s not forever. And Limboland is choice as well. Embrace it. Keep doing that inner work. You’ll emerge from the crucible version 2.0; bright and shiny like the precious gem you are.

Today, is a particularly hard day for me. I went away with my brother for most of the week. This would never have happened if H hadn't stepped away from our R. Doing things with others is a positive change for me. Brother has been supportive. I don't lean on him to understand my sitch but in his own way, he offers support through companionship and adventure. Our time away was nice. We laughed and bonded. We frustrated each other. I got triggered, as he did. Eye-opening as I reflect on who I am and who I'd like to be. At times, vaca felt like a distraction and going through the motions. Watching couples behave 'normal' through romantic sight-seeing spots, at the airport, in restaurants...everywhere...with love in their eyes was difficult at times. Memories...I was happy for them and reminiscing at the same time. As we traveled, there were many reminders of what H would do for me as a traveling companion. I'm still hurting and healing. Sigh.

In hindsight, I did all I could to not shed tears, and I found myself burying my feelings to enjoy the week. Didn't want Brother to have bad feelings. It was such pressure. Yes, pressure. It reminded me of stories on this site to explain how MLCers feel - pressure from everyone and everything. I better understand what pressure may feel/look like. Coming home this morning allowed me to let it all out. I held a pity party with my two dogs. And then, I turned to this site and re-read my thread. Yup, more tears coupled with strength to carry on as I face reality.

Not once did H ask how I was feeling or offer to do anything helpful. Well, once, he did offer to refill my water and then left it downstairs. It's such a bad feeling when they can see that you are hurting and they just turn away. Do we feel worse for ourselves or worse for THEM to be in such a state?

RegretfulLA, you ask, "do we feel worst for ourselves or ....THEM..." I don't know. In my pity party today, I got mad at H for 'doing this to me', for being selfish, for not being there for me, for taking away from summer joys, for texting me about the same thing over months and DOING nothing, for not texting, for leaving me alone with a large home to tend to. The list goes on and on. It was quite a party. Mom called in the middle of this party. I convinced myself that I could compartmentalize my 'party' feelings and that I could answer her. Nope. I now need to apologize to mom. Sigh.

Today, I feel worst for me. Tomorrow is another day. It'll be a better day. Tomorrow is dad's bday so I'll be surrounded by family and celebrating someone who has always shown strength. As DnJ reminds me, I just need to get through today and do the inner work. I'll gain something from today's feelings.

Keep doing that inner work. You’ll emerge from the crucible version 2.0; bright and shiny like the precious gem you are.

DnJ - glad you aren't bored with the dance as I continue to step through it. Sunday night came the text about coming Monday. I told him that this week was a crazy one and then suggested Saturday. H responded that he may work on Saturday. In my head, I responded with, 'You used to work 3 or 4 days a week. Now you HAVE to work 6 days.' I then returned to my vacation thoughts and provided no response. Here we are Saturday and no additional text nor visit. Yup, now at 7 weeks...

Just sometimes wonder how he doesn't see that he's been needing things for 6 weeks and still hasn't gotten them...I would think H realizes that there is another reason for outreaches. When will he see this?

He sees things much differently than you.

Can you expand on this comment? I believe H sees things differently but what did you mean by 'differently'? What are possibilities of 'different' so I can better understand your thought?

Listen and give yourself time to mull over what he has said. Don’t want to water down his talk. If he indeed wants to talk.

Yup! Makes sense. At this point, I wonder if H will ever come by...today's not looking good as I've still not heard from him despite me offering today (Saturday).

DnJ - thanks for all the insight on transition versus crisis. Good refresher and appreciate your grounding comments. Still praying for a transition.

An update on D & H's situation... While I was on vaca, D called me with relief that she finally decided how to respond to dad. It had been a week since H texted her that he was having suicidal thoughts. She never took the threat seriously, so she decided to think through her response. I was proud that she allowed herself the time she needed so as to not react. Rather, she responded with what I see as a truth dart. In short, D reminded H that it had been nearly a year (since BD2 and she learned about H's wish to divorce) and he doesn't appear to be happier nor act any differently. She then suggested that it is time to seek a therapist. All the while, she ignored his effort to coerce her into a response to his manipulation/control attempts. I'm not sure if she KNOWS what she's doing but D's responses appear to be following advice shared here. That is, delayed responses, truth darts, not emotionally based reactions, short responses, non-engaging. I promise, D is having a hard time with all of this but from H's perspective, I'd like to think that he begins to see that she has it all together and he's missing out on who once was so much of his world. I'm not sure how I feel about her insisting on seeking a therapist as this has been her constant message to him. He may see it as controlling....and we know MLCers like to be in control. Time will tell, won't it?

[RegretfulLA]

I am sorry, MamaG! I hope your pity party helped you clear some of your emotions. But sometimes, you just have to let those emotions out. I haven't had my pity party yet but I'm sure once everyone clears out of here next month, I'll have one. I also have 2 dogs btw! I am sure I will be leaning on them for comfort and company!

I feel like there is a lot of grief in this journey. As they say, grief comes in waves. Some days are fine, others are hard. You never know when you'll be hit by a wave, but in time, the waves get smaller.

I would love to see your H get some therapy. Coming from your D, it might be easier for him to hear. Certainly he will never listen to you if you say it.

Good for you for spending some time with your brother and getting away. I empathize with your feelings at seeing happy couples. I'm not much of a social media user, but now it's even harder because I feel envious of my friends' happy relationships. We don't need that in our face when we are struggling. One thing that I heard a lot when I was going through cancer was "new normal". Well, this is your new normal. Pretty soon it won't feel new, and it will just feel normal, as hard as that seems right now.

And one more thing: it seems to me that most LBS end up doing BETTER. Maybe they've had to take a financial hit, but they regain their dignity and some sense of themselves. As you told me, you and your H have been together basically your entire lives, so you have been in the role of wife or wife/mother for a very long time. I have been working with my therapist on ME. And this is your time to work on YOU - who is MamaG and what makes her happy?

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Just sometimes wonder how he doesn't see that he's been needing things for 6 weeks and still hasn't gotten them...I would think H realizes that there is another reason for outreaches. When will he see this?

He sees things much differently than you.

Can you expand on this comment? I believe H sees things differently but what did you mean by 'differently'? What are possibilities of 'different' so I can better understand your thought?

A quote within a quote within a quote. For some reason I feel like watching Inception today. LOL.



H is driven by emotions. Basically depression. His behaviours, his “running” behaviours are him both, trying to outrun his feelings and to actually feel something, to feel alive. H is tormented, and numb. Almost dead inside while simultaneously consumed by emotions. It’s little wonder they are overwhelmed.

We all see, interpret, the world through our own lens. And our own position, distance, vantage point. You have a much different view of H’s crisis than he does.

You see H’s MLC rationally and have an understanding of the journey. The overall why of it. Why it is happening. Your vantage point allows a much different perspective than H can see.

H is driven by his emotions. He sees and interprets his world emotionally. Emotionally, that’s the “why” my XW could and did through away her own children.

Both H’s and your views are valid and true. The same truth, just different keyholes/lens looking upon the world.

Anyhow, differences and possibilities. H says he needs his things. Yet, seven weeks go by. So not needs, more wants. You think H would realize this. That’s your perspective of course.

Depression. H may indeed need his things. However, depression is dark and consuming. Oh, it can twist and bring down a soul.

My own slog through depression after BD was deep. Life just went grey. Nothing had any joy. Nothing had any urgency. If fact, an especially regrettable fact, there was such a lack of urgency or timeliness, I just keep putting off ordering my daughter’s graduation pictures. So much, that they expired. As such, I/we do not have her graduations pictures. Depression is no joke.

Bills got forgot. Grocery shopping was not important. Etc. Very difficult time. Lots of brooding and suffering.

So, H’s clothes and stuff are importantly and not. He needs them, like I needed to pay the electric bill, and yet doesn’t get them.

Now, a crisis is also running from feelings and trying to feel. H also is seeing if you are still sitting on the shelf, waiting and pinning for him. He will manipulate as well. Push as far as he can, just to see how far he can. He will test boundaries. He will try to keep you on the hook.

He will also ignore. Be super secretive and not share his whereabouts or what he is doing or has done.

MLCers exhibit some strange behaviours. Some will keep bits of wrapping paper and string from gifts from us, yet toss us aside. Make arrangements over and over to pick stuff up and never come. My XW’s belongings eventually just got thrown into the garbage. (The wedding dress story is pretty comical.)

And then, there is the drinking, smoking, drugs, fast cars, etc. Trying to relive what they feel is a missed youth. That teenager mentality. Indestructible, will live forever, and will put things off.

Quite a hodgepodge of feelings and behaviours, and numbness and brooding. Some purposeful, most not, most just due to how they feel at that moment.

H makes arrangements because he feels like it in that moment. Later he feels differently. Scared to face you. Ashamed. Or bored, indifferent, guilty, angry, sad, numb.

Depression is ever present. And colors his world a dark grey. Difficult to see anything but grey in a grey world.

Like I said, H sees things much differently than you. His behaviours will have little rationale to them.


Daughter’s response to Dad was good. Very level-headed and emotionally calm. H might just hear her. Although, he is more likely to run from such pressures/control as “seek a therapist”. Time will tell.

It sounds like D21 considering her responses well. After a year, I’d suspect she’s reasonable worked out Dad’s reactions and responses to her conversations. Worked out, and working out, their relationship.

When daughter comes to you - like she did regarding her path about Dad’s suicidal thoughts - validate, reinforce, and gently steer. I’m sure you told her how proud you are of her and how she handled it. I’d add on some knowledge / wisdom of how folks embroiled in emotional turmoil react to too much pressure. Just something for her information, for her to gauge her path is all. And tell her that. You are not trying to alter or control her path, she’s doing really well. Just another tool for the toolbox is all.

Have a great day MG!

D

[DnJ]

it seems to me that most LBS end up doing BETTER.

Absolutely!

Most LBS put in the effort, do the inner work, and end up better. So much better, they’d not go back to the way things were, even if they could.

Forward and better. And just maybe their spouse decides to work and catch up.

[MamaG]

I haven't had my pity party yet but I'm sure once everyone clears out of here next month, I'll have one. I also have 2 dogs btw! I am sure I will be leaning on them for comfort and company!

Yup! Those unwelcomed parties sneak up on us, don't they?! Hold fur babies tight. Mine certainly knew when I needed them and had a way of coming around with their puppy dog eyes. Their unconditional love is something I aspire to. Should you 'party', update us here as a way to vent and we will support you.

I would love to see your H get some therapy. Coming from your D, it might be easier for him to hear. Certainly he will never listen to you if you say it.

I've suggested therapy a few times and the last time I did (in April time frame?) he almost appeared to consider it. I wonder if he was 'acting' to appease me but he paused before responding with 'not yet'. Sometimes I wonder if he thinks D and I are tag-teaming him. She and I are similar in so many ways and our reactions have been similar too. Let H wonder.

One thing that I heard a lot when I was going through cancer was "new normal". Well, this is your new normal. Pretty soon it won't feel new, and it will just feel normal, as hard as that seems right now.

I like this!! Thanks for sharing.

My initial feelings when I see happy couples is that of happiness and warmth. I remember feeling unstoppable and so in love. My secondary thoughts are that of missing H and these thoguhts I could do without. For now, this is my 'new normal'. TY

A quote within a quote within a quote. For some reason I feel like watching Inception today. LOL.

Laughing. If only I knew how to keep this going with syntax!

Both H’s and your views are valid and true. The same truth, just different keyholes/lens looking upon the world.

DnJ - your patience and comforting approach really help with understanding. This line really shed light on differing views of his need to come get things. TY. The additional commentary supported this comment and helped me see your thought.

Life just went grey. Nothing had any joy. Nothing had any urgency. If fact, an especially regrettable fact, there was such a lack of urgency or timeliness, I just keep putting off ordering my daughter’s graduation pictures. So much, that they expired. As such, I/we do not have her graduations pictures. Depression is no joke.

This sentiment I understand. No questions nor confusion. I'm sorry you don't have pics from D's graduation. Depression certainly takes us (LBS and MLC) over.

It sounds like D21 considering her responses well. After a year, I’d suspect she’s reasonable worked out Dad’s reactions and responses to her conversations. Worked out, and working out, their relationship.

Yup. D is making progress. S is beginning to see H for what's really happening. Making fewer excuses for him. Believing less of what H says. S is more like H and allowed himself to deny what was really happening until more recently. GF is helping him see things now that S is more ready. Hopeful that S won't suppress much longer. Time will tell. If nothing else, S knows he's supported...when he's ready to vent/talk/share/accept.

I was on the phone with Sister yesterday. During the call, I happened to walk past a window and saw H's truck drive down the street. This was new to me. I mentioned it to Sister. A second later, I get a text from H that he put a receipt in the mailbox for a doctor's office visit. Hmm...H has been coupling dropping off the receipt with coming to get things over the last 7 weeks. Last night, he changed approach. H opted to drop off the receipt without forewarning and no suggestion to get clothes.

And this is another reason that I wonder if H thinks D and I are tag-teaming. He told D earlier this month that he won't reach back out to her (due to her lack of response and shown interest). And, now I'm seeing a change in approach to me (due to my lack of response and shown interest?). Notice the question mark after the second set of parentheses. H hasn't told me anything. H purely behaved differently at week 8 of consistent 'need' to get some clothes.

Going to dinner tonight with Sister, niece and D to celebrate cancer-free. Excited! Haircut manicure tomorrow. Massage on Friday. Volunteering on Sunday with niece and catching a MLB game with her. I keep on GALing in ways I never would have if H hadn't left R.

[MamaG]

So, I'm seeing movement through the tunnel again. Last Friday was a big day for H - 18 months post BD1. Would love perspective from this family. I've also included a couple questions within my update.

1. It took 2 weeks from D's text, but low and behold, H told D that he saw a doctor and was prescribed meds. Not sure what H was prescribed nor whether he'll follow through with taking them. Knowing H's replay behaviors, I am unsure how this could play out.
Question: How do anti-depressants impact someone in MLC? Alter the marathon?

2. H got a dog.
Question: I've read (somewhere) that getting a dog is a positive sign as H is opening up to showing love and empathy that had been tucked away. Starting with a safe love, such as a dog, who will return love and not judge him is a peak out of the tunnel. Is this true? Could a dog help him?

Question: Or can getting a dog be seen as another external happiness as he continues through replay?

3. H changed his profile pic on social media - the prior photo has been of him and I for years as he doesn't post often. At a closer look, he removed all posts that were dedicated to me - mostly anniversary wishes. I'm still on his thread but no more dedicated posts.

4. Still no PA - yes, not knowing of one haunts me based on most experiences here. I continue to pray that this doesn't change.

5. Last text to come get things was 8/11. After continuous attempts to 'get some things', H has pulled back.

6. I have been dim/dark for going on 4 months now.

7. There's a BIG charity town event this weekend that I've always volunteered at. 90% of our town and surrounding towns attend this event at some point through the long weekend. H expects that I'll volunteer as I've done for years and I fully expect that H will attend and bring his new dog. It's been months since H and I have interacted and it'll be awkward, I'm sure. I plan to look my best and be having a great time to let him see that I'm living my life without him and have accepted that he wants to move on. Some of this will require the 'fake it till I make it' mentality. I will mostly have to be surprised about the dog.
Question: Am I happily surprised or confused surprised? Thoughts?
Question: Any other suggestions for our run in? Do I engage? Ask how he's doing? Open the door at all?

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Question: How do anti-depressants impact someone in MLC? Alter the marathon?

Antidepressants can ease the feelings of depression and thus lessen the symptoms of depression, not cure the underlying reason or cause for the depression. When one partakes less in the symptoms/behaviours, especially destructive behaviours like drinking, drugs, and such, they may be able to progress through their depression better.

Of course, one needs to realize they are depressed or having some manner of emotional troubles, before they’ll reach out. Or have the reaching out be driven by them. Otherwise they are just going along with, and it would be more “I tried” justification for their narrative.

The low energy wallower crisis type, like your H, would be better suited for antidepressants methinks. A high energy vanisher, as my XW, is very assured that they are doing the right thing and nothing is wrong. They need to, are driven to, believe that. That type would neither reach out nor remain on such an antidepressant regime for long.

However, the crisis still needs to complete. It’s unknown, as each person is different, as to if less brooding would allow better progress or not. Less brooding may allow more running behaviours, or it may allow more inner looking. Hard to predict.

The major caution, IMO, would be thinking the crisis is over due to less symptoms. The MLCer feels better, the LBS sees this external difference, yet it is only a delay in the crisis. Time is always required to progress through their depression. There is no way around that. The marathon may be less destructive, yet it still needs to run its entire course.

Question: I've read (somewhere) that getting a dog is a positive sign as H is opening up to showing love and empathy that had been tucked away. Starting with a safe love, such as a dog, who will return love and not judge him is a peak out of the tunnel. Is this true? Could a dog help him?

Question: Or can getting a dog be seen as another external happiness as he continues through replay?

Like most things in life, or crisis or anything really, it depends.

How H treats the dog; why he got him in the first place; H expectations; H’s acceptance of the animal; and so on.

My XW has gone through a few pets. She got three cats, which didn’t accomplish whatever it was she felt she was looking for. She added two more, then having five felines. Her love and affection lasted about a month, and the cats were relegated to the barn.

She then turned to birds. Two budgies, big cage, stand, the whole nine yards. That likewise lasted only months. XW got rid of them in frustration because the wee birds didn’t fly around the room and land on her finger as in a Disney-like fashion. Her and OM spend days corralling the birds from various corners of the house, until birds and all were finally tossed away.

XW did not want, nor accepted the reality of, the responsibility and care for the living creatures.

Plants, on the other hand, XW has an affinity to. Presently she has around 500, yes that is five hundred, plants in the house. Every single spare flat space has a pot and plant on it. The top of the TV, shelves, cupboards, desks, counters, floors, everywhere. The living room has a path to the couch and chair, the rest of the floor is plants. In one corner is a corn stalk that has reached the ceiling. XW wanted to cut a hole in the ceiling for it to continue growing. The spare bedroom is completely plants. The kids wonder how she waters all of them, as there is no path or free floor space in the room. Speaking of watering, she has a “boss plant” that lets her know when other plants need water. I know, sounds crazy. Yet, the plants are thriving.

Of course, it depends. Perhaps H is open to the responsibility of a pet. Feels a connection. Some empathy. Ah, those hidden details. Time will tell. If I were surmising your H’s hidden reasoning, I’d likely place it on the positive end of the spectrum.

Is it a peek out of the tunnel? Positive forward movement? Likely. Will it last or remain? Unknown. Time will tell. Be careful and cautious about seeing what you would like to see. H’s emotions are still a bag of cats. This moment may just be a lull.

3. H changed his profile pic on social media - the prior photo has been of him and I for years as he doesn't post often. At a closer look, he removed all posts that were dedicated to me - mostly anniversary wishes. I'm still on his thread but no more dedicated posts.

My XW tossed aside me and the kids. She lives with OM. Seven years post BD and her active social media has nothing about OM. Still has our wedding pictures up. MLCers do (and don’t do) all manner of stuff.

4. Still no PA - yes, not knowing of one haunts me based on most experiences here. I continue to pray that this doesn't change.

I empathize.

Now, some might be hard to take advice. What/who do you control? Only you. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions.

Fretting and worry will not stop H, if he is going to.

That which one focuses upon gets larger. Focusing on what might happen will continue to foster the haunting within you.

You’ve prayed your desire in this manner. God knows what you’d like not to happen. Let go. Give H, and his journey, to a higher power.

Pray for H not to not do something, rather to do something. To progress. To find peace. Whatever path that might take. Trust God.

Focus on what you can and do control. Your path.

5. Last text to come get things was 8/11. After continuous attempts to 'get some things', H has pulled back.

Yep. Back and forth. They do ping pong about.

Box his stuff up and set it aside. Out of your way.

6. I have been dim/dark for going on 4 months now.

Good.

How do you feel? Do you have a better handle on your emotions? Less being dragged about? Maybe not being dragged about at all? Sleeping better?

7. There's a BIG charity town event this weekend that I've always volunteered at. 90% of our town and surrounding towns attend this event at some point through the long weekend. H expects that I'll volunteer as I've done for years and I fully expect that H will attend and bring his new dog. It's been months since H and I have interacted and it'll be awkward, I'm sure. I plan to look my best and be having a great time to let him see that I'm living my life without him and have accepted that he wants to move on. Some of this will require the 'fake it till I make it' mentality. I will mostly have to be surprised about the dog.
Question: Am I happily surprised or confused surprised? Thoughts?
Question: Any other suggestions for our run in? Do I engage? Ask how he's doing? Open the door at all?

Yes, do volunteer. Do live and love your life and the events that bring you fulfillment.

I fully expect that H will attend and bring his new dog. It's been months since H and I have interacted and it'll be awkward, I'm sure.

Why? Why will it be awkward?

Expectations! Dial those to zero!

If H doesn’t bring his dog and you expect him to, you’ll wonder why.

You’re preparing and pre-destining that things will be awkward.

Big red stop sign. You control you. Stop those thoughts and worry. Influence/alter those feelings.

Go to the event. Let go H. Be you. Enjoy it.

I plan to look my best and be having have a great time. to let him see that I'm living my life without him and have accepted that he wants to move on. Some of this will require the 'fake it till I make it' mentality.

Yes, look your best. Be your best. Have a great time. For you!

H may not even show up, then what? All your efforts are for not? Your volunteering doesn’t matter? Of course not! Your path is not about H, so don’t make it so.

At times we do act as if to override and influence/steer our emotions and reactions. This is fine and perfectly normal. And you might be surprised at how little you need to fake it.

I will mostly have to be surprised about the dog.
Question: Am I happily surprised or confused surprised? Thoughts?

Why surprised? I’m guessing you heard about the dog from sources you don’t want H to know about. I’d just pet the dog and say “Oh, it’s so cute” and leave it at that.

Happily surprised is fine. Confused surprised is not a good idea. It will project judgement and disapproval of H’s choice. After all, he is free to choose as he will. You are living your life forward and detached. Right?

Question: Any other suggestions for our run in? Do I engage? Ask how he's doing? Open the door at all?

If H attends. Be kind and cordial. As you would be to a bank teller or grocery store cashier.

Let him lead the pace of the conversation, if there is any. I’d keep your questions, and answers, to a minimum. Most definitely - no R talks.

Focus on you. On why you are there. The weekend long BIG charity town and surrounding area event. H is not the reason.

Hope the weekend goes great.

D

[MamaG]

I've been staying busy through the summer months, enjoying a good mix of friends and family. I even completed some repairs and household chores. It's been quite an experience since I began detaching.

My greatest gain has been my spiritual and mental growth. I have opportunity here still but feel that my emotional growth has been lacking. I tell myself that I'm detaching and from the outside in, I am. Behind closed doors, I'm a hot mess more often than I'd like to admit. Folks on this platform bear the brunt of it.

DnJ, I thank you so very much for always bringing calm to my storm. You don't have any idea what it means to me.

Your last response shares a bit more about your sitch. WOW! She really did introduce many pets. And, plants!! So strange (to us). Of course, I found myself trying to make sense of your XWs pets and plants. Wish I knew how to make my brain stop processing this way. Why do I need an explanation? understanding? I don't - logically, I know that I don't. Yet, I brainwaves process that way.

When one partakes less in the symptoms/behaviours, especially destructive behaviours like drinking, drugs, and such, they may be able to progress through their depression better.

Of course, one needs to realize they are depressed or having some manner of emotional troubles, before they’ll reach out. Or have the reaching out be driven by them. Otherwise they are just going along with, and it would be more “I tried” justification for their narrative.

The low energy wallower crisis type, like your H, would be better suited for antidepressants methinks.

H admitted to being depressed even before BD. He could feel the depression and that something was off. H couldn't put his finger on 'what' was off. I now know that this was MLC brewing. I am prepared for H not sticking to the ADs but knowing that he's admitted being depressed, I'm hopeful for his sake that this will work for him to feel less down on himself. Ideally, ADs will require less replay behaviors (weed, alcohol) to suppress the turmoil because as we know his replay behaviors only worsen depression. I don't even know what came first...the depression or his attempts to cure depression with depression-inducing substances. Hope that makes sense?

However, the crisis still needs to complete. It’s unknown, as each person is different, as to if less brooding would allow better progress or not. Less brooding may allow more running behaviours, or it may allow more inner looking. Hard to predict.

The major caution, IMO, would be thinking the crisis is over due to less symptoms. The MLCer feels better, the LBS sees this external difference, yet it is only a delay in the crisis. Time is always required to progress through their depression. There is no way around that. The marathon may be less destructive, yet it still needs to run its entire course.

I totally get your explanation that the crisis still needs to be completed and it's unclear the impact on the marathon length. This is what I expected your response to be. I'll take 'less destructive'.

As for the dog, H lost his dog as kid when she ran into the street. And, as one of his complaints at BD, he was upset that I gave up our first dog and has no recollection that we discussed the decision at length before making a decision together - rewriting of history. This was 25 years ago. I'm beginning to wonder if losing his pet as a kid has something to do with this trauma. Time will tell. Possibly, as you allude, hidden details.

Of course, it depends. Perhaps H is open to the responsibility of a pet. Feels a connection. Some empathy. Ah, those hidden details. Time will tell. If I were surmising your H’s hidden reasoning, I’d likely place it on the positive end of the spectrum.

When you said, "positive end of spectrum" are you surmising that he may be peaking and feeling empathy? Companion to share love? I don't want to misinterpret.

My XW tossed aside me and the kids. She lives with OM. Seven years post BD and her active social media has nothing about OM. Still has our wedding pictures up. MLCers do (and don’t do) all manner of stuff.

I just can't understand...and I know that's the point. They aren't logically thinking. I'm not overthinking the FB pic change. Rather, I brought it up get vets thoughts. Say no more.

That which one focuses upon gets larger. Focusing on what might happen will continue to foster the haunting within you.

Good reminder. I know yet forget so often. TY

How do you feel? Do you have a better handle on your emotions? Less being dragged about? Maybe not being dragged about at all? Sleeping better?

My emotions are no longer in reaction/response to H's actions/comments - well, there also are none coming my way lately. I feel myself having emotional outbursts for different reasons or maybe from different drivers.

I look forward to fewer of these moments. I can see that there has been a subtle change in frequency already.

I admit to myself that which I'm feeling in the moment (Right now, I am sad bc...) and it helps in getting through it. I accept the feelings and I move along.

What gets me is that I miss H's company, jokes, embrace, comfort...etc. and these thoughts slap me in the face all too often. Still.

I am sleeping MUCH better - that's a win.

Having a greater understanding of the process and reading through examples of crazy things MLCers do/don't do has me less surprised when I hear/see some of H's specifics. My questions to this platform sometimes are for confirmation of my thoughts. I don't have as strong emotions in this space.

Fears are still a thing I need to work on. Football season is upon us. H will be occupied with work and football now. Will he ever reach back out? This is the conversation I need to work through....and I am. You've clarified fear in the past. I find myself reminding myself but get stuck.

Thanks for direction on how I respond to H's attendance and interaction this weekend. I also expect to answer the question, "what's going on with you and H" a few times. I know...I know. Expectations. Fears.

I will have a great time with the event - to some degree it's like a HS reunion as everyone congregates at the event. I will laugh and enjoy myself...and all for a good cause.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’m glad to see you completed some repairs, upgrades, and upkeep to the homestead.

My greatest gain has been my spiritual and mental growth. I have opportunity here still but feel that my emotional growth has been lacking. I tell myself that I'm detaching and from the outside in, I am. Behind closed doors, I'm a hot mess more often than I'd like to admit. Folks on this platform bear the brunt of it.

Be gentle on yourself. Like the house upkeep and upgrades it takes time. You are making progress; an excellent thing. Any step, no matter how small, is infinitely further than zero. And all those wee steps accumulate. All journeys are made of many small steps.

Yes, one does get a handle on their mental self first. After all, that’s what we control. Emotions are then influenced through thoughts, actions, and reactions.

It’s perfectly normal to still be a hot mess every once in a while. I’m sure those times are far less than there were. If you look at it, the frequency and amplitude of your emotions have lessened. Right? And likely doesn’t last as long either. Such is grief. Such is the journey.

When you said, "positive end of spectrum" are you surmising that he may be peaking and feeling empathy? Companion to share love? I don't want to misinterpret.

Yes, I see H leaning that way. With what you’ve shared, I see H more caring for and about the dog, and less using the dog.

As for the dog, H lost his dog as kid when she ran into the street. And, as one of his complaints at BD, he was upset that I gave up our first dog and has no recollection that we discussed the decision at length before making a decision together - rewriting of history. This was 25 years ago. I'm beginning to wonder if losing his pet as a kid has something to do with this trauma. Time will tell. Possibly, as you allude, hidden details.

Ah. Interesting.

Losing our first pet is heartbreaking. Normal. Yet heartbreaking. And usually occurs for one in their childhood. Their parents then guiding them through the slew of emotions and pain they experience.

If something went awry when H was a child. Say blamed by a person in authority, or even by himself, for the death of his beloved dog; that could leave quite a wound. Or having little to no guidance on how to grieve and feel that loss would allow unrealized and unrecognized and unreconciled pain(s) and trauma(s) to become buried. Silently buried and festering for years. Until the pain will remain buried no more.

A child has immature coping mechanisms. Trauma and/or lack of guidance/mentoring can derail/stunt their emotional growth. A crisis drags the MLCer back in time, from where and when they need to grow up from.

My emotions are no longer in reaction/response to H's actions/comments - well, there also are none coming my way lately. I feel myself having emotional outbursts for different reasons or maybe from different drivers.

Follow the sting. This is your inner work. Discover you, while H is not the trigger for your feelings. Discover what/why is triggering you. Make peace with it, with you, with your past, with your grief. It’s part of the journey to your acceptance.

I admit to myself that which I'm feeling in the moment (Right now, I am sad bc...) and it helps in getting through it. I accept the feelings and I move along.

Very good.

Feel your feelings and let them wash over you.

What gets me is that I miss H's company, jokes, embrace, comfort...etc. and these thoughts slap me in the face all too often. Still.

Yep.

I found I eventually made peace with it. We had 3 decades together. Her company, jokes, embrace, and such. 30 years! I was that fortunate!

More focusing on what I have than what is lost. Acceptance.

I am sleeping MUCH better - that's a win.

Absolutely! Nice to hear. A good night’s sleep is so beneficial.

Having a greater understanding of the process and reading through examples of crazy things MLCers do/don't do has me less surprised when I hear/see some of H's specifics. My questions to this platform sometimes are for confirmation of my thoughts. I don't have as strong emotions in this space.

MLC is foreign territory. It’s good to hear that H’s behaviours are not as surprising as they once were. We all require a certain level of understanding.

How is/was the weekend event?

D

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Mama,

I can see the progress you're making! I too am so grateful for the support received here - thank you DnJ and everyone for your gentle encouragement.

First of all, I'm glad to hear that your H is getting medication. Depression is real and medication really can help. It may not bring him back, but hopefully it helps him find some relief for his troubles. I think it's a great first step, and I love that he's gotten a dog. The dog will be good for him, I hope. If he can heal, maybe there's hope for your M - if that's what you decide you want.

One of the things that really helped me about 5 years ago when things were bad, and I was feeling sorry for myself was reminding myself that if he chooses to walk away, ignore me, etc is that it's HIS LOSS!!! You are an awesome lady and if he can't/couldn't see that, then that's on him, not you!! You don't feel sorry for yourself, you feel sorry for HIM.

What gets me is that I miss H's company, jokes, embrace, comfort...etc. and these thoughts slap me in the face all too often. Still.

This is hard... Even if you find a new person, you might always miss something about him. I have known my H since I was 12 years old. We have a lot of shared history. It's like that old song "Always Something There to Remind Me." Yep... it's hard. Like experiencing a death. I think that's why we hold on so tightly. It's kind of all that we know, for better or for worse.

But - your detachment is exactly the right thing to be doing. Time to let go of his drama, stand tall, move forward and focus on your own enjoyment.

Now I need to follow my own advice!

[RegretfulLA]

Time.

From the front end it is near impossible to distinguish. A crisis being a transition gone very much into the weeds.

Basically, a crisis is just worse all around. A crisis lasts longer. Much longer. And progresses glacially slow.

A crisis is consuming. A MLCer is lost. A very lost soul.

Two major hallmarks of a midlife crisis are depression and confusion. The exhibited running behaviour is the desperate person trying to get away from their unrealized unexplained inner torment.

Desperate! Desperate people do desperate things.

Hurt! Hurt people, hurt people.

A crisis is truly horrible. Emotions and torment cranked to eleven, and even passed that.

We all go through various life stages. The midlife transition is a time of recollection, recognizing, reconciling, life’s accolades and regrets; achievements and failures; and such. A transition itself can be tumultuous full of disorder and chaos or more smooth depending upon the individuals past, personality, ability to accept, and a host of other variables. My own transition was rather smooth methinks.

Exiting into the next stage of life can take various paths too, depending upon one’s life to that point.

Myself, I found, I am, happy with my past marriage, my kids, my career, my life. Such leads to a time of peace and contentment, IMHO. I’ve accumulated very few regrets over my years.

Some exit or find their golden years less golden. Such an exit being more of resigned to their lot in life, rather than looking forward to it. We’ve all seen those grumpy people grumbling away. Eyes and outlook more downcast than upward and forward looking.

Midlife, like all transitions, is about acceptance. It’s a loss. One must grieve it. One must find their acceptance with it. No one gets a do-over here, and those that cannot find peace with that, get caught and tangled in the transition. Desperately trying to relive what they feel is their lost youth/life. A bad transition may buy the red sport car, a horrible crisis will burn down their entire life.

Each is seeking their path towards acceptance.

Time.

A MLT builds upon one’s successful life stages thus far. A MLC is seeded from long ago unknown trauma(s). A lot more growing up to do in a crisis.

Time.

Transitions take time.

A crisis takes much more time. And some never exit.

This is gold - is there a way to pin this for future MLC spouses? It really explains so much about what a MLC is all about - it's so hard to understand for those of us on the other side.

[MamaG]

Hello all!
The weekend was great in so many ways. I volunteered my heart out with people I've known my entire life and loved every minute of it. Amazing how volunteering can be fun! It was both tiring and rewarding. Only once was I asked where H was. All others, despite knowing H has moved out were super respectful and didn't ask. People feel badly for me and know I've had a rough year both medically and R wise. I can feel the empathy and concern, but definitely don't sulk in the attention - it's just not my style.

You were right! H never stopped by. He avoided and I imagine he had a tough weekend. It is what it is.

As you've recommended, I've changed my prayers - I pray for his peace and progress. H is in God's hands and I trust He will care for both our hearts.

I found I eventually made peace with it. We had 3 decades together. Her company, jokes, embrace, and such. 30 years! I was that fortunate!

More focusing on what I have than what is lost. Acceptance.

I really like this! I had 32 years with H and all these warm benefits. We shared many moments, kids, weekends, vacations, laughs, etc. That is a gift to hold regardless of the future. No need to regret nor fret.

We have a couple peach trees that some years don't produce crop. But, I can tell you that when there is crop, there is an abundance. I spent some time cleaning up peaches this afternoon. Subtle winds force the peaches to fall off the branches and they get bruised. Certainly, the hundreds (potentially near a thousand) peaches on one tree alone is way more than any human to consume even after sharing. I may end up with some bears tonight as I threw so many peaches into the woods that treated me to poison ivy this summer. Those peaches should be enjoyed by someone!

I applied for a new job - one with less responsibility and no direct reports. Based on how things are shaping up, I'll likely get an offer next week and I look forward to a new adventure. This should help me with my healing, finding time for poochies and resolving the household tasks that continue to surface. I'm looking for less stress and a slower pace to the everyday craze.

I'm taking some time off between the jobs to allow for some repairs, medical appts and a visit with S. Looking forward to next week.

And bc of medical leave this year (and staying employed by the same company), I have 6 weeks of vacation time to use before year end. It may be difficult to use it all, but I'll certainly give it a try!

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’m glad the weekend went well. Sounds like it was very fulfilling.

You and I could trade. I’ve got a pile of apples on my trees. I did have loads of nectarines as well, however it seems squirrels really like them. They disappeared right off the branches, even up high, higher than a deer would reach. And nothing left on the ground either. My mom, kids, and I did get a quite a few feeds of the yummy fruit. The pears were a bust this year.

Having six weeks of vacation to use up before year end is a good problem to have. lol. I was in that boat as well. 33 years career. Now, everyday is a vacation. Hmmm, that’s an even better problem to have. Haha.

Have a great visit with son and hope the appointments go well.

D

[MamaG]

DnJ, I would happily share peaches...and apples would be a refreshing change! If only...

I've enjoyed all things with peaches over the last couple weeks - from cakes to oatmeal, you name it, I'm trying it. I've shared with family and with the bears. I'm even making dog treats with peaches this week. Let's see what poochies think. I may be all peached out soon.

Unfortunately, the bears were attracted by the peaches and adventured into the bird feeder. Had a mess to clean this morning.

I congratulate you to have retired - earned position, I'm sure!

I'm mentally not ready and for this reason, am hesitant to earmark weeks to take off and eat the 6 weeks. I'm still overwhelmed by feelings of loneliness. Often. Too often. And, the idea of not having any demands from the job would mentally not work in my favor. I may end up giving time back this year! We'll see.

Have been spending a lot of time with mom over the last year and am finding myself getting triggered by some of her communication methods. This has always been her way, but I brushed it off as i didn't see as much of her prior to BD2.

Two come to the surface most and I wonder if this is the childhood trauma that I need to heal. And, if it is, how do I heal from this?
1. Mom tries to 'control' my decisions by influencing and nudging - I often gave in to what she wanted and am beginning to push back. It's small stuff like, "Stay for dinner. Oh come on, you don't have anything else going on and you're already here...." Yes, I could stay but now that I'm aware of the tactic, I'm more inclined to not stay. I feel wrong but am standing my ground a bit more out of principle.
2. Mom repeats herself a lot. In convo last night, I mentioned that I'm not working this week. Apparently, I didn't tell her. I acknowledged that I may not have told her when she said it the first time. We went on with convo where I told her what I did for the day. At the next pause, she reminded me that she didn't know I was on vaca and made me feel like she didn't listen to any of my day's activities. I ignored the second one and kept talking and she AGAIN reminded me that "It's ok that I didn't tell her but she didn't know I was on vaca. That's great. We all need a break."

I'm considering ADs myself. Filled the script and have just held onto it. I'm a couple weeks shy of BD2 when everything really hit the fan and hasn't been the same. I'm having a hard time. Logically, I know it's just another day. Emotionally, I'm still in disbelief that what I looked forward to in 'our' future was yanked and I continue to mourn the future's loss. Recognizing the emotional roots, I compose myself quicker but cycle quicker too. It's been rough talking myself into clarity. It doesn't help that D and I have not heard from H in the longest stretch yet. A month for me (other than H telling me of the receipt in mailbox) and 2 weeks for D.

I question my decision to not respond to his texts. Yes, again I question because it's counterintuitive and hard to not know how he's doing or what he's doing. I still don't know that he has a dog!

As an avoidant, it may have taken a lot for him to reach out to me at all. Still, breadcrumbs I do not want. A 'friend', I do not want. My inner voice reminds me that he's struggling too and that it's mental illness. H thinks of me but is struggling.

Remember, emotional side of me has been winning out. Logic needs to strengthen. Soon.

This thread is titled, "Detaching & setting boundaries from clingy boomerang". How strange that as I type this, I don't need to detach (H is not reaching out); I don't need to set boundaries (H is not reaching out); H isn't even a clingy boomerang anymore.

On the GALing front, I am playing cards on Monday nights as part of a league. Last night was the first night and we won 3 of 5 games. Still got it lol. Looking forward to this week's tasks and accomplishments...and visit with S on Friday.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I'm mentally not ready and for this reason, am hesitant to earmark weeks to take off and eat the 6 weeks. I'm still overwhelmed by feelings of loneliness. Often. Too often. And, the idea of not having any demands from the job would mentally not work in my favor. I may end up giving time back this year! We'll see.

I do remember that feeling of overwhelming loneliness. And yes, it was often. Grief/depression takes as long as it takes.

Being busy does help, and yes work is a good source of routine and tasks. Building our new world amongst the ruin.

We let go bargaining once we emotionally exhaust all efforts to prop the old normal. Depression heralds, and comes from, the realization of our loss and that the old normal is gone. Now, we delve into the dark depression of our loss.

It’s mostly a subconscious process. Emotional understanding. Acceptance. As emotions are born, live, and die within a realm outside of intellect and direction conscious control. Emotions rise and fall as one traverses their path.

The conscious part is one keeping busy, maintaining their health, allowing time to consciously think about their situation, and also not dwelling upon it. To keep moving forward. To have faith.

I'm a couple weeks shy of BD2 when everything really hit the fan and hasn't been the same. I'm having a hard time. Logically, I know it's just another day. Emotionally, I'm still in disbelief that what I looked forward to in 'our' future was yanked and I continue to mourn the future's loss. Recognizing the emotional roots, I compose myself quicker but cycle quicker too. It's been rough talking myself into clarity.

Oddly, we understand, mentally, intellectually, rather quickly. Yet still, that does not, cannot, force our emotions (heart) to comply. We know we will be alright, heck we are living it (finances, custody, accommodations, food on the table, meaningful and successful employment, etc.), and it still takes a while to feel “alright”.

You are doing perfectly fine by the way. (((Hugs)))

Remember, emotional side of me has been winning out. Logic needs to strengthen. Soon.

It’s not about vanquishing your emotional side. Nor one side winning and therefore the other side losing. Both sides are winning. Actually four sides/paths: physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. Like four lane on our life’s highway. All four paths win/grow/evolve. It just feels differently (for a while).

Once all four cars are travelling their individual paths at the same speed and direction, basically side by side - presently that emotional car is zooming around a lot more than the others - there is peace and contentment. Understanding, compassion, acceptance. Which turn out to be more headings than destinations, as life is more about the journey than the destination.

Have been spending a lot of time with mom over the last year and am finding myself getting triggered by some of her communication methods. This has always been her way, but I brushed it off as i didn't see as much of her prior to BD2.

Two come to the surface most and I wonder if this is the childhood trauma that I need to heal. And, if it is, how do I heal from this?

It is reasonable to feel some clashing with your Mom over stuff. Especially considering the current grief and such. Ensure you aren’t projecting/blaming her for your feelings.

I’ve seen much more of my Mom over these past few years. We have many meals together, watch shows, and even gone on vacations together. Yet, there are times of feeling a clash. For example, yesterday I had a doctor appointment in the city. Driving around, parking, traffic, etc. I got pretty frustrated by it all. Mom and I had plans for supper and watching our current show. I felt frustrated with her, with what she was saying and doing. Nothing out of the ordinary. It was me, how I felt.

Now seeing such feelings, and not acting upon them, are two different things. I think I did pretty well. Let my feelings be, while I continued on with things. The night went pleasantly enough.

Today, emotions have fleeted. I feel fine. It was not my Mom’s fault, nor anything she was doing. It was my frustration. And it coloured how I was seeing things. Coloured, not controlled.

1. Mom tries to 'control' my decisions by influencing and nudging - I often gave in to what she wanted and am beginning to push back. It's small stuff like, "Stay for dinner. Oh come on, you don't have anything else going on and you're already here...." Yes, I could stay but now that I'm aware of the tactic, I'm more inclined to not stay. I feel wrong but am standing my ground a bit more out of principle.

Mom doesn’t control your decision. She tries to influence and nudge it.

When you secede your control, give in, you feel bad. It’s your control - own it. If you have something going on, plans, whatever, and do not wish to stay for supper, then don’t. If you don’t have plans. If it’s just on principle…why? Dig and find out.

How about: “Sure Mom, I’d love to stay. And tomorrow we’ll have supper at my house.”

2. Mom repeats herself a lot. In convo last night, I mentioned that I'm not working this week. Apparently, I didn't tell her. I acknowledged that I may not have told her when she said it the first time. We went on with convo where I told her what I did for the day. At the next pause, she reminded me that she didn't know I was on vaca and made me feel like she didn't listen to any of my day's activities. I ignored the second one and kept talking and she AGAIN reminded me that "It's ok that I didn't tell her but she didn't know I was on vaca. That's great. We all need a break."

Oh my yes. My Mom “forgot” many things. I got frustrated and angry at not being heard or listened to.

Turns out she is hard of hearing. She didn’t hear, not didn’t listen. And like everyone Mom has denial as well, and frustration at having to ask people to repeat stuff.

Along with that, she is old. And yes, she actually does forget too.

It took me some time and effort to find acceptance and peace with that. Mom (and Dad) getting old and the normal ailments that age brings. Really helped when I figured out it wasn’t their choice. lol.

It’s not easy. And there are still frustrating times. Yet, Mom and Dad are here. And I am blessed. So, I let my feelings flit and embrace better. Grateful for Mom being here to frustrate me. Haha.

Be better, not bitter.

It’s on my signature line, along with forgiveness. Tenets I live by, and at times, renew effort towards.

Anyhow, just some thoughts and feedback.

One other idea for you to consider: Go on a vacation/trip with Mom. You’ve got lots of vacation time. Helps with the loneliness, and that new world one is crafting. A few days maybe, not six weeks. Or maybe a few day trips.



What card game(s) are you playing in your league? Bridge?

Have a great day.

D

[MamaG]

Hello everyone!

It’s mostly a subconscious process. Emotional understanding. Acceptance. As emotions are born, live, and die within a realm outside of intellect and direction conscious control. Emotions rise and fall as one traverses their path.

The conscious part is one keeping busy, maintaining their health, allowing time to consciously think about their situation, and also not dwelling upon it. To keep moving forward. To have faith.

Yup. This resonates. Hadn't seen it in this exact light, but I feel it.

It is reasonable to feel some clashing with your Mom over stuff. Especially considering the current grief and such. Ensure you aren’t projecting/blaming her for your feelings.

Wow! So, I'm still angry. Not angry at mom, but angry. Are you suggesting that perhaps in my anger, I'm not receiving her offer to stay for dinner as just her offer for a joint dinner? Rather, I'm hearing that she's trying to control me? And, as a result, I control the situation by not staying? Ouch, this subconscious can be ugly!!

You asked why...I have sat on this and only come up with a surface answer. I'm not sure that this is it. Still pondering...

Actually four sides/paths: physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. Like four lane on our life’s highway. All four paths win/grow/evolve. It just feels differently (for a while).

PIES, yes PIES. I like the 4 lane highway visual. TY.

Grateful for Mom being here to frustrate me. Haha.

Be better, not bitter.

Trying. I, too am grateful for both mom and dad. They are both wonderful people. Aging. Yes, very much so. I cherish the moments and believe that part of the season I'm in is intended for me to spend more time with both. God works in mysterious ways. He may be saving me from guilt (for not making memories) I'd carry after they pass. H and I were pretty content with each other's company and didn't choose to spend time with others all that often. Is this God's way of saving me from myself?

One other idea for you to consider: Go on a vacation/trip with Mom. You’ve got lots of vacation time. Helps with the loneliness, and that new world one is crafting. A few days maybe, not six weeks. Or maybe a few day trips.

Mom and I plan trips 2x a month. Overnights aren't possible as dad can't be left alone for too long. Mom is his caretaker. If he could join us, he would.

Mom accompanied me to the big city for visit with S on Friday. It was so wonderful to spend time with both of them. We had lunch and indulged. And, despite being stuffed, we each ordered a dessert. We still laugh at how she left her steak tips but ate every last bit of dessert. Wonderful memories for us to cherish. Glad you're doing the same. Mom (and dad) need us just as much as we need them. A forever relationship that we're both blessed with.

What card game(s) are you playing in your league? Bridge?

Playing pitch - didn't mention it as I don't know if it is a widely known game. Looking forward to another match up tonight. But first, a visit with my nephew at his University. He invited me last week and I am excited.

Still no word from hubby. Hope he's self-reflecting and healing.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Pitch. I’ve never played it. I had to look it up. Looks good. Lots of variations. I’m going to give it a go next time I got some folks sitting around the table.

Wow! So, I'm still angry. Not angry at mom, but angry. Are you suggesting that perhaps in my anger, I'm not receiving her offer to stay for dinner as just her offer for a joint dinner? Rather, I'm hearing that she's trying to control me? And, as a result, I control the situation by not staying? Ouch, this subconscious can be ugly!!

You asked why...I have sat on this and only come up with a surface answer. I'm not sure that this is it. Still pondering...

Perhaps you are reacting in the moment. Ponder the situation, outside of it, when calm and still. When more in your intellectual/logical car. Do you arrive at a different outcome/want?

This can help uncover the why of things. With knowing your logical reasoned path, you can follow it next time, regardless of temporary feelings/pressures. Those feelings are still valid and all, just not controlling/highjacking your path/direction.

Trying Doing. I, too am grateful for both mom and dad. They are both wonderful people. Aging. Yes, very much so. I cherish the moments and believe that part of the season I'm in is intended for me to spend more time with both. God works in mysterious ways. He may be saving me from guilt (for not making memories) I'd carry after they pass. H and I were pretty content with each other's company and didn't choose to spend time with others all that often. Is this God's way of saving me from myself?

Doing. Instead of trying methinks.

I too find that the single life allows more time to invest with others. Another piece of that silver lining.

Time is one’s most precious commodity. Yes, less guilt and regret. Being sincere and genuine. Letting folks know how much they mean to you, while you have the opportunity.

she left her steak tips but ate every last bit of dessert.

lol!

Absolutely. Can always find room for dessert.

D

[RegretfulLA]

Hey Mama!

Boy I wish I could have some of your peaches! I'm a jam maker myself - the curse and blessing of many fruit trees! We don't have bears or deer here, but I do have squirrels, possums and raccoons aplenty. Squirrels ate most of my figs this year. Varmints!

My mom triggers me too - yes, she forget things, and life just gets harder as we age. Hard to appreciate/understand that sometimes. By inviting you for dinner, maybe she just wants to spend time with you. That I can understand. Hard not to fall into those same patterns as we did when we were younger. I just try to remember that my parents won't be around forever when I get frustrated with them.

I would recommend that you try the AD's - they take the edge off and may help you get through a hard time. I took them for a while and they do help. Especially if you're changing jobs - you're going through a lot right now. You're a strong lady but the medication will help you cope with all of this change.

I know you said you're right on the anniversary of BD, but look at how far you have come. You're living, you're moving forward, YOU ARE A SURVIVOR!, and you're trying/learning new things. All without H. And you're doing the work to find you again. It's not easy sometimes, but there's no way around but through. Let's continue to support each other!

[MamaG]

Hello everyone!

Started my simpler job and expect an easy ride through YE. People are great. Senior dogs aren't enjoying it as I'm in the office more than I used to be which means quieter days for them.

Dog1 is vibrant and the discharge from his glands seems to be better than it was this summer. Not cleared, but better. His arthritis and various lumps aren't stopping him just yet!
Dog2's eyesight is progressively worse and thankfully he's only 11 pounds as I've been carrying him down staircases. Stairs are officially out of the question - perhaps it's depth perception that's off in addition to other eyesight issues he's faced. Actually, he's good with going up the stairs.

I've been out with several friend groups and done some catching up over delicious meals. One of the dinners provided for both laughter and tears. Apparently, it's not just dogs who are getting older and facing health concerns. Unbeknownst to us, we have all been going to the big city for different health issues since we last dined in Dec. We agreed to get together more often.

As for Pitch, Brother made some crazy decisions last week and I followed him up with crazy decisions this week. We're both laughing at our thought processes and decisions. It's been fun. Thankfully, neither of us is banking on the big payout. LOL

We're going on 7 weeks since H has needed his belongings. H has gone dormant. Nothing! I know it isn't recommended that we stage watch but certainly this is a change. Didn't attend the large volunteering event over Labor day weekend. A dog, antidepressants - neither of which I've been made aware of. And silent. No outreaches at all. What do we deduct? Could he be in depression/withdrawal?

Also, SIL (H's sister) sent an invite through a group text that included H, me and our kids to an event for nephew. I reorganized my schedule to ensure I could attend and then responded via text "Just changed my plans. I'll be there." H hasn't responded in true avoidant fashion. Not sure if he plans on attending but this would be the first family event we would attend since BD2 when family was made aware of his unhappiness...and I haven't seen him in months as I've detached for over 4 months.

And now I question if that was the right decision. With this being his blood family, should I have taken a back seat? Asked him if he would want me to attend?

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

And now I question if that was the right decision. With this being his blood family, should I have taken a back seat? Asked him if he would want me to attend?

Don’t fret over it.

SIL invited you. (Along with the kids and H.) It’s not up to H if you can attend or not.

It can be tricky/difficult with “family related by marriage”. Post divorce is especially so, as one is no longer related. Some aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews relationships remain and others fade. If it gets to that point (divorced), time will tell. For me, I have mostly no contact with any of XW’s blood family. Only one of her cousins and I still exchange Christmas cards and pictures, though it’s likely to keep the door open to my kids as XW pretty much has nothing to do with the kids nor her family.

[H] Didn't attend the large volunteering event over Labor day weekend. A dog, antidepressants - neither of which I've been made aware of. And silent. No outreaches at all. What do we deduct? Could he be in depression/withdrawal?

Possibly.

I suspect H is starting to look inward. Maybe even has been for a while. What direction his journey will go is unknown. Time will tell.

Like you said, stage watching is not all that helpful. (Perfectly normal, just not too helpful. ) And MLCer’s are embroiled in running for a long time.

True, there has been a change in H’s outward behaviours. Let him be, and keep moving forward. And keep living and loving life.

It’s perfectly fine to have hope, just keep the expectations at zero.

I’ve not had opportunity to try Pitch yet. I’m considering forming a card playing group.

Have a great Sunday. I’m going to paint another window before the snow starts flying around here. lol.

D

[MamaG]

Hi DnJ!

I’m going to paint another window before the snow starts flying around here.

Did you use the 's' word? Goodness, that's early for me to hear such a word. Did you end up with accumulation? Do you have heavy winters? I don't expect any until Dec at the earliest.

I'm not sure that I knew you were painting windows. I assume your home's windows...on the inside since it's snowing. Projects are never ending.

We play pitch again tonight. Let's see how we do. If nothing else, it's a nice night out that we both look forward to. Give it a try and lmk what you think. I've been playing for many years so it comes easy at this point and can help you with strategies.

It can be tricky/difficult with “family related by marriage”. Post divorce is especially so, as one is no longer related. Some aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews relationships remain and others fade. If it gets to that point (divorced), time will tell.

Divorce is not common in our families so this will be interesting. For now, while I'm not close with most of his family, we celebrate EVERYTHING so I'll likely continue to be invited to bigger events. Not holidays so much as graduations, etc. I've already been told that I'm invited to our flower girl's wedding next year (his family). H's family hasn't seen much of H but they definitely think he's nuts to leave me and they are concerned with changes he's visibly made. Still, I recognize they can drop me at any point...especially if an AP is introduced. (No one knows about any AP - let's keep it that way.)

Knowing what I know about MLC, I'm leaning towards H may continue his avoidance behaviors and not attend at all. If I ask him to pick me up, I suspect he'd be open to it and would attend - much like taking me to dr appts. That doesn't make it the right idea. What are your thoughts? While I've considered texting H about going together (to ease his discomfort), I don't want to make the wrong move and therefore I haven't reached out. D has already decided that she won't attend which bums me out. I'm really seeing lots of avoidance behaviors in D. Concerning for sure.

And MLCer’s are embroiled in running for a long time.

I would even guess that H's ego and stubbornness will keep him away longer than he'd like. This here is what I'd like to not be true. H is a brilliant man - I wouldn't just say that - and I have all the confidence that he'll look inward and to your point, may have already begun to. That doesn't mean that he's willing to bruise his ego and return home. In time, it may have to be me who breaks the ice with SMART contact. For now, I'm holding out.

Spent the better part of the weekend with D and just learned that she is not feeling well - basically was asked to leave class today due to a cough. I took the day off tomorrow and will be playing nurse for my D. D requested soup, OJ and comforts of home. I'll be making the trip to the university tomorrow. Let's hope I don't come down with something.

D, BF, S and GF are coming for a chili charcuterie board lunch on Sunday - looking forward to the 5 of us. H isn't invited. Oh well.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’m painting the outside trim of the windows. Working at getting finished before the weather turns.

I got the first coat of paint on. The next day the wind picked up! The following day even stronger winds; gusts 90km+. Far too windy to be on an extension ladder.

The particular window I’m working on is a second floor one. So with ladder leaning on the stone sill, I’m standing fifteen feet in the air tip-toed on the third rung from the top to reach the high part. Nothing to hang onto either. So, I put it off for a calmer day.

Well, the winds knocks down a tree across the driveway, and rips down a few in the yard. More work. Although less weather dependent.

Next day I wake up to 2C (35F). Brrrrr. Too cold for painting. Now I’m in goldilocks-land to get the painting finished.

Next day, things brighten up. 16C, breezy, from the west so house is blocking the winds. I get the second coat on. The other windows can wait until next year.

Snow, sometimes falls early October. November is more average. The winter temperature hits its lows in January/February, -30C/-40C. Even lower during the nasty storms.

The ground is usually frozen by the end of October. Many Halloween costumes are worn overtop snowsuits. lol.

As for accumulation. Feet of snow. Plenty of feet. The big storms dump/blow enough snow to bury everything. It is pretty common for a storm to drop a foot or so of snow and the wind to pile that up into some huge drifts. I’ve woken up to five feet pile into the driveway overnight. Takes a while to clear that!

So, with winter’s impending arrival, I’m turning my attention back to indoor projects. Outdoor-wise, I’ve got a final grass mowing likely and to clean up those aforementioned trees. And to get the vehicles winter-ready.

Knowing what I know about MLC, I'm leaning towards H may continue his avoidance behaviors and not attend at all. If I ask him to pick me up, I suspect he'd be open to it and would attend - much like taking me to dr appts. That doesn't make it the right idea. What are your thoughts? While I've considered texting H about going together (to ease his discomfort), I don't want to make the wrong move and therefore I haven't reached out. D has already decided that she won't attend which bums me out. I'm really seeing lots of avoidance behaviors in D. Concerning for sure.

My thoughts.

You didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him.

You may be correct. H might attend with you, if you invited him along. However, he is a mess. Time and space. He needs to work through his issues. And that is a glacially slow process.

H has gone radio silent. Allow him his path/journey.

Daughter’s present time avoidance is more “normal”. Hopeful she transits it timely.

I would even guess that H's ego and stubbornness will keep him away longer than he'd like. This here is what I'd like to not be true. H is a brilliant man - I wouldn't just say that - and I have all the confidence that he'll look inward and to your point, may have already begun to. That doesn't mean that he's willing to bruise his ego and return home.

Bingo!

Hitting rock bottom is necessary. And there areso many distractions, internal and external, to allow folks to continue as they are.

Ego, pride, stubbornness. Lots to swallow. It takes a humbleness to admit, sincerely admit, to one’s pain and torment. Admit and submit. MLCer’s run from that. Fight that. And fighting begets fighting.

In time, it may have to be me who breaks the ice with SMART contact. For now, I'm holding out.

I’m weeks away from seven year anniversary from BD (Thanksgiving). XW and I have not had really any contact for those years.

Two (three?) years ago, a son’s wedding, bridal shower, social, etc; this year another son’s wedding announcement and social, etc. These events have placed XW and I in the same room/place/location a few times. Two years ago, I broke the ice with her. She did opened up and equated the kids’ success and happiness with/due to my influence and example. I told her she was an awesome Mom and raised awesome kids. This year, I let her lead. Her and I were in the same yard site over the weekend, in a dance hall, and she said nothing. Didn’t speak to two of the boys, spoke a bit to daughter, and a bit to the happily engaged couple. Didn’t engage much with others. And no dancing.

My weekend was different. I spoke and interacted with lots of people. Danced with lots of people. Helped with the fireworks, setting up the hall, cleaning up the hall, and so on. It was a good time! Good food, good people!

XW has to walk her path.

H has to walk his path.

Look at it less of holding out, and more of letting go. Allowing. Allowing H his choices. You living/loving your life.

Hope yesterday’s university trip went well. A bowl of hot soup, and hugs from Mom. I’m sure D felt good with that!

D

[MamaG]

DnJ- I will read through your update in due time, but I have some news that I’d love your help with.

I know you’ve been along for the ride and you know this information but thought I’d recap before I begged for help

It’s been 20 months since BD. After 15 months, I stopped responding to his texts -5 months ago. Basically went no contact which was a shift since we had been talking a couple times a week. With adult children and living separately, it just made sense to stop playing part time wife and so I could heal.

There has been limited monstering since I’ve gone no contact (actually limited Monster for 15 months). And lots of touch and goes that I’ve not responded to via text.

5 months of no contact generated a text from him today. “Can we talk this Saturday?”

Pit in my stomach. Unsure what he is looking to cover. No idea what he did all summer. I don’t snoop to know of any AP. Regardless, I sit here trying to figure out how to answer. Timid. Unsettled.

Help. Do I engage in convo through text or just respond to question? It’s been so long.

[DnJ]

Hi MG

I'm taking a break from cutting trees. Kind of thirsty.

Sat down for a drink and saw your post.


I'd respond in the same manner H reached out, I'm guessing text: "Sure. Let's meet at xxx restaurant at 3:00pm."


You have the door open a crack, and haven't firmly shut it yet. I'd not meet at home, choosing neutral ground. Also, you can just get up and leave if things go really sideways. And you're not inviting H to your home.


Some tips for the meet up (no particular order):

- Order a tea. I think you enjoy tea, personally I do not, I'd have a soft drink and maybe some fries. Its a mid-afternoon snack, with no expectations.

- No expectations. Keep those at zero. Who knows why H wants to talk. Go and find out.

- You don't have to answer anything. Remember, you didn't call/propose this meeting. Therefore you cannot be expected to have answers at the ready. You do not have any idea of the subject(s) or topic(s) H wishes to discuss.

- Utilize "I am listening." "I'll have to think about that before I can answer that." And such.

- Let H lead. You didn't call this meeting. Let H bring forward what he wishes to talk about. The less you say, the more you'll say. Don't fret over pauses in the conversation.

- Be the first to leave. When things are winding down (and you are finished your fries), thank H (if appropriate) and get up and leave.

- Go dutch. Pay your bill. Let H pay his.

- Be detached. Leave your emotions at home. You can cry, scream, punch, whatever, later.

- Do not agree to anything. Again, you need time to think about things. (And if it is business related, you will be running it passed your lawyer.)

- Know your boundaries. At a restaurant things are less likely to get boundary-worthy. Still, know what predetermined rational actions you take to unwanted disrespectful behavior and/or words. (No expectations of H stepping over such lines. Just being aware is all.)



Remember, H needs to walk his path. Allow him to. However, not at you health - mental, emotional, financial, or otherwise.

Stay strong my dear. You got this!

D

[MamaG]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The solid and sound direction will allow me to sleep tonight. And now I think about where I can get myself a drink and fries. thanks for holding my hand again

[MamaG]

Happy Thursday!

Simply having a plan to approach text and Sat, I felt better putting my head down last night. It's eye opening to me how H still has a hold of my emotions. It was immediate panic, relief (H finally reached out), confusion (why now?), fear (can I keep my cool until I leave 'talk'), excitement (will he propose coming home?), anxiety (is this when H reinforces that he's still leaning towards divorce).....and on and on. In the moment, I couldn't rationally think through 'plan' on my own. This....this is what I need to work on. Sigh.

Sat will likely consume me in thought until Saturday comes. I'm not even sure Sat will happen. H recommended 'talk' in August and then didn't show up to the house. I didn't question nor reach out to hound. Perhaps he expected that I would. My 180s feel great (to me) but as I reflect, I can't imagine what his mind is deducting in moments of clarity.

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific?

I opted to not suggest a place/time bc I don't want to be 'stood up' and waste my time. If H doesn't reach back out between now and Sat, I will stay home and prep for Sunday family dinner. No harm, no foul. Again, I won't follow-up. Will just return to no contact. Sigh

I still haven't heard back from H (and may not) but suspect that H is expecting to meet at the house. I'll need to change that idea...restaurant certainly feels better. H won't decide when to leave convo (well, I suppose he still could in the midst of avoidance); I will. It feels good to have taken back control of myself.

Did some thinking about the 'why now?'. Perhaps going to Nephew's event on 10/14 has him uncertain about how I'll behave with his family? The townees? Fear - H's fears continue? We'll see.

Hitting rock bottom is necessary. And there areso many distractions, internal and external, to allow folks to continue as they are.

Ego, pride, stubbornness. Lots to swallow. It takes a humbleness to admit, sincerely admit, to one’s pain and torment. Admit and submit. MLCer’s run from that. Fight that. And fighting begets fighting.

I'd like to meet up simply so that I can listen to where H's head/heart are. Still, I don't expect that I will learn much. If the past repeats itself, H will talk about work and what H has done all summer (share about dog? AD?). I genuinely see this as another temp check. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised but have no expectations. I love that I've learned this - no expectations! I'll hope.

H is both humble and has an ego. It's so hard to explain and even wrap my head around it. I remember how arrogant H was when we met. I was so unattracted to the arrogance and H stopped showing up as an arrogant person - never gave it much thought. I re-met arrogant H at BD. Let's see how he shows up....

Funny how just earlier this week we talked about H having turned inward. Hope to see some of this.

My weekend was different. I spoke and interacted with lots of people. Danced with lots of people. Helped with the fireworks, setting up the hall, cleaning up the hall, and so on. It was a good time! Good food, good people!

Yup! I'm sure XW noticed. Of course, that's not why you enjoyed yourself. She must wonder what you're doing different to be happy....as she continues to seek happy. Good for you! Laugh and love. Life is just too short.

Snow, sometimes falls early October. November is more average. The winter temperature hits its lows in January/February, -30C/-40C. Even lower during the nasty storms.

The ground is usually frozen by the end of October. Many Halloween costumes are worn overtop snowsuits. lol.

As for accumulation. Feet of snow. Plenty of feet. The big storms dump/blow enough snow to bury everything. It is pretty common for a storm to drop a foot or so of snow and the wind to pile that up into some huge drifts. I’ve woken up to five feet pile into the driveway overnight. Takes a while to clear that!

Woah - that's colder than I would enjoy. I'm cold at 15C. Perhaps I need some meat on these bones.

I continue to dedicate an hour or so each afternoon to trim bushes before our winter hits. For what it's worth, I'm learning that my winter definition sounds more like your summer temps. lol
I have gained appreciation for H and what he'd maintain in our yard in 2 or 3 afternoons. H would cover more ground each time. Physically, I need to spread it out more. Either way, it's getting done! I'm determined.

MG

[MamaG]

On 10/2:

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific?

Radio silence until 10/5:
H: Today might not be good
MG: No problem. Thanks for letting me know.
H: I'm hoping tomorrow but I might be going with X (a guy friend since HS) to Y town. I should find out today.
MG: I've got plans all day tomorrow. If today works, give me a call. Otherwise maybe another day.
H: Oh ok. I'll let you know

Hours later:
H: Today not going to work. Maybe during the week?

Radio silence....

Observations:
10/2 text - it's been a while since H referred to he and I as "we"
10/5's texts:
- expose his confusion and inner conflict "might not be good", "I'm hoping tomorrow but...", "Maybe during the week?"
- fear/avoidance (had plans with me but broke them; could make plans for next day but isn't sure if he has plans already)
- relieved that this weekend won't require him to face fears - "Oh ok."

I tried to keep the door open for future outreaches - providing kindness and no pressure. Would you agree?

I'm doing some reading and see H's actions as behavioral cycles that require a boundary. Could we be back to setting boundaries as this thread is titled? LOL

For 2.5 weeks, H asked how I was recovering until I told him I was 100% - May
For 1 week, H offered 'acts of service' at the house and I declined - June
For 7 weeks, H asked to come by the house to get belongings until I stopped responding to his texts - July/Aug
For 7 weeks, H stopped texting - Aug/Sept
H asked to 'talk' - once in early Aug and again this week (2 months later)

You all know that I don't ever really know how to behave / respond to H. So here I sit wondering if these behavioral cycles will continue until I stop responding (setting a boundary). Do I need to stop entertaining his requests to talk? Or should I be leaning in and keeping the door open? I've held true to not reaching out to him for anything since early May, a full 5 months and counting. Do I stop responding to 'talk requests'? If I respond to 10/5 request, what do I say?

Is it fair to assume he's still in deep replay and anchor checking? Is this controlling behavior and/or manipulation? That's what I hear.

I heard a video that referenced monstering as 'charming monster'. Basically, clarifying that 'monster' doesn't always spew if they know spewing won't be tolerated (H knows that I won't take disrespectful mouthing). Is H applying a charming monster - whatever that is? Charming and ignoring is how H would respond to mom's spewing. Am I onto something? Has H been monstering me all along with taking me to doctors? Hanging with me for hours until he had to do laundry? Breaking our plans because he has yardwork? Could this be his way of keeping the peace and not facing his issues?

Mentally, I'm in a stronger and better place. Unlike 6 months back, I write this with an interest of boundary setting so that I'm not taken advantage of rather than with an interest of getting H back (and fearful of his reaction). I love this for me. I will always be grateful for the handholding. I know I can stand on my own two feet and if H goes radio silent again, it really is his loss.

Church services this morning focused on the uniting of a married couple. It took everything I had to hold my tears. Really wish H would have heard today's service. He's going on a year now without attending.

In a couple hours, I'll be surrounded by laughter and joy with my kids. So looking forward to a work-free Sunday filled with the comfort of family.

Still sprinkling in days off to burn vacation time - taking two days this week and will fill them with a balance of me time and continued yardwork. Oh and pitch tomorrow night.

Have a great Sunday everyone.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I was wondering if H would not show again.

Is it fair to assume he's still in deep replay and anchor checking?

You bet!

Is this controlling behavior and/or manipulation? That's what I hear.

2 for 2! You are hearing and seeing correctly.

Is H applying a charming monster - whatever that is? Charming and ignoring is how H would respond to mom's spewing. Am I onto something? Has H been monstering me all along with taking me to doctors? Hanging with me for hours until he had to do laundry? Breaking our plans because he has yardwork? Could this be his way of keeping the peace and not facing his issues?

For sure. H is doing anything, everything, to prolong from facing himself. Facing his pain/torment.

These anchor checks, H’s behaviour, well done on your part! You are nicely detached.

This is similar to my XW. She desperately reaches out to the kids. Calls, texts, one after the other, until the object of her attention finally calls her. The conversation between them is a nothing conversation. Nothing of significance. No care or concern from Mom regarding son/daughter’s life or school/work or whatever. No sharing of anything from her life; “oh, I just wanted to hear your voice”. (My one son is threatening to send her an audio file of him saying hi, as that is all she is ever after.) A minute or two, call over. Then radio silent for a few more months.

H is on his path. Which has nothing to do with you. You cannot speed him up. Any attempts would lead to prolonging his journey, or worse stalling him. You are wise with pressure free and letting him lead.

To that end, and with boundaries for you in mind, hold H accountable. Not entertaining his scheduling “conflicts”. No more proposing a different day. Demonstrating behaviour you won’t tolerate. Demonstrating behaviour you will. For example:

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific? Nope, I’m busy. I can talk right now though.

That would likely garner:

H: err. I’m not free right now. How about xxx?

Reply:

MG: Nope. Not free then.


Words vs actions.

Put H on his heals. He can come to you when he is actually sincere and serious about conversing, instead of wasting your and his time.

Look at this past conversation between you and H. If that was someone other than H, you’d not be going along with it. Be kind and cordial. And don’t walk on eggshells.

Enjoy the day.

D

[MamaG]

It's been a week. Took a couple days off and caught up on outdoor preparations for winter. Feeling accomplished and proud that I continue to get through the heavy lifts and using the machinery left by H.

I've always enjoyed watching the fall leaves trickle through the air towards the green landscape while I sit under a blanket and sip a cup of warm tea. This year, dropping leaves have a new meaning. An additional perspective. It's like a shedding of the past. Past life. Ways of life. Behaviors. Beliefs. I suppose, an 'out with the old and in with the new' concept. Bittersweet in many ways as I sit here and gaze at them trickling down. Enjoying the sight and thinking through the metaphoric shedding. As RegretfulLA would say, a new normal.

Checked in with a few friends/family who live in Florida - everyone is safe. Properties, not so much. There is some upcoming cleanup.

On a lighter cleanup front, I prepared for lawn service's visit today as they emailed that they'd be applying the last fertilizer treatment of the year. I used the backpack blower to blow leaves for a couple hours yesterday. Of course, the task required figuring out how to use the blower, how to start the stinker up and how to get it on my back to actually carry it around. That was interesting! When done, the yard looked great. An hour later, with the wind, the yard was covered in leaves again. UGH. I knew it wasn't a good day to blow them but also knew that they needed to be cleared for the fertilizer. Yup, I was out there raking this morning. Trimmed the last of the bushes - glad that's over! Have some remaining things to complete tomorrow before the outdoors will be ready for the 's' word. Let's hope it isn't all too soon. The days and nights have gotten noticeably cooler. Summer is certainly over.

D is feeling better, and I managed to not catch anything from her. We enjoyed a lunch together this week and plan for another next week. I'm really enjoying these random days off from work even if it means I'm doing some chores. Perhaps burning through 6 weeks of vacation time will get accomplished afterall.

Brother and I are in a groove - won 8 out of 10 pitch games over the last couple Mondays despite continuing with crazy decisions. It's been fun and it's nice to hang with Brother. Also meeting new people - some are interesting, and I'll leave it at that. Will be skipping cards this upcoming Monday for (H's) nephew's event that I'm attending. D isn't attending but S is going to try - depends on work. I'm a bit uneasy about Monday but will make it happen.

On a different note, although I keep up with the latest and greatest fashions through D's hand-me-downs, I went on a spending spree - for myself. Other than our feet, we've been blessed with the same body structure and size. And, D runs through styles/purchases rapidly. I must say that it was nice to pick some things out for myself. It has been a while....years.

I got invited to another event for H's family. This time, H and I got separate invites. I decided that I will not attend. S and D have decided to also not attend but haven't responded/acknowledged H's text. Can't help but notice that H's family affairs aren't quite priority for S and D. I will not influence nor point out - they're adults.

No H updates. No texting; no updates.

S, D, BF and I are headed to (my) Nephew's bday party this Sunday. Looking forward to some family time. My family is a blast to hang out with and no one leaves hungry!

Both families - mine and H's - really do celebrate everything and everyone. This kept us close through the years and filled our weekends. Only the summer is a quiet time. I really need to think through the next couple months of activities. Do I attend H's events if I'm invited. We'll see. Need to ponder this.

Included in the next couple months is my 50th and H's 50th - both in November. I remember really enjoying bdays and ensuring everyone's day was special. This is how I was raised. Through the years, my excitement has subsided. I've been disappointed by H's efforts long enough that it's just not the same. I've been beat down. Not sure how I feel about this year being the big 5-0!. D keeps asking me how I want to celebrate - I'm having a hard time thinking through it without emotion. Next month isn't going to happen as it's been written. I know I'll make it through but heavy, nonetheless.

Quiet week ahead - may need to schedule some GALing especially with ONLY one day off from work.

Have a great weekend everyone!

[grok]

Feeling accomplished and proud that I continue to get through the heavy lifts and using the machinery left by H.
…
I used the backpack blower to blow leaves for a couple hours yesterday. Of course, the task required figuring out how to use the blower, how to start the stinker up and how to get it on my back to actually carry it around. That was interesting!

Well done!, on this and all the other tasks the male half usually does. All those physical and maintenance tasks that never end. I see you figuring it all out and getting it done as needed. We step out of the areas we are comfortable and confident in and learn all the other tasks. I’m on the flip side. I’m learning or brushing up on all the softer skills with children.

That said, I’ve almost always been better/more interested in cooking/baking and housekeeping than the XW. I think that aggravated her as she had this notion she wanted to be a housewife but didn’t actually like the work it took. I think it also aggravated her that I insisted she learn and be capable of all the tasks I normally did. I taught her lawn mowing, house maintenance, car maintenance, etc…. I wanted her to be confident and capable when I was unable to be present.

It's like a shedding of the past. Past life. Ways of life. Behaviors. Beliefs. I suppose, an 'out with the old and in with the new' concept. Bittersweet in many ways as I sit here and gaze at them trickling down. Enjoying the sight and thinking through the metaphoric shedding. As RegretfulLA would say, a new normal.

This has been sitting in one of my many bookmarked browser tabs. And yes, metaphors, leaves dying and falling away, bare and sparse branches seemingly dead, but life deep within waiting for the season to come back.

You need to be completely true to yourself, AS YOU ARE TODAY, and when it's time to take any action do so FREE FROM FEAR.

What do I mean, AS YOU ARE TODAY:
* grief changes you
* betrayal changes you and the dynamic of your relationship
* you know who you were when you were single
* you know who you were in your marriage
* figure out who you are NOW, post BD

THE ONLY WAY to figure that out is to put in the work: quiet, peace, prayer/meditation.

Deep work which requires time, effort and patience.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2944361#Post2944361

Checked in with a few friends/family who live in Florida - everyone is safe. Properties, not so much. There is some upcoming cleanup.

Hey! I identify!

I must say that it was nice to pick some things out for myself. It has been a while....years.

Another common thread around here. In the M we get lost … and stop taking care of US. I know I did. Leaving myself behind in self sacrifice thinking I was giving to family.

Do I attend H's events if I'm invited. We'll see. Need to ponder this.

Yeah,… my former inlaws are out of state…but the same thoughts occur. They are NOT MY relatives anymore. She is THEIR daughter no matter her choices. They are MY CHILDREN’s grandparents. I have no answers now. I don’t need to answer now. Another day’s troubles. Not today’s.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Right back at you!

g

[MamaG]

Thanks for stopping by G. It was nice to read your thoughts on my sitch. I find myself reading my thread several times before I fully digest and accept and finally move through recognition of my own accomplishments/thoughts. Completion of tasks feels good in the moment but then I shift to the next thing rather quickly. Thanks for the pat on the back.

I've learned that I've lived for others and not considered my wants/needs for some time. I've also learned that buying myself stuff doesn't provide much of a dopamine rush. It's just another shirt....blah blah. Never been materialistic. Don't need for much. Quite some time ago, I learned that happiness doesn't come from things. Money doesn't buy love. I shine most when doing for others and giving to others. Even, being with others. My joys remain in people, company, togetherness. Surrounded by people is how I enjoy life and what it has to offer. This is also why I feel such a void with H being gone. H was a big part of my circle.

Last night was the big event - H's nephew's event with much of his family.

Once at the event, I knew where we always would congregate and so I walked in that direction. When I looked left to scour the stands for H's family, H was looking at me and we made eye contact. I went to say hello and helped myself to the seat next to him. Once S showed up an hour in, I invited him to sit between us and S did. I'm hopeful H got some relief from that as I wasn't sure if my natural instinct to sit next to him was his preference. And, then I realized that I may have put S in a icky spot - between his parents. I just couldn't win.

Family. Participating in H's family events is the big dilemma right now. I miss them terribly. Joining H's family yesterday felt great in the moment and then...a big kick in the pants as I left alone. It's ok - I can handle it. I've proven it to myself with how shockingly composed I was.

While H and I didn't exchange much conversation because I didn't initiate convo and we know H is still avoiding, it was like old times with the family. Everyone (except MAYBE H) seemed comfortable. We all laughed and enjoyed each other's company, 'as if' (? for some). While it was great in the moment, it wasn't so great walking to my car by myself. I'm left to continue pondering if it was smart to go. I know I was invited but I still question. More thinking to be done.

I've been invited to (H's family) events that I've declined and made it a point to ask about said events last night. Of course he was within hearing distance the whole time. Actually, I didn't realize how in tune I've been (or at least appeared) in each of their lives until these questions naturally came from my mouth.

In a short stint after my arrival, it was obvious to H that I've been staying connected to his family. I could see surprise in H. Confusion that I wasn't miserable nor tense. I imagine he was left with an impression on how his family rec'd me - warm hugs and smiles. H listened very intently to conversations; offered no commentary.

I modeled detachment with no bad vibes. I was genuinely happy and laughing the entire time. I gave off good aura. Quite surprised at how 'at ease' I actually was. Adrenaline? I felt high on life....no as if. Will this provide H with comfort to reach out? To talk? To anything? We'll see. Hopefully last night extended an olive branch to him...while that wasn't what I set out to do. In light of a couple attempts to 'talk' in the last couple of months, I'd love for H to see that I'm not scary to talk with. Time will tell.

On the inside, I wanted to jump in his lap and embrace him. I wanted to text him all day today. I want to invite him to dinner. H is my love whom I miss so dearly but continue to stay away from as he asked for space many months ago. I pray I'm doing the right thing because it doesn't feel right and it feels so raw again. (I keep telling myself this.)

Walking out, it was a mad rush to the exit. H behind me and still, we didn't engage. When I saw H's high school buddy ahead, I stopped in my tracks, looked back at him and said, 'It was so good to see you.' Staring into each other's eyes, he responded with, 'Yes, it was good to see you too.' and off we went on our separate ways. H didn't visit with friends for long bc a couple minutes later, H (alone) went to restroom that I stood outside of waiting for S. I left before H came out. I'm not even sure that his response is something I can trust as I know they lie. Yet, I feel like saying it out loud will be words he may replay in his head.

H and S talked through the event. They seemed to catch up and enjoy each other's convo. I loved it. On one occasion, H leaned around S and called for me by name. H asked me a question. I provided a response with some detail and returned to my convo with H's cousins who were on my other side. No pressure from me.

Detaching and jumping off the roller coaster has been effective for my emotional self. But I'll tell you that the minute my eyes landed on H, I was madly in love with him again. Those shelved feelings rushed to the surface. I imagine H saw it. If I could read H, he was wondering if I would ignore him or sit next to him. Perhaps a bit of nervousness that was relieved as I approached. H moved in a bit to make room for me and all.

Yes, H is still wearing his wedding band. Yes, H still lives down the street and rarely reaches out. Yes, H is still quiet, reserved, unsure. Yes, H is confused about how this will all play out. Yes, H hasn't reached out in a long time.

Yes, I was gaining strength and sleeping well. Last night and today - not so much.

One step forward and two steps back.

Do I continue to resist temptation to not reach out for a friendly engagement? Offer myself some psychological flexibility? I'm self-disciplined and practicing restraint but will follow recommendations.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Well done at the event. (And life. You are rocking it. )

I pray I'm doing the right thing because it doesn't feel right and it feels so raw again. (I keep telling myself this.)

You are doing fine. And yes, it does feels counterintuitive.

Do I continue to resist temptation to not reach out for a friendly engagement? Offer myself some psychological flexibility? I'm self-disciplined and practicing restraint but will follow recommendations.

Continue as you are. Living, loving life.

You did extend a friendly olive branch to H. He has to be ready and willing to reciprocate. If he is/does, if he isn’t/doesn’t, keep walking your path. Kind cordial. Better not bitter. Focusing on you. Allowing H time and space to decide his course - respond/reach out or continue to avoid.

(His is a slow path. Soooo slow.)

D

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Mama -
Just wanted to give you some encouragement -

How lucky you are to have so much wonderful family around - even if some are his family. They have become your adopted family over time. I love that. My H has two younger half siblings (they are like 20 years younger than us) and it has really made the family stuff a lot of fun over the years.

And good for you for treating yourself! I have to remember to do that too. I've been so focused on my budget that I'm loath to do anything nice for myself, but this week I bought a blouse and some shoes. Yes, money and things don't buy happiness, but looking good is a confidence booster for sure!

You're also lucky to have a church and a community that you're part of. I'm not religious so that's not much of an option for me, but I envy those who have that nice community. I'm finding that a lot of my empty nester friends are kind of struggling with this. We had our communities mostly through our children and one day that goes away. Even harder when we find ourselves without a partner. I've been thinking a lot about how to find a community and how I want to spend my time so that it counts for something.

It sounds like your nephew's event was a lot. Hard to be in the same space with H but it sounds like you did just fine. I'm sure he was nervous about it too. He seems very conflicted. I think that at some point this will get easier, even if it's hard now.

Keep doing what you are doing, my friend!

[RegretfulLA]

OH AND HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY!!!!!

[MamaG]

R - thank you for the early bday wishes. Remember that my family celebrates everything and everyone! It keeps us really closely tied. D & S are planning a family celebration next month. Should be fun.

You're also lucky to have a church and a community that you're a part of. I'm not religious so that's not much of an option for me, but I envy those who have that nice community.

I'd love for you to have a community that you belong to. It's never too late to try out a religious community if there are options around you. You may be pleasantly surprised. I've found that my religion has carried me through H's crisis.

Earlier this week, the oldest dog used his voice to announce an intruder - the mailperson was approaching our door. lol Having my attention, I looked and saw that she was looking for my attention. My mind began to wander. What could possibly have been mailed that requires a signature? I looked quickly and saw that it was addressed to H. Phew, a sigh of relief... I really thought THE papers had been mailed. Afterall, it's been since May that H and I have interacted. Anything is possible.

Although I've not reached out to H, for this, I felt that I had to. It's the business side.

M: I signed for a certified mailing for you. (I also sent him a photo of the envelope, so he knew who sent the letter.)
H: Thanks can I stop by tomorrow to get it (H is now ASKING to stop by. Throughout the summer months, H would TELL me he was going to stop by for his things. Is he lightening up on his control measures??)
M: Yes
H: I'll stop right after work

Next day:
H: Not going to make it. Is tomorrow, ok?
M: Would you rather I just open it and send you a picture? (I don't want to play this game for another few days and felt this approach would be welcomed. I was mistaken.)
H: No tomorrow is fine
M: I've got plans tomorrow night
H: Thursday? (Again, I don't want to play this game for the next few days nor make myself readily available.)
M: Are you working Saturday or can we do breakfast?
H: I can do that

I'm not holding my breath but would really love to know where his head is. Attending the event last week surfaced feelings and curiosity in me that I haven't been able to shake. If breakfast happens, I will listen and not initiate R talk! None of us are hearing from H much. And with ADs in August, I suspect he may have begun facing demons. Ahh, the inner work. I've been suspecting H has entered depression/withdrawal stage. I'd love to confirm.

This upcoming Monday provides for a pitch double header. We'll be playing 10 games due to a conflict this week - our opponent couldn't make it. Ten games is a lot of pitch, especially for a work night. Perhaps brother and I will catch dinner and a drink in between games. Looking forward to the potential 5 hours of cards.

I'm getting more comfortable hanging out with myself although I know that I need to get out and be an adult, too. I try to secure dinner plans once a week with different friends and another night with mom/dad. Last week, I had dinner with a couple girlfriends from elementary school. This week, I enjoyed dinner with D and BF. As usual, I sent her off with groceries and some meals which she appreciates. Next week's dinner will be with work friends which lends itself to being covered by the company. Working for corporate America has its perks.

On that front, as a large corporation, we host fairs where other companies visit to promote their goods or services. Each table/booth will offer gadgets with their company logo. Through the years, the family enjoyed going through the bag of goodies that I would bring home. Having attended a fair this week, I shared my goodies with D and BF when they were here for dinner. It's funny to watch D still get excited and now BF is sharing in the excitement, too. From bandages and pill boxes to stress balls to cutting board and chip clips to travel nail kits. Some goodies are really cool, while others are not as practical, but I bring them home anyway to share in some laughs. Sometimes, they surprise me with excitement when I'm expecting the laugh. This week's favorite gadget - the toothpaste tube squeezer. They don't like wasting any toothpaste. Interesting that they didn't seem to mind it when I was supplying the toothpaste.

S works a lot of hours. S travels a lot for his company and doesn't live down the street. I'm missing my boy. Adult kids and an empty nest have brought some sadness that I'm still working through.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Did H make it to breakfast on Saturday? How did it go? Did he get his parcel?

Enjoy your ten games of pitch today. And dinner with brother.

I could use a toothpaste squeezer.

I too found my kids are more thoughtful and less wasteful now that they are the ones providing.

Have a great day. (Oh my, five hours of cards on a weeknight. lol.)

D

[MamaG]

H made it to breakfast and he got his parcel. Here is a summary of the couple hours.

10/26: met for breakfast

1. I felt myself cycling rapidly in front of H – likely visible to him too.
- Shared I was nervous to be there and didn’t know if I was going to stay long. Saying these words caught him (and me) by surprised. I told him I wasn’t hungry (I’m ALWAYS hungry.)
- After sitting, I stared at him for a bit, speechless, and then one of us broke a smile followed by the other smiling. I wasn’t sure what either of us were doing – I then realized that in my mind I was telling him I missed him and loved him but was very confused and ready to walk (that stare was quite informing as I acknowledged my emotions. Not sure what he was thinking).
- In moments, I felt detached as I provided some blank stares (STFU smoothies were delicious) and some truth darts throughout
- Told him he was unreliable and he immediately nodded and said he could understand as he hadn’t been showing up. I was impressed
- I told him that I changed jobs and he was visibly upset, confused. He asked why I didn’t tell him. My facial expressions may have said it all but I followed it up with “You moved out.”

2. I saw/felt some empathy in him? feelings?
- He asked how I was doing? Sometimes does but he seemed to actually want to know this time. I didn’t offer much but engaged a tad.
- He asked about dogs – when I didn’t share enough, he probed about dogs again
- No questions about kids
- Told me D doesn’t talk to him and doesn’t want to go to his house. I reminded him that they’re both adults and need to sort it out on their own
- I observed that he could ‘read the room’. He knew I wasn’t comfortable being there and visibly tried to bring easy topics to surface after talking about how things have been and I wasn’t completely sharing.
- He shared that he feels better now that he’s not being judged. He can wear what he wants, do what he wants – described teenager life without having to report back.

3. H shared all his recent aches/pains – he’s often nauseous and sprained this, twisted that, etc. (Is this what deep depression feels like?)
- He told me in July that he was sick for 2 days – happens to be the 2 days after I told him I packed up his stuff and it’s in the basement
- Sick this past Th/F – happens to be the 2 days between when I invited to breakfast and the day of breakfast with me

4. H told me a few things I knew but I didn’t lead onto knowing:
- On A/Ds; not numb but they’re helping him

H: What kind of A/Ds do you take?
M: I’m not depressed; I’m healed – this was alarming to him. No A/Ds here.
H: Oh
M: I needed to heal and move on so I did that over the last 5 months. I’m healed now.
H: I don’t drink as much – I only had x and y yesterday but nothing else all week.
M: I don’t drink.
H: At all?
M: No.

- Got a dog

H: I rescued a dog. Details, details about dog and the rescue were provided.
M: That’s great. Can’t believe people treat pets that way.
H: I know. She’s so great. Her name is C and I gave her a bit of a haircut yesterday. (He proceeded to show me a pic with extreme excitement, like a kid in a candy shop.)
M: That’s great. (I was passive in response. He was disappointed that I didn’t take greater interest. Stared at the pic on his own for a bit and then put his phone down.)

- Went to SC and a concert – so I wasn’t sure but already had a suspicion since I knew EA went to SC for a concert over summer. BUSTED, but I didn’t say anything.

H: What about you? What have you been up to?
M: I went to SC this summer and attended a concert.
H: Me too. (I could see the immediate connection he felt and interest in sharing. I sat back and just stared at him for what felt like minutes but likely 10 seconds. My instinct was to drink the STFU smoothy and see if he’d come clean. Nope.)
M: I also did X while in SC (I returned to my story and didn’t share who I went with. H didn’t ask.)

5. I told him I will not abandon him ever and I know he’ll never abandon me (ummm. he has but it felt right to say)

6. H suggested we talk tomorrow on a hike

I put $20 on the table and began to pack up. H said he would cover breakfast. We went back and forth a bit and I then grabbed the $20 back. We walked out. I went in for a hug and off we went our separate ways.

What do you make of this all? Where did I DB? Where did I not DB? I feel like I provided a mixed bag of thoughts - which certainly matched my insides. lol

As I lay my head down on Saturday night, I'm unsure of how I feel although I know that I miss him. I'm unsure of what to do now? Where is his head? What's he really been up to?.....

Really need everyone's advice....

MG

[MamaG]

I wasn’t sure what either of us were doing – I then realized that I was telling him I missed him and loved him but was very confused and ready to walk (that stare was quite informing as I acknowledged my emotions. Not sure what he was thinking).

This was not verbalized. I felt it.

[DnJ]

Hi MG

I added “in my mind” to your statement in the original post. Does that reflect it more accurately?

It’s late here. I’ll post more later. Need sleep. lol.

D

[MamaG]

Perfect DnJ. Hope you’re resting.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I think the breakfast meetup went well. After an understandable initial bout of jitters it sounds like you found your center and were pretty well detached.

You DBed well. Listened and let H lead. Tossed a few truth darts. Remained pressure-free. And stood up for yourself. (Nice job with the smoothies. )

H is still being a teenager. Happily wearing what he wants, doing what he wants, and not feeling any much judgement or consequences. Yet, he is not a teenager. He is a grown man, and that grown body gets more aches and pains.

Yes, depression often is accompanied by illness and aches. Remember, depression is ever present in a crisis. H is still running, with some facets of his journey exhibiting more depression.

The “stage” of depression is dark and deep. Running no longer works. Nothing provides relief anymore. The MLCer starts to, well more forced to, dig into themselves and their pain.

Couple that internal digging with the weight of their actions and behaviours and choices starting to bear down upon them. Depression and Withdrawal, as they struggle to come to terms with their life.

The stages are nebulous. Some facets of their journey moving forward quicker than others. However, running is a long stage. And the world is full of things to distract them from their pain.

It is rather common for a MLCer to gravitate towards that which they hurt the least and that which would judge them (perceived or otherwise) the least. H asking about the dogs, yet not the kid for example. And of course, his own dog. Yes, a gleeful kid in a candy shop is apt. Such is the narrative and created fantasy of their’s.

As I said, I liked the few truth darts you tossed into his narrative.

My facial expressions may have said it all but I followed it up with “You moved out.”

You also let him know, he is unreliable and not informed of your life anymore.

However this,

I told him I will not abandon him ever and I know he’ll never abandon me (ummm. he has but it felt right to say)

Not sure what you are trying to tell him.

I’m thinking you are attempting to convey that the door is still open a crack. Yet, this statement is more a carte blanche for H. Letting him know you are sitting on the shelf, waiting.

I think I know you better than that. You are not sitting on the shelf. You are moving forward. Living life.

Now, don’t fret. It’s one statement in a couple hour long exchange. Besides, you can better illustrate what you’re trying to say through your actions.

As I lay my head down on Saturday night, I'm unsure of how I feel although I know that I miss him. I'm unsure of what to do now? Where is his head? What's he really been up to?.....

H is still playing with the unicorns and fairies.

It’s perfectly fine missing him and being unsure of how you feel. You aren’t letting your emotions lead your life. You are making decisions based upon reason and logic. Acknowledge the feelings, seek understanding of them, and let them go. Continue to move forward.

What to do now? I think you know the drill. Focus back on you.

You had a glimpse of H’s life and where he is. Did H and you have that hike/talk he suggested?

Live your life. Move forward. Don’t pursue H, let him run to catch up to you.

D

[MamaG]

I think the breakfast meetup went well. After an understandable initial bout of jitters it sounds like you found your center and were pretty well detached.

Agree that I appeared and felt detached. Some feelings would surface and then I pushed them back. Saturday breakfast was successful on the detached front. Agree that I shouldn't have said that I won't abandon him. I suppose he may have known that anyway but I didn't need to confirm it in case there was doubt. Actions though...if my actions continue to demonstrate detachment, the message will be re-sent to him. TY

I’m thinking you are attempting to convey that the door is still open a crack. Yet, this statement is more a carte blanche for H. Letting him know you are sitting on the shelf, waiting.

Yup.

H is still being a teenager. Happily wearing what he wants, doing what he wants, and not feeling any much judgement or consequences. Yet, he is not a teenager. He is a grown man, and that grown body gets more aches and pains.

I see that you struck the word "any". Are you suggesting that he tells himself that he's not being judged but feels like he is?

Yes, depression often is accompanied by illness and aches. Remember, depression is ever present in a crisis. H is still running, with some facets of his journey exhibiting more depression.

Based on your response, including this comment, I'm hearing you note that H is still in replay. Perhaps he's dipping his toe into D/W stages. Is that what you're suggesting?

As for the hike, yes it happened. I was less detached and was running out of smoothies. Maybe it wasn't a bad thing. In hindsight, I question if I took bait or if our conversation happened with the real H. It seemed so real. So hard to tell.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I see that you struck the word "any". Are you suggesting that he tells himself that he's not being judged but feels like he is?

Absolutely. MLCers tell themselves their narrative, their running behaviour, to try to escape their feelings.

I suspect H feels judged. From himself.

- He shared that he feels better now that he’s not being judged. He can wear what he wants, do what he wants – described teenager life without having to report back.

If one truly no longer felt something, why would they bring it up?

As an example, my empty nest and my kids. I no longer miss my kids… as much. The times throughout the day when I truly do not miss them, I don’t think of them, so I wouldn’t even mention them. The statement “I no longer miss my kids” has to have some anchoring.

To profess not to feel judged, is admitting the opposite still happens… sometimes. His daughter not talking to him, nor going to his house. Got to be some feelings there. Usually such feelings are buried with blaming. Seems H is not blaming. So, maybe something else…

Anyhow, the feelings of judging are getting less. So, valid and true, he feels better.

This lessening, to me, is a precursor to healing, to growing up. When one is fighting against their feelings, judging for example, they lash out. The brash bold teenager fighting against the judgmental system by wearing wild clothes, piercing, whatever. I mean seriously, you ever try to walk or run in pants that are hanging down at your knees. Not practical nor functional, so why do it. Rebellious. As they grow up, they pull their pants up.

I do believe H is dipping his toe into depression and withdrawal. His growth will be reflected in his actions and manner of dress. Watch his “pants”. lol. Actually, focus on you. A watched pot and all.

As for the hike, yes it happened. I was less detached and was running out of smoothies. Maybe it wasn't a bad thing. In hindsight, I question if I took bait or if our conversation happened with the real H. It seemed so real. So hard to tell.

Haha. Refill those smoothies.

Sounds like H is peeking out. Keep pressure-free. No R-talks. Time and space. Think timid squirrel. H has a lot to atone for. Imagine how difficult it will be to face all that.

He likely will duck back in for another spell. I think he’s not done, and is still baking. Time will tell.

You, keep doing what works, and less of what doesn’t. The conversations are fine, just be ready to back off really quick if things take a weird turn.

Remember, you are not at his beck and call. It’s ok to get back to him in a few days. You are pretty busy after all.

Have a great day.

D

[MamaG]

I'm not sure how the hike and talk went - mixed reviews (reviews of my own as I replay the whole thing in my head). I have given it all so much thought. To what degree was my real H present in the 2 hours? It felt like it was him that I was engaging with. H seemed serious and sincere. Not angry but question if his monster has softened....

And for as a result of replaying Sun over and over, I clearly have a lot to write. Long one ahead....

Time & location were not set for our hike. So, I reached out to H to ensure I heard from his mind. H’s response immediately introduced running behaviors: “not been feeling well since yesterday’s breakfast”. I’m feeling triggered – yes, I’m working on this.

M: Stopping at bakery. Want anything for our hike? (no response for an hour)
H: You’ve probably already left but I’m all set. I have not been feeling well since breakfast. There must have been something in it.
Hmmm…another nauseous day and I happen to be around him….STFU smoothy was delicious.
M: do you have the battery charger? I can’t seem to find it. (I made no reference to his ailments.)
H: What do you need it for?
M: I want to pick up some of these leaves with the mower but it won’t start.
H: Not sure you should mow them bc….blah blah blah…I’ll bring it if I’m feeling better
M: What time do you think you’ll be coming? (3 hours go by…)
H: I’m jumping in the shower and will be right over.
H: On my way

As H pulls in, dogs run over, and he happily greets them. He sets up the charger and we’re ready to go. I intentionally met him outside so this conversation happens, and we don’t get derailed by his belongings being packed up bc they’re right there at garage entrance. I walk towards my car in the garage as he walks towards his.

H: You’re driving?
M: I figured we’d take our own vehicles. I didn’t know if you’d want me in your truck.
H: Up to you but you can come with me. (I jump into his truck and we’re off.)
H: I’ll stop over tomorrow morning to see if it charged. (Interestingly didn’t offer to take care of the leaves.)

We enjoyed some small talk and then I asked what H has been trying to talk about. We talked about dogs (yes, again) and why they shouldn’t be pulled from mom too early, setting the stage for adults being impacted by long ago traumas.

M: You know that when dogs experience an early separation from mom, it leads to anxiety and other socialization problems. Plenty of long-term challenges.
H: Ya. But niece got her dog at 7 weeks, and she seems fine.
M: Humans are like that too, but it’s not measured in weeks. I said, the first 7 to 10 years of life really form who we are and our beliefs. (Let’s hope this connects some dots. Do you think in his emotional turmoil that this comment could’ve opened his mind to potential long ago issues?)
H: Ya. I guess.
M: I have a follow up appt tomorrow to confirm I’m in the clear from May surgery.
H: Where? (There was immediate concern in his voice. His ‘where’ question is likely due to him expecting to take me to the far away appts but I didn’t tell him.)
M: It’s local.
H: Let me know how it goes.

Ok, let’s cut to the chase...

M: So you’ve been wanting to talk. I’m not pressuring you but would you like to today? (He was visibly unsure of what to say and how to say it. I drank the STFU smoothie until his words came through.)
H: I still struggle with it but it’s fewer times now.
M: What is “it”?
H: Killing myself
M: Oh, ok. (insert pause. I’m inclined to believe he’s using this comment as bait, again. What do you think?)
H: The A/Ds are helping.
M: Are you ok right now. Or, do I still give you anxiety?
H: No, I’m ok right now. I just need to find myself. I mean not find myself. I just need to figure things out. (He retracts the ‘find myself’ comment as if he is aware of MLC and doesn’t believe it’s what he’s going through. It was a strange feeling that made me wonder why he felt like he couldn’t admit that out loud. Any insight? Could someone have joked that he’s having one and he is inclined to correct the perception?)
M: Happy to hear that anxiety is more under control.
H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)
H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

Now we’re moving into the thick of it…I couldn’t refill my smoothies as fast as I was drinking them.

M: Well, there are many ways. I’m not sure that anyone should write off a 32-year relationship without making an effort. But, I’m not here to change your mind.
H: And, how would we do that?
M: I don’t know. I’m not a therapist. This is where we were 20 months ago. (We just stared at each other. My wheels are spinning.)
M: What? You’re acting like you expected me to fight for you. (Blank stare again.)
M: I’m going to get ready to sell house. That’s the first thing in order. (Somebody get me a refill!)
H: You know that’s not what I’ve wanted. (He starts getting visibly agitated.)
M: I don’t need that much house and would like to sell it. (H shook his head and more silence.)
M: It doesn’t help that you’re talking with EA all day every day. The grass grows greener where you water it and our grass isn’t looking good. (He was confused by this comment. Not sure if he’s surprised I ‘know’ about EA or if he believes it’s innocent and they’re just friends. Thoughts?)
H: We do talk all the time. I guess you and I don’t really spend much time together, do we?
M: You spend holidays and go on vacations like the one in July to SC together. That’s called an EA. As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.
H: I do talk with her a lot but that’s it. There’s nothing else. (Bam – confirmed! Somehow, I kept my cool for the rest of our interaction that night. Not so much once I got home.)
M: Then why did the two of you go?
H: She had concert tickets. HS friend and I planned to go with her and her sister. HS friend backed out so it was the 3 of us.
M: I understood the two of you went alone and that’s definitely at least an EA. I have no proof of it turning PA but we’ll see. (Ran out of the smoothie again! Wish I hadn’t admitted the ‘no proof’ part.)
H: We just talk.
M: I’ve known and have waited for you to come clean with me. I even gave you the oppty yesterday, but you didn’t divulge. (H was not sure how I knew but didn’t question me either. Good thing as Godly intuition is hard to explain. I’ve still not snooped.)
H: I have no interest in her nor anyone else. We only talk. You know, she even suggested that I join dating sites. (OK, so why did he throw this in there? Dating sites were suggested?)
M: (No response. Refilled STFU smoothie as I collect myself from his admission. I purely watched him to see his body response. He wasn’t angry which is his typical response to pressure. He was saying this very matter-of-factly. I was so confused and unsure of what to believe.)
H: Maybe we can start talking more. I know I’ve suggested that before but I’m serious. We can reconnect. (Neither of us mentioned stopping with EA.)

We got back to the truck and I asked if I could kiss him. He said yes and I leaned in. Yes, I leaned in...other than look my way, I don't remember much leaning on his part.) And, I'm not sure what it meant or said to him. (Where was that smoothie maker?)

H is now opening up to me and begins to share his thoughts for the first time in over a year. Is this monstering to justify his behavior that was just aired about EA? I imagine there is truth to some/all of it too and these topics explain how he may have been seeing me as a villain in Feb 2023 and onward. Thoughts?

For someone who has aired very little over the last 12 months & for someone who has cried on a dime, this is a welcomed change. (Neither of us shed a tear.) Despite the many appts and hours we’ve spent together over the last year, he hasn’t shared any of this. Why now? What’s changed? Did EA help him see what he’s doing or even put to words what his feelings have been but he didn’t know how to express? Why is he finally voicing things? Has he reflected? How did he get here? I have so many questions.

1. Control – back to control. Yesterday he felt ‘judged’, but didn’t use ‘judged’ in today’s conversation. I told him that I’m not the same person and he said that he can see that.

2. Misses: (listed in this order)
My food
Playing games at table with me
Watching tv at night with me
Coming home to me
And of course….s3x

3. Grateful for a couple mentions:
-He thanked me for helping him through a 6-month recovery of an injury in 2021 (a contributor to MLC launch)
-He thanked me for managing the house and told me I did a great job keep us organized through the years. But (yup, a ‘but’) that’s not necessary anymore. H wants to be provided with more flexibility for his time – do as he pleases. H felt like we were in a boss/EE relationship (Hmm..never said that before but likely a truth dart at me.)

3. Need to escape – I validated
-H needed to move out (On the hike, he seemed to regret but provided no apology. I heard, he needed to escape and doesn’t fully understand it.)
-I was needing him too much and he couldn’t take it anymore
-He needed more freedom than I was offering him to do this or that without helicopter cop

4. Detachment (worked for me and forced him inward?) – H said I hurt him when:
-I wouldn’t respond to his texts over summer (Did he fear losing me and finally look inward?):
-I wouldn’t tell him what happened to my arms in July
-I didn’t acknowledge receipt of something he put in the mailbox in Aug. He said: how was he supposed to know that I got it?
-I didn’t tell him about job change

5. Explanation that his life isn’t great – woe is me
-He’s only been to bar 10 times in 1.5 years – doesn’t look at others. Just goes for a drink.
-Doesn’t eat most nights
-Needs to hire someone to mow his lawn bc he couldn’t mow for 2 weeks with sprained ankle
-He talked about being afraid to move back home in case control sets in again. (I didn’t respond – no comment on returning home as I’m not ready and the being afraid…well, fear remains in him.)

6. Forgetful
-There have been several moments that he’s forgotten things/commitments
-Parcel was about missing multiple appts and that there were consequences if he continued to not show
-Didn’t come for the charging lawnmower on 10/28 despite it being his offer
-Text me at end of day about forgetting to come for charging lawnmower but didn’t ask about my appt earlier that day

7. Admitted faults of his own
-Would walk away from discussions – he admitted hating conflict; it would’ve been an argument. (Umm…no….)
-Agreed that he wouldn’t bring his friends over through the years but it seemed like he was still hiding the reason; he knows that I would be offended by that
-Wasn’t good at creating lists

8. I provided a short apology dump to demonstrate growth and self-reflection (held onto some for another day)
-It must have been a heavy weight to be my main source of happiness – I go out now and like it. He said he’s afraid I’ll stop doing that. He wants to see friends and thinks I should too.
-We both lost respect for each other. (He agreed.)
-I should have stood up to my parents to defend him. (He agreed again)

9. He said that I don’t listen to him. I validated his thought as I’ve heard this before from him. And, I’ve read that avoidants say things once (sometimes just think it) and expect that the spouse understands how passionate they feel about that comment. I feel like there may be some truth to this comment and that I could be a better listener. Something I still need to work on.

10. Confusion and emotional turmoil continue:
-H wants to introduce our 2 dogs to his. (Umm, not so fast. Why do you think?)
-We talked about how him walking away from our convos was disrespectful. H quickly agreed and it was obvious that he had come to that realization. Told him that disagreeing on something isn’t an argument. Rather, it should generate conversation which is what marriage is about. We agreed that he needs to stand up for himself without the anger. (Was this too much for someone in MLC?
-I told him that not bringing his friends over to our house made me feel like he was embarrassed of me (I think he was embarrassed of them but I threw it into convo.) This was a new thought for H and he appeared to ponder. This gave me reason for pause. Could there be something here…
-At drop off, we were in convo while I got out of truck and closed the door. I kept eye contact. Afterall, we were in a convo. As I walk around to driver window, I saw his face fall. I could see anger surfaced. I got to his window and said, that was an example of you not assuming I had good intentions when I shut the truck door while we were talking. Could you see that you got angry? He said yes. I said, now do you feel silly? You thought I was abandoning the convo by closing truck door before saying goodbye? He responded with a disappointed, “yes”. I reminded him that I’m not out to get him. Assuming good intent would help our situation. (hoping this resonates as I’ve said over the last 3 years pretty consistently!)

11. I interpreted and walked away with some questions/thoughts:
-H is missing comforts and securities of home life – he mentioned several very specific things that
-Since MLC, it has been rare that H would accept any food I’d offer which was always confusing. Now that I know ‘my food’ is the first thing he mentioned missing, I wonder if he wouldn’t accept it bc it would bring him back to what he misses and remind him of home. Is this what you hear/interpret?
-Anger and fear continue to bubble to the surface – he has greater awareness now (afraid control will return if he comes home)
-Could it be that EA told him there was no interest in PA by suggesting dating sites? Letting him down easy? – Is his fantasy over and he’s beginning to realize it?
-I don’t remember an apology but heard the confusion that I was dubbing it an EA. To him, she’s a friend. What do we make of this? Limerence? which I know very little about….
-H acknowledged that he’s not perfect and needs to make some changes for us. hmmmm
-Could the upcoming holidays and our milestone bdays be influencing his thoughts and push to talk?

At the 20-month mark from BD1, he finally voiced his issues and suggests we talk more frequently. Is he cycling back to me? I still wonder if he’s had an awakening. What are your thoughts?

In addition to my interpretation of the last 5 months, he hasn’t been returning S’s calls nor reaching out to D & S very much.

In the entire 2 days, H didn’t mention spending time with this HS weed friends so I suspect that chapter may have slowed down. The EA and remaining HS friend don’t often tinker with weed; it’s on a more social basis.

Will he remember the details of this convo? What he shared and/or what I said in response? In the moment, he seemed to be very engaged and coherent. Nothing he said was outlandish. If I didn’t know about MLC behaviors, I’d tell you that was my H.

Is he still in replay? Breaking stage of withdrawal; first awakening? Second awakening?

10/28: H didn’t show up for the mower charger. At 9 pm, H sent a text acknowledging that he didn’t and asked if I had unplugged it already. We exchanged a few texts about how to unplug it and that was it.

10/29, 10/30, 10/31: No reach out from H

Let's see what Nov brings....

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Mama -
Wow, that's a lot and sounds like ice has broken a bit. Good for you for showing so much restraint. You are doing an amazing job with DB! Your H reminds me so much of mine. H and I have been doing a bit of reading into attachment styles and he's totally "fearful/avoidant" - sounds like yours is too.

It seems to me that he's going to be simultaneously reaching out and pulling back. He obviously misses you and still has love for you but there's something else inside that's pulling at him more strongly. Yes, he's obviously quite depressed. Perhaps you can mention therapy again if he gives you signals that he's open to it.

At some point he will need to do the work that he needs to do. Even if things get better and improve, if he doesn't really heal, the wounds will open up again. I DB'd successfully in 2012 and we did marriage counseling through 2015. Things improved, then got horrible again in 2019 when H "fell in love" with a very young woman which kicked off MLC. I didn't know about that until just recently, but somehow he managed to pull himself out of that funk and we were fine through the pandemic. Now here we are again. My point is - my H never did the work he needed to do to ensure that he wouldn't slip into his old patterns. Your H needs to do that work too so he can be fully present.

All of his mystery illnesses are interesting. You think he even connects them to his emotional state? He may be so detached from his own reality that he doesn't understand. His acting like a teenager is his way of avoiding pain.

As DnJ says, keep moving forward. H is on his own path and can't be relied on.

You are a good woman MG. I hope H can come to his senses.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Wow, that got a lot of stuff out in the open.

M: So you’ve been wanting to talk. I’m not pressuring you but would you like to today? (He was visibly unsure of what to say and how to say it. I drank the STFU smoothie until his words came through.)
H: I still struggle with it but it’s fewer times now.
M: What is “it”?
H: Killing myself
M: Oh, ok. (insert pause. I’m inclined to believe he’s using this comment as bait, again. What do you think?)

Nicely done letting H find his words. Pausing, letting H fill in the silence is excellent.

It’s pretty common for depression to bring about feelings of ending things. How it would be like. In my readings and experience (my cousin committed suicide) folks who are talking about it, are much less likely to do it.

Antidepressants also help. And H is on A/D. Which means he is seeing a doctor for prescriptions, follow ups, and reassignments. H will be exposed to, and prompted to, many avenues of reaching out. Speaking with the doctor sitting front of him; calling the office; the suicide help line; to name a few. H can reach out if he needs to.

So yes, I do think it’s mostly bait, with some truthful associated feelings. (H also does not bring this subject up again. Which to me illustrates the fleeting-ness of it.)

H: The A/Ds are helping.
M: Are you ok right now. Or, do I still give you anxiety?
H: No, I’m ok right now. I just need to find myself. I mean not find myself. I just need to figure things out. (He retracts the ‘find myself’ comment as if he is aware of MLC and doesn’t believe it’s what he’s going through. It was a strange feeling that made me wonder why he felt like he couldn’t admit that out loud. Any insight? Could someone have joked that he’s having one and he is inclined to correct the perception?)
M: Happy to hear that anxiety is more under control.

Mental health, emotional health, there is quite a stigma attached to that. Folks also deny health problems. Especially men.

By the sounds of it, H knows/realizes. Perhaps only in moments here and there. Yet he realizes. So, good for him.

H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)

Love it.

Your situation is far enough along, you are far enough along, and you are healed enough that the best/correct response is to toss the ball right back in his court.

This is/was no idle threat. You meant it.

H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

H is backpedaling. Methinks he is quite surprised by MamaG2.0.

M: Well, there are many ways. I’m not sure that anyone should write off a 32-year relationship without making an effort. But, I’m not here to change your mind.
H: And, how would we do that?
M: I don’t know. I’m not a therapist. This is where we were 20 months ago. (We just stared at each other. My wheels are spinning.)
M: What? You’re acting like you expected me to fight for you. (Blank stare again.)
M: I’m going to get ready to sell house. That’s the first thing in order. (Somebody get me a refill!)
H: You know that’s not what I’ve wanted. (He starts getting visibly agitated.)
M: I don’t need that much house and would like to sell it. (H shook his head and more silence.)
M: It doesn’t help that you’re talking with EA all day every day. The grass grows greener where you water it and our grass isn’t looking good. (He was confused by this comment. Not sure if he’s surprised I ‘know’ about EA or if he believes it’s innocent and they’re just friends. Thoughts?)
H: We do talk all the time. I guess you and I don’t really spend much time together, do we?
M: You spend holidays and go on vacations like the one in July to SC together. That’s called an EA. As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.
H: I do talk with her a lot but that’s it. There’s nothing else. (Bam – confirmed! Somehow, I kept my cool for the rest of our interaction that night. Not so much once I got home.)
M: Then why did the two of you go?
H: She had concert tickets. HS friend and I planned to go with her and her sister. HS friend backed out so it was the 3 of us.
M: I understood the two of you went alone and that’s definitely at least an EA. I have no proof of it turning PA but we’ll see. (Ran out of the smoothie again! Wish I hadn’t admitted the ‘no proof’ part.)
H: We just talk.
M: I’ve known and have waited for you to come clean with me. I even gave you the oppty yesterday, but you didn’t divulge. (H was not sure how I knew but didn’t question me either. Good thing as Godly intuition is hard to explain. I’ve still not snooped.)
H: I have no interest in her nor anyone else. We only talk. You know, she even suggested that I join dating sites. (OK, so why did he throw this in there? Dating sites were suggested?)
M: (No response. Refilled STFU smoothie as I collect myself from his admission. I purely watched him to see his body response. He wasn’t angry which is his typical response to pressure. He was saying this very matter-of-factly. I was so confused and unsure of what to believe.)
H: Maybe we can start talking more. I know I’ve suggested that before but I’m serious. We can reconnect. (Neither of us mentioned stopping with EA.)

So, lots out in the open. And ball pretty well in H’s court. Let’s see if he follows up with talking more.

As for EA, yes he likely sees it quite differently. Even justifying it as an innocent friendship. Masters of manipulation they are. Even to themselves. Twisting reality to their narrative.

You did well with the EA topic. You did tossed a barrage of truth darts, and you got him to admit the EA. You even put a boundary out there, and defined the EA as cheating - “As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.”

Stick to your boundary. You told H pretty clearly. It’s now up to him.

H is now opening up to me and begins to share his thoughts for the first time in over a year. Is this monstering to justify his behavior that was just aired about EA? I imagine there is truth to some/all of it too and these topics explain how he may have been seeing me as a villain in Feb 2023 and onward. Thoughts?

I’m sure H’s sharing of his thoughts about you are in a good portion a response of what had just transpired. It’s ok. MLCers have lots to burn through, and lashing out and venting can promote forward movement.

For someone who has aired very little over the last 12 months & for someone who has cried on a dime, this is a welcomed change. (Neither of us shed a tear.) Despite the many appts and hours we’ve spent together over the last year, he hasn’t shared any of this. Why now? What’s changed? Did EA help him see what he’s doing or even put to words what his feelings have been but he didn’t know how to express? Why is he finally voicing things? Has he reflected? How did he get here? I have so many questions.

Why now? Growth.

As odd as it is, and horrible as it is, affairs are a band-aid. Remember, these hurt folks are using the AP to grow up from. Like a surrogate parent for the teenager self. They use them. And the AP uses the MLCer.

It is kind of help. Not directly, nor particularly healthy or well intentioned even. And there are many other ways and methods of guidance and help. However, that’s not what was chosen. Of course, if they could/would choose better they’d not be in crisis.

That’s the silver lining side. There is an entire ugly side of affairs which folks embroiled in these illicit relationships have to journey their way through.

H’s list and feedback. There are some nuggets of truth in there, as you pointed out. And you have made changes, and H has noticed. Keep doing for you.

His take on things is the standard script/fare. Interestingly, he shared quite a bit. Even acknowledging some of his own shortcomings.

Will he remember the details of this convo? What he shared and/or what I said in response? In the moment, he seemed to be very engaged and coherent. Nothing he said was outlandish. If I didn’t know about MLC behaviors, I’d tell you that was my H.

Time will tell. MLCers wear a mask and hide their deep self. Part of the running; running from themselves.

However, I do think H will be mulling this over for quite a while.

Is he still in replay? Breaking stage of withdrawal; first awakening? Second awakening?

Replay. Tending towards depression.

If there is an affair partner, they are running. Sounds like the EA might be ending, or H is lying.

Boomerangs do circle back and then fly off again. It’s ok to hope. Keep expectations to zero.

The ball is in his court. Stick to your boundaries. Do not sell yourself short. Do not falter. Live your life. Love your life.

H has the opportunity to run and catch up. If he decides to, don’t hold his hand. He has to earn it. Demonstrate it. Consistently.

D

[MamaG]

Hello!

It was a touch weekend. Feelings. Oh, feelings were never ending. 

To profess not to feel judged, is admitting the opposite still happens… sometimes. His daughter not talking to him, nor going to his house. Got to be some feelings there. Usually such feelings are buried with blaming. Seems H is not blaming. So, maybe something else…

Pointing it out would indicate that it's on his mind. Good observation - TY. I didn't sense blaming either. Do you have any thoughts of what it could be? What could 'something else' be? Are you thinking a contributor to childhood trauma from long ago? Just curious what you meant.

You, keep doing what works, and less of what doesn’t. The conversations are fine, just be ready to back off really quick if things take a weird turn.

As DnJ says, keep moving forward. H is on his own path and can't be relied on.

Conversation is now welcomed more (by H). Well, maybe he welcomed it for the first time which let me into his world. Well, he showed me the world he wanted me to see.

Conversation with H also taught me that I'm not as detached as I was thinking. It's been hard to recover. Having given me so much to think about, I had a rough week and weekend processing. I spent more time than I'd like to admit finding my center.

And as I re-detach and do my own thing, I'm finding thoughts of H have intensified. And thoughts of H and EA have brought new feelings...not good ones. Re-detaching hasn't come easy.

I've learned that inviting H to breakfast works every time. I haven't been declined yet. Ane he always shows. Under the 'do more of what works and less of what doesn't' theory, I'd love to enjoy more breakfasts as he shows up and we engage. I don't invite though. Yet, it's contradictory to detaching. Isn't it?

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up. Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

All of his mystery illnesses are interesting. You think he even connects them to his emotional state? He may be so detached from his own reality that he doesn't understand. His acting like a teenager is his way of avoiding pain.

I don't believe that he connects the two. At one point...in a rather passive way...on Sunday I asked if he thinks the anxiety may be bringing on the 'not feeling well' symptoms. It was brief and we carried on with our conversation. I know that I can't help him yet I see to be inclined to think I can. Sigh

You are a good woman MG. I hope H can come to his senses.

Thank you! I feel like most think I'm a good woman...well, except H, whose opinion I put so much value in. His opinion hasn't been carrying so much weight lately, but it still stings to know he lives down the road which is a choice to not choose me, a good woman. I know it's his journey but the sting is still there. Reminders like this one from you are helpful. TY. Frankly, most, if not all of us on this board are good and strong people. Being here speaks volumes about someone and that applies to you too, RL.

I’m sure H’s sharing of his thoughts about you are in a good portion a response of what had just transpired. It’s ok. MLCers have lots to burn through, and lashing out and venting can promote forward movement.

Let's hope so. Still haven't heard from H. Not sure that I expected to, but certainly hoped. Knowing how hard it's been to re-detach, I'm willing to bet I may have expected to some degree.

Celebrating milestone bdays and upcoming holidays aren't helping matters.

Why now? Growth.

As odd as it is, and horrible as it is, affairs are a band-aid. Remember, these hurt folks are using the AP to grow up from. Like a surrogate parent for the teenager self. They use them. And the AP uses the MLCer.

It is kind of help. Not directly, nor particularly healthy or well intentioned even. And there are many other ways and methods of guidance and help. However, that’s not what was chosen. Of course, if they could/would choose better they’d not be in crisis.

That’s the silver lining side. There is an entire ugly side of affairs which folks embroiled in these illicit relationships have to journey their way through.

I knew confirmation of an EA and possible PA would hit me hard. No matter how much I prepared. I always told him that there were 2 things he could do to dissolve our M. One of them was an affair. Learning about MLC has helped with a change of heart. Helped. Not changed my mind. And so I waver. This weekend, a D surfaced more than I'd like to admit. It's a hard pill to swallow. It's still sitting in my mouth. (the wet pill tastes nasty!)

I've not told H that I've reconsidered my feelings about an affair. Technically, it's a boundary that I've shared and reshared with him since BD. The last time I voiced it was mid-March. Still, H heard this boundary for a straight year - at least 5 times.

My kissing him after the hike was in part to demonstrate that despite knowing about EA, he would be forgiven, especially if his fear of my knowing about affair is keeping him from moving forward.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again.

His take on things is the standard script/fare. Interestingly, he shared quite a bit. Even acknowledging some of his own shortcomings.

H was so tightlipped for so long that at some point, it had to come out. Agree that it is typical MLC script reinforcing that he's in MLC. Replay to be specific. Hearing himself admit things out loud can be helpful in a step towards acceptance. Afterall, step one is admission. I can hope.

Boomerangs do circle back and then fly off again. It’s ok to hope. Keep expectations to zero.

I don't feel like he's been much of a boomerang over the last couple of months. Meeting up at nephew's event wasn't his attempt. His parcel requiring my reach out wasn't his attempt. And that's what led me to invite him for breakfast. Is it typical for MLCers to bounce between styles in the journey? Or is his pulling back contributing to the thought that he may be tending towards D/W?

The ball is in his court. Stick to your boundaries. Do not sell yourself short. Do not falter. Live your life. Love your life.

Living life has been harder since we met but he doesn't know it, as we haven't engaged. For all he knows, I've returned to the 'Live your life. Love your life.' he experienced especially at nephew's event
a couple weeks back. This is a benefit of him having moved out.

Bumming that we don't have any pitch games scheduled tonight. Due to a conflict, we'll have a double header next week. Yes, another 5 hour marathon on a work night. One of next week's opponents is currently in 1st place so it should be an interesting night. We're in 3rd place which I am pleasantly surprised about. After all, this was for fun. Clearly brother's and my competitiveness is still going strong.

Bday celebrations started yesterday - Aunt and cousin treated me to an afternoon of laughs and good eats. Much needed GALing. Bday dinner plans this week with D. S is flying home from work trip for this coming weekend. Trying to be in better spirits as I approach what many are trying to make a great memory for me. Yet, I'm struggling to show up as they deserve. As I deserve. I'm surrounded by so much love & support. It's not lost on me.

On the house front, leaves are all picked up. Yard looks great. Hoping to not have to get back out there with a rake/mower.

I'm on the lookout for someone to take care of snow removal this winter. Collecting estimates. Wonder what the going rate will be...

While doing a load of laundry yesterday, the washer decided it was too tired to finish the load. It was no longer responding to me pushing buttons. I ruled out the potential circuit breaker issue. Tried a couple other troubleshooting ideas and speculate that it may be the control board...as it isn't responding. Meanwhile, the door is locked with a wet load sitting in there until someone can come to fix it. It's possible that the locked door has shut down the board. We'll see.

Dogs are enjoying me being home more as I burn through PTO. It's been nice to sit under a blanket with them. Lots of cuddles.

I'm currently making soup to warm up the insides. Love me some soup. Any and all soup.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I think, for H, that without the external judging he felt occurring, and with less outward blaming, his own internal judgemental voice can be heard more. Perhaps, he is looking within.

Yet, it's contradictory to detaching. Isn't it?

I understand the conversation with H stirred up things for you. Detachment is when your emotions are not being uncontrollably dragged around. Key word - uncontrollably. (Indifference is when you are numb.)

Sure your thoughts have intensified and you spent/invested some time into processing, and peering into the crystal ball. You were not a puddle on the floor, crying uncontrollably. You controlled you! You are detached.

You received new information, about H, about the situation, it’s perfectly normal to ponder/rationalize such. Just don’t get lost down the rabbit hole though.

I’d not be surprised if indifference is unwinding for you. That weirdly peaceful numbness. Again, perfectly normal. Feeling do return. We don’t remain indifferent forever. We just aren’t uncontrollably dragged about. And with our inner work, self control, healing, etc, we regain our power and stand for ourselves.

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up.

Obtaining a lawyer and looking into the legal aspects is wise. Feelings aside, and I mean put your feelings aside, use your rational logical side for making decisions. Never throw in the towel based upon feelings. Feeling based decisions lead to regret.

Yes, seek legal advice. Information is power. Know your right and responsibilities; the procedure; debts and assets; property you’ll fight for and stuff you’ll let go; the outcomes - best case, worst case, and likely case. All good solid information.

Use that information, equally solidly. Make rational decisions. Taking into account your feelings as well, after all you’re not a robot. Remember, doing nothing is doing something.

Limbo ain’t for the faint of heart. Let your time in the crucible remove the slag and unveil the gem inside.

Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

Know thoughts. Know feelings. No confusion. (Well, less confusion. )

Know thyself.

I know that I can't help him yet I seem to be inclined to think I can.

Yep, most of us are fixers.

Let go, or be dragged.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again.

Folks embroiled in affairs are not emotionally healthy people. It’s an illicit relationship. Sneaking around. A dirty little secret. Breaking up a family. Working to destroy someone else’s vows. Etc. What well-balanced emotionally stable person seeks, or agrees to, such a thing? So yes, an AP is likely in some turmoil as well.

Betrayal is the worst thing someone can do another person. The wounds from such action are deep and many. (((Hugs)))

You can heal from betrayal. And I mean more than just having things scar over.

No amount of retribution or comeuppance will suffice. That will not take the pain and deep hurt away. The answer lay in you: Forgiveness.

It’s also the path for “How do I get past this?”.

Love the sinner(s), forgive the sin/deed/transgression. (Your focus on forgiving is on the act, not the person.)

How do I get past this? Control. Choice. With purpose. Ask yourself, why would I allow the actions of them/others to have control over me?

Healing, sincerely healing, is a hard road. Holding a grudge feels empowering. It’s not. It takes a lot of energy to hold and maintain a grudge. Yet, that is our default. Programmed by society, media, and such.

Forgiveness is freeing. It’s is for you. From you.

It’s not so much taking the pain and hurt away, it’s letting go of them. Giving the pain and hurt away. Giving it to God.

It’s interesting how strongly folks hang in to their pains and grudges. And I mean, will fight against letting go. I get it, letting go feels less powerful. Angry, mad, furious, rage, are strong and intense emotions. They feel big and powerful. Yet, feelings are fleeting. And feelings are not facts.

Let them go. And embrace forgiveness. Find peace and contentment. It’s a much more powerful state.

Is it typical for MLCers to bounce between styles in the journey? Or is his pulling back contributing to the thought that he may be tending towards D/W?

Let me preface this with a caveat/warning. MLC is a wild cauldron of emotions and torment, so no guarantees.

It is uncommon for a MLCer to bounce between styles, while in replay. A vanisher remains a vanisher, a boomerang remains a boomerang. Seeing a significant change in behaviour is usually indicative of them moving out of replay. Be this short term, long term, or permanent, remains to be seen.

H may not like, to a very high degree, not like what he faces and jumps back into running. You remain: Pressure-free. Not your journey. Time will tell.

Glad to read the yard is all cleaned up and winter ready. I agree, find someone to look after the snow.

Sorry about your errant washing machine. The door locks electrically. Unplugging the machine should deenergize the lock and allow you to retrieve the clothes. (I know, advice too late. lol)


And Happy Upcoming Birthday!!!

(I am also a Scorpio. My birthday is coming up in ten days. Your invited. We’ll have cake and ice cream. Play pin the tail on the donkey. Hide and seek. Tag. Have more cake. It’ll be a blast. LOL)

D

[Valeska19]

Hi MG,
I think you did whatever everyone of us has done at some point during this journey. We temp-check to see where our partner is at. Now that you have - use the information given. And from the bleacher seats - that's pulling WAY back. There is still detachment that needs to be done.

My kissing him after the hike was in part to demonstrate that despite knowing about EA, he would be forgiven, especially if his fear of my knowing about affair is keeping him from moving forward.

He would have NO idea knowing this kiss is what you meant. And let me ask you this. Why are you kissing a man that has shown no intent of joining the marriage? We suggest no sex, no affection. It promotes cake-eating on his part.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again..

You have to give it time. You have to allow yourself to go through the emotions that come with it. You have to do your work. Only until your self confidence is back - can you truly tell if an affair is a deal breaker or not. This is not something you share with your H in the meantime.

H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)
H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

Well done. I think you showed real love for YOURSELF here.

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up. Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

Yeah the grief of a marriage dying is really REALLY hard. The emotions make the water all muddy and sometimes it's hard to see the truth and work on accepting it. I used to put up "reality check" post its all the time.

" I dont wan't a Divorce, but I have to accept that She/He Does"
" I am not throwing the towel, I am accepting that He/She Does has"
" I am moving forward with (hiring a lawyer, separting financers, etc) as a way to accept his/her decision"

I think it's really interesting that you asked yourself if you were manipulating... honestly that was my first thought with the breakfast. That you were manipulating a few things to yourself as part of the "bargaining" part of grief. It makes sense and it's okay... but do continue to try and remember what is real.

Your H is still reeling. He hasn't made any attempt to come back into the marriage.


Act accordingly to continue taking care of yourself!

[MamaG]

And Happy Upcoming Birthday!!!

Thank you for the bday wishes! Overall, it was a hard day. The texts were flowing in from family and friends (both his and my family) and I found myself looking for one specific text - the one from H. I know. I know. Expectations. I felt immediate relief once it came through around 4. Not a proud moment for me as I realized what I was doing.

I had an overwhelming urge to respond to H's text. "Happy 50th Birthday". I fought the urge(s), considered responding, re-considered, fought....and so I responded to H's text 5 hours later.

"Thanks for thinking of me. Will you be taking me out to celebrate?"

You, keep doing what works, and less of what doesn’t. The conversations are fine, just be ready to back off really quick if things take a weird turn.

Under this premise, I allowed myself to respond to H's HBD text.

The ball is in his court. Stick to your boundaries. Do not sell yourself short. Do not falter. Live your life. Love your life.

H may not like, to a very high degree, not like what he faces and jumps back into running. You remain: Pressure-free. Not your journey. Time will tell.

Under these premises, I failed. And what I said may have been a push although it didn't seem it at the time. I convinced myself that he leaned in and so I reciprocated. Looking back, I'm not sure this is how you'd recommend leaning in.

And you guessed it....no response as of yet from H.

[quote=DnJ](I am also a Scorpio. My birthday is coming up in ten days. Your invited. We’ll have cake and ice cream. Play pin the tail on the donkey. Hide and seek. Tag. Have more cake. It’ll be a blast. LOL)

Wishing a fellow Scorpio a very Happy Birthday. I would love to celebrate you, together. You've held my hand through the toughest moments in my life with such compassion and wisdom. I am forever grateful. May you enjoy your special day, DnJ.

Obtaining a lawyer and looking into the legal aspects is wise. Feelings aside, and I mean put your feelings aside, use your rational logical side for making decisions. Never throw in the towel based upon feelings. Feeling based decisions lead to regret.

Yes, seek legal advice. Information is power. Know your right and responsibilities; the procedure; debts and assets; property you’ll fight for and stuff you’ll let go; the outcomes - best case, worst case, and likely case. All good solid information.

Use that information, equally solidly. Make rational decisions. Taking into account your feelings as well, after all you’re not a robot. Remember, doing nothing is doing something.

Limbo ain’t for the faint of heart. Let your time in the crucible remove the slag and unveil the gem inside.

I made 6 to 8 calls and didn't catch any attorney. In short, ended up having no conversations and began to find my center. I know that financially, owing him alimony is an ugly thought. Losing his fantastic benes would be a loss. I haven't given up on us; on our R/M. Emotions ran wild and now I need to re-center. Re-detach.

Doing nothing is doing something.
Limbo ain't for the faint of heart.

Detach and back to no contact I go.

No amount of retribution or comeuppance will suffice. That will not take the pain and deep hurt away. The answer lay in you: Forgiveness.

It’s also the path for “How do I get past this?”.

Forgiveness it is. I tell myself that I've forgiven. I feel like I've forgiven. And, then my thoughts relive the conversation. Emotions resurface. Confusion resurfaces. I need to re-center. It's a cycle.

Have I forgiven H but am now having negative thoughts/feelings towards EA? Logically, I know that blaming EA for H's actions isn't appropriate. Yet, I feel forgiving H comes easier.

Love the sinner(s), forgive the sin/deed/transgression. (Your focus on forgiving is on the act, not the person.)

Yup...I forget this and then remember this as part of cycling.

Let them go. And embrace forgiveness. Find peace and contentment. It’s a much more powerful state.

So how do I behave the latter half of this month?

Do I respond to his Happy Thanksgiving Day text (if one comes through)? Do I send a HTD text to him without him sending one to me?

Do I send a HBD text to H in a couple weeks?

Sorry about your errant washing machine. The door locks electrically. Unplugging the machine should deenergize the lock and allow you to retrieve the clothes. (I know, advice too late. lol)

Proud to report that sister and I fixed the washer on our own. I managed to unscrew the top off of the washer, exposing the lock to the door from the inside of it. We reset the GFI and bam, I was back up and running. Another accomplishment! I was super happy.

Valeska19, oh how I've missed you. I've missed your direct feedback. Clearly, you must be disappointed in my update. I can see you shaking your head at me. I know. In hindsight, I know. Still counterintuitive to give space and detach. And, in the conversation, in the moments, I felt like I was really talking with H...not MLC H. It seemed so real. How can it be that H has pulled way back? I guess I should be thrilled that I got a HBD text at all.

I think you did whatever everyone of us has done at some point during this journey. We temp-check to see where our partner is at. Now that you have - use the information given. And from the bleacher seats - that's pulling WAY back. There is still detachment that needs to be done.

I need to pull WAY back. Got it. Is the needed detachment for me so that I handle my emotions better OR is the detachment for him?

[quote=Valeska19] He would have NO idea knowing this kiss is what you meant. And let me ask you this. Why are you kissing a man that has shown no intent of joining the marriage? We suggest no sex, no affection. It promotes cake-eating on his part.

Well, I kissed him because in the moment I believed that he really did want to talk with me more and I felt like a kiss would demonstrate forgiveness for EA so that he wouldn't be fearing reaching out to me. Well, seeing as H hasn't reached out, a kiss was ineffective?

You have to give it time. You have to allow yourself to go through the emotions that come with it. You have to do your work. Only until your self confidence is back - can you truly tell if an affair is a deal breaker or not. This is not something you share with your H in the meantime.

I've gotten off the D horse that I was riding over the last 2 weeks. It hit harder than I expected since I've been warned that A's are common. And, I have been suspecting this EA anyway. My self-confidence was not quite as strong as I led myself to believe. Good reminders.

Your H is still reeling. He hasn't made any attempt to come back into the marriage.

Fact. H hasn't made attempts. Ugly fact.

My post-its: Patience. It'll be on God's time. H needs space. H is still in there. I don't need to decide anything today. Doing nothing is doing something. My love sits on a shelf for when H is ready for it.

Thank you, both!

[Valeska19]

MG,
I am not disappointed in you. I've just been there. For the record - Detachment was very hard for me. I svcked at it. I was good at the no contact but it was difficult to let go. That's why I can see it so clearly now. I've learned It's not a one action thing. It's something that happens over time with consistent decision making. That's all I'm trying to help you with. Is staying consistent with actions that help with detachment and acceptance.

So here we go.

Thank you for the bday wishes! Overall, it was a hard day. The texts were flowing in from family and friends (both his and my family) and I found myself looking for one specific text - the one from H. I know. I know. Expectations. I felt immediate relief once it came through around 4. Not a proud moment for me as I realized what I was doing.

I had an overwhelming urge to respond to H's text. "Happy 50th Birthday". I fought the urge(s), considered responding, re-considered, fought....and so I responded to H's text 5 hours later.

"Thanks for thinking of me. Will you be taking me out to celebrate?"

Holidays and Birthdays are hard. And can be very painful to get through. I remember my first Christmas just crying in the shower.

When you get passed the pain - do you really want someone taking you out ONLY because you asked... My guess is no. But that "new truth" is hard to accept. So put things in place to help you get through it. My suggestion is that instead of calling H, you call a family/friend. Or post on the board. Share that pain with a trusted source instead and talk about how much it svks. This will help calm the nerves and recommit to yourself. It will help with the "urge" to reach out. It will help with the detachment.

PS. Don't be thrilled he texted you. It's really the very least he could do.
PSS. Don't text him HBD on his birthday. This will be very hard so be busy that day and have support.
PSSS. No holiday texts. No response back to holiday texts.

Well, I kissed him because in the moment I believed that he really did want to talk with me more and I felt like a kiss would demonstrate forgiveness for EA so that he wouldn't be fearing reaching out to me. Well, seeing as H hasn't reached out, a kiss was ineffective?

The problem with this thinking is that you are trying to control your H. This is you trying to do HIS work. We say around to keep the road home smooth. What that means is that we are polite and kind in our boundaries. It is not us taking on the work that our spouse needs to do. Let your H do his work. Without your suggestions, manipulations, or "guidance".

Have I forgiven H but am now having negative thoughts/feelings towards EA? Logically, I know that blaming EA for H's actions isn't appropriate. Yet, I feel forgiving H comes easier.

I would look deeper here. Is it perhaps that want to "forgive" in order to not lose the marriage? What if I told you that you can forgive and still move forward separate from H. Take the time to sit in all the uncomfortable feelings around this. Don't push yourself to forgive w/o FIRST allowing the anger that comes before it. Anger tells us something is going against our values. Listen to them.

I need to pull WAY back. Got it. Is the needed detachment for me so that I handle my emotions better OR is the detachment for him?

The detachment is for YOU. It is so you can recommit to YOURSELF. It's so you can look at situations and say "As painful as this feels right now, I need to continue doing X in order to stay in line with my values. In order to not lose myself"


Choosing yourself over H is a fairly new process. It's okay that you have setbacks. The important part is that you see when that setback has occurred and put things in place to make different decisions.

A good way to do this is to put some boundaries on yourself. If you can't follow them, you can't expect H to. We teach people how to treat us. The teaching comes from how we treat ourselves.

((MG))

[MamaG]

Truth is that I’m tired of waking up telling myself that I’m not going to cry. I’m going to have a good day. And before I can get out of bed, I’m crying. Quickly I remind myself of reasons to get up and be grateful. I settle down. And, it’s not long before the tears flow again. It’s like I’m lying to myself. I’m not OK. I feel like I’ve been pretending to be. Living alone has allowed me to cry as often and as much as I need to.

This is so exhausting. Not rewarding. Still, I continue in this cycle.

I don’t want to do this for another month. I don’t want to do this for another year. I just don’t know how to do or be different. I don’t want to cry anymore. Don’t want to be sad and lonely anymore. I don’t want to look for his text.

How is it so hard to be happy with me? Just me. I have so much to be grateful for. Yet, I have this one empty hole that takes up such a huge part of genuinely being happy. if I didn’t know any different, I’m going through my own life crisis

then I wonder if he ever even loved me. I know you can’t answer that. I just don’t understand how you can just walk out on someone. He hasn’t been communicating with his kids. I know this is typical here. But I don’t understand. Clearly I loved him more than he loved me and I saw things that weren’t really there . I felt things that weren’t real. That’s what hurts the most?

[RegretfulLA]

Mama
This is so hard. To think that this man, who you gave everything to, who you built your life with, who you parented kids with, could possibly walk away is devastating. You question everything. You question whether he ever loved you (I would guess that he did and probably still does).

So WHY is this happening?

It's happening because he is seriously hurting inside and can't make sense of his pain. Some people make the wrong choices at that point (like my H). Yours doesn't seem to have done so quite yet but EA is still hurtful and horrible and it makes you feel so small.

I commend you for hanging in there. Yes, limbo is not for the faint of heart. I would encourage you to really look at your relationship as it was before he left. Take off the rose-colored glasses. Were you getting what you needed? Was he loving and supportive? Would you say you had a good marriage? In my case - the answers were no, no and no, and it took a big slap in the face for me to admit that to myself.

If your answers are no, no and no, I'd recommend you really do some soul searching. But if your answers are yes, yes and yes (or even one yes), then don't lose hope. Only you can decide when it's time to put down the torch you are carrying for him, despite the fact that you still love him. I understand this feeling so well.

Wishing you peace my friend. Keep journaling. The answers will come in time.

Oh and happy 50th! Welcome to the other side of the hill!

P.S. My H's birthday was last weekend. I did not text, call, send a card, send a smoke signal, tell anyone else to tell him hbd or post on social media. I went dark. I know this is petty but I hope he felt bad.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MamaG

(((Hugs)))

Truth is that I’m tired of waking up telling myself that I’m not going to cry. I’m going to have a good day. And before I can get out of bed, I’m crying. Quickly I remind myself of reasons to get up and be grateful. I settle down. And, it’s not long before the tears flow again. It’s like I’m lying to myself. I’m not OK. I feel like I’ve been pretending to be. Living alone has allowed me to cry as often and as much as I need to.

This is so exhausting. Not rewarding. Still, I continue in this cycle.

Tell yourself: I’m not going to cry and I’m going to have a good day.

Crying is perfectly fine. And does not negate a good day. Nor is the absence of crying necessary for joy and happiness and a great day.

Crying washes away. God help a person who never cries.

I get it. Oh, so very exhausting. Have faith, your rewards are coming!!! Your hard work will pay off!

In truth, it’s already is paying off, it’s just your emotions are masking you feeling it. You know this. You remind yourself, so proof is there, you know. Be patience, have faith, your emotions will catch up.

Yes, act as if, is kind of pretending. I prefer, aspiring to be better. It’s a journey. And we all take small steps which feel unsure. That’s pushing one’s comfort zone, learning and gaining new skills and knowledge. It feels pretend, until enough come together and you suddenly realize just how much you have actually gained.

Keep the faith. Keep moving forward.

I don’t want to do this for another month. I don’t want to do this for another year. I just don’t know how to do or be different. I don’t want to cry anymore. Don’t want to be sad and lonely anymore. I don’t want to look for his text.

(((Another Big Hug)))

Cry. Stomp your feet. Sit right down in the middle of this proverbially path. It’s ok!

Take some time.

Then get back up.

Dust off.

And continue moving forward.


(I wrote to lonelee this morning regarding the importance of GAL and detaching. While writing to you, I realized I was starting to write pretty much the same. So I’ll copy .)


Get out and do something - for you! With you! Go for a walk, a jog, a run. Dig a garden, shovel snow. Go to the gym, join a kickboxing class, beat up a punching bag, whatever. Sweat out those feelings. While engaged in activity one let’s go of (doesn’t focus/reenforce) their feelings for a while.

We all live and travel four roads/paths - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. These are all interconnected and influence each other. Feeling sad causes similar thoughts and moping around, for example.

Out of the four paths/facets, we only directly control two: physical and intellectual. Our thoughts, actions, and reactions. We directly control those. We have the ability to immediately escalate or extinguish our actions or thoughts. Which in turn affects emotions and beliefs.

Emotions are born from our non-rational realm. They can be triggered or initiated by thoughts, activities, and other inputs; both internal and external. Feelings are quick to rise and quick to extinguish, if/when not reenforced. Feelings are fleeting. As one’s subconscious calms so do their emotions.

Beliefs, values, convictions - the spiritual path - is the slowest to alter or change. This slowness to change, this lack of knee jerk altering, makes this particular path excellent for one’s headings and direction. Especially, once one has categorized and (re)realized their underlying tenets and values. Strengthening that which serves, crafting that which one aspires to, and discarding/altering that which no longer/doesn’t serve.

To follow one’s deeply held tenets brings very few regrets. (Decisions based upon emotions almost always lead to regret, for the “reason” for the decision extinguished rather quickly and the consequences can be very long lasting, even permanent.)

However, that belief work is a long project, and one needs to be detached.

To influence one’s emotions, to influence one’s detachment:

As mentioned earlier, it is interesting how our emotions affect our thoughts and activities. The converse is equally interesting and very important. One’s thoughts and physical activity affect/influence one’s emotions (and beliefs). And we control our physical activity and thoughts!

An experiment/example:

Smile. Right now. Smile.

Bigger.

Curl your lips up. Show a little teeth.

Ok, relax.

Now, frown.

A big, pouting frown. Lips and forehead pursed down.

Ok, relax.

See how when smiling, you felt happier?

See how when frowning, you felt sadder or less happy?

Even forced smiling and frowning, affected your mood/emotions.

Our subconscious reaction is just that - a reaction. And we can directly influence it. Note: not directly control it, influence it. We directly control the stimulus. The thoughts and actions.

This is the “magic” of GAL. Living and loving your life. Doing things for you. Focusing on you. Finding you. Picking up hobbies and joyful activities you likely set aside for marriage and family. We all did, by the way. Responsibilities, work, kids, etc, all commanding/requiring parts of our day. Along the journey, over the years, we lose touch with some of that deeply held, profoundly held, joy and identity. Find you - again.

Likely, you will discover you are not far off the mark. You lived/live authentically. You just feel lost.

Detachment. Time and space. Finding you. Allows those feelings to flit. Yes, new feelings will pop up, and one allows those to flit as well.

Eventually one’s beliefs likewise (re)discover/regain their foothold too. Which definitely promotes and influences one’s tenets.

We live on these fours paths; like cars along life’s highway. When your four cars - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual - are all travelling together, side by side, the same speed, and the same direction, you have peace and contentment.

All journeys, no matter how epic and grand, all start with a wee step.

It can start with the smallest of actions - a smile. A walk.

then I wonder if he ever even loved me. I know you can’t answer that. I just don’t understand how you can just walk out on someone. He hasn’t been communicating with his kids. I know this is typical here. But I don’t understand. Clearly I loved him more than he loved me and I saw things that weren’t really there . I felt things that weren’t real. That’s what hurts the most?

I felt and thought the same things back when XW left me. Took a while to see things clearly. My thoughts, my experiences, my opinion:

H loved you. His turmoil, he doesn’t love himself. And that, buries things.

He is walking out on himself. You, the kids, the pets, friends and family, are/were just in his way. Collateral damage.

I’d say, my W (not XW, the gal she was), loved me. Was it more than my love? Less than my love? Neither. Love cannot be quantified like that. It’s more, you are or you are not. Certainly displayed differently, men and women and all.

Your feelings were real. You saw things that were real. Yes, lots of those things no longer are visible or present. H, MLCers, become the opposite of who they once were. And may or may not find their way back. Doesn’t negate your feelings and immutable past.

I know it’s difficult to understand H and the why of what the heck is going on. And I know we all require a certain level of understanding before we can will let go and accept.

Work on accepting things. From an intellectual view. You know lots! Don’t conflate lack of understanding emotionally with lack of understanding intellectually. You know lots! With this intellectually acceptance, emotionally acceptance is influenced and fostered. It’s the process of grief. Finding acceptance - intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.

D

[MamaG]

PSS. Don't text him HBD on his birthday. This will be very hard so be busy that day and have support.
PSSS. No holiday texts. No response back to holiday texts.

We say around to keep the road home smooth. What that means is that we are polite and kind in our boundaries. It is not us taking on the work that our spouse needs to do. Let your H do his work. Without your suggestions, manipulations, or "guidance".

I don't how to reconcile these two statements.

Right now, I can't rationalize texting H or not texting for bdays / holidays. I'm not afraid of 'monster' as his response to me not texting H. I will do the 'right' thing just not understanding the direction and vets advice. I've read to meet him where he is. Lean in when he leans in. I know his HBD text was empty and likely took him most of the day to figure out what to say to me. (Pretty sad considering how easy this used to be before MLC fun.) Had I not asked here, I would have rationalized that I should provide a HBD text as he did (seeing as it's a short time apart). Thanksgiving/Xmas seems easier for me to accept no text unless I get one. Even still, the recommendation is to not respond. Can you give me the 'why'? What's the reason? rationalization?

PS. Don't be thrilled he texted you. It's really the very least he could do.

So flippin' true! Maybe that's what made me sad, mad, angry, disappointed, annoyed, unloved, lost, confused... Yet, I was relieved and felt like I could build on it with the request for him to celebrate with me. In part, this was an attempt of building on the offer to 'talk more' in our convo a couple weeks back. I took that at face value. I know better, don't I?

When you get passed the pain - do you really want someone taking you out ONLY because you asked... My guess is no. But that "new truth" is hard to accept.

Yes, this truth is hard to accept AND, the truth that for the first time in decades, I was without H on my day stung. I feel like the suggestion to celebrate with me would fall under 'pave the way back to me'. Why do you not see my 'celebrate request' text fitting under 'paving the way'?

I would look deeper here. Is it perhaps that want to "forgive" in order to not lose the marriage? What if I told you that you can forgive and still move forward separate from H. Take the time to sit in all the uncomfortable feelings around this. Don't push yourself to forgive w/o FIRST allowing the anger that comes before it. Anger tells us something is going against our values. Listen to them.

This made me pause. I don't know why I'm forgiving. Intellectually, I know forgiveness is for me. For me to be able to feel a bit lighter. Less angry. Could it also be in part tied to the thought of not losing the M? Perhaps. I realize that I can't control his decision on our M, so I suppose there isn't a correlation between forgiveness and path forward that H decides on. Yet, if I don't forgive, H won't attempt to return. H avoids BIG time. Doesn't like conflict. Avoids conflict!

I do know that I DON'T want to forgive AND still move forward separate from H. Yet it takes two to stay M. He hasn't filed and back pedals when he offers and I 'embrace it'.

Despite looking to better understand the above feedback, I have come to terms, while kicking and screaming, with needing to pull back again. Getting through the next couple months is going to be hard. I know this. I'll take one day at a time. I can do it. January can't come fast enough.

Detachment was very hard for me. I svcked at it. I was good at the no contact but it was difficult to let go.

Yup. Yup. Yup. I feel this.

Your feelings were real. You saw things that were real. Yes, lots of those things no longer are visible or present. H, MLCers, become the opposite of who they once were. And may or may not find their way back. Doesn’t negate your feelings and immutable past.

I know it’s difficult to understand H and the why of what the heck is going on. And I know we all require a certain level of understanding before we can will let go and accept.

Work on accepting things. From an intellectual view. You know lots! Don’t conflate lack of understanding emotionally with lack of understanding intellectually. You know lots! With this intellectually acceptance, emotionally acceptance is influenced and fostered. It’s the process of grief. Finding acceptance - intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.

I learned months ago that I had let H go and I accepted it. I accepted that H needed time. I accepted that he is figuring himself out (whatever that may mean). I accepted that something in his past created this mess and H needs to ride it out on his own. I didn't accept that H didn't love me through the years. I'm struggling to embrace that my life was a lie; a lie told by me to myself. How else do I explain, "Lots of things are no longer visible or present. And may or may not find their way back." It's the 'present' that hurts.

Assuming H loved me through the years and H's love for me is now buried, is this where cycling stems from? Meaning, the touch-n-goes over the summer was 'his love for me' surfacing and then back into the fog and burying the 'love' by not reaching out for a week or so?

Is there a thread that you can recommend that would help me understand?

It isn't helping that both my kids are suffering and struggling. I hide my tears and feelings from them so as to not reinforce what they're seeing/feeling/experiencing with dad. I also don't want them to worry about me.

S is upset (finally an emotion as I was worried for him) that dad hasn't called him back in 3 weeks' time. S is seeing things differently and is going into anger zone. It took him some time to get through denial. S still doesn't tell me how he feels. There is a strict 'no dad' talk boundary that he's established with me. Maybe this will change, but for now, I respect it.

D shares more with me and asks for updates on H and I. I keep things on the surface and minimize what I'm going through for her health. D is relieved that S finally sees things she's been sharing with S for a year.

I still pray for H and that He help H through this journey we're both on. And, I know deep down my prayers may partially be selfish....as I expect that H will return. I haven't accepted any other path as He would not support D. Yes, expect. Expect and hope. I can't see it any other way.

Is a midlife crisis a mental illness? Demons entering our life to divide us? One of these? Both? Neither? What do you make of it?

[Caligirl]

Mama G

Sending hugs . Some days it does feel as if MLC is a mental illness . One thing it took me sometime to grasp is something is very wrong or went very wrong with them at one point in their life . It may be different for each one . The touch and go’s are just that, touch and run I call it now . Maybe this will help give a bit of insight . For 2 years I now realized I lived with touch and runs right under my roof . H would crash so hard with me making sure I was still roped on then run just as hard . Almost into someone who I didn’t recognize as a person or my H . I made the landing way too soft for too long . I started to see a shift not only in H but me eventually I got to the point of not being part of the place to crash . I saw this shifting for months . But the biggest shift was me . I began saying things to H and meant them . I deserve someone who wants to be a spouse a partner . I stopped even calling or answering when he was out . I stopped inviting him places . If he wanted to go that was fine but I didn’t go out of my way . His craziness was annoying. I did almost everything alone and was genuinely happy . I like valsekas take on it . Do you want to go out because you asked ? Or do you want and deserve someone who wants to take you on their own account.Even before his friend / family was removed from life support and he really dug in to changing . Now that my head is clearer I saw the shift in him prior . The running had significantly slowed down before that. He does talk about it with me usually after counseling . Over the weekend H was talking and said it felt like at some point you didn’t want me . Not in DB style but I said you are correct I didnt want to be with someone who treated me like that . I don’t really want to put on here what I do for work but let me just say this . Is H mentally ill , absolutely! Is there many other parts to his mental illness besides this . Yuppers ! I think for me I’m a fixer . So for a long time I thought I could fix him . Make the path smooth . Help him . Just like you “ kiss him “ so he would know it was ok . But and it’s a big but . It’s not ok . H needs to get where he’s going on his own .

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I don't how to reconcile these two statements.

Right now, I can't rationalize texting H or not texting for bdays / holidays.

Yep, it’s so very counterintuitive, at the beginning.

Had I not asked here, I would have rationalized that I should provide a HBD text as he did (seeing as it's a short time apart). Thanksgiving/Xmas seems easier for me to accept no text unless I get one. Even still, the recommendation is to not respond. Can you give me the 'why'? What's the reason? rationalization?

There are quite a few “reasons”. First, let’s talk about the most important reasons, the ones regarding you.

Detachment!

Detaching. Lovingly detaching. Allows you to see things more clearly.

No manipulation. Do not manipulate H’s path. Any efforts to speed things up, usually prolong the crisis, or worse derail things even further and stalls it out. And it already progresses at a glacier’s pace.

Also, you do not want/need the responsibility of H’s crisis/life/choices/outcome upon your head. Let H’s decisions/outcome be all his own! You don’t want to live with those demons.

H needs to feel the loss before he may start to turn back. Be pressure-free. And such.

I do know that I DON'T want to forgive AND still move forward separate from H. Yet it takes two to stay M.

Don’t tie these together. It increases confusion for you. Keep them separate.

Are you willing to continue moving forward?
Are you willing to live separately from H?
Are you willing to forgive H?
Are you willing to forgive yourself?
Are you willing to, still want to, remain married?

Yet, if I don't forgive, H won't attempt to return.

There are many factors in H’s crisis, and how/if/when he progresses through it. Or exits it. Your forgiving of him, will likely have little effect upon his finding acceptance. Or attempting a return.

Some LBS found that once their MLCer realized they were forgiven, the MLCer’s efforts to “prove themselves” diminished.

His crisis has nothing to do with you. He has to get through his crisis, and then you two can work on your problems.

Unforgiving will have an effect upon reconciliation. However, that is not the here and now.

And unforgiving with have an effect upon you.

Assuming H loved me through the years and H's love for me is now buried, is this where cycling stems from? Meaning, the touch-n-goes over the summer was 'his love for me' surfacing and then back into the fog and burying the 'love' by not reaching out for a week or so?

You bet!

The folks are lost souls. Such confusion within them. They run, fast and hard. Yet, they cannot escape/outrun themselves. Some slow for a breather, feel their old lives, reach back, and peek out of the tunnel. Then, they get stirred up, scared, and run again.

Realize it’s not you H is running from. H peeks back at you. Feels some old feelings. Has some calm even, which allows more of his torment to surface and apply itself again. Then off he goes.

Each touch and go is part of his journey. Is helpful. And so confusing for the LBS. The MLCer is not done baking yet. They need more time. Letting go is crucial for the LBS. Detachment is crucial.

Is there a thread that you can recommend that would help me understand?

There are many threads from wise posters. I’ll point towards a few of the sticky threads in this forum.

A few things you should know as the LBS

His Midlife Crisis … An Explaination

Why the MLCer is so distant

So much good info, I could have posted all of them. lol. The “MLC Resource” thread has links to many other good threads too. Someday I’m going to go through it, and others, to clean it up a bit, as some of the links are broken due to various purges of data.


I’m glad to see son is opening up a bit. Keep being his and daughter’s rock. Their strong stable parent.

I still pray for H and that He help H through this journey we're both on.

Let go. Give H to God.

It’s H’s journey, and you thankfully weren’t invited. You have your own journey.

Is a midlife crisis a mental illness? Demons entering our life to divide us? One of these? Both? Neither? What do you make of it?

Yes it is a mental illness. And it is very divisive and destructive.

As for demons. Yes. Be them actual or manifested within matters not. There are demons tormenting the MLCer! Absolutely!

As every coin has two sides. There is also light. There is healing. There is a path out. Hopefully, they can start to hear and see it.

There are forces at work. Dark forces. Light forces. As LBS, embrace and walk in the light. Let it shine. Let it influence. That’s my take on how to battle this.

D

[Valeska19]

Hey MG,

Sorry for the delay in my response. The website was down for awhile on my end.

PSS. Don't text him HBD on his birthday. This will be very hard so be busy that day and have support.
PSSS. No holiday texts. No response back to holiday texts.

We say around to keep the road home smooth. What that means is that we are polite and kind in our boundaries. It is not us taking on the work that our spouse needs to do. Let your H do his work. Without your suggestions, manipulations, or "guidance".

I don't how to reconcile these two statements.

Right now, I can't rationalize texting H or not texting for bdays / holidays. I'm not afraid of 'monster' as his response to me not texting H. I will do the 'right' thing just not understanding the direction and vets advice. I've read to meet him where he is. Lean in when he leans in. I know his HBD text was empty and likely took him most of the day to figure out what to say to me. (Pretty sad considering how easy this used to be before MLC fun.) Had I not asked here, I would have rationalized that I should provide a HBD text as he did (seeing as it's a short time apart). Thanksgiving/Xmas seems easier for me to accept no text unless I get one. Even still, the recommendation is to not respond. Can you give me the 'why'? What's the reason? rationalization?

The short answer is because sending these kind of texts is not accepting your current situation. It's an attempt at keeping a connection to a person who doesn't seek to keep one with you.

PS. Don't be thrilled he texted you. It's really the very least he could do.

So flippin' true! Maybe that's what made me sad, mad, angry, disappointed, annoyed, unloved, lost, confused... Yet, I was relieved and felt like I could build on it with the request for him to celebrate with me. In part, this was an attempt of building on the offer to 'talk more' in our convo a couple weeks back. I took that at face value. I know better, don't I?

When you get passed the pain - do you really want someone taking you out ONLY because you asked... My guess is no. But that "new truth" is hard to accept.

Yes, this truth is hard to accept AND, the truth that for the first time in decades, I was without H on my day stung. I feel like the suggestion to celebrate with me would fall under 'pave the way back to me'. Why do you not see my 'celebrate request' text fitting under 'paving the way'?

Because your pattern with your H has been you doing all the work. Can you see this is you begging for attention for him? Begging to still keep connected.

An alternative response to keeping the road home paved smooth could have just as easily been a "thank you".

I would look deeper here. Is it perhaps that want to "forgive" in order to not lose the marriage? What if I told you that you can forgive and still move forward separate from H. Take the time to sit in all the uncomfortable feelings around this. Don't push yourself to forgive w/o FIRST allowing the anger that comes before it. Anger tells us something is going against our values. Listen to them.

This made me pause. I don't know why I'm forgiving. Intellectually, I know forgiveness is for me. For me to be able to feel a bit lighter. Less angry. Could it also be in part tied to the thought of not losing the M? Perhaps. I realize that I can't control his decision on our M, so I suppose there isn't a correlation between forgiveness and path forward that H decides on. Yet, if I don't forgive, H won't attempt to return. H avoids BIG time. Doesn't like conflict. Avoids conflict!

So he does! That is not something for you to fix MG! His avoidant behavior is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Forgiveness and acceptance is not about tolerating a sh!tty behavior from your H. It's not saying "his avoidance behavior is okay". It's about surrendering to it.

Assuming H loved me through the years and H's love for me is now buried, is this where cycling stems from? Meaning, the touch-n-goes over the summer was 'his love for me' surfacing and then back into the fog and burying the 'love' by not reaching out for a week or so?

Is there a thread that you can recommend that would help me understand?

Is a midlife crisis a mental illness? Demons entering our life to divide us? One of these? Both? Neither? What do you make of it?

No. A midlife crisis is not a mental illness. A mental phenomenon for sure but not a disorder or a diagnosis.

But even if it was.... it doesn't make a d@mn bit of difference.

MG - you gotta stop trying to look for answers. You won't find them. It is just a cheeseless tunnel. And all the info in the world won't change your situation. It doesn't make it hurt any less. It won't make you choose yourself any more.

Over the next few weeks - I'm gonna challenge you to really stop asking so many why questions about H and turn them into "I" questions about you.

What do you want in a relationship? What's in your power to make that happen? How do you accept your H's choice that he doesn't want that with you? How do you accept that these weak attempts by your H is not actually about keeping ahold of YOU... it's about him keeping something that only benefits him.

Let your H fall. Stop catching him by allowing false connection. Allow yourself to take the space to feel the pain and grieve your marriage.

It would truly be the most loving thing you could do for you... and him.