Bustorama shared so much greatness above but THIS IS ESPECIALLY GOLDEN ADVICE:
Originally Posted by bustorama
Do not under any circumstances base your actions on her reactions or what you believe will be her reactions to your actions. That is controlling, manipulative, and co-dependent. If she acts cold or angry or whatever at you, so be it. Hear what she says, and validate her feelings. But do not be influenced or subordinate to them.
It has been a while since I have last posted on here. My life remains challenging trying to balance my fairly intense work schedule with childcare and logistics. I have introduced a number of changes in recent months that have stuck.
I have integrated a regular sports schedule that I stick to, which gets me out of the house in the evening after the kids are asleep. Even with my rather demanding and constantly evolving work schedule I get in at least two sessions a week, occasionally with a guy from the neighbourhood joining. I have addressed various things around the house that have bothered me for a while, although I have not quite gotten to give one of the rooms that I really want to declutter the attention that it deserves. I also plan to go out 1-2 times a month on week-ends, but am mostly too done to still have the energy to make my way up to the city.
For my birthday a couple of weeks back, I went to one of the French wine regions, which was really nice. I had not done something like this for myself in years, and that did me a lot of good.
For the kids, I do regular outings (sometimes she joins) and have organised some activities for them that they enjoy doing. This also gets me out of the house which is a good thing as remote working means that I spent too much time in a fairly constrained space. I do think that this is something which led to me shutting down my life too much during the pandemic, and which also contributed to a decline in the relationship. Although given our situation, I think there would be room to salvage it. Which she remains adamant there is not.
My interaction with my wife still remains challenging. I am not sure what I am dealing with - I believe that there is an element of depression and a lot of changes ideas and wants / needs. One moment she needs to urgently get work, the next moment she does not want to do what may be an opportunity as it would set her back. She does occasionally articulate the need to get out, that she is tired of me and not attracted (got to hear that last week, which was nice - she is pure emotion in these discussions, and I believe still harbours her EA fantasy). However, she has no ideas to put on the table on how we would make this work given finances and childcare logistics. I think it also remains a somewhat comfortable life (even if I am around), given that there is a house, food etc
I have become much better at detaching emotionally and am starting to explore options how I could make it work as a single working dad. However, that would involve leaving the country and she does not want to give me the children - while being very vocal of not wanting to do childcare and finding her parental responsibilities boring, not getting any joy out of the children.
She brought up separation therapy a while back, and in our last conversation (where I explained to her that we cannot make separation work given finances / childcare) we did discuss looking at counseling. I asked that we both go into it with an open mind, which she of course refused.
Is it worth going to counseling at this stage, or leave it for later (if there is a moment that is more opportune)? Given that we are living together in all of this, I am detaching more and will not engage in any conversation around relationship etc from here. The weird thing is that occasionally she plans longer term (us both being in the house), or even moving country together. I know there is also the view of not trying to fix someone in crisis (and I believe there is something not right). However, is it worth encouraging her to be more serious in getting help for depression? I am still quite worried about her.
I find it so odd living this way, with someone who is so volatile, moody and can be quite unpleasant towards me...
Thinking about it a bit more - I have again been down the cheeseless tunnel which is the relationship talk. There is so much blame that is coming my way, and so much regret of her past decisions. The desperation for a different life, with what she has in mind not being workable as a parent.
I am more at ease with where things are going, just daunted by what I will face in the next 2-3 years. And I do want to keep the collateral damage on my kids to a minimum. She has no consideration what her actions are / will do to them…
I am sitting here this evening listening to my kids playing in their bedroom instead of sleeping. My wife is out seeing an opera - a networking event for work in her fledgling attempt to establish herself as an independent business. Which did intrude on my work, despite her knowing that I currently have one of the more intense periods of the last couple of years. I need to think about how to get better at setting certain boundaries around this. I know how important it is for her to establish herself but I am the only one earning an income. And I do not see that changing for a while.
I think I have become much better at detaching, even if some days are better than others. We continue to live an in-house separation, which is not easy. I have been staying away from relationship talks yet gotten drawn into two arguments about separating recently, which she still feels strongly about. On the other hand, she has no realistic expectations of how that should work, given that the money is not there for two households; she would need to get a full-time job (and not be able to set herself up) and we cannot make the childcare work.
We did try marriage counselling with two separate counsellors, neither of which she liked (the one was too analytical, the other one wanted to delve into her past). I have concluded that this is not helpful for now, and maybe will not be. I did get her to go see a counsellor several months back (which she has kept doing), but now understand that was likely not a good action as IC tends to reinforce behaviours rather than hold up a mirror. Having read a lot on these forums over the past couple of months, I believe that I have come around to understanding what the guidance expressed by the veterans is. Unfortunately there is not much that I can do faced with someone in emotional turmoil, which has been hard to take.
I have spent time focusing on myself (apart from the considerable time I spent with my kids), working on my mindset and carving out time for things that I do enjoy despite my pretty intense days. I go climbing regularly, which has done me a lot of good. I have taken to reading more, and recently went for a "dinner with strangers" experience, which was something outside of what I would normally have done. I am focusing on my career, having taken steps to get a mentor and setting myself up for promotion despite the challenging economic environment.
I would be grateful for a reflection from the board: We continue living together in separation, yet I am not sure if this will essentially provide the space that she needs to be confronted with the reality of her choices. While things are a bit tight, she has a very comfortable life. She does not earn money, does not want to take a job below "what she is worth" and work on setting herself up. Separating for me includes selling the house, which would have a big impact on both our quality of lives (and in particular the kids). I do not want the kids to go through this, yet this cannot go on forever. I am thinking as a first step asking her to get a job and contribute to the household income.
Last edited by DnJ; 07/28/2404:45 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Thank you - this is helpful. The past year has been a humbling experience for me in terms of how little I know about relationships. How much I took for granted. How lost I got myself in the drudgery of the everyday mundanity, and how much that had worn me down.
Having read a lot on this forum, I marvel at the similarities in the situations that we find ourselves in. And I have reflected on how much good advice there is on here, and how I have repeatedly been unable to stop myself from stumbling on some of the "rules".
Detaching is hard for me, yet I have made progress. I give my wife lots of time and take on a lot of the household plus look after my kids next to a fairly intense job; I am not sure if I do not overdo it. I have some holidays coming up, including a week to myself which I really need.
I am trying to not stray into controlling behaviour, so I am a bit torn on engaging around getting a job. I will give this some thought, thank you again for your advice.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "better yet, be busy doing"?
I did get her to go see a counsellor several months back (which she has kept doing), but now understand that was likely not a good action as IC tends to reinforce behaviours rather than hold up a mirror.
Most folks in emotional turmoil will not listen to someone holding up, nor look into that mirror. Running from accountability and responsibility is pretty commonplace.
“I did get her to see”. When/if that becomes “W decided to see”, IC has a greater chance at yielding better results.
Originally Posted by Lb23
We did try marriage counselling with two separate counsellors, neither of which she liked (the one was too analytical, the other one wanted to delve into her past). I have concluded that this is not helpful for now, and maybe will not be.
Yes, MC is usually not helpful while one party is full of self conflicts and not willing nor able to be invested.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am sitting here this evening listening to my kids playing in their bedroom instead of sleeping. My wife is out seeing an opera - a networking event for work in her fledgling attempt to establish herself as an independent business. Which did intrude on my work, despite her knowing that I currently have one of the more intense periods of the last couple of years. I need to think about how to get better at setting certain boundaries around this. I know how important it is for her to establish herself but I am the only one earning an income. And I do not see that changing for a while.
“I need to think about how to get better at setting certain boundaries around this.” Some advice, not so much a boundary, rather delimitation between things:
“I am sitting here this evening listening to my kids playing in their bedroom instead of sleeping.” 100% agree with R2C - best sounds ever! It’s so good, it deserves its own paragraph. Do not concatenate W’s being out, how that intrudes upon your work, and such with your kids and their lives.
Identify the moment(s). Be present in the moment(s). Writing accurately helps with thinking accurately, which fosters feeling accurately, which expresses in living accurately. Be accurate and clear in thought and heart.
Next time the kids are playing instead of sleeping. Go up and start a pillow fight with them. I bet they would love it! And boy, the memories that would form for them. And you.
Hold your kids, your relationship with your kids, clearly, in your heart and thoughts. Free from the BS with W, problems with work, finances, etc.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I have spent time focusing on myself (apart from the considerable time I spent with my kids), working on my mindset and carving out time for things that I do enjoy despite my pretty intense days. I go climbing regularly, which has done me a lot of good. I have taken to reading more, and recently went for a "dinner with strangers" experience, which was something outside of what I would normally have done. I am focusing on my career, having taken steps to get a mentor and setting myself up for promotion despite the challenging economic environment.
Excellent!
Originally Posted by Lb23
I would be grateful for a reflection from the board: We continue living together in separation, yet I am not sure if this will essentially provide the space that she needs to be confronted with the reality of her choices.
In house separation is difficult.
It is not up to you, it is not your responsibility, it is not within your control to have or ensure she is confronted with the reality of her choices. You can only control you, giving time and space, moving forward, and focusing on you and the kids. Give her to God.
Originally Posted by Lb23
While things are a bit tight, she has a very comfortable life. She does not earn money, does not want to take a job below "what she is worth" and work on setting herself up. Separating for me includes selling the house, which would have a big impact on both our quality of lives (and in particular the kids). I do not want the kids to go through this, yet this cannot go on forever. I am thinking as a first step asking her to get a job and contribute to the household income.
It’s a difficult razor edge. Time and space, cake eating, etc.
Ask yourself this: Are you comfortable? You mention W has a comfortable life, do you have an equally as comfortable life? Do the kids?
IHS. Are you and her eating together? Anything still joint? Laundry, meals, sleeping, travelling/commuting? Not saying it can’t be, just looking accurately is all. Remember, W needs to feel the loss of you, before she can miss you.
Time and space for angry justifying feelings to burn out, and other more helpful to your cause emotions to surface. Guilt, shame, loss, and such.
Do steer clear of relationship talks.
Originally Posted by Lb23
gotten drawn into two arguments about separating recently, which she still feels strongly about.
Yep, arguing feeds her narrative and justifications. She will bait you. Try to draw you in. She needs to. Especially if her resolve starts to wavier.
I empathize with your reactions. Keep working on detachment and indifference. Realize you control you. Don’t take the bait. You can just walk away and let her be wrong.
I’d not ask/tell W to get a job. That will just foster arguing. Got to come at things sideways. If she feels something is her idea or choice there is a better chance of it happening.
If you are not ok with present state of your or kids’ comfort then: I’d present the household expenses to her. The “being separate” expenses which will clearly indicate her share. Of course, you cannot forgo the non-discretionary expenses. However, you can ease back on the discretionary ones. Doing more of what works and less of what doesn’t. It’s IHS after all.
Such pulling back of funding her lifestyle will have repercussions. She may also realize she needs to get it in gear and get a job and grow up. Ah, accountability and responsibility. Remember, you can only lead a horse to the water, you can’t make them drink.
By the way, it doesn’t have to be financial, or only financial. For example, cease joint car rides to places, if you are doing so. Sure, taking two cars is a pain. That’s the point. Let her feel it.
Originally Posted by Lb23
Detaching is hard for me, yet I have made progress. I give my wife lots of time and take on a lot of the household plus look after my kids next to a fairly intense job; I am not sure if I do not overdo it. I have some holidays coming up, including a week to myself which I really need.
Continue to give time and space. You really cannot overdo that. As long as she is wanting out of the marriage - give lots of time and space. She needs it, and will take it. Don’t walk on eggshells or be a doormat either.
Keep moving forward and enjoy your upcoming holiday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you DnJ and ready. You have given me lots to think about.
Comfortable life - mainly yes. Apart from that I do much more around the house, and probably an equal amount of childcare. I mainly take the kids out both days on the week-ends to make sure that they have fun. Which does come at a consequence for the time I have for myself.
Eating with the kids is communal; we have been sleeping separately for a while even before this, and there is no intimacy at all. She does speak to me a lot, and I have taken to mainly listening. It is interesting and has given me things to think about. As well as a glimpse into confusion, fantasy and reliving past choices (I think she spends a lot of time thinking about this). She does not agree with the traditional role of a woman / as a mother, yet I do not understand what she thinks is the alternative.
I struggle with the creating loss point, and do feel that I am still being taken for granted and seen as available. I need to give this further thought, yet I did recently make clear to her that for me there are no "creative" solutions but either reconciliation or a separation including selling the house and splitting assets. Which I do not really want as that spells pain for all, in particular the children. To whom this is not fair.
I am working hard on not being drawn into any argument, not doing anything that she would feel as incendiary or not like (e.g. sharing with others - I have drawn back from speaking to anyone except for a select few). My focus is on taking out negativity and having more positive emotions in the household. Walking on eggshells and being a doormat...I probably overdo certain things such as in the household and need to take more time where I am out doing things. I will focus on the latter first. I have a week of holidays on my own coming up.
Yours is the typical blindsided-husband story I’ve read a thousand times on this website.
Wife is post-kids, 40+, has multiple challenges around her or her children’s health (or death of a parent) and has lost some sense of self by not being able to maintain her career.
Cue midlife crisis, depression, anxiety and her search for answers (only ever searching external to herself) which becomes more volatile by the day as she becomes increasingly depressed and desperate.
With the “help” of girlfriends and therapist (who wants her coming back weekly for years), wife decides you must be the reason for her unhappiness. The split second that “the reason for my unhappiness must be him” enters her brain, she goes on a (roughly) six month resentment journey. She builds resentment over every little thing you do (and don’t do). If you make her dinner you’re a weak, sucky man. If you don’t make her dinner, you’re a lazy a**hole.
Eventually, she starts fooling around (emotionally at first, but then physically). Eventually the bomb drop comes. But she doesn’t move out, she just says she doesn’t love you and can’t be with you (but conveniently keeps living with you as a security blanket while she looks elsewhere). She’ll say stuff like “I love you, but I’m not in love with you” or “I’d like to work this out, but I can’t see how”. This keeps her in your holding pattern. It’s a manipulation. She wants to leave, but she needs to find your replacement.
Husbands flip out. Their entire world has been turned upside down. Male instinct of “something is broken, it must be my fault and I have to fix it” kicks in and emotions are dialled to 100 with full energy directed at trying to impress and save this unhappy wife.
While you apologise for everything (including things that aren’t your fault) and do 100% of the chores to try and fix what she’s unhappy about, it plays into her narrative that it’s all your fault. You’re trying to fix things - but you’re actually reinforcing to her that it has all been your fault all along.
Husband ends up at DB website, information dumps the whole story. Gets warned there’s probably an affair person, but is sure there isn’t. Trickles along for next few months hoping a structured response gets slow results and helps to rebuild marriage on a solid foundation.
Eventually, some minor issue arises and the wife turns it into world war 3. As sure as night follows day, there’s been someone else all along. She has reached the end of her patience, has a backup guy and a lawyer telling her what she wants to hear, so roughly nine months after bomb drop she starts burning it all to the ground.
Cue messy divorce, lawyers sniffing around for scraps and big custody battle. Husband comes back here to this website regularly, hoping to be the bigger person and validate and listen to turn things around - but the ship has already sailed.
The strongest theme I see at this website is men (just like I did) who pander to a “this must be my fault and I need to fix it” mentality.
Were you a perfect husband? No. Was I? No. None of us are. But from what I’ve read, you are totally willing to identify and work on your shortcomings.
She is not. She wants EVERYTHING to be your fault and she will destroy your mental health making you feel like everything is your fault and responsibility to fix. Tell me this - how many times since this started has she said “I did abc wrong, I own it and I’m sorry, and I’m going to try and do xyz to make it up to you and rebuild our marriage”? I’m quietly confident for the last 3 years your wife has never done that. Not once. Don’t shoulder all the responsibility for her crap behaviour.
You need to understand this is not your fault. It’s her mid life crisis, and she will do anything in her own mind to make it your fault because she can’t possibly deal with the guilt of breaking her marriage.
There is nothing you can do, say, be or promise that is going to make her happy right now. Stop trying to analyse what she says, does, indicates or what you think she wants. She doesn’t even know what she wants! The only thing she knows is she is unhappy and it must be your fault.
Please stop pandering to this woman. Once you’ve read DB and DR by Michelle, maybe pickup a copy of “No More Mr. Nice Guy”. That nice guy behaviour that you hope will save your marriage is actually destroying it.
Be cool, calm, collected, honest and moral. If she’s sad - SHE is sad. If she is angry - SHE is angry. Don’t think for a second that you are responsible for her emotions.
You seem like a great guy, and someone would be lucky to have you in their life. Don’t go out looking for someone new, but if she wants to kick you to the kerb - let her!
Why would you want so desperately to be with someone who doesn’t even love or respect you? That’s messed up. You deserve better.
I don’t think I’ve ever read one story here from a husband who has come along and said “My wife said she loves me but isn’t in love with me. Also, she’s having an affair so I kicked her out, put her stuff on the sidewalk, changed the locks and called a lawyer.” That never happens on this site… because men like that who are strong, full of conviction, and won’t be walked over - their wives never leave them in the first place!
There’s tonnes of wonderful people here, who give great advice for free. If I had to choose one you should listen to the most, it’s Ready2Change. He is the guy who will teach you to stop being a worried, weak man who analyses his wife’s every move - to a man who is strong, confident, attractive - and someone only a fool would leave.
You’re a good human being, and you deserve someone who sees it. Time to hit the gym. Time to start every sentence with “I” instead of “she”. Find your hobbies. Join some clubs. Buy a mountain bike. Do a course. Go camping.
