Rumspringa

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

It’s perfectly normal to doubt and question things. Especially around Christmas, Birthdays, and other special events. These times stir plenty of emotions within.

I'm not even sure I want him to come back now.

You don’t have to answer this yet. It’s ok to be in limbo.

Embrace limbo. Embrace uncertainty. Embrace possibilities.

Next week we are going to a nice dinner for S21's big birthday. Half of me is looking forward to it and half of me is dreading it... I am so on edge around H. At Thanksgiving I had to have a few glasses of wine just to act normally and I will probably have to do same at this dinner. He makes me very nervous now. Not because I am afraid of him, it's just that things are so tenuous. I don't know what he is thinking and I don't know where I stand.

Doing nothing is doing something.

You need not do anything. Nor make any decisions.

You can stand still and still move forward.


“looking forward to it”
“dreading it”
“I am so on edge around H”
“He makes me very nervous now”

I get it. Your feelings are valid and true. And your’s!

H does not make you nervous. H does not put you on edge. He is not that powerful! You make you feel. You control you.

Like I said, it’s perfectly normal to have doubts and questions.

“I don't know what he is thinking and I don't know where I stand.”

Don’t muddy the water. What H thinks or feels is irrelevant. Where and why and how you stand is up to you! It’s not based upon H’s thoughts or reactions or feelings. Focus on you. Live/love your life.

During our M I frequently felt left out because I was the only female here. The boys would talk sports and bro out a lot. My H has been a good father and has spent a lot of time doing guy stuff with them but he sacrificed being a good H. The boys always came first. Anyway, I sensed that bro energy coming up again and now, having been away from it, I realize how much it upsets me and how I don't want to be around it. It wasn't too bad tonight but at least now I'm aware. If we ever get to counseling this is something to be brought up. It made me resentful and probably not much fun to be around.

I can see how you’d feel left out. Lots of parents default to putting their kids first. This obviously places their spouse second or even further down this priory list if one is focusing on job, friends, whatever.

Certainly kids and employment and such are important. Yet, so too is one’s spouse. That’s one of the big marital problems, priorities. Eventually kids leave and one is left looking across the breakfast table at a stranger.

Communication, well the lack thereof, is a leading root cause of many problems. And yes, lots of guys do not communicate well. Especially their feelings.

Man/woman, husband/wife, each has a different lexicon. Of course, everyone has different experiences and vocabulary. It’s just there is a gender difference. Caring partners need to learn the other’s. I think men do a poorer job in this area. Especially the first time around.

If we ever get to counseling this is something to be brought up.

Yes, the neglect and such needs to be bought up. However, you need not wait until if/when H comes along. You can dig into your feelings on your own.

The bro energy. Deep down you likely wouldn’t want that bond to evaporate. My XW destroyed the bond with her kids. Tossed them away like used clothes. I saw the hurt and watched them suffer. (She actually speaks about and treats OM’s son like her own. In front of her own four kids!)

Seven years have passed. My kids are doing well. Very well. XW/Mom, hasn’t really progressed. She’s still a “teenager”. She’s no where close to the once loving wonderful Mom she used to be. It’s utterly amazing, both the incredible strength and incredible fragility of the human mind.

We all start standing for our marriage. It’s our default position. We then start healing and questioning. We then shift to standing for ourselves. Standing for our convictions and values. Oddly letting go the needing to save the marriage. Counterintuitively, good solid DB progress.

Dig deep my girl. Find your foundation. That on which you stand upon. Be a stanchion. Be better, not bitter.

Be your best you.

D

[Valeska19]

Today H came over to watch college football with the boys. He showed up at 9 am with bagels (as I predicted - he likes bagels). Made himself right at home. They watched football, they watched soccer - and he stayed here for 5 hours. 5 hours!! Took a little nap on the couch. Asked if he could have some leftover pie (I obliged). The boys could have easily gone to his apartment but of course he wanted to be here at home.

Help me understand WHY you would allow this. Who cares if H is more comfortable at home? He made his choice when he chose someone else. PLUS it makes you uncomfortable with all the bro talk. Let them do it somewhere else.

I sat there on the couch with him until he was ready to leave. No pressure, no R talk, but I'm glad he's feeling comfortable to at least spend time here.

Again WHY are you happy about this? You're comfortable with the fact he is comfortable being part of your live but not being an active participant?

Our trial separation was intended to be 6 months - he signed a 6 month lease - so that would be ending in February unless he chooses to extend. We are halfway through now. We will have to have a conversation at some point in the next 3 months. I was planning to ask him to meet with our marriage counselor and then bring up his affair - basically just saying, "I'm aware that you have been having an affair for several years and I know who your AP is."

Again Why?? You put too much in his court.

From the bleacher seats - he has made little or no attempt to come back to you. His still in his affair. So you have your answers. Allowing him to have ANY part of your home whilst in the midst of affair is cake-eating and not loving to you or him.

What do people think of that approach? I have greatly benefitted from the time and space he has given me and I don't feel the need to rip his head off. Or, should I continue to hold onto that information? Obviously he's not moving back here (if he so chooses) if he wants to continue with AP, so if moving home is his intention, we have to discuss it and set boundaries. Things were so bad for the last year. He treated me horribly and I'm not willing to go through that again.

I think you need to ask YOURSELF the hard questions about why you keep putting up with this behavior. You say you're not willing to go through that again so what boundaries are you will to put on yourself to uphold that? Because as much as the problem is your H... you also allow it in your life.

He's not really treating you any differently so why have a conversation at all other than to say you are done waiting (if you truly are).

I understand how difficult it is to surrender to the truth. Especially when there is confusion on their end. They reject you and then get surprised when you tell them "Okay... I accept your rejection so I'm going to move on". And then all h3ll breaks loose.

But that is where your freedom will lie. Keep working at it. Keep detaching. Continue to ask yourself how you can push the detachment further.

[RegretfulLA]

Happy Holidays all. I hope that you all are having peaceful and relaxing days during this festive season.

Time for me to check in here. @Valeska - thank you for the 2x4's. That was about a month ago now. Prior to Thanksgiving he had not spent any time at the house so I was seeing the time and conversations as some sort of positive movement. I think it was very weakly positive but not indicative of anything other than he misses the comfort of home. After the boys went back to college I did not see him and I kind of came to my senses. I was allowing him to be here because I wanted to be with him. It was only in hindsight that I could see that he hadn't really changed at all.

Detachment has been tricky because of the kids. Also, H DOES NOT KNOW that I am aware of his affair. My grander plan has been to keep things on amicable terms so that if and when we do D, I have a better chance of prevailing. I would go no contact but that's very challenging in our specific situation. I have been doing "smart contact" as much as possible.

Anyway. I have continued to re-evaluate the situation and my own feelings. We have had a lot of family events lately - our son's 21st birthday, a baby naming, a visit from out of town relatives on H's side and of course Christmas and Hanukkah (we celebrate both). H was included in my family's events and I was included in his family's events. H declined one invitation but I can't say I blame him as that particular event can be a bit painful.

It's been a slow journey of acceptance for me but I am starting to understand more fully that H is not capable of the type of change that would be warranted. I have been doing a lot of research into attachment styles - he is the classic dismissive avoidant which includes withdrawing, shutting down, withholding and not being able to be vulnerable. I'm not even truly sure he's in MLC. Understanding these behaviors has been really helpful for me and while there's help available, it's incumbent on him to want to do the work to heal his attachment style.

I watched a great video that talked about the number of people who start out at the beginning of the year all fired up to get fit and lose weight. Most of those people don't follow through and they WANT to change. So imagine how hard it is for someone who is resistant to changing to even take that first step. Not impossible, but not probable either.

I have a lot of empathy for my H and his choices. Back in 2022, he lost his job and we didn't get a big chunk of money that we were counting on. Big ego blow there. Cue affair partner - nothing like an AP to soothe the ego. Then, in Summer 2023 his grandmother died and his mother got sick, and his aunt (who was like a surrogate mom) showed her true colors in a very negative way. This set of events went right to his core mother wound. But since he's dismissive avoidant, he couldn't share any of these feelings with me and had to find a lower stakes partner (hello AP). Needless to say it was all extremely triggering and if he is in MLC, this is what really launched it.

None of this excuses his horrible behavior, his dismissiveness, his withdrawal, his treating me like I don't exist, his lying or his cheating. These were all coping strategies to resolve the cognitive dissonance in his head. I don't forgive his behavior, but at least I understand it a little better, which helps me to have empathy for him.

I had really been clinging to the idea of the 6 month trial separation. At first, I just took it at face value. This is a 6 month separation, so of course, I thought he would be back in 6 months and then we'd start working on everything. I don't see him realistically coming back here in 2 more months, nor would I want him to, and I realize that it's probably best if we go our separate ways. I just can't justify it any more. It's clear that he has treated me horribly in every way and has made only a very small effort to correct it.

Therefore - I'm working hard to be in the mindset of "I will hold space for you, but I will not put my life on hold for you." And secondly - "He is not good enough for me." And so - any big conversation will be to communicate THAT. Basically, "I'm done waiting." Trying to get comfortable with the shift in our relationship and to get comfortable with focusing on ME for a change. Accepting that I am deserving of actual love. I don't even know what that's like. I have been with him for 25 years and haven't lived life as a single person since 1998. It's a big shift, going from mom and wife to single person, and I need to work on figuring out what makes ME happy.

[MamaG]

Figuring out who I am has been the hardest part for me. I so much enjoy(ed) being mom and wife that I didn't care to be me. I have no idea who I am either. If you figure out how to identify yourself, please share the secret sauce. lol

Hopeful that your holiday celebrations are going well. Cheers to wisdom & patience in 2025.

[RegretfulLA]

Just a little bit more to add...

H took the boys on a short camping trip. They got back today and I asked S21, "Was Dad nice?" S21's response was "Yes and he's not moving back in."

Ok... not what I asked...

So I asked S21 for more details - a little more context - S21 immediately shut down. Then I asked S18 to explain that comment. I was really just trying to see if H meant not moving back in after 6 month separation or ever. Well, I guess H talked to them a bit about this and said that he didn't want to live with someone who didn't make him happy. I don't want to put the boys between us but when they offer up that kind of information unsolicited it makes that very hard. H should not have said that to the boys without saying that to me first.

One of the other things that H said to the boys was that he was disappointed that I didn't say to him "Let's work on our relationship" or "I want to make this work". Was he expecting ME to do that? I mean, what?? After he cheated on me, rejected me for months and then walked out on me? And then signed up for dating services the second he was gone? The first rule of DB is DO NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So I was pretty surprised (and confused) to hear that. I thought he wanted space and was trying to give it to him. And honestly, hearing that from me wouldn't have changed anything. He would have just known he had me on a string.

I understand how difficult it is to surrender to the truth. Especially when there is confusion on their end. They reject you and then get surprised when you tell them "Okay... I accept your rejection so I'm going to move on". And then all h3ll breaks loose.

I'm not sure all h3ll has broken loose yet - but - reading this again, this makes sense. He was sad that I accepted his rejection instead of fighting for him. I'm having trouble squaring this in my mind though. I think I'm in a no win situation with him: Fighting for him is clingy, anxious, smothering; accepting his rejection makes him feel rejected and he shuts down further. The only way to manage this is to do neither and live in this frustrating limbo. I think this is why I have invited him in and not detached.

I do still intend to have a conversation with him in January about where we stand and what is next.
It was my intention to say to him what I said above - that I would hold space for him if and when he is ready to work on our relationship. I do think it's worth one last try, but God, we are so damaged. It feels like trying to rebuild a house that's been hit by a bomb.

[Valeska19]

I understand how difficult it is to surrender to the truth. Especially when there is confusion on their end. They reject you and then get surprised when you tell them "Okay... I accept your rejection so I'm going to move on". And then all h3ll breaks loose.

I'm not sure all h3ll has broken loose yet - but - reading this again, this makes sense. He was sad that I accepted his rejection instead of fighting for him. I'm having trouble squaring this in my mind though. I think I'm in a no win situation with him: Fighting for him is clingy, anxious, smothering; accepting his rejection makes him feel rejected and he shuts down further. The only way to manage this is to do neither and live in this frustrating limbo. I think this is why I have invited him in and not detached.

Wait until you see a L and move forward with those steps. The "feeling" of his consequences has been pretty minimal. As you said the limbo is not being detached.

The other option of course is to move let go and move forward. That no win situation is for your H to figure out. Your next steps is for you to figure out your move. The limbo you live in is the limbo you choose. At this point - it's not longer something your H is doing to you.

I do still intend to have a conversation with him in January about where we stand and what is next.
It was my intention to say to him what I said above - that I would hold space for him if and when he is ready to work on our relationship. I do think it's worth one last try, but God, we are so damaged. It feels like trying to rebuild a house that's been hit by a bomb.

Isn't this the clingy, anxious, smothering action you are talking about above? Regardless of what he says to his sons... when he has done the work on himself... he will know that line was a lie to he was telling himself.


I personally think it's more of the same from you. You telling him you will wait until he "gets better". That is not a place of strength and honestly not very loving to you. Putting a part of yourself on hold for something that may never happen.

Why not work towards acceptance and put it in God's hands? If you two are meant to heal, he would open the doors to that. Just a thought.

But if you must have the conversation be calm and expect nothing.

[RegretfulLA]

Isn't this the clingy, anxious, smothering action you are talking about above? Regardless of what he says to his sons... when he has done the work on himself... he will know that line was a lie to he was telling himself.

Why is having a conversation clingy? Maybe I'm just not seeing that, maybe it's a blind spot for me. But, I find it very hard, after 23 years of marriage, to walk away without having ANY conversation. I would like some communication here and I owe that to myself. I have zero expectations as to the outcome. I think a big part of me wants to force him to face me. He has been such a coward, telling the boys he is not coming back but not saying anything to me.

I personally think it's more of the same from you. You telling him you will wait until he "gets better". That is not a place of strength and honestly not very loving to you. Putting a part of yourself on hold for something that may never happen.

Maybe this didn't come across correctly. I don't intend to wait until he "gets better." Not at all. But as I'm writing this out, I can see that there is not really a way to hold space for someone and move on at the same time. I intend to move on. Not to wait. I guess I am having a hard time shutting the door. It's so obvious that he needs a lot of help, but it's up to me to get over that urge to fix.

Why not work towards acceptance and put it in God's hands? If you two are meant to heal, he would open the doors to that. Just a thought.

I had a session with my IC today and yes, I think we can ALL agree that H is not putting forth any effort whatsoever. After 4 months apart and a lot of breadcrumbing, I'm finally coming to that conclusion. Our marriage dynamic meets all the criteria for "leave" (vs. "stay"). I prefer to channel my efforts into my own healing and yes, leave it in God's hands.

To add to this, we had our family Hanukkah celebration last night. H was not invited. This was a 180 for me as I had clingily asked him if he'd like to attend Christmas Eve and when he snidely declined I had to actually leave the room and recombobulate myself. The boys asked him if he was coming to Hanukkah and he told them he had not been invited. H did not reach out to me or anyone else in the family to ask for an invitation, and so, he did not attend.

S18 asked me why he was not invited. I told S18 that I don't feel comfortable around H. Even though I went to his parents on Christmas Day, I still had to take half a Xanax just to reduce my anxiety. I went because I didn't want to be alone on Xmas without my children and I wanted to visit with H's family, who were very welcoming.

Today H came over to take the boys to play golf. In contrast to last month when he came over with sandwiches and then cheerfully plopped down, this time he rushed in when he picked them up, and did not come in when he brought them home. I think H was angry/hurt that he was not invited to Hanukkah. He left something here that I wanted him to take so after the boys came home I rushed outside to catch him before he drove away. I stepped off the curb and went a few feet into the street to get his attention. We do not live on a busy street, but he angrily motioned for me to get back on the curb so he could pull over. He was a real SOB today towards me. Classic "angry H". Of course I know why, but he doesn't communicate any of it in words. I'm over it!

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

H took the boys on a short camping trip. They got back today and I asked S21, "Was Dad nice?" S21's response was "Yes and he's not moving back in."

Ok... not what I asked...

So I asked S21 for more details - a little more context - S21 immediately shut down. Then I asked S18 to explain that comment. I was really just trying to see if H meant not moving back in after 6 month separation or ever. Well, I guess H talked to them a bit about this and said that he didn't want to live with someone who didn't make him happy. I don't want to put the boys between us but when they offer up that kind of information unsolicited it makes that very hard. H should not have said that to the boys without saying that to me first.

I certainly can understand your frustration with H’s talking about details with the kids. However, control and expectations. You cannot, and do not, control H nor your kids. You only control you. Also, you cannot expect H to tell you stuff first, or not to tell the kids, or friends, or whomever.

Yes, it would be nice if H would speak to you first. Of course, if he would/did he wouldn’t be where he is.

Expectations are tricky and sneaky. We place them upon more than we realize. It takes a weird calm mindset to kind of go along with the flow, yet still control and direct what you can control. Embracing limbo. Embracing uncertainty.

H has the right to speak to anyone. So do you. So do the kids. You are all adults.

You cannot prevent H from speaking his narrative. Most crisis folks use friends, family, the legal system, work, etc. to their own ends. This is especially troublesome when it turns to weaponizing the kids. Luckily, it sounds like H is not purposefully going that far. He is just sharing his feelings with them.

The best you can do - lead by example. Be the strong stable parent.

When S21 and S18 brought up the unsolicited information about how Dad doesn’t want to live with some who doesn’t make him happy, would be a good time to have put forth the knowledge that happiness doesn’t come for others, or external sources, happiness comes from within.

I’m sure another opportunity will present itself and you can expound upon the source of happiness, while not blaming their Dad. Just explaining that Dad’s unhappiness (or joy), like anyone’s, comes from within him.

Yes, you don’t want to place the boys in the middle of this. However, it is perfectly fine to discuss topics they wish to discuss. And IMHO, they wouldn’t have blurted out that info if they hadn’t wanted you to know or hadn’t wanted to discuss or say something further. (Raised four teenagers. They are really good at not telling stuff they don’t want you to know. ) Be open for them to lead the conversation where they want/need it to go.

One of the other things that H said to the boys was that he was disappointed that I didn't say to him "Let's work on our relationship" or "I want to make this work". Was he expecting ME to do that? I mean, what?? After he cheated on me, rejected me for months and then walked out on me? And then signed up for dating services the second he was gone? The first rule of DB is DO NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So I was pretty surprised (and confused) to hear that. I thought he wanted space and was trying to give it to him. And honestly, hearing that from me wouldn't have changed anything. He would have just known he had me on a string.

That is typical narrative and justification creation. H is crafting “reasons” for why he is doing what he is doing. Don’t fall for it.

You are absolutely correct: No R talks!

H will use whatever you say, or don’t say, against you. After all, he just did.

I mean seriously, H is disappointed with you? For stuff you didn’t do?

R, that is pure projection. H cannot be wrong. His ego, his emotions, his mind, is too frail; he is too steeped in denial; he is too much running to be able to blame himself. Therefore, he blames you. Projection.

Any fighting against his narrative and he will fight and gaslight you.

Just let him be.

Fighting begets fighting.

You focus on you and the kids. You come at things sideways. That weird calm mindset. That embracing limbo.

Give H to God.

Leave the door open a crack.

Be the lighthouse.

AND, live and love your life! Without H! (Like he is not coming back.)

You don’t have to divorce. Or date. Or anything like that. Definitely not. lol. Embrace being single. Do fun things. Do what brings you joy. Dust off old hobbies and interests from years ago. Stuff you put away with marriage and kids and husband.

Remember, happiness, joy, comes from within. That’s for you too!

Why is having a conversation clingy? Maybe I'm just not seeing that, maybe it's a blind spot for me. But, I find it very hard, after 23 years of marriage, to walk away without having ANY conversation. I would like some communication here and I owe that to myself. I have zero expectations as to the outcome. I think a big part of me wants to force him to face me. He has been such a coward, telling the boys he is not coming back but not saying anything to me.

Control.

You cannot force H to face you. The more you try, the more he will run.

Let go the rope, or be dragged.

Time and space. Give him lots! Let him choke on it.

H needs to feel the loss, feel pain, before he will alter his course. He needs to hit rock bottom.

Maybe this didn't come across correctly. I don't intend to wait until he "gets better." Not at all. But as I'm writing this out, I can see that there is not really a way to hold space for someone and move on at the same time. I intend to move on. Not to wait. I guess I am having a hard time shutting the door. It's so obvious that he needs a lot of help, but it's up to me to get over that urge to fix.

H had a semi-traumatic upbringing with his unstable Mom; an unfortunate career/financial outcome; suffered from depression; etc. Lots of stuff to heal from.

You didn’t break him. Therefore, you cannot fix him.

Let the man upstairs have a go with him.

You don’t have to completely shut the door. By the way, the door; house:; etc; are metaphors for the relationship. So you can keep the door ajar. But H just can’t come waltzing in whenever he feels like it. Knock. Announce yourself. Wipe your feet. Take off your shoes. Like a real house, with a real door!

To further the illustrative metaphor. You don’t sit pining away. You go out. You go to movies. Restaurants. Vacations. See friends. See kids. And so on. Sometimes when H comes by, he’ll find you with music cranked up and blaring away with you dancing around. (Metaphorical and otherwise.) Times like that. “Busy H. Talk to you another day.”

Weird calm mindset.

You create your limbo. Which isn’t really all that bad. Once you figure it out. It is kind of counterintuitive.

Hope you and the boys have a wonderful New Year and all the best for 2025.

D