Rumspringa

[RegretfulLA]

This is a continuation of my previous thread, "MLC Hubby wants to move out". Well, he's moved out, so it's a new chapter and time for a new thread.

Rumspringa is an Amish term for the time that teenagers take away from their colony to decide if they want to stay with their way of life or to join modern society.

This is what H is going through - trying to decide if he wants to stay with our marriage and life of 25 years or if he wants something else.

How nice for him.

His moving out was a bit of a surprise. Last weekend on Saturday he bought a car and on Sunday he went to the apartment and signed the lease. He never told me his plans, so when I got home from my GAL on Sunday he was gone and didn't return until late. I went to sleep at 11 pm, but first I texted him and accused him of cheating and told him to get out ASAP.

An hour and a half later he's home in bed and tapping me on the shoulder saying he's not cheating, he was at his new apartment because he's "miserable living here." I said "I'm sorry you're so miserable" and rolled over and went back to sleep.

The next day he got up, did a little work and then went to his new apartment and that was that. I was expecting him to say, "I'm moving out on X day." But that would have been too much to ask. He's signed a 6 month lease. I'm not sure 6 months will be long enough, but we'll see.

I'm doing ok. I feel like I need a break too, to tell you the truth. No tears. Maybe I'm just a little numb. But the marriage was at its breaking point, and now it's snapped. Time will tell if we can put it back together. Or not. I'm working on accepting the possibility of "not". "Not" may be the right choice.

I have been GAL'ing like crazy! Really good GAL. He left on a Monday. On Tuesday I went to a concert and sat in the front row. On Wednesday I met up with some old and dear work friends. On Thursday (today) I did a volunteer project and there was a gorgeous happy hour afterwards. I am sharing my story with my friends and getting a range of responses. Some want to know the details and talk about it. Some completely get it. Others don't know what to say. It's all fine. Everyone is supportive.

I made H agree to come here for dinner while S18 and S20 are still home. I am taking S20 back to college this weekend and I told H he had to stay here while I was gone so S18 didn't have to be by himself. I created a detailed "separation agreement" and now H has to sign it. H is not pushing back.

However... H was here this afternoon and left the house with the front door unlocked and back door wide open (behind a locked gate, but still.) This is the kind of behavior that would drive anyone crazy. He's so checked out he can't remember to lock the door. Not the first time either. I've come home to the door actually wide open. Things have been stolen from our car because H forgets to lock it. Etc. This may never change. But right now, there's nothing to compensate for it.

he's "miserable living here."

This really irks me, but it brings to mind something I've been coming back to over and over again - the idea of me as a surrogate mother. It explains a lot - his hesitancy towards me, his sexual repression, his need for my approval, and now, his rebellion and wanting to leave the house. For anyone new to my sitch, his mom left the family when he was 12ish so he's stuck at age 12. Has not dealt with the trauma, hence the current running away behavior.

That's the update folks. More to come.



Previous thread.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

H’s springing his move upon you is par for the course. Very teenager-like.

I said "I'm sorry you're so miserable" and rolled over and went back to sleep.

Perfect!

I'm doing ok. I feel like I need a break too, to tell you the truth. No tears. Maybe I'm just a little numb. But the marriage was at its breaking point, and now it's snapped. Time will tell if we can put it back together. Or not. I'm working on accepting the possibility of "not". "Not" may be the right choice.

(((Hug)))

You’ve got time. No need to make any major decisions right now.

However... H was here this afternoon and left the house with the front door unlocked and back door wide open (behind a locked gate, but still.) This is the kind of behavior that would drive anyone crazy. He's so checked out he can't remember to lock the door. Not the first time either. I've come home to the door actually wide open. Things have been stolen from our car because H forgets to lock it.

With H moved out, change the locks.

Speak with your L prior to ensure the legality of such action. Coming home to my house that may or may not be as secure as I left it, would be unacceptable to me. I’d also get H’s set of car keys back. He has his own car, doesn’t need access to your’s.

he's "miserable living here."

Oh yes, irksome for sure.

H is a troubled and lost soul. He has lots of growing up to do. Being on his own; his miserable-ness is now on him. Give him to God.

Have an awesome Friday.

D

[RegretfulLA]

This week H stayed at my house with S18 while I was dropping S20 off at college. It's only a few more weeks until S18 goes so I've been "practicing" being an empty nester. H has been around a little more because he's been taking S18 to do fun stuff and kind of sort of (but not really) helping him get ready for college.

Yesterday H came by to take his bike in for a tune up so S18 could use it at college. It gave us a chance to chat. I was in the middle of work but H just sat down at the kitchen table as if he wanted to catch up. We did catch up - it was an unremarkable conversation. He seems to be settling in to his new place ok. Today H came over to pick up S18 for golf and started talking to me from 20 feet away in his usual mumbling tone. But when I said I couldn't hear him he took on this snotty "are you deaf" cadence. I definitely don't miss THAT. Certainly there's no way that he could be talking low; I must have a hearing problem!

My friends keep telling me "they are so sorry" and every time they say that I think that there's nothing to be sorry about. Well, there's obviously something to be sorry about, but I'm not really feeling sad or anything like that. I'm surprised by this. I thought I would feel SOMETHING. But really what I feel is relief and I'm kind of relishing not having to consider anyone else after doing so for 25 years. One of my friends actually said she was happy for me.

I feel a little guilty for not being more broken up about it, but maybe I processed all of that earlier in the summer when this was brewing. I don't know. It's given me the opportunity to see things differently. Things don't really feel that different, except now I don't have to experience H's negative energy all the time.

[MamaG]

Hi RegretfulLA! I'm stopping in to say hello. And, I hope you enjoyed the long weekend with great weather.

Sounds like you've made some real progress with detaching from H. This may be another explanation for not being 'broken up about it'. Keep on GALing!

MG

[RegretfulLA]

Thanks Mama! Unfortunately today there was a real setback.

Warning: venting ahead!

I was going through my credit card statements and there were two charges I didn't recognize - so when I looked into them they were TINDER AND HINGE!! Yes, my H charged his HOOKUP APPS to my credit card!! I am certain H didn't do this on purpose - my card had been connected to his Apple Pay so we could charge other normal things to it. And like I said, he's so not careful with money. Not excusing him... I don't think it was consciously malicious though.

Well - as anyone could imagine - I basically lost it with this and dashed off a series of very angry texts followed by a very angry phone call with a lot of yelling. At first H was only apologizing for charging to my card. He SERIOUSLY DIDN'T GET that what he did was a GIGANTIC SLAP IN THE FACE. Sorry for all the caps, I'm still so pissed, and rightly so. By the end of the phone call I think I got him to understand that what he's doing is incredibly hurtful and damaging. It won't stop him from doing it, however.

I don't see how we move past this. Yes, I understood that he wanted to "sample the buffet" but at the same time having it right in your face is so awful... so, so awful. At this point I cannot imagine taking him back. How could he possibly right these set of wrongs AND THEN also come back into this M in the way I need him to be? I just don't think he has it in him... and if this is what it has taken for me to finally see that, then I guess that's good. I just can't with him anymore, at least for right now. This one really pushed me over the edge and sapped the very last bit of goodwill I had towards him.

My biggest fear - honestly - is losing my house. It's not being alone, it's not seeing him with some other person, it's losing my house. Whatever happens, I cannot lose this house!

I'm not sure what's worse - leaving your wife for random hookups or leaving your wife for an affair? I think random hookups is way worse!!!

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

That would be quite a shock on the credit card bill. And yes, H was so oblivious to how such would make you feel. His empathy chip is broken. He can’t even handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s.

Some financial suggestions to perhaps take another look at:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950013#Post2950013

Is the credit card your’s? Or joint? Even if it is joint, pay it off and cancel it. Then get a new one. A new card, only in your name, a new number that H doesn’t have in his phone or access to. Let H figure out his own credit card arrangements.

My biggest fear - honestly - is losing my house. It's not being alone, it's not seeing him with some other person, it's losing my house. Whatever happens, I cannot lose this house!

Did you speak with a L yet?

Business/financial path. H’s removal of $100,000 to fund his moving out should reciprocate on your side of the ledger. Goes a long ways to owning the house, methinks.

Remember, you are on two paths. You need to look after your financial protection and security.

D

[RegretfulLA]

Hi D -
No visit to L yet. Our arrangement involves me receiving his paycheck in full and disbursing a stipend back to him, so it's not in my best interest to make any rash financial moves. I am actually in control of our money. The credit card is off his phone and he has no access to it. We have a separation agreement that details all of our financial arrangements. I like your idea of the 100K "credit" however!!!

We are not adversarial and I don't wish to make it so at this point, but this incident swung the pendulum for me firmly towards D. It was basically the last straw, and I think he knows that. Therefore I am orienting myself with D in mind and not reconciliation. The fact that he has moved out and made efforts to "date" other people says to me that he is done with this relationship. I know that the spirit of this forum and Michele's teachings is to avoid D, but I don't think I can continue to be a doormat. This is unacceptable and disrespectful behavior, and if I were advising someone else, I think I would tell them not to accept it either. I also don't think Michele would say "be a doormat for the sake of saving your M".

That said, H has signed a 6 month lease and I am willing to let this play out for the full 6 months. I am willing to hear what H has to say at the end of the 6 months, but I deserve better than this. No self respecting woman would put up with this - the benefit just does not outweigh the cost. House or no house.

(Plus he snores like a freight train and it's been a relief to get away from that.)

I believe that he subconsciously torched this relationship so that I would be the one to initiate D. So, he may get his wish.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

Lots of leaving spouses, consciously and subconsciously, partake in behaviours and actions to attempt the LBS to take steps towards divorce. They want the LBS to be the bad guy. They’ll bait, start arguments, etc, to try to get the LBS to do the work. Sidestep H’s traps. Leave the heavy-lifting to H. He’s the one who wants out.

That being said, if one needs financial security or protection, then get it. Otherwise, let it be.

You are correct, with all of that, do not be a doormat. Boundaries, focusing on you, going dim/dark, etc. Leave H to his unacceptable and disrespectful behaviour. You cannot control it, nor him; only yourself.

Any reconciliation will be creating a new relationship, not saving the old marriage. In that respect, divorced or not matters little.

In fact, what matters is you. Do for you. Take the time to heal, to live, to find your peace. Which I know you are. You’re levelheaded and not making rash decisions.

Continue moving forward. You got this.

D

[MamaG]

RegretfulLA - hope you enjoyed the weekend without snoring nor H's antics.

I'm sorry to hear about the charges you came across. I can't imagine the emotions that ran through you. DnJ explained heavy lifting well in my thread. Give it another read.

We know that replay behaviors include activities MLCer wouldn't typically partake in pre-MLC. Being unfaithful is a way many seek 'happy'. Believe me, I don't condone it nor imply it's an easy finding. Still, we know it's common.

Only you know what you can overcome and forgive. Give your decision some time and thought. You don't need to decide whether to file or not today.

Hugs to you.

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Everyone,
It's been a couple of weeks already! Time flies when you're GAL'ing!

Thank you all for your kind and supportive words. It's very helpful. Yes, it's one day at a time and no decisions need to be made, but I'm a planner and I like to have a map of where things might go. I've got to reflect on what has happened in the last month, year, 5, 10 years and really re-evaluate it.

Any reconciliation will be creating a new relationship, not saving the old marriage. In that respect, divorced or not matters little.

I love this. It's totally true. And I'm not sure I would choose H all over again. At least, not H in his current state.

Last week we dropped off S18 at college so I am an officially an empty nester! It's just me and the dogs now! Aside from figuring out how to to cook for one, I'm enjoying the peace and quiet and freedom. I can breathe! I've been spending time clearing out junk and organizing and it's been great (yes, this is what I consider "great").

College dropoff went smoothly. H came with but had his own hotel room and drove his own car. Except for one moment when he told me not to yell my son's name to get his attention (which I find ridiculous), we got along. We ate meals together, we went to Target together to get supplies and gave each other a hug when it was time to say goodbye.

On my drive home H called me and said THANK YOU for handling S18's move - he appreciated all the hard work and planning that went into it. Well knock me over with a feather! I just told him I appreciated him saying that and yes, it's a lot of work.

Other than that it's been quiet from H side. I'm piling up his mail. He ordered something and it arrived here and I assume he'll figure that out at some point. I had to communicate with him re: my dogs and we are still on group chat with the boys but I am laying low regarding my plans, whereabouts etc. and he is doing same.

The other thing that happened is that when I was talking to S20 today he said, "Dad says hi." I asked him for clarification - your father said tell Mom hi? S20 said yes. That is classic H. Do everything except communicate directly. I just said "Ok" - not "say hi back" or anything like that .

It reminded me of the time when I was on a work trip and my phone wasn't receiving texts, so instead of CALLING ME or CALLING THE HOTEL he went on Facebook and tried to reach out to my friends who were on the trip with me - it was so weird.

I've been GAL'ing plenty - I had 2 amazing GAL activities today and more lined up over the next few weeks - even turned down a GAL! Not feeling sad or sorry for myself. My friends are a little envious of my "no H house", LOL!

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

Congratulations on son enrolled in college!

Being an empty nester takes a bit to get used to. Yes, lots of peace and quiet. And freedom.

It is great to declutter and organize.

Glad the dropping son off went well. Nice to see H being supportive.

Hope you’re having a great weekend.

D

[RegretfulLA]

Thank you D! Yesterday 3 friends stopped by... each unrelated to the other... one dropping stuff off, one picking stuff up and one for a walk. Friends call to check in. The boys are both doing great. Feeling like my life is quite full.

Just between us, part of my organizing glee is that I get to throw away some of the stuff that H has been keeping around like empty pill bottles and other garbage like that. Nothing of value, I'm not trying to be vindictive. Makes me feel like I'm regaining control and I go to bed happy.

He ordered something in the mail and I didn't bother to tell him about it... seems he has forgotten he ordered it so it will sit here for the next month until he comes to watch my dogs while I am on a business trip.

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Y'all,
Just a quick check in and a few updates.

First - I am doing great! Still making a lot of progress clearing out junk. Not having H around makes me feel "unburdened". It is nice not to have to worry about him, what he is doing, what he thinks, what he's going to think, what he's going to do, what he's going to say. So freeing.

I never realized how much his negativity was affecting me. I was trying to push it off to one side, but it was still there. I feel like I'm winning here.

Second - H has come around for the past 2 weeks to get his mail. I wasn't home either time, but he contacted me before coming. Both times he brought the trash barrels to the street before leaving which I thought was considerate. I think he must miss being here and he misses our dogs too.

He texted me a book he has been reading called "Wired for Love: How Understanding your Partner's Brain and Attachment Style Can Help You Defuse Conflict and Build a Secure Relationship." (I'm not recommending the book - i'm just telling you). This is significant because I have never known H to read ANY books about relationships - EVER. The books he reads are philosophy books which aren't helpful at all. This one is written by an actual psychologist!

I also know he has been going to therapy because he sent me the bills. Ha ha.

Also, the fact that H texted me either meant he wanted me to know he was reading it and/or he wants me to read it - he said "This is a good read."

It's a step in the right direction. One step of many, but you have to start somewhere.

[RegretfulLA]

Checking in. I feel like I've lost a bit of momentum over the last week or 2.

Life has calmed down a little bit. I haven't had as many plans and I haven't had that much to look forward to. Next on the list is going to visit S18 at college, and then Thanksgiving, which I'm excited about, though not sure if H will turn up or not.

I haven't really been talking to H, but I did have to call upon him to help me move some furniture from my office to my home. That's coming up later this week. He agreed to do it without hesitation. (He didn't take out the trash this week - oh well!) He texted me this morning - he is at a conference in Las Vegas and his start up company is a featured partner in the booth of a well-known large company. Unusual as normally he posts stuff like that in the family chat, but, ok. That was nice. He was clearly pretty excited about it.

Something sad happened in my life last week as well. I had recently been spending a lot of time with this gay man at work - I called him my Gay Boyfriend. We would eat lunch together, go to events together and even did a couple things on the weekends. It was a nice relationship and of course, no pressure or awkwardness because he's gay. I have actually known him a long time but we only became closer this year.

Anyway - one day last week I tried to instant message him through our work system and his name wasn't coming up, so I went down to his desk and it had been completely cleaned out. To say I was shocked was an understatement. I couldn't imagine that he had been fired, but quitting so abruptly also made no sense. On Thursday everything was fine, he was let go on Friday and I didn't find out until Tuesday. When I contacted him he was, I don't know, weird. And like, rushed, or something. Said he was having a lot of family drama and needed to go back home to his family (across the country). Didn't admit to being fired. Said he quit and that didn't sit right with me at all. Being lied to felt like a violation, but I think it was self protective. I could see right then that things between us had changed.

Well - I've been thinking about this a lot. Gay Boyfriend was a good term. He pumped me up, he told me I looked nice, he listened, he was supportive, he liked to go places, etc. And I didn't realize how attached I'd gotten. I was really using him as a surrogate for a real boyfriend at a time when I don't want an actual boyfriend. Now he's disappeared into thin air, so it FEELS like a rejection even though I know none of this has anything to do with me. I reached out to him today to see how his mom was doing (because he said she'd been in a car accident) and I got no reply. Hopefully that doesn't mean something terrible has happened, but I hope he's just licking his wounds and feels embarrassed.

I bring all of this up in such detail because I'm surprised at how deeply affected I was. It was all so abrupt and unexpected - like a death. I feel like I'm grieving the loss of the friendship. In fact one day I felt so sad that when I was texting H for some procedural item I asked him how he was doing. Felt the need to connect. He actually asked me how I was doing too. I don't know, maybe that opened something up. Honestly, I feel sadder about Gay BF than I did when H walked out. That says something. With H it was a slow slide but I have to say I never felt sad... I just felt angry and resentful.

[RegretfulLA]

Now he's disappeared into thin air, so it FEELS like a rejection even though I know none of this has anything to do with me.

I meant to say - it feels like rejection and abandonment - kind of a repeat of what has just happened with H leaving. I know this is not true or even rational, it's purely emotional. Sometimes our heart wins out over our head, which is part of why I feel so crappy about it.

(@DnJ please tell me how to edit, I didn't see an option to change my post)

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

There is a ten minute window to edit after initial posting. During this time an <edit> button - next to the <like>, <reply>, and <quote> buttons - is available.

If the editing window has elapsed, a follow up post to further/clarify information works well. (Which I think is the case here. )

Moderators can edit/delete without time limit. If you have a required edit or deletion (example too much personal information) just let me know and I will look after it. Usually, just create a post within your thread with the requested changes, I’ll make the changes and delete the requesting post.

There is also a sticky thread “Notifications / Contacting a Moderator” in each forum as well. This can also be utilized. It is more meant as a work around for the nonfunctional notifications/reporting.


Your work colleague’s sudden departure would be a shock. And yes, rejection and abandonment would be felt, given his aftermath behaviour.

It sounds like GBF was fired (you mentioned he was let go) and he lied about it. Likely him trying to save face. His reactions have nothing to do with you. Sudden firing is usually a disciplinary response, more than from a performance issue. Culpable vs non-culpable.

You’ve reached out (across country). For now, grieve the friendship and work relationship. (((Hugs)))

D

[RegretfulLA]

Ok, this thread is about to get pretty interesting.

Just to cover off on the Gay BF topic,

It sounds like GBF was fired (you mentioned he was let go) and he lied about it. Likely him trying to save face. His reactions have nothing to do with you. Sudden firing is usually a disciplinary response, more than from a performance issue. Culpable vs non-culpable.

I heard from a friend that he was making inappropriate comments (in a joking way... but still wrong) and that's likely what happened - he was fired for sexual harassment. I did hear from him, but of course now he's gone and I won't see him again for a long time (if ever again, honestly).

But the real reason I am back tonight is that while I was cleaning up I found some notebooks of H's.

Not that any of this comes as a shock, but it seems that H was pretty deeply infatuated with a woman who worked for him at his old job (2017-2021). He really struggled with it and I believe THAT was the onset of the MLC. Around 2019 things between us were terrible but they got better during the pandemic. No idea of the real timing of any of this dalliance, but I will say now I really understand why he hated that job - because it was painful to be around this woman that he "loved". (I had no idea about this BTW)

Some highlights:
- Lots of thoughts about how attracted he was to her in every way - young, hot, beautiful, fun, so amazing, whatever
- They had a zoom meeting every day that he really looked forward to
- He was desperately infatuated with her, but it seems that a line was never crossed
- That he felt extremely jealous when she told him about her dates
- He was aware of the personal and professional risks
- He spent a lot of time contemplating why he couldn't be free to pursue this woman and then he chided himself about even thinking he had a chance with her. But he mentioned that it boosted his ego to spend time with this young wonderful woman "who made him so happy"
- He fancied that rejection turned him on - he "enjoyed the torture"
- He reflected on his shame and insecurity but he never did reflect on why he is that way.
- Acknowledged that his shame and insecurity affected our marriage.

(As an aside, the notebook was funny in ways - first of all, he has the worst handwriting of all time and I could barely read a lot of it, but second of all there would be these outpourings followed by run of the mill work stuff followed by more outpourings.)

There was not much mention of me in it... not surprising. I went through a very similar deep infatuation myself many years ago (except I was not the person's boss). H was the last thing I was thinking about. And, not for nothing, that guy also vanished and moved across the world though I knew that was coming and could at least get some closure.

But there was one mention of me. He said:
"I'm such a fool. A fool? For wanting to really connect in a loving way with a beautiful young woman... that's what life is about. Life is about chasing ephemeral ice cream when you have a sustainable healthy meal to eat? What if you just went for love with Regretful? So dangerous... is it that Regretful doesn't love me or is that I am wired to experience Regretful as not loving me? Am I wired to feel rejection?

Ugh, this is so sad. I feel really bad for him.

So that was notebook #1.

Notebook #2 - there wasn't much in it, but there was one passage where he's talking about some woman and her sharing her fantasies with him and it's definitely clear they were sleeping together - and this was obviously before he moved out because he left the notebook here. Even though when I directly questioned him, he denied cheating. So now he's cheating AND lying.

Now... how do I feel about this?

Numb.

Annoyed.

Annoyed that I have to probably get a D.

Feeling like he's a total lost cause.

Feeling extremely betrayed.

Feeling super sorry for him.

Not very surprised.

Angry.

Disappointed.

Shut out.

Disrespected.

Emotionally exhausted and bereft. Nothing left to feel.

Etc.

And, I have to see him tomorrow, he's helping me with something that I can't do by myself. I have no idea how to address any of this with him - if I should say anything or just keep these aces up my sleeve. Especially the cheating one. My thought is to hold onto this and not give my hand away just yet. Sorry for all the poker references.

[RegretfulLA]

Sorry one more thing
He met the woman on an app called FEELD which "includes people who identify with a variety of sexual identities and desires, including polyamory, consensual non-monogamy and kink."

UGH - no judgement here - but NOT FOR ME!

UGH UGH UGH UGH UGH

I think the Universe is telling me it's time to move on.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

I’d keep this knowledge to yourself. No point confronting H. Even if you decided to divorce, a more amicable H would be better to negotiate with.

His notebooks truly illustrate how broken he is. Remember, you didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him. H needs to do a lot of inner work, likely with the help and guidance of a good counselor. And of course, H need to be ready to actually reach out and do said work.

Am I wired to feel rejection?

There is plenty of sad stuff within H’s notebook. However, this snippet speaks to that underlying, unreconciled, past trauma. Just imagine the neglect, torment, etc, during his early childhood informative years to foster such a self loathing and belief that he is unlovable and to always be rejected.

Such are the seeds of crisis and torment and turmoil. Now, in the waning of his life, so much feels unfulfilled, so much comes bubbling to the surface, so much will no longer remain silent. Such a lost soul.


I do empathize with your feelings. Let them go. Work through them, and let go. Take no actions based upon them. Base your course upon rational reason.

D

[DnJ]

I have no idea how to address any of this with him.

Just pack up H’s notebooks, along with other things of his. When/if he wants some of his belonging, or you decide to get some of his stuff out of the house and into his apartment, give him the boxes.

[MamaG]

My eye caught the same sentence DnJ highlights. "am I wired to feel rejection." I'm actually impressed that he has such awareness and a strong enough thought to capture in a notebook.
Either way, his coping mechanisms are less than welcomed and I understand your feelings. I empathize, as this certainly confirms MLC in case you were uncertain.

Based on all I've read, confronting him about these findings wouldn't help any. He'll likely deny/lie and it'll somehow be addressed as your fault.

MG

[grok]

I have no idea how to address any of this with him.

Just pack up H’s notebooks, along with other things of his. When/if he wants some of his belonging, or you decide to get some of his stuff out of the house and into his apartment, give him the boxes.

This reminds me of some advice I see repeated in older threads…when the question was “what do I do now that I found out XXXX was going on?”

The answer in the form of questions-
Snooping can inform you as to what is / they think is going on, but.

Does knowing change what you should be doing? i.e. GAL, detach, etc…

Does knowing change what you would require of him?

The answer almost always seems to be that it doesn’t change either one.

The snooping does let you know where they are at in exchange for larger injury to your heart and soul.

g

[RegretfulLA]

Thank you all. This was certainly the most unwelcome news, but on the other hand, I think I really needed this slap in the face. I realize that I still was carrying around some hope that H and I would reconcile and that things would be like they were at the beginning of our marriage. Now that I have had a good glimpse inside his head, I see that this is foolish.

But there's more to tell.

First of all...

After I checked in here yesterday with this bombshell I continued to look for other notebooks and I found one with some stuff in there. It contained 2 passages of considerable note. One was him working out a note/letter that he was writing to someone. Didn't say who he was writing to, but I knew exactly who it was because he referenced by name this woman's girlfriend coming back into the picture, and I was familiar with the players in that story. He was trying to figure out how to tell her that now that the girlfriend is back, he feels like she doesn't have enough time for him and it upsets him. That's he's low priority. And that he would hate to give up "their friendship benefits" or something like that - and they should not "make plans" any more.

Unfortunately, the woman he was writing the letter to has the same name as the woman he referenced in the other notebook re: affair. I thought she was a random that he had met on that site, but no. This woman is someone he worked with, someone who I understood to be gay. In fact, when I first read the affair diary entry, which contained a name, it I wondered if it could be that woman, but no, I thought, she's gay. He mentioned that she was someone who slept with "dozens of men and women" (including him! Yippee!) This, combined with the other letter, all but confirms her identity. And also, the breakup letter was written BEFORE the diary entry. So who knows how long this has been going on. I've also now realized that the BDSM/Polyamory books that I discovered (the very first clue in this whole saga) were in RESPONSE to the affair with this woman.

Having all of those pieces fall into place was a sick realization. Didn't sleep too well last night.

The second thing -
There was one entry about his mother. He rarely reflects upon his mom but I think she is at the root of his problems, having abandoned the family when he was a young teen. Anyway, in this particular post he said that he felt like she broke up with him and his sense of abandonment was very, very, very high.

He also said that he felt like he was disappointing everyone, including our dogs.

Also, kind of unfortunately, I already had this plan with him to help me move a heavy piece of furniture from my office to my house. So I had to face him today fresh off the confirmation that he's a liar and a cheater with me feeling hurt but of course wanting his attention/approval. I wanted to ask him SO BADLY how long this has been going on, and I wanted to prove I knew all about everything. But I didn't. What I said was, at some point, I would like to know the truth from you. He said, the truth is that we're on a trial separation. The truth is that I was unhappy in our marriage. I said, "I know we're on a trial separation. I think you know what I mean when I am asking you to tell me the truth." No accusations, no big zingers.

A couple other realizations:

• He's beyond broken - it's very sad - wish I could help him but how can I when he's so afraid of rejection? Everything I would say to help would get turned around into a rejection. As you say, DnJ, I didn't break him and I can't fix him.
• In the act of trying to fix himself, he broke our marriage. I actually said this to him. He said maybe I was right.
• The information I read in the notebooks was information that I didn't want but that I needed so I could have the firepower to move forward.
• For better or for worse, I still love him. I want to hate him, but I love him which makes this extra difficult. I did NOT say that to him.
• Regardless of the fact that I love him, it's not healthy for me to be married to him anymore and now I have to grieve the end of the marriage.
• I can relate this well to the 5 stages of grief: Denial (what I was in for the last 3 years), Anger (when he dropped bomb and continued more destructive behavior), Bargaining (where I have been since he walked out - hopeful that we could continue), Depression (where i am now for sure), Acceptance (where I hope to end up)

I started asking around for names of lawyers today. It is time to at least get some info. To take the first step.

And to address the comments:

The answer in the form of questions-
Snooping can inform you as to what is / they think is going on, but.

Does knowing change what you should be doing? i.e. GAL, detach, etc…

Does knowing change what you would require of him?

The answer almost always seems to be that it doesn’t change either one.

The snooping does let you know where they are at in exchange for larger injury to your heart and soul.

Actually, I do think that knowing changes what I should be doing; e.g., going to L. And reading all about his inner turmoil has made me feel pretty sorry for him. So while I would not excuse all of his bad behavior, I realize that he's not capable of being a good husband and it's not really his fault or his choice. He can't be emotionally supportive or vulnerable in any way. Knowing has snapped me out of any hope that this is repairable. I need to give up on that foolish fantasy once and for all.

I am thinking of trying that exercise where you write a letter to the person to get your thoughts and feelings out but you never send it. As a young woman I used to write these letters all the time to help me get closure (back when we actually wrote letters).

[Caligirl]

RegretfulLA,

It is always interesting to hear other stitches. One part of yours that sticks out to me is the entry about his mother to go back and write about that as an adult . I recently found out my H s parents didn’t abandon him but they left him with family for an extended period . He also has a minimal relationship with his father that he in the last few weeks has begun to really open up about . I find I don’t use this as an excuse for cheating but I find the correlation rather high .

I didn’t mean to but I did chuckle at the dog guilt your wrote about . Same thing over here . I remember 5 years ago H moved out for a period of time . He would come pick up the kids and run crazy with the dog . To almost ease his mind that he abandoned the dog .

Your thoughts about you love him but it’s not healthy hit my heart today . Same emotions over here .

Put the notebooks away . Stop looking . You have seen and been through enough . You have a good idea of how deep he is in. H is in la la land thinking this is a trial separation . Just remember it takes 2 people to end a trial . You may be far gone emotionally and healed if or when he wants to end the trial. I’m finding on my end H wants to go back to the way things were many many years ago . Unfortunately whether we like to admit it or not we will never be the same as we once were . We also come out of this changed with different wants , needs or views on how we want our marriage to look and feel .

[RegretfulLA]

I’m finding on my end H wants to go back to the way things were many many years ago . Unfortunately whether we like to admit it or not we will never be the same as we once were . We also come out of this changed with different wants , needs or views on how we want our marriage to look and feel .

Key thought here... I found I was clinging to the hope that we could indeed return to the way things once were... but that was before kids, before cancer, before losing jobs and taking on massive debt, before hurts and injustices and just LIFE. It is not possible. The R itself is living and breathing - and just like we can't go back in time and be our 30 year old selves again, neither can a relationship. When we hope, we imagine the way we want things to be, not the way they actually are.

It is amazing how much my mindset has changed over the last few days. I went from unsure and maybe even a little bit hopeful to definitely in the D camp. Sometimes you just have to know when to call it.

Over the last 2 days I've shared my story with a few close friends and one friend who isn't so close but who's H up and left. That friend got D and she's with someone new and very happy. It was good to talk to someone on the other side. None of these friends are in H's circle. Knowing I have so much support around is really comforting. I am lucky!

My plan now is to start interviewing L's and get my ducks in a row and start preparing for D. I am not going to say anything about this to H or to tip my hand with regards to what I know. That is all for me to use when the time comes. I am trying to stay a few steps ahead here. The notebooks are safe at my office. He can't get them and I can't open them up in the middle of the night either in a moment of weakness.

I have also decided that it's not fair that H gets to lie to me about his transgressions. Why do I have to bear the brunt of the pain while he gets to spare himself by lying to me? (although, I suspect that the lies are causing him tremendous guilt which explains his eagerness to help me). I'll also say, that regardless of the big, big, big, big, big, big mistake that H has made, if he had taken one of the opportunities that I gave him to come clean, I might see some hope in the situation. But, given that he cheated AND lied, and continues to do so, I do not see how this is repairable.

So, given that I have made this decision - am I allowed to still post here? This isn't exactly DB'ing, but it is taking back my power and finally acting in my own best interest.

[RegretfulLA]

Ok I'm back.
I'm going over some of MY old journals now (password protected!!)

A lot went on in 2012 and 2019 that I had forgotten about, but the long and the short of it is, I really felt rejected and not listened to in this M. And so, when the opportunity arose, I found solace in the company of other men (2010-2012). Not PA. 1 EA and one revenge thing which turned into sexting. H in all his insecurity made it into a capital offense and threatened D and emailed my parents and told the world that I cheated on him and that is how I came to the DB community.

Anyway, I thought I would give you all a laugh.

A list of my problems, according to H

Psychological problems
Narcissist
Sociopath
Asperger’s syndrome
Needs therapy
Needs “help”
“Sick”
Needs antidepressants
Compartmentalizer
Lunatic

Animals
Sewer rat
Shrew
Dinosaur
Albatross

Character flaws
Unfaithful
Untrustworthy
Hypocrite
Devious
Sneaky
Suspicious
Passive aggressive
Controlling, Control freak
Evil

Personality Defects
Lack of empathy
Self absorbed
Defective
Mean/Not Nice
Insensitive
Deeply envious
Cheap
Negative
“Glass half empty”
The most annoying person in the world

Competency shortcomings
Incompetent
Bad mother
No social skills
Can’t hold a job

Physical problems
Hearing problem/Deaf
Blind

General slurs
No class
Loser/ Loser friends
A baby
Disgusting
Garbage
Hates men
Pathetic
Broken
Worthless
“Sour old bag”

If this is the person he married, what does that say about HIM?

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

It is amazing how much my mindset has changed over the last few days. I went from unsure and maybe even a little bit hopeful to definitely in the D camp. Sometimes you just have to know when to call it.

Only you will know when you have done all you can.

A mindset change of two days sounds emotion-driven. Let the feelings settle and consider/ensure your decision again through the lens of logic. You have time, nothing major need happen right away.

My plan now is to start interviewing L's and get my ducks in a row and start preparing for D.

It’s a good idea to gain information and insight into the process and your rights and responsibilities.

So, given that I have made this decision - am I allowed to still post here? This isn't exactly DB'ing, but it is taking back my power and finally acting in my own best interest.

Yes, you can post.

DBing is not a guarantee. One who embraces it will save themselves, and give themselves the best chance at saving their marriage. However, it takes two to make a relationship. You only control your half of that.

In some cases divorce is not the end of the story. The “old” marriage is dead, regardless of a piece of paper or not, and if the couple is going to go forward a new relationship is going to be needed.

D

[RegretfulLA]

In some cases divorce is not the end of the story. The “old” marriage is dead, regardless of a piece of paper or not, and if the couple is going to go forward a new relationship is going to be needed.

I love that.

I feel like H crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed. It was the lying more than the cheating. I can understand cheating but i cannot understand lying.

H’s birthday is Saturday. I sent him a book about healing the inner child with a note that I hoped this would bring him peace. I am not sure what his therapist is doing but it’s not working very well.

I was not planning on doing anything for him but after some intense 4 am journaling this is what i decided was needed. You are right, DnJ - H is on his own sad path. And i think the healthiest thing for me to do is leave him.

[RegretfulLA]

H received and was appreciative of the book and said he'd read it. Before he moved out he was not open at all to any sort of self help in the form of a book - at least not any book that I could offer.

Finding myself incredibly angry and spitting venom into my set of locked One Note documents. I guess it's just how I have to process this. I have to go to work, leave this bottled up all day and then I come home and need to release all the thoughts that have built up during the day.

I am sleeping better at least.

One thing - I had a business trip this week and H came to my/our house to watch my dogs while I was gone. Yesterday he left the house at noon and texted me to ask if dogs should be in or out because he was going to be gone all day and not back until late. The neighbor brought the dogs in and he never made it back here until 10 am the next day.

I asked him to take care of my dogs and he left them alone for 22 hours.

Denies that the reason he went back to his own house had anything to do with the plans he made all day/night.

I came home from business trip and spoke to him as he was here with my dogs. I'm really too upset to want to see him or talk to him but yet I still find myself really wanting his approval. I've always sought his approval and he made a habit of withholding it, which made me want it more. It's even worse now that he's been with someone else.

At least he is making it easy for me to follow through with my resolve to D.

My work for me now is to figure out why I put up with so much rejection from him. Why it took something completely shocking and jarring to allow me to see our negative patterns of relating. And why I STILL want his approval, despite all that has happened.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

Sorry about your dogs. Glad your neighbour brought them back inside.

Crisis folks have the attention span of a gnat. Their memories are like a sieve, except for anything we do or say that can be used against us, then it’s like a steel trap.

They become rather irresponsible as well, flaking on kinds of important things. They miss appointments, birthdays, work, and so on.

These folks have broken empathy chips. Remember their path is emotionally driven. Their feelings are cranked right to eleven. They have no bandwidth for anyone or anything else.

Depression is ever present for them. And their perception of time is quite odd. Brooding, sitting alone, and of course running - hours, days, weeks pass by.

MLCers will flake on responsibilities. Most become terrible parents (and pet sitters). The best you can do is to not count on them for really important stuff. Heck, any stuff. Find another way.


I’m glad you found a safe and healthy release for the perfectly normal anger you are feeling.

Physical activity is also quite good at purging the venom we feel. Sweating it out. Run, punch the heck out of a punch bag, dig a garden, stack firewood, etc. I found cutting firewood - the operating of dangerous implements - best left to calmer times. Do more manual labor than skill-based labor during angry times. Less injuries, less breaking things.

My work for me now is to figure out why I put up with so much rejection from him. Why it took something completely shocking and jarring to allow me to see our negative patterns of relating. And why I STILL want his approval, despite all that has happened.

Good valid inner work to dig into.

Figuring out why will take time. However, you know and see the what. What you’ve being putting up with. And what you’re still looking for.

When you feel yourself looking for his approval - big red stop sign. Let go. Detach. Act as if.

Your approval is paramount. Not his. Discover your convictions. And…

Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which you aspire to. Discard/alter that which no longer serves.

You are the most important person in this equation. Your standards and tenets matter most.

D

[MamaG]

Happy Friday!

H received and was appreciative of the book and said he'd read it. Before he moved out he was not open at all to any sort of self help in the form of a book - at least not any book that I could offer.

Let me know if you ever learn that he reads it. I've considered doing the same but don't want to interrupt the journey. H's bday is later this month. I will be following his lead on the gift front as mine is before his in November. Should I get a lil something, I'm thinking he could use a good read. Hoping yours reads it and reports back on his learnings. Wouldn't that be insightful?!

Finding myself incredibly angry and spitting venom into my set of locked One Note documents. I guess it's just how I have to process this. I have to go to work, leave this bottled up all day and then I come home and need to release all the thoughts that have built up during the day.

Yup. I feel ya. Journaling helped me through this weekend. I kept replaying the events and you saw what I processed through journaling. Hard, but it works. Do more of what works and less of what doesn't.

My work for me now is to figure out why I put up with so much rejection from him. Why it took something completely shocking and jarring to allow me to see our negative patterns of relating. And why I STILL want his approval, despite all that has happened.

I'm sorry to hear about poochies. I imagine, it was hard to learn they were neglected. Hi is in a fog. Unless I'm looking to do a gut check like this weekend (after 5 months of no contact), I no longer ask for help from H. For me, it was more that he'd 'forget' to come to do x and I could feel myself getting sad, mad, rejected. I don't feel rejected anymore...bc I don't ask him anymore. It also fits nicely into detaching.

Got any plans for this weekend? What fun GALing are you looking forward to?

[RegretfulLA]

Mama/DnJ -
Big hugs and thank yous... this board is a lifesaver. Your thoughtful and insightful input is so helpful - you have no idea.

I was just starting to feel better and back to normal, when today I found out more.

I realized that I have access to H's calendar so of course I looked at it.

What I found out:
He's been making plans with the woman from the journal and they are calendaring it!

This is very stupid. She's a lawyer. She should know that when you use your retirement funds to pay for an affair, it counts against you. Now I have proof. He traveled with her. I have screen shots. The fact that I can use this against him makes me feel a little better, but right now all I feel is intense rage.

Seems this is an ongoing relationship/affair. She keeps a private calendar to calendar their events (not her personal calendar but it comes from her email; it's definitely the person I thought it was). I wonder if she is also cheating?

I am struggling with the rage right now. I need to keep this all a secret from him so I can get what I need in the D. I have to be strategic. It is taking every bit of my strength not to confront him. To confront her. But I know that I need to keep an eye on the calendar and continue to gather evidence, as much as it upsets me.

After work, I got in my car, screamed 4 times, cried, and then I talked to my sister on my drive home. Then I got one of his surfboards, wrote 'CHEATING LYING [Censored] [Censored] [Censored]' all over it and then hacked at it with a pickaxe. I feel better now.

I changed my password at work to be an acronym of "why would you want to be with someone so weak" (a mantra of mine) so that I could remember it several times a day. Changing my master password too away from H's old pet name for me to something empowering. I haven't decided on that yet.

I scheduled call with L for tomorrow.

All these things help me take back my power. The fury of betrayal motivates me to take action. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me, including getting cancer while I was pregnant.

Next step is to work on my financial plan so I can go in there prepared. I intend to file first. I'm really scared about how this is going to work out financially, but I am the one who controls the purse strings. This is to my advantage.

I know none of this is in the spirit of DB, but what I take from the book and from this group is the idea that I do have some control. That I can be intentional about my actions. That by being intentional, I can benefit. That I am not helpless in an otherwise horrible situation. Believe me, I am no longer interested in getting H back. The only way I would even consider taking him back is if he had a complete come to Jesus moment and was able to truly work on himself and be 100% truthful with me. So far, I see no evidence that that will happen, aside from some regret in his voice when we talk. I would like to think that H feels some sort of shame for treating me this way, but maybe he doesn't. I know he carries around a lot of shame in general. Maybe part of him is doing this so he can "prove" that I love him. This is the part that I need to let go: the hope that we will repair our marriage - and this might be the hardest thing.

I wonder - if he came back and said he wanted to work on the marriage - would I? In the absence of him coming clean about the A, no. I would not. One of my favorite people says "Watch what they DO, not what they SAY!"

I told my mother my intentions to D and she was as empathetic as she could be, which is to say, she did not miss her calling as a therapist. When I went through first DB in 2012 she was mostly focused on making sure that I was not going to leave the brass andirons in my fireplace behind. I am not kidding about that. This is adding to my disappointment. She is not very supportive, although i know she wants to be.

[grok]

Hey RegretfulLA,

I was just starting to feel better and back to normal, when today I found out more.

I realized that I have access to H's calendar so of course I looked at it.

Oh yes, that snooping. And when you find what you are not being told. A real gut punch. I ... was not myself for a couple of months.

The only way I would even consider taking him back is if he had a complete come to Jesus moment and was able to truly work on himself and be 100% truthful with me. So far, I see no evidence that that will happen, aside from some regret in his voice when we talk. I would like to think that H feels some sort of shame for treating me this way, but maybe he doesn't.

And when you compare Sandi's list of what it requires to reconcile, you realize just how far away from current reality ... that dream is.

After work, I got in my car, screamed 4 times, cried, and then I talked to my sister on my drive home. Then I got one of his surfboards, wrote 'CHEATING LYING [Censored] [Censored] [Censored]' all over it and then hacked at it with a pickaxe. I feel better now.

Do it some more. And let it out. You have to, in bits. My sister told me she used to go for walks in the forest and "whack every tree with a big stick... my hands hurt after but I felt better for a while."

I know none of this is in the spirit of DB, but what I take from the book and from this group is the idea that I do have some control. That I can be intentional about my actions. That by being intentional, I can benefit. That I am not helpless in an otherwise horrible situation.

No, I'd say it is in the spirit of DB. You have defined conditions/boundary under which a R can work for YOU. Making your changes and maybe they will want to come along for the journey. It is not about waiting around forever.

I'm really scared about how this is going to work out financially

Fear. Yes, I have had it. Less now. Though financially this will set me back 10+ years. Half of our combined assets. One more year of 25% of my income to alimony (I'm looking at it as paying for my kids private teacher...thanks my sister for that frame!).

Litany Against Fear - Dune by Frank Herbert

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Face the fear. Let it flow through and go. YOU remain.

It is not what you (I) wanted or ever imagined ... but your future is calling!

Faith

Future's Calling - Apollo LTD

Is anyone out there?
Is anyone listening?
Is there any path to understand
Or is it just a mystery?
...
Hello human
Hello suffering
It's hard to reconcile what is
And the way it was meant to be
But something's about to givе
Standing on the brink
...
I know you're lonely
And you're broken-hearted
Always fighting to find your way
You're barely holding on, holding on, holding on
All you need is just a little faith
The future's calling your name

g

[RegretfulLA]

Thank you Grok. This is hard. You've been there. You know how devastating this is.

Only thing to do now is work on me, work on letting go. Plan an H-less future. Try to come to terms with the fact that H isn't a good guy, or at the very least, he's not a good H.

I'm beginning to see this separation as a tremendous gift. It has allowed me to discover what I needed to discover in order to move on, and has given me the blessing of space and time to process and plan in total solitude. It has allowed me to truly understand the reality of what has been happening vs. my skewed/wishful thinking that H would somehow take his leave, come back, and be ready to start fresh. I have come to realize that he took this break not to think about things and work on our marriage, but to see if things will work out with OW/AP. He has been cake eating all this time. I have no idea how I would be doing this if H were still here.

I still have feelings for H, as is quite common among us LBS. I have made an embarrassingly long list of all the things he did that hurt me in our marriage, along with how that made me feel. Reading it, I'm ashamed that I stayed, and I'm incredibly thankful that I finally have the guts to D. I wish it had not come to betrayal, but that is what it took for me to finally wake up. I look at the list when I need a reminder of why I need to D and it helps. I haven't yet internalized it. I'm still clinging to what was, or what I hoped for.

Despite his devious and malignant behavior, I still see him as a broken little boy looking for mommy (which doesn't make for a great spouse), and I feel bad for him. I was with him for half of my life, and I've known him for more than 2/3 of it. I will know him for the rest of it, since we share two children. Having read those journals, I got an insight into some of his pain. This is not an excuse but he sought validation/self acceptance from OW/AP and it's sad that he was broken enough to do that. This is why I sent him that book.

I was tested for all STDs and thankfully all negative. Low risk since it's been over a year w H but I know he was with her prior to that.

On boundaries - they are the only thing that we can control in an otherwise uncontrollable situation. I had really lost sight of mine and was letting him walk all over me in some futile hope that he would/could love me.

Grateful for you all.