Detaching & setting boundaries w/ clingy boomerang

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

And now I question if that was the right decision. With this being his blood family, should I have taken a back seat? Asked him if he would want me to attend?

Don’t fret over it.

SIL invited you. (Along with the kids and H.) It’s not up to H if you can attend or not.

It can be tricky/difficult with “family related by marriage”. Post divorce is especially so, as one is no longer related. Some aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews relationships remain and others fade. If it gets to that point (divorced), time will tell. For me, I have mostly no contact with any of XW’s blood family. Only one of her cousins and I still exchange Christmas cards and pictures, though it’s likely to keep the door open to my kids as XW pretty much has nothing to do with the kids nor her family.

[H] Didn't attend the large volunteering event over Labor day weekend. A dog, antidepressants - neither of which I've been made aware of. And silent. No outreaches at all. What do we deduct? Could he be in depression/withdrawal?

Possibly.

I suspect H is starting to look inward. Maybe even has been for a while. What direction his journey will go is unknown. Time will tell.

Like you said, stage watching is not all that helpful. (Perfectly normal, just not too helpful. ) And MLCer’s are embroiled in running for a long time.

True, there has been a change in H’s outward behaviours. Let him be, and keep moving forward. And keep living and loving life.

It’s perfectly fine to have hope, just keep the expectations at zero.

I’ve not had opportunity to try Pitch yet. I’m considering forming a card playing group.

Have a great Sunday. I’m going to paint another window before the snow starts flying around here. lol.

D

[MamaG]

Hi DnJ!

I’m going to paint another window before the snow starts flying around here.

Did you use the 's' word? Goodness, that's early for me to hear such a word. Did you end up with accumulation? Do you have heavy winters? I don't expect any until Dec at the earliest.

I'm not sure that I knew you were painting windows. I assume your home's windows...on the inside since it's snowing. Projects are never ending.

We play pitch again tonight. Let's see how we do. If nothing else, it's a nice night out that we both look forward to. Give it a try and lmk what you think. I've been playing for many years so it comes easy at this point and can help you with strategies.

It can be tricky/difficult with “family related by marriage”. Post divorce is especially so, as one is no longer related. Some aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews relationships remain and others fade. If it gets to that point (divorced), time will tell.

Divorce is not common in our families so this will be interesting. For now, while I'm not close with most of his family, we celebrate EVERYTHING so I'll likely continue to be invited to bigger events. Not holidays so much as graduations, etc. I've already been told that I'm invited to our flower girl's wedding next year (his family). H's family hasn't seen much of H but they definitely think he's nuts to leave me and they are concerned with changes he's visibly made. Still, I recognize they can drop me at any point...especially if an AP is introduced. (No one knows about any AP - let's keep it that way.)

Knowing what I know about MLC, I'm leaning towards H may continue his avoidance behaviors and not attend at all. If I ask him to pick me up, I suspect he'd be open to it and would attend - much like taking me to dr appts. That doesn't make it the right idea. What are your thoughts? While I've considered texting H about going together (to ease his discomfort), I don't want to make the wrong move and therefore I haven't reached out. D has already decided that she won't attend which bums me out. I'm really seeing lots of avoidance behaviors in D. Concerning for sure.

And MLCer’s are embroiled in running for a long time.

I would even guess that H's ego and stubbornness will keep him away longer than he'd like. This here is what I'd like to not be true. H is a brilliant man - I wouldn't just say that - and I have all the confidence that he'll look inward and to your point, may have already begun to. That doesn't mean that he's willing to bruise his ego and return home. In time, it may have to be me who breaks the ice with SMART contact. For now, I'm holding out.

Spent the better part of the weekend with D and just learned that she is not feeling well - basically was asked to leave class today due to a cough. I took the day off tomorrow and will be playing nurse for my D. D requested soup, OJ and comforts of home. I'll be making the trip to the university tomorrow. Let's hope I don't come down with something.

D, BF, S and GF are coming for a chili charcuterie board lunch on Sunday - looking forward to the 5 of us. H isn't invited. Oh well.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I’m painting the outside trim of the windows. Working at getting finished before the weather turns.

I got the first coat of paint on. The next day the wind picked up! The following day even stronger winds; gusts 90km+. Far too windy to be on an extension ladder.

The particular window I’m working on is a second floor one. So with ladder leaning on the stone sill, I’m standing fifteen feet in the air tip-toed on the third rung from the top to reach the high part. Nothing to hang onto either. So, I put it off for a calmer day.

Well, the winds knocks down a tree across the driveway, and rips down a few in the yard. More work. Although less weather dependent.

Next day I wake up to 2C (35F). Brrrrr. Too cold for painting. Now I’m in goldilocks-land to get the painting finished.

Next day, things brighten up. 16C, breezy, from the west so house is blocking the winds. I get the second coat on. The other windows can wait until next year.

Snow, sometimes falls early October. November is more average. The winter temperature hits its lows in January/February, -30C/-40C. Even lower during the nasty storms.

The ground is usually frozen by the end of October. Many Halloween costumes are worn overtop snowsuits. lol.

As for accumulation. Feet of snow. Plenty of feet. The big storms dump/blow enough snow to bury everything. It is pretty common for a storm to drop a foot or so of snow and the wind to pile that up into some huge drifts. I’ve woken up to five feet pile into the driveway overnight. Takes a while to clear that!

So, with winter’s impending arrival, I’m turning my attention back to indoor projects. Outdoor-wise, I’ve got a final grass mowing likely and to clean up those aforementioned trees. And to get the vehicles winter-ready.

Knowing what I know about MLC, I'm leaning towards H may continue his avoidance behaviors and not attend at all. If I ask him to pick me up, I suspect he'd be open to it and would attend - much like taking me to dr appts. That doesn't make it the right idea. What are your thoughts? While I've considered texting H about going together (to ease his discomfort), I don't want to make the wrong move and therefore I haven't reached out. D has already decided that she won't attend which bums me out. I'm really seeing lots of avoidance behaviors in D. Concerning for sure.

My thoughts.

You didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him.

You may be correct. H might attend with you, if you invited him along. However, he is a mess. Time and space. He needs to work through his issues. And that is a glacially slow process.

H has gone radio silent. Allow him his path/journey.

Daughter’s present time avoidance is more “normal”. Hopeful she transits it timely.

I would even guess that H's ego and stubbornness will keep him away longer than he'd like. This here is what I'd like to not be true. H is a brilliant man - I wouldn't just say that - and I have all the confidence that he'll look inward and to your point, may have already begun to. That doesn't mean that he's willing to bruise his ego and return home.

Bingo!

Hitting rock bottom is necessary. And there areso many distractions, internal and external, to allow folks to continue as they are.

Ego, pride, stubbornness. Lots to swallow. It takes a humbleness to admit, sincerely admit, to one’s pain and torment. Admit and submit. MLCer’s run from that. Fight that. And fighting begets fighting.

In time, it may have to be me who breaks the ice with SMART contact. For now, I'm holding out.

I’m weeks away from seven year anniversary from BD (Thanksgiving). XW and I have not had really any contact for those years.

Two (three?) years ago, a son’s wedding, bridal shower, social, etc; this year another son’s wedding announcement and social, etc. These events have placed XW and I in the same room/place/location a few times. Two years ago, I broke the ice with her. She did opened up and equated the kids’ success and happiness with/due to my influence and example. I told her she was an awesome Mom and raised awesome kids. This year, I let her lead. Her and I were in the same yard site over the weekend, in a dance hall, and she said nothing. Didn’t speak to two of the boys, spoke a bit to daughter, and a bit to the happily engaged couple. Didn’t engage much with others. And no dancing.

My weekend was different. I spoke and interacted with lots of people. Danced with lots of people. Helped with the fireworks, setting up the hall, cleaning up the hall, and so on. It was a good time! Good food, good people!

XW has to walk her path.

H has to walk his path.

Look at it less of holding out, and more of letting go. Allowing. Allowing H his choices. You living/loving your life.

Hope yesterday’s university trip went well. A bowl of hot soup, and hugs from Mom. I’m sure D felt good with that!

D

[MamaG]

DnJ- I will read through your update in due time, but I have some news that I’d love your help with.

I know you’ve been along for the ride and you know this information but thought I’d recap before I begged for help

It’s been 20 months since BD. After 15 months, I stopped responding to his texts -5 months ago. Basically went no contact which was a shift since we had been talking a couple times a week. With adult children and living separately, it just made sense to stop playing part time wife and so I could heal.

There has been limited monstering since I’ve gone no contact (actually limited Monster for 15 months). And lots of touch and goes that I’ve not responded to via text.

5 months of no contact generated a text from him today. “Can we talk this Saturday?”

Pit in my stomach. Unsure what he is looking to cover. No idea what he did all summer. I don’t snoop to know of any AP. Regardless, I sit here trying to figure out how to answer. Timid. Unsettled.

Help. Do I engage in convo through text or just respond to question? It’s been so long.

[DnJ]

Hi MG

I'm taking a break from cutting trees. Kind of thirsty.

Sat down for a drink and saw your post.


I'd respond in the same manner H reached out, I'm guessing text: "Sure. Let's meet at xxx restaurant at 3:00pm."


You have the door open a crack, and haven't firmly shut it yet. I'd not meet at home, choosing neutral ground. Also, you can just get up and leave if things go really sideways. And you're not inviting H to your home.


Some tips for the meet up (no particular order):

- Order a tea. I think you enjoy tea, personally I do not, I'd have a soft drink and maybe some fries. Its a mid-afternoon snack, with no expectations.

- No expectations. Keep those at zero. Who knows why H wants to talk. Go and find out.

- You don't have to answer anything. Remember, you didn't call/propose this meeting. Therefore you cannot be expected to have answers at the ready. You do not have any idea of the subject(s) or topic(s) H wishes to discuss.

- Utilize "I am listening." "I'll have to think about that before I can answer that." And such.

- Let H lead. You didn't call this meeting. Let H bring forward what he wishes to talk about. The less you say, the more you'll say. Don't fret over pauses in the conversation.

- Be the first to leave. When things are winding down (and you are finished your fries), thank H (if appropriate) and get up and leave.

- Go dutch. Pay your bill. Let H pay his.

- Be detached. Leave your emotions at home. You can cry, scream, punch, whatever, later.

- Do not agree to anything. Again, you need time to think about things. (And if it is business related, you will be running it passed your lawyer.)

- Know your boundaries. At a restaurant things are less likely to get boundary-worthy. Still, know what predetermined rational actions you take to unwanted disrespectful behavior and/or words. (No expectations of H stepping over such lines. Just being aware is all.)



Remember, H needs to walk his path. Allow him to. However, not at you health - mental, emotional, financial, or otherwise.

Stay strong my dear. You got this!

D

[MamaG]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The solid and sound direction will allow me to sleep tonight. And now I think about where I can get myself a drink and fries. thanks for holding my hand again

[MamaG]

Happy Thursday!

Simply having a plan to approach text and Sat, I felt better putting my head down last night. It's eye opening to me how H still has a hold of my emotions. It was immediate panic, relief (H finally reached out), confusion (why now?), fear (can I keep my cool until I leave 'talk'), excitement (will he propose coming home?), anxiety (is this when H reinforces that he's still leaning towards divorce).....and on and on. In the moment, I couldn't rationally think through 'plan' on my own. This....this is what I need to work on. Sigh.

Sat will likely consume me in thought until Saturday comes. I'm not even sure Sat will happen. H recommended 'talk' in August and then didn't show up to the house. I didn't question nor reach out to hound. Perhaps he expected that I would. My 180s feel great (to me) but as I reflect, I can't imagine what his mind is deducting in moments of clarity.

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific?

I opted to not suggest a place/time bc I don't want to be 'stood up' and waste my time. If H doesn't reach back out between now and Sat, I will stay home and prep for Sunday family dinner. No harm, no foul. Again, I won't follow-up. Will just return to no contact. Sigh

I still haven't heard back from H (and may not) but suspect that H is expecting to meet at the house. I'll need to change that idea...restaurant certainly feels better. H won't decide when to leave convo (well, I suppose he still could in the midst of avoidance); I will. It feels good to have taken back control of myself.

Did some thinking about the 'why now?'. Perhaps going to Nephew's event on 10/14 has him uncertain about how I'll behave with his family? The townees? Fear - H's fears continue? We'll see.

Hitting rock bottom is necessary. And there areso many distractions, internal and external, to allow folks to continue as they are.

Ego, pride, stubbornness. Lots to swallow. It takes a humbleness to admit, sincerely admit, to one’s pain and torment. Admit and submit. MLCer’s run from that. Fight that. And fighting begets fighting.

I'd like to meet up simply so that I can listen to where H's head/heart are. Still, I don't expect that I will learn much. If the past repeats itself, H will talk about work and what H has done all summer (share about dog? AD?). I genuinely see this as another temp check. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised but have no expectations. I love that I've learned this - no expectations! I'll hope.

H is both humble and has an ego. It's so hard to explain and even wrap my head around it. I remember how arrogant H was when we met. I was so unattracted to the arrogance and H stopped showing up as an arrogant person - never gave it much thought. I re-met arrogant H at BD. Let's see how he shows up....

Funny how just earlier this week we talked about H having turned inward. Hope to see some of this.

My weekend was different. I spoke and interacted with lots of people. Danced with lots of people. Helped with the fireworks, setting up the hall, cleaning up the hall, and so on. It was a good time! Good food, good people!

Yup! I'm sure XW noticed. Of course, that's not why you enjoyed yourself. She must wonder what you're doing different to be happy....as she continues to seek happy. Good for you! Laugh and love. Life is just too short.

Snow, sometimes falls early October. November is more average. The winter temperature hits its lows in January/February, -30C/-40C. Even lower during the nasty storms.

The ground is usually frozen by the end of October. Many Halloween costumes are worn overtop snowsuits. lol.

As for accumulation. Feet of snow. Plenty of feet. The big storms dump/blow enough snow to bury everything. It is pretty common for a storm to drop a foot or so of snow and the wind to pile that up into some huge drifts. I’ve woken up to five feet pile into the driveway overnight. Takes a while to clear that!

Woah - that's colder than I would enjoy. I'm cold at 15C. Perhaps I need some meat on these bones.

I continue to dedicate an hour or so each afternoon to trim bushes before our winter hits. For what it's worth, I'm learning that my winter definition sounds more like your summer temps. lol
I have gained appreciation for H and what he'd maintain in our yard in 2 or 3 afternoons. H would cover more ground each time. Physically, I need to spread it out more. Either way, it's getting done! I'm determined.

MG

[MamaG]

On 10/2:

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific?

Radio silence until 10/5:
H: Today might not be good
MG: No problem. Thanks for letting me know.
H: I'm hoping tomorrow but I might be going with X (a guy friend since HS) to Y town. I should find out today.
MG: I've got plans all day tomorrow. If today works, give me a call. Otherwise maybe another day.
H: Oh ok. I'll let you know

Hours later:
H: Today not going to work. Maybe during the week?

Radio silence....

Observations:
10/2 text - it's been a while since H referred to he and I as "we"
10/5's texts:
- expose his confusion and inner conflict "might not be good", "I'm hoping tomorrow but...", "Maybe during the week?"
- fear/avoidance (had plans with me but broke them; could make plans for next day but isn't sure if he has plans already)
- relieved that this weekend won't require him to face fears - "Oh ok."

I tried to keep the door open for future outreaches - providing kindness and no pressure. Would you agree?

I'm doing some reading and see H's actions as behavioral cycles that require a boundary. Could we be back to setting boundaries as this thread is titled? LOL

For 2.5 weeks, H asked how I was recovering until I told him I was 100% - May
For 1 week, H offered 'acts of service' at the house and I declined - June
For 7 weeks, H asked to come by the house to get belongings until I stopped responding to his texts - July/Aug
For 7 weeks, H stopped texting - Aug/Sept
H asked to 'talk' - once in early Aug and again this week (2 months later)

You all know that I don't ever really know how to behave / respond to H. So here I sit wondering if these behavioral cycles will continue until I stop responding (setting a boundary). Do I need to stop entertaining his requests to talk? Or should I be leaning in and keeping the door open? I've held true to not reaching out to him for anything since early May, a full 5 months and counting. Do I stop responding to 'talk requests'? If I respond to 10/5 request, what do I say?

Is it fair to assume he's still in deep replay and anchor checking? Is this controlling behavior and/or manipulation? That's what I hear.

I heard a video that referenced monstering as 'charming monster'. Basically, clarifying that 'monster' doesn't always spew if they know spewing won't be tolerated (H knows that I won't take disrespectful mouthing). Is H applying a charming monster - whatever that is? Charming and ignoring is how H would respond to mom's spewing. Am I onto something? Has H been monstering me all along with taking me to doctors? Hanging with me for hours until he had to do laundry? Breaking our plans because he has yardwork? Could this be his way of keeping the peace and not facing his issues?

Mentally, I'm in a stronger and better place. Unlike 6 months back, I write this with an interest of boundary setting so that I'm not taken advantage of rather than with an interest of getting H back (and fearful of his reaction). I love this for me. I will always be grateful for the handholding. I know I can stand on my own two feet and if H goes radio silent again, it really is his loss.

Church services this morning focused on the uniting of a married couple. It took everything I had to hold my tears. Really wish H would have heard today's service. He's going on a year now without attending.

In a couple hours, I'll be surrounded by laughter and joy with my kids. So looking forward to a work-free Sunday filled with the comfort of family.

Still sprinkling in days off to burn vacation time - taking two days this week and will fill them with a balance of me time and continued yardwork. Oh and pitch tomorrow night.

Have a great Sunday everyone.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I was wondering if H would not show again.

Is it fair to assume he's still in deep replay and anchor checking?

You bet!

Is this controlling behavior and/or manipulation? That's what I hear.

2 for 2! You are hearing and seeing correctly.

Is H applying a charming monster - whatever that is? Charming and ignoring is how H would respond to mom's spewing. Am I onto something? Has H been monstering me all along with taking me to doctors? Hanging with me for hours until he had to do laundry? Breaking our plans because he has yardwork? Could this be his way of keeping the peace and not facing his issues?

For sure. H is doing anything, everything, to prolong from facing himself. Facing his pain/torment.

These anchor checks, H’s behaviour, well done on your part! You are nicely detached.

This is similar to my XW. She desperately reaches out to the kids. Calls, texts, one after the other, until the object of her attention finally calls her. The conversation between them is a nothing conversation. Nothing of significance. No care or concern from Mom regarding son/daughter’s life or school/work or whatever. No sharing of anything from her life; “oh, I just wanted to hear your voice”. (My one son is threatening to send her an audio file of him saying hi, as that is all she is ever after.) A minute or two, call over. Then radio silent for a few more months.

H is on his path. Which has nothing to do with you. You cannot speed him up. Any attempts would lead to prolonging his journey, or worse stalling him. You are wise with pressure free and letting him lead.

To that end, and with boundaries for you in mind, hold H accountable. Not entertaining his scheduling “conflicts”. No more proposing a different day. Demonstrating behaviour you won’t tolerate. Demonstrating behaviour you will. For example:

H: Can we talk this Saturday?
MG: Sure. Is there something specific? Nope, I’m busy. I can talk right now though.

That would likely garner:

H: err. I’m not free right now. How about xxx?

Reply:

MG: Nope. Not free then.


Words vs actions.

Put H on his heals. He can come to you when he is actually sincere and serious about conversing, instead of wasting your and his time.

Look at this past conversation between you and H. If that was someone other than H, you’d not be going along with it. Be kind and cordial. And don’t walk on eggshells.

Enjoy the day.

D

[MamaG]

It's been a week. Took a couple days off and caught up on outdoor preparations for winter. Feeling accomplished and proud that I continue to get through the heavy lifts and using the machinery left by H.

I've always enjoyed watching the fall leaves trickle through the air towards the green landscape while I sit under a blanket and sip a cup of warm tea. This year, dropping leaves have a new meaning. An additional perspective. It's like a shedding of the past. Past life. Ways of life. Behaviors. Beliefs. I suppose, an 'out with the old and in with the new' concept. Bittersweet in many ways as I sit here and gaze at them trickling down. Enjoying the sight and thinking through the metaphoric shedding. As RegretfulLA would say, a new normal.

Checked in with a few friends/family who live in Florida - everyone is safe. Properties, not so much. There is some upcoming cleanup.

On a lighter cleanup front, I prepared for lawn service's visit today as they emailed that they'd be applying the last fertilizer treatment of the year. I used the backpack blower to blow leaves for a couple hours yesterday. Of course, the task required figuring out how to use the blower, how to start the stinker up and how to get it on my back to actually carry it around. That was interesting! When done, the yard looked great. An hour later, with the wind, the yard was covered in leaves again. UGH. I knew it wasn't a good day to blow them but also knew that they needed to be cleared for the fertilizer. Yup, I was out there raking this morning. Trimmed the last of the bushes - glad that's over! Have some remaining things to complete tomorrow before the outdoors will be ready for the 's' word. Let's hope it isn't all too soon. The days and nights have gotten noticeably cooler. Summer is certainly over.

D is feeling better, and I managed to not catch anything from her. We enjoyed a lunch together this week and plan for another next week. I'm really enjoying these random days off from work even if it means I'm doing some chores. Perhaps burning through 6 weeks of vacation time will get accomplished afterall.

Brother and I are in a groove - won 8 out of 10 pitch games over the last couple Mondays despite continuing with crazy decisions. It's been fun and it's nice to hang with Brother. Also meeting new people - some are interesting, and I'll leave it at that. Will be skipping cards this upcoming Monday for (H's) nephew's event that I'm attending. D isn't attending but S is going to try - depends on work. I'm a bit uneasy about Monday but will make it happen.

On a different note, although I keep up with the latest and greatest fashions through D's hand-me-downs, I went on a spending spree - for myself. Other than our feet, we've been blessed with the same body structure and size. And, D runs through styles/purchases rapidly. I must say that it was nice to pick some things out for myself. It has been a while....years.

I got invited to another event for H's family. This time, H and I got separate invites. I decided that I will not attend. S and D have decided to also not attend but haven't responded/acknowledged H's text. Can't help but notice that H's family affairs aren't quite priority for S and D. I will not influence nor point out - they're adults.

No H updates. No texting; no updates.

S, D, BF and I are headed to (my) Nephew's bday party this Sunday. Looking forward to some family time. My family is a blast to hang out with and no one leaves hungry!

Both families - mine and H's - really do celebrate everything and everyone. This kept us close through the years and filled our weekends. Only the summer is a quiet time. I really need to think through the next couple months of activities. Do I attend H's events if I'm invited. We'll see. Need to ponder this.

Included in the next couple months is my 50th and H's 50th - both in November. I remember really enjoying bdays and ensuring everyone's day was special. This is how I was raised. Through the years, my excitement has subsided. I've been disappointed by H's efforts long enough that it's just not the same. I've been beat down. Not sure how I feel about this year being the big 5-0!. D keeps asking me how I want to celebrate - I'm having a hard time thinking through it without emotion. Next month isn't going to happen as it's been written. I know I'll make it through but heavy, nonetheless.

Quiet week ahead - may need to schedule some GALing especially with ONLY one day off from work.

Have a great weekend everyone!