Detaching & setting boundaries w/ clingy boomerang

[MamaG]

Perfect DnJ. Hope you’re resting.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I think the breakfast meetup went well. After an understandable initial bout of jitters it sounds like you found your center and were pretty well detached.

You DBed well. Listened and let H lead. Tossed a few truth darts. Remained pressure-free. And stood up for yourself. (Nice job with the smoothies. )

H is still being a teenager. Happily wearing what he wants, doing what he wants, and not feeling any much judgement or consequences. Yet, he is not a teenager. He is a grown man, and that grown body gets more aches and pains.

Yes, depression often is accompanied by illness and aches. Remember, depression is ever present in a crisis. H is still running, with some facets of his journey exhibiting more depression.

The “stage” of depression is dark and deep. Running no longer works. Nothing provides relief anymore. The MLCer starts to, well more forced to, dig into themselves and their pain.

Couple that internal digging with the weight of their actions and behaviours and choices starting to bear down upon them. Depression and Withdrawal, as they struggle to come to terms with their life.

The stages are nebulous. Some facets of their journey moving forward quicker than others. However, running is a long stage. And the world is full of things to distract them from their pain.

It is rather common for a MLCer to gravitate towards that which they hurt the least and that which would judge them (perceived or otherwise) the least. H asking about the dogs, yet not the kid for example. And of course, his own dog. Yes, a gleeful kid in a candy shop is apt. Such is the narrative and created fantasy of their’s.

As I said, I liked the few truth darts you tossed into his narrative.

My facial expressions may have said it all but I followed it up with “You moved out.”

You also let him know, he is unreliable and not informed of your life anymore.

However this,

I told him I will not abandon him ever and I know he’ll never abandon me (ummm. he has but it felt right to say)

Not sure what you are trying to tell him.

I’m thinking you are attempting to convey that the door is still open a crack. Yet, this statement is more a carte blanche for H. Letting him know you are sitting on the shelf, waiting.

I think I know you better than that. You are not sitting on the shelf. You are moving forward. Living life.

Now, don’t fret. It’s one statement in a couple hour long exchange. Besides, you can better illustrate what you’re trying to say through your actions.

As I lay my head down on Saturday night, I'm unsure of how I feel although I know that I miss him. I'm unsure of what to do now? Where is his head? What's he really been up to?.....

H is still playing with the unicorns and fairies.

It’s perfectly fine missing him and being unsure of how you feel. You aren’t letting your emotions lead your life. You are making decisions based upon reason and logic. Acknowledge the feelings, seek understanding of them, and let them go. Continue to move forward.

What to do now? I think you know the drill. Focus back on you.

You had a glimpse of H’s life and where he is. Did H and you have that hike/talk he suggested?

Live your life. Move forward. Don’t pursue H, let him run to catch up to you.

D

[MamaG]

I think the breakfast meetup went well. After an understandable initial bout of jitters it sounds like you found your center and were pretty well detached.

Agree that I appeared and felt detached. Some feelings would surface and then I pushed them back. Saturday breakfast was successful on the detached front. Agree that I shouldn't have said that I won't abandon him. I suppose he may have known that anyway but I didn't need to confirm it in case there was doubt. Actions though...if my actions continue to demonstrate detachment, the message will be re-sent to him. TY

I’m thinking you are attempting to convey that the door is still open a crack. Yet, this statement is more a carte blanche for H. Letting him know you are sitting on the shelf, waiting.

Yup.

H is still being a teenager. Happily wearing what he wants, doing what he wants, and not feeling any much judgement or consequences. Yet, he is not a teenager. He is a grown man, and that grown body gets more aches and pains.

I see that you struck the word "any". Are you suggesting that he tells himself that he's not being judged but feels like he is?

Yes, depression often is accompanied by illness and aches. Remember, depression is ever present in a crisis. H is still running, with some facets of his journey exhibiting more depression.

Based on your response, including this comment, I'm hearing you note that H is still in replay. Perhaps he's dipping his toe into D/W stages. Is that what you're suggesting?

As for the hike, yes it happened. I was less detached and was running out of smoothies. Maybe it wasn't a bad thing. In hindsight, I question if I took bait or if our conversation happened with the real H. It seemed so real. So hard to tell.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I see that you struck the word "any". Are you suggesting that he tells himself that he's not being judged but feels like he is?

Absolutely. MLCers tell themselves their narrative, their running behaviour, to try to escape their feelings.

I suspect H feels judged. From himself.

- He shared that he feels better now that he’s not being judged. He can wear what he wants, do what he wants – described teenager life without having to report back.

If one truly no longer felt something, why would they bring it up?

As an example, my empty nest and my kids. I no longer miss my kids… as much. The times throughout the day when I truly do not miss them, I don’t think of them, so I wouldn’t even mention them. The statement “I no longer miss my kids” has to have some anchoring.

To profess not to feel judged, is admitting the opposite still happens… sometimes. His daughter not talking to him, nor going to his house. Got to be some feelings there. Usually such feelings are buried with blaming. Seems H is not blaming. So, maybe something else…

Anyhow, the feelings of judging are getting less. So, valid and true, he feels better.

This lessening, to me, is a precursor to healing, to growing up. When one is fighting against their feelings, judging for example, they lash out. The brash bold teenager fighting against the judgmental system by wearing wild clothes, piercing, whatever. I mean seriously, you ever try to walk or run in pants that are hanging down at your knees. Not practical nor functional, so why do it. Rebellious. As they grow up, they pull their pants up.

I do believe H is dipping his toe into depression and withdrawal. His growth will be reflected in his actions and manner of dress. Watch his “pants”. lol. Actually, focus on you. A watched pot and all.

As for the hike, yes it happened. I was less detached and was running out of smoothies. Maybe it wasn't a bad thing. In hindsight, I question if I took bait or if our conversation happened with the real H. It seemed so real. So hard to tell.

Haha. Refill those smoothies.

Sounds like H is peeking out. Keep pressure-free. No R-talks. Time and space. Think timid squirrel. H has a lot to atone for. Imagine how difficult it will be to face all that.

He likely will duck back in for another spell. I think he’s not done, and is still baking. Time will tell.

You, keep doing what works, and less of what doesn’t. The conversations are fine, just be ready to back off really quick if things take a weird turn.

Remember, you are not at his beck and call. It’s ok to get back to him in a few days. You are pretty busy after all.

Have a great day.

D

[MamaG]

I'm not sure how the hike and talk went - mixed reviews (reviews of my own as I replay the whole thing in my head). I have given it all so much thought. To what degree was my real H present in the 2 hours? It felt like it was him that I was engaging with. H seemed serious and sincere. Not angry but question if his monster has softened....

And for as a result of replaying Sun over and over, I clearly have a lot to write. Long one ahead....

Time & location were not set for our hike. So, I reached out to H to ensure I heard from his mind. H’s response immediately introduced running behaviors: “not been feeling well since yesterday’s breakfast”. I’m feeling triggered – yes, I’m working on this.

M: Stopping at bakery. Want anything for our hike? (no response for an hour)
H: You’ve probably already left but I’m all set. I have not been feeling well since breakfast. There must have been something in it.
Hmmm…another nauseous day and I happen to be around him….STFU smoothy was delicious.
M: do you have the battery charger? I can’t seem to find it. (I made no reference to his ailments.)
H: What do you need it for?
M: I want to pick up some of these leaves with the mower but it won’t start.
H: Not sure you should mow them bc….blah blah blah…I’ll bring it if I’m feeling better
M: What time do you think you’ll be coming? (3 hours go by…)
H: I’m jumping in the shower and will be right over.
H: On my way

As H pulls in, dogs run over, and he happily greets them. He sets up the charger and we’re ready to go. I intentionally met him outside so this conversation happens, and we don’t get derailed by his belongings being packed up bc they’re right there at garage entrance. I walk towards my car in the garage as he walks towards his.

H: You’re driving?
M: I figured we’d take our own vehicles. I didn’t know if you’d want me in your truck.
H: Up to you but you can come with me. (I jump into his truck and we’re off.)
H: I’ll stop over tomorrow morning to see if it charged. (Interestingly didn’t offer to take care of the leaves.)

We enjoyed some small talk and then I asked what H has been trying to talk about. We talked about dogs (yes, again) and why they shouldn’t be pulled from mom too early, setting the stage for adults being impacted by long ago traumas.

M: You know that when dogs experience an early separation from mom, it leads to anxiety and other socialization problems. Plenty of long-term challenges.
H: Ya. But niece got her dog at 7 weeks, and she seems fine.
M: Humans are like that too, but it’s not measured in weeks. I said, the first 7 to 10 years of life really form who we are and our beliefs. (Let’s hope this connects some dots. Do you think in his emotional turmoil that this comment could’ve opened his mind to potential long ago issues?)
H: Ya. I guess.
M: I have a follow up appt tomorrow to confirm I’m in the clear from May surgery.
H: Where? (There was immediate concern in his voice. His ‘where’ question is likely due to him expecting to take me to the far away appts but I didn’t tell him.)
M: It’s local.
H: Let me know how it goes.

Ok, let’s cut to the chase...

M: So you’ve been wanting to talk. I’m not pressuring you but would you like to today? (He was visibly unsure of what to say and how to say it. I drank the STFU smoothie until his words came through.)
H: I still struggle with it but it’s fewer times now.
M: What is “it”?
H: Killing myself
M: Oh, ok. (insert pause. I’m inclined to believe he’s using this comment as bait, again. What do you think?)
H: The A/Ds are helping.
M: Are you ok right now. Or, do I still give you anxiety?
H: No, I’m ok right now. I just need to find myself. I mean not find myself. I just need to figure things out. (He retracts the ‘find myself’ comment as if he is aware of MLC and doesn’t believe it’s what he’s going through. It was a strange feeling that made me wonder why he felt like he couldn’t admit that out loud. Any insight? Could someone have joked that he’s having one and he is inclined to correct the perception?)
M: Happy to hear that anxiety is more under control.
H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)
H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

Now we’re moving into the thick of it…I couldn’t refill my smoothies as fast as I was drinking them.

M: Well, there are many ways. I’m not sure that anyone should write off a 32-year relationship without making an effort. But, I’m not here to change your mind.
H: And, how would we do that?
M: I don’t know. I’m not a therapist. This is where we were 20 months ago. (We just stared at each other. My wheels are spinning.)
M: What? You’re acting like you expected me to fight for you. (Blank stare again.)
M: I’m going to get ready to sell house. That’s the first thing in order. (Somebody get me a refill!)
H: You know that’s not what I’ve wanted. (He starts getting visibly agitated.)
M: I don’t need that much house and would like to sell it. (H shook his head and more silence.)
M: It doesn’t help that you’re talking with EA all day every day. The grass grows greener where you water it and our grass isn’t looking good. (He was confused by this comment. Not sure if he’s surprised I ‘know’ about EA or if he believes it’s innocent and they’re just friends. Thoughts?)
H: We do talk all the time. I guess you and I don’t really spend much time together, do we?
M: You spend holidays and go on vacations like the one in July to SC together. That’s called an EA. As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.
H: I do talk with her a lot but that’s it. There’s nothing else. (Bam – confirmed! Somehow, I kept my cool for the rest of our interaction that night. Not so much once I got home.)
M: Then why did the two of you go?
H: She had concert tickets. HS friend and I planned to go with her and her sister. HS friend backed out so it was the 3 of us.
M: I understood the two of you went alone and that’s definitely at least an EA. I have no proof of it turning PA but we’ll see. (Ran out of the smoothie again! Wish I hadn’t admitted the ‘no proof’ part.)
H: We just talk.
M: I’ve known and have waited for you to come clean with me. I even gave you the oppty yesterday, but you didn’t divulge. (H was not sure how I knew but didn’t question me either. Good thing as Godly intuition is hard to explain. I’ve still not snooped.)
H: I have no interest in her nor anyone else. We only talk. You know, she even suggested that I join dating sites. (OK, so why did he throw this in there? Dating sites were suggested?)
M: (No response. Refilled STFU smoothie as I collect myself from his admission. I purely watched him to see his body response. He wasn’t angry which is his typical response to pressure. He was saying this very matter-of-factly. I was so confused and unsure of what to believe.)
H: Maybe we can start talking more. I know I’ve suggested that before but I’m serious. We can reconnect. (Neither of us mentioned stopping with EA.)

We got back to the truck and I asked if I could kiss him. He said yes and I leaned in. Yes, I leaned in...other than look my way, I don't remember much leaning on his part.) And, I'm not sure what it meant or said to him. (Where was that smoothie maker?)

H is now opening up to me and begins to share his thoughts for the first time in over a year. Is this monstering to justify his behavior that was just aired about EA? I imagine there is truth to some/all of it too and these topics explain how he may have been seeing me as a villain in Feb 2023 and onward. Thoughts?

For someone who has aired very little over the last 12 months & for someone who has cried on a dime, this is a welcomed change. (Neither of us shed a tear.) Despite the many appts and hours we’ve spent together over the last year, he hasn’t shared any of this. Why now? What’s changed? Did EA help him see what he’s doing or even put to words what his feelings have been but he didn’t know how to express? Why is he finally voicing things? Has he reflected? How did he get here? I have so many questions.

1. Control – back to control. Yesterday he felt ‘judged’, but didn’t use ‘judged’ in today’s conversation. I told him that I’m not the same person and he said that he can see that.

2. Misses: (listed in this order)
My food
Playing games at table with me
Watching tv at night with me
Coming home to me
And of course….s3x

3. Grateful for a couple mentions:
-He thanked me for helping him through a 6-month recovery of an injury in 2021 (a contributor to MLC launch)
-He thanked me for managing the house and told me I did a great job keep us organized through the years. But (yup, a ‘but’) that’s not necessary anymore. H wants to be provided with more flexibility for his time – do as he pleases. H felt like we were in a boss/EE relationship (Hmm..never said that before but likely a truth dart at me.)

3. Need to escape – I validated
-H needed to move out (On the hike, he seemed to regret but provided no apology. I heard, he needed to escape and doesn’t fully understand it.)
-I was needing him too much and he couldn’t take it anymore
-He needed more freedom than I was offering him to do this or that without helicopter cop

4. Detachment (worked for me and forced him inward?) – H said I hurt him when:
-I wouldn’t respond to his texts over summer (Did he fear losing me and finally look inward?):
-I wouldn’t tell him what happened to my arms in July
-I didn’t acknowledge receipt of something he put in the mailbox in Aug. He said: how was he supposed to know that I got it?
-I didn’t tell him about job change

5. Explanation that his life isn’t great – woe is me
-He’s only been to bar 10 times in 1.5 years – doesn’t look at others. Just goes for a drink.
-Doesn’t eat most nights
-Needs to hire someone to mow his lawn bc he couldn’t mow for 2 weeks with sprained ankle
-He talked about being afraid to move back home in case control sets in again. (I didn’t respond – no comment on returning home as I’m not ready and the being afraid…well, fear remains in him.)

6. Forgetful
-There have been several moments that he’s forgotten things/commitments
-Parcel was about missing multiple appts and that there were consequences if he continued to not show
-Didn’t come for the charging lawnmower on 10/28 despite it being his offer
-Text me at end of day about forgetting to come for charging lawnmower but didn’t ask about my appt earlier that day

7. Admitted faults of his own
-Would walk away from discussions – he admitted hating conflict; it would’ve been an argument. (Umm…no….)
-Agreed that he wouldn’t bring his friends over through the years but it seemed like he was still hiding the reason; he knows that I would be offended by that
-Wasn’t good at creating lists

8. I provided a short apology dump to demonstrate growth and self-reflection (held onto some for another day)
-It must have been a heavy weight to be my main source of happiness – I go out now and like it. He said he’s afraid I’ll stop doing that. He wants to see friends and thinks I should too.
-We both lost respect for each other. (He agreed.)
-I should have stood up to my parents to defend him. (He agreed again)

9. He said that I don’t listen to him. I validated his thought as I’ve heard this before from him. And, I’ve read that avoidants say things once (sometimes just think it) and expect that the spouse understands how passionate they feel about that comment. I feel like there may be some truth to this comment and that I could be a better listener. Something I still need to work on.

10. Confusion and emotional turmoil continue:
-H wants to introduce our 2 dogs to his. (Umm, not so fast. Why do you think?)
-We talked about how him walking away from our convos was disrespectful. H quickly agreed and it was obvious that he had come to that realization. Told him that disagreeing on something isn’t an argument. Rather, it should generate conversation which is what marriage is about. We agreed that he needs to stand up for himself without the anger. (Was this too much for someone in MLC?
-I told him that not bringing his friends over to our house made me feel like he was embarrassed of me (I think he was embarrassed of them but I threw it into convo.) This was a new thought for H and he appeared to ponder. This gave me reason for pause. Could there be something here…
-At drop off, we were in convo while I got out of truck and closed the door. I kept eye contact. Afterall, we were in a convo. As I walk around to driver window, I saw his face fall. I could see anger surfaced. I got to his window and said, that was an example of you not assuming I had good intentions when I shut the truck door while we were talking. Could you see that you got angry? He said yes. I said, now do you feel silly? You thought I was abandoning the convo by closing truck door before saying goodbye? He responded with a disappointed, “yes”. I reminded him that I’m not out to get him. Assuming good intent would help our situation. (hoping this resonates as I’ve said over the last 3 years pretty consistently!)

11. I interpreted and walked away with some questions/thoughts:
-H is missing comforts and securities of home life – he mentioned several very specific things that
-Since MLC, it has been rare that H would accept any food I’d offer which was always confusing. Now that I know ‘my food’ is the first thing he mentioned missing, I wonder if he wouldn’t accept it bc it would bring him back to what he misses and remind him of home. Is this what you hear/interpret?
-Anger and fear continue to bubble to the surface – he has greater awareness now (afraid control will return if he comes home)
-Could it be that EA told him there was no interest in PA by suggesting dating sites? Letting him down easy? – Is his fantasy over and he’s beginning to realize it?
-I don’t remember an apology but heard the confusion that I was dubbing it an EA. To him, she’s a friend. What do we make of this? Limerence? which I know very little about….
-H acknowledged that he’s not perfect and needs to make some changes for us. hmmmm
-Could the upcoming holidays and our milestone bdays be influencing his thoughts and push to talk?

At the 20-month mark from BD1, he finally voiced his issues and suggests we talk more frequently. Is he cycling back to me? I still wonder if he’s had an awakening. What are your thoughts?

In addition to my interpretation of the last 5 months, he hasn’t been returning S’s calls nor reaching out to D & S very much.

In the entire 2 days, H didn’t mention spending time with this HS weed friends so I suspect that chapter may have slowed down. The EA and remaining HS friend don’t often tinker with weed; it’s on a more social basis.

Will he remember the details of this convo? What he shared and/or what I said in response? In the moment, he seemed to be very engaged and coherent. Nothing he said was outlandish. If I didn’t know about MLC behaviors, I’d tell you that was my H.

Is he still in replay? Breaking stage of withdrawal; first awakening? Second awakening?

10/28: H didn’t show up for the mower charger. At 9 pm, H sent a text acknowledging that he didn’t and asked if I had unplugged it already. We exchanged a few texts about how to unplug it and that was it.

10/29, 10/30, 10/31: No reach out from H

Let's see what Nov brings....

[RegretfulLA]

Hi Mama -
Wow, that's a lot and sounds like ice has broken a bit. Good for you for showing so much restraint. You are doing an amazing job with DB! Your H reminds me so much of mine. H and I have been doing a bit of reading into attachment styles and he's totally "fearful/avoidant" - sounds like yours is too.

It seems to me that he's going to be simultaneously reaching out and pulling back. He obviously misses you and still has love for you but there's something else inside that's pulling at him more strongly. Yes, he's obviously quite depressed. Perhaps you can mention therapy again if he gives you signals that he's open to it.

At some point he will need to do the work that he needs to do. Even if things get better and improve, if he doesn't really heal, the wounds will open up again. I DB'd successfully in 2012 and we did marriage counseling through 2015. Things improved, then got horrible again in 2019 when H "fell in love" with a very young woman which kicked off MLC. I didn't know about that until just recently, but somehow he managed to pull himself out of that funk and we were fine through the pandemic. Now here we are again. My point is - my H never did the work he needed to do to ensure that he wouldn't slip into his old patterns. Your H needs to do that work too so he can be fully present.

All of his mystery illnesses are interesting. You think he even connects them to his emotional state? He may be so detached from his own reality that he doesn't understand. His acting like a teenager is his way of avoiding pain.

As DnJ says, keep moving forward. H is on his own path and can't be relied on.

You are a good woman MG. I hope H can come to his senses.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Wow, that got a lot of stuff out in the open.

M: So you’ve been wanting to talk. I’m not pressuring you but would you like to today? (He was visibly unsure of what to say and how to say it. I drank the STFU smoothie until his words came through.)
H: I still struggle with it but it’s fewer times now.
M: What is “it”?
H: Killing myself
M: Oh, ok. (insert pause. I’m inclined to believe he’s using this comment as bait, again. What do you think?)

Nicely done letting H find his words. Pausing, letting H fill in the silence is excellent.

It’s pretty common for depression to bring about feelings of ending things. How it would be like. In my readings and experience (my cousin committed suicide) folks who are talking about it, are much less likely to do it.

Antidepressants also help. And H is on A/D. Which means he is seeing a doctor for prescriptions, follow ups, and reassignments. H will be exposed to, and prompted to, many avenues of reaching out. Speaking with the doctor sitting front of him; calling the office; the suicide help line; to name a few. H can reach out if he needs to.

So yes, I do think it’s mostly bait, with some truthful associated feelings. (H also does not bring this subject up again. Which to me illustrates the fleeting-ness of it.)

H: The A/Ds are helping.
M: Are you ok right now. Or, do I still give you anxiety?
H: No, I’m ok right now. I just need to find myself. I mean not find myself. I just need to figure things out. (He retracts the ‘find myself’ comment as if he is aware of MLC and doesn’t believe it’s what he’s going through. It was a strange feeling that made me wonder why he felt like he couldn’t admit that out loud. Any insight? Could someone have joked that he’s having one and he is inclined to correct the perception?)
M: Happy to hear that anxiety is more under control.

Mental health, emotional health, there is quite a stigma attached to that. Folks also deny health problems. Especially men.

By the sounds of it, H knows/realizes. Perhaps only in moments here and there. Yet he realizes. So, good for him.

H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)

Love it.

Your situation is far enough along, you are far enough along, and you are healed enough that the best/correct response is to toss the ball right back in his court.

This is/was no idle threat. You meant it.

H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

H is backpedaling. Methinks he is quite surprised by MamaG2.0.

M: Well, there are many ways. I’m not sure that anyone should write off a 32-year relationship without making an effort. But, I’m not here to change your mind.
H: And, how would we do that?
M: I don’t know. I’m not a therapist. This is where we were 20 months ago. (We just stared at each other. My wheels are spinning.)
M: What? You’re acting like you expected me to fight for you. (Blank stare again.)
M: I’m going to get ready to sell house. That’s the first thing in order. (Somebody get me a refill!)
H: You know that’s not what I’ve wanted. (He starts getting visibly agitated.)
M: I don’t need that much house and would like to sell it. (H shook his head and more silence.)
M: It doesn’t help that you’re talking with EA all day every day. The grass grows greener where you water it and our grass isn’t looking good. (He was confused by this comment. Not sure if he’s surprised I ‘know’ about EA or if he believes it’s innocent and they’re just friends. Thoughts?)
H: We do talk all the time. I guess you and I don’t really spend much time together, do we?
M: You spend holidays and go on vacations like the one in July to SC together. That’s called an EA. As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.
H: I do talk with her a lot but that’s it. There’s nothing else. (Bam – confirmed! Somehow, I kept my cool for the rest of our interaction that night. Not so much once I got home.)
M: Then why did the two of you go?
H: She had concert tickets. HS friend and I planned to go with her and her sister. HS friend backed out so it was the 3 of us.
M: I understood the two of you went alone and that’s definitely at least an EA. I have no proof of it turning PA but we’ll see. (Ran out of the smoothie again! Wish I hadn’t admitted the ‘no proof’ part.)
H: We just talk.
M: I’ve known and have waited for you to come clean with me. I even gave you the oppty yesterday, but you didn’t divulge. (H was not sure how I knew but didn’t question me either. Good thing as Godly intuition is hard to explain. I’ve still not snooped.)
H: I have no interest in her nor anyone else. We only talk. You know, she even suggested that I join dating sites. (OK, so why did he throw this in there? Dating sites were suggested?)
M: (No response. Refilled STFU smoothie as I collect myself from his admission. I purely watched him to see his body response. He wasn’t angry which is his typical response to pressure. He was saying this very matter-of-factly. I was so confused and unsure of what to believe.)
H: Maybe we can start talking more. I know I’ve suggested that before but I’m serious. We can reconnect. (Neither of us mentioned stopping with EA.)

So, lots out in the open. And ball pretty well in H’s court. Let’s see if he follows up with talking more.

As for EA, yes he likely sees it quite differently. Even justifying it as an innocent friendship. Masters of manipulation they are. Even to themselves. Twisting reality to their narrative.

You did well with the EA topic. You did tossed a barrage of truth darts, and you got him to admit the EA. You even put a boundary out there, and defined the EA as cheating - “As long as you cheat on me that way, we can’t bond and be better.”

Stick to your boundary. You told H pretty clearly. It’s now up to him.

H is now opening up to me and begins to share his thoughts for the first time in over a year. Is this monstering to justify his behavior that was just aired about EA? I imagine there is truth to some/all of it too and these topics explain how he may have been seeing me as a villain in Feb 2023 and onward. Thoughts?

I’m sure H’s sharing of his thoughts about you are in a good portion a response of what had just transpired. It’s ok. MLCers have lots to burn through, and lashing out and venting can promote forward movement.

For someone who has aired very little over the last 12 months & for someone who has cried on a dime, this is a welcomed change. (Neither of us shed a tear.) Despite the many appts and hours we’ve spent together over the last year, he hasn’t shared any of this. Why now? What’s changed? Did EA help him see what he’s doing or even put to words what his feelings have been but he didn’t know how to express? Why is he finally voicing things? Has he reflected? How did he get here? I have so many questions.

Why now? Growth.

As odd as it is, and horrible as it is, affairs are a band-aid. Remember, these hurt folks are using the AP to grow up from. Like a surrogate parent for the teenager self. They use them. And the AP uses the MLCer.

It is kind of help. Not directly, nor particularly healthy or well intentioned even. And there are many other ways and methods of guidance and help. However, that’s not what was chosen. Of course, if they could/would choose better they’d not be in crisis.

That’s the silver lining side. There is an entire ugly side of affairs which folks embroiled in these illicit relationships have to journey their way through.

H’s list and feedback. There are some nuggets of truth in there, as you pointed out. And you have made changes, and H has noticed. Keep doing for you.

His take on things is the standard script/fare. Interestingly, he shared quite a bit. Even acknowledging some of his own shortcomings.

Will he remember the details of this convo? What he shared and/or what I said in response? In the moment, he seemed to be very engaged and coherent. Nothing he said was outlandish. If I didn’t know about MLC behaviors, I’d tell you that was my H.

Time will tell. MLCers wear a mask and hide their deep self. Part of the running; running from themselves.

However, I do think H will be mulling this over for quite a while.

Is he still in replay? Breaking stage of withdrawal; first awakening? Second awakening?

Replay. Tending towards depression.

If there is an affair partner, they are running. Sounds like the EA might be ending, or H is lying.

Boomerangs do circle back and then fly off again. It’s ok to hope. Keep expectations to zero.

The ball is in his court. Stick to your boundaries. Do not sell yourself short. Do not falter. Live your life. Love your life.

H has the opportunity to run and catch up. If he decides to, don’t hold his hand. He has to earn it. Demonstrate it. Consistently.

D

[MamaG]

Hello!

It was a touch weekend. Feelings. Oh, feelings were never ending. 

To profess not to feel judged, is admitting the opposite still happens… sometimes. His daughter not talking to him, nor going to his house. Got to be some feelings there. Usually such feelings are buried with blaming. Seems H is not blaming. So, maybe something else…

Pointing it out would indicate that it's on his mind. Good observation - TY. I didn't sense blaming either. Do you have any thoughts of what it could be? What could 'something else' be? Are you thinking a contributor to childhood trauma from long ago? Just curious what you meant.

You, keep doing what works, and less of what doesn’t. The conversations are fine, just be ready to back off really quick if things take a weird turn.

As DnJ says, keep moving forward. H is on his own path and can't be relied on.

Conversation is now welcomed more (by H). Well, maybe he welcomed it for the first time which let me into his world. Well, he showed me the world he wanted me to see.

Conversation with H also taught me that I'm not as detached as I was thinking. It's been hard to recover. Having given me so much to think about, I had a rough week and weekend processing. I spent more time than I'd like to admit finding my center.

And as I re-detach and do my own thing, I'm finding thoughts of H have intensified. And thoughts of H and EA have brought new feelings...not good ones. Re-detaching hasn't come easy.

I've learned that inviting H to breakfast works every time. I haven't been declined yet. Ane he always shows. Under the 'do more of what works and less of what doesn't' theory, I'd love to enjoy more breakfasts as he shows up and we engage. I don't invite though. Yet, it's contradictory to detaching. Isn't it?

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up. Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

All of his mystery illnesses are interesting. You think he even connects them to his emotional state? He may be so detached from his own reality that he doesn't understand. His acting like a teenager is his way of avoiding pain.

I don't believe that he connects the two. At one point...in a rather passive way...on Sunday I asked if he thinks the anxiety may be bringing on the 'not feeling well' symptoms. It was brief and we carried on with our conversation. I know that I can't help him yet I see to be inclined to think I can. Sigh

You are a good woman MG. I hope H can come to his senses.

Thank you! I feel like most think I'm a good woman...well, except H, whose opinion I put so much value in. His opinion hasn't been carrying so much weight lately, but it still stings to know he lives down the road which is a choice to not choose me, a good woman. I know it's his journey but the sting is still there. Reminders like this one from you are helpful. TY. Frankly, most, if not all of us on this board are good and strong people. Being here speaks volumes about someone and that applies to you too, RL.

I’m sure H’s sharing of his thoughts about you are in a good portion a response of what had just transpired. It’s ok. MLCers have lots to burn through, and lashing out and venting can promote forward movement.

Let's hope so. Still haven't heard from H. Not sure that I expected to, but certainly hoped. Knowing how hard it's been to re-detach, I'm willing to bet I may have expected to some degree.

Celebrating milestone bdays and upcoming holidays aren't helping matters.

Why now? Growth.

As odd as it is, and horrible as it is, affairs are a band-aid. Remember, these hurt folks are using the AP to grow up from. Like a surrogate parent for the teenager self. They use them. And the AP uses the MLCer.

It is kind of help. Not directly, nor particularly healthy or well intentioned even. And there are many other ways and methods of guidance and help. However, that’s not what was chosen. Of course, if they could/would choose better they’d not be in crisis.

That’s the silver lining side. There is an entire ugly side of affairs which folks embroiled in these illicit relationships have to journey their way through.

I knew confirmation of an EA and possible PA would hit me hard. No matter how much I prepared. I always told him that there were 2 things he could do to dissolve our M. One of them was an affair. Learning about MLC has helped with a change of heart. Helped. Not changed my mind. And so I waver. This weekend, a D surfaced more than I'd like to admit. It's a hard pill to swallow. It's still sitting in my mouth. (the wet pill tastes nasty!)

I've not told H that I've reconsidered my feelings about an affair. Technically, it's a boundary that I've shared and reshared with him since BD. The last time I voiced it was mid-March. Still, H heard this boundary for a straight year - at least 5 times.

My kissing him after the hike was in part to demonstrate that despite knowing about EA, he would be forgiven, especially if his fear of my knowing about affair is keeping him from moving forward.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again.

His take on things is the standard script/fare. Interestingly, he shared quite a bit. Even acknowledging some of his own shortcomings.

H was so tightlipped for so long that at some point, it had to come out. Agree that it is typical MLC script reinforcing that he's in MLC. Replay to be specific. Hearing himself admit things out loud can be helpful in a step towards acceptance. Afterall, step one is admission. I can hope.

Boomerangs do circle back and then fly off again. It’s ok to hope. Keep expectations to zero.

I don't feel like he's been much of a boomerang over the last couple of months. Meeting up at nephew's event wasn't his attempt. His parcel requiring my reach out wasn't his attempt. And that's what led me to invite him for breakfast. Is it typical for MLCers to bounce between styles in the journey? Or is his pulling back contributing to the thought that he may be tending towards D/W?

The ball is in his court. Stick to your boundaries. Do not sell yourself short. Do not falter. Live your life. Love your life.

Living life has been harder since we met but he doesn't know it, as we haven't engaged. For all he knows, I've returned to the 'Live your life. Love your life.' he experienced especially at nephew's event
a couple weeks back. This is a benefit of him having moved out.

Bumming that we don't have any pitch games scheduled tonight. Due to a conflict, we'll have a double header next week. Yes, another 5 hour marathon on a work night. One of next week's opponents is currently in 1st place so it should be an interesting night. We're in 3rd place which I am pleasantly surprised about. After all, this was for fun. Clearly brother's and my competitiveness is still going strong.

Bday celebrations started yesterday - Aunt and cousin treated me to an afternoon of laughs and good eats. Much needed GALing. Bday dinner plans this week with D. S is flying home from work trip for this coming weekend. Trying to be in better spirits as I approach what many are trying to make a great memory for me. Yet, I'm struggling to show up as they deserve. As I deserve. I'm surrounded by so much love & support. It's not lost on me.

On the house front, leaves are all picked up. Yard looks great. Hoping to not have to get back out there with a rake/mower.

I'm on the lookout for someone to take care of snow removal this winter. Collecting estimates. Wonder what the going rate will be...

While doing a load of laundry yesterday, the washer decided it was too tired to finish the load. It was no longer responding to me pushing buttons. I ruled out the potential circuit breaker issue. Tried a couple other troubleshooting ideas and speculate that it may be the control board...as it isn't responding. Meanwhile, the door is locked with a wet load sitting in there until someone can come to fix it. It's possible that the locked door has shut down the board. We'll see.

Dogs are enjoying me being home more as I burn through PTO. It's been nice to sit under a blanket with them. Lots of cuddles.

I'm currently making soup to warm up the insides. Love me some soup. Any and all soup.

MG

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I think, for H, that without the external judging he felt occurring, and with less outward blaming, his own internal judgemental voice can be heard more. Perhaps, he is looking within.

Yet, it's contradictory to detaching. Isn't it?

I understand the conversation with H stirred up things for you. Detachment is when your emotions are not being uncontrollably dragged around. Key word - uncontrollably. (Indifference is when you are numb.)

Sure your thoughts have intensified and you spent/invested some time into processing, and peering into the crystal ball. You were not a puddle on the floor, crying uncontrollably. You controlled you! You are detached.

You received new information, about H, about the situation, it’s perfectly normal to ponder/rationalize such. Just don’t get lost down the rabbit hole though.

I’d not be surprised if indifference is unwinding for you. That weirdly peaceful numbness. Again, perfectly normal. Feeling do return. We don’t remain indifferent forever. We just aren’t uncontrollably dragged about. And with our inner work, self control, healing, etc, we regain our power and stand for ourselves.

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up.

Obtaining a lawyer and looking into the legal aspects is wise. Feelings aside, and I mean put your feelings aside, use your rational logical side for making decisions. Never throw in the towel based upon feelings. Feeling based decisions lead to regret.

Yes, seek legal advice. Information is power. Know your right and responsibilities; the procedure; debts and assets; property you’ll fight for and stuff you’ll let go; the outcomes - best case, worst case, and likely case. All good solid information.

Use that information, equally solidly. Make rational decisions. Taking into account your feelings as well, after all you’re not a robot. Remember, doing nothing is doing something.

Limbo ain’t for the faint of heart. Let your time in the crucible remove the slag and unveil the gem inside.

Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

Know thoughts. Know feelings. No confusion. (Well, less confusion. )

Know thyself.

I know that I can't help him yet I seem to be inclined to think I can.

Yep, most of us are fixers.

Let go, or be dragged.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again.

Folks embroiled in affairs are not emotionally healthy people. It’s an illicit relationship. Sneaking around. A dirty little secret. Breaking up a family. Working to destroy someone else’s vows. Etc. What well-balanced emotionally stable person seeks, or agrees to, such a thing? So yes, an AP is likely in some turmoil as well.

Betrayal is the worst thing someone can do another person. The wounds from such action are deep and many. (((Hugs)))

You can heal from betrayal. And I mean more than just having things scar over.

No amount of retribution or comeuppance will suffice. That will not take the pain and deep hurt away. The answer lay in you: Forgiveness.

It’s also the path for “How do I get past this?”.

Love the sinner(s), forgive the sin/deed/transgression. (Your focus on forgiving is on the act, not the person.)

How do I get past this? Control. Choice. With purpose. Ask yourself, why would I allow the actions of them/others to have control over me?

Healing, sincerely healing, is a hard road. Holding a grudge feels empowering. It’s not. It takes a lot of energy to hold and maintain a grudge. Yet, that is our default. Programmed by society, media, and such.

Forgiveness is freeing. It’s is for you. From you.

It’s not so much taking the pain and hurt away, it’s letting go of them. Giving the pain and hurt away. Giving it to God.

It’s interesting how strongly folks hang in to their pains and grudges. And I mean, will fight against letting go. I get it, letting go feels less powerful. Angry, mad, furious, rage, are strong and intense emotions. They feel big and powerful. Yet, feelings are fleeting. And feelings are not facts.

Let them go. And embrace forgiveness. Find peace and contentment. It’s a much more powerful state.

Is it typical for MLCers to bounce between styles in the journey? Or is his pulling back contributing to the thought that he may be tending towards D/W?

Let me preface this with a caveat/warning. MLC is a wild cauldron of emotions and torment, so no guarantees.

It is uncommon for a MLCer to bounce between styles, while in replay. A vanisher remains a vanisher, a boomerang remains a boomerang. Seeing a significant change in behaviour is usually indicative of them moving out of replay. Be this short term, long term, or permanent, remains to be seen.

H may not like, to a very high degree, not like what he faces and jumps back into running. You remain: Pressure-free. Not your journey. Time will tell.

Glad to read the yard is all cleaned up and winter ready. I agree, find someone to look after the snow.

Sorry about your errant washing machine. The door locks electrically. Unplugging the machine should deenergize the lock and allow you to retrieve the clothes. (I know, advice too late. lol)


And Happy Upcoming Birthday!!!

(I am also a Scorpio. My birthday is coming up in ten days. Your invited. We’ll have cake and ice cream. Play pin the tail on the donkey. Hide and seek. Tag. Have more cake. It’ll be a blast. LOL)

D

[Valeska19]

Hi MG,
I think you did whatever everyone of us has done at some point during this journey. We temp-check to see where our partner is at. Now that you have - use the information given. And from the bleacher seats - that's pulling WAY back. There is still detachment that needs to be done.

My kissing him after the hike was in part to demonstrate that despite knowing about EA, he would be forgiven, especially if his fear of my knowing about affair is keeping him from moving forward.

He would have NO idea knowing this kiss is what you meant. And let me ask you this. Why are you kissing a man that has shown no intent of joining the marriage? We suggest no sex, no affection. It promotes cake-eating on his part.

Me. I am not in a good place with this EA confirmation. We went to EA's wedding 20 years ago. She attended ours. UGH. I've even wondered if she's in her own MLC? I know she didn't have a great marriage. She served her husband 5 years ago and they're officially D'd. How do I get past this? The betrayal wound is wide open, again..

You have to give it time. You have to allow yourself to go through the emotions that come with it. You have to do your work. Only until your self confidence is back - can you truly tell if an affair is a deal breaker or not. This is not something you share with your H in the meantime.

H: I’d still like a divorce.
M: Ok. Let’s get the process moving tomorrow? I can call an atty. (My response was from a detached and passive standpoint. I embraced the situation without hesitation – something came over me. I know the DB response is to say that it’s his D. Thoughts on my response?)
H: Well, let’s wait a bit> I need you to have medical insurance coverage. (This is a repeat convo we had the last time we talked 7 months ago and almost convenient as I raised the follow up appt for tomorrow. Would you agree? Keeping me on a string without saying so?)
M: We’re not staying married for money.
H: It’s not for money. It’s for coverage.
M: I can pay for coverage. I have a job.
H: I just can’t take the chance of going back and things are the same again.
M: I’m not fighting you. You’ve decided and as I’ve said before, I’ll give you your divorce if that’s what you want. As for me, I haven’t had a change of heart. I still remember and believe in our vows, a covenant I honor.
H: Well, I just don’t see it any other way.

Well done. I think you showed real love for YOURSELF here.

I looked into options for a litigation representative. I know this is in response to feelings having resurfaced and living in limbo. Throwing in the towel was the answer MANY times this weekend. As I felt through my heartache, I question if I really want a D or if I'm feeling the crucible that DnJ describes limbo to be... Then I wonder if I'm manipulating...as I wonder if he'd wake up. Oh feelings. Oh thoughts. Oh confusion.

Yeah the grief of a marriage dying is really REALLY hard. The emotions make the water all muddy and sometimes it's hard to see the truth and work on accepting it. I used to put up "reality check" post its all the time.

" I dont wan't a Divorce, but I have to accept that She/He Does"
" I am not throwing the towel, I am accepting that He/She Does has"
" I am moving forward with (hiring a lawyer, separting financers, etc) as a way to accept his/her decision"

I think it's really interesting that you asked yourself if you were manipulating... honestly that was my first thought with the breakfast. That you were manipulating a few things to yourself as part of the "bargaining" part of grief. It makes sense and it's okay... but do continue to try and remember what is real.

Your H is still reeling. He hasn't made any attempt to come back into the marriage.


Act accordingly to continue taking care of yourself!