My story pretty much mirrors Steve's in Chapter 9 of DR. 6 weeks ago, W told me she didn't love me anymore. I did all the wrong things with sadness/crying/pleading. We went to counseling but she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays so that's where we are.
In the meantime, I've continue to help more around the house and with the kids which I've been doing since BD but am otherwise onto The Last Resort over the past week and doing a decent job so far. However, our relationship is actually better now than it was before BD including having more sex in the past 6 weeks than we've had in the past several years. We're both treating it as solely physical, no cuddling after, very little, if any, kissing. Just raw sex, which she said she's ok with but I think we both find a bit confusing as we continue on the path to separation. Should I not be doing this?
H: 53 W: 42 3 children
Last edited by DnJ; 11/23/2403:11 PM. Reason: Corrected BD (Bomb Drop)
1. Men who are desperately trying to avoid divorce should not have sex and should definitely not initiate sex. It makes you come across as incredibly weak, because she sees a man whose heart she is breaking - still prepared to give her whatever she wants. She would actually respect you more if you had some self respect. Imagine roles reversed - you had decided to divorce your wife, and she kept trying to initiate sex with you - would it make her seem more attractive, or desperate/weak/low value?
2. You’ll come across a term around these parts called cake-eating. It essentially means someone being rewarded. She’s divorcing you, and you’re rewarding her. It’s like giving a puppy a treat when they piss on the carpet. The gentle-gentle approach to avoiding divorce doesn’t work, because they get to navigate it without losing anything. Why would she re-consider her divorce when she can continue with it, knowing she can still get sex any time? Don’t abstain to punish her because that’s manipulative - but don’t reward what she’s doing.
3. You need to get an STD test. I’m not a veteran here, but I’ve been around for a while. More than 95% of the time in situations like yours, she is having an affair (either emotional or physical). I’ve said this to newcomers before, and they say “I’m sure I’m in the 5% because she just wouldn’t do that, you don’t know my wife like I do.” Six months later, they re-appear saying there had been an affair all along. Your wife deserves zero trust right now. Look after your health, get an STD test ASAP, and have protection available if you think there’s the smallest possibility you might cave in to sex with her again.
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Yeah I would echo the previous statements. There is most likely an affair, its rare that someone can spend so many years with you, suddenly tell you they don't love you and then ask for a separation. A separation is almost always a way for them to have guilt free sex with a new person and start a relationship while keeping the comforts of the marriage. You have to make her feel she can lose you forever because she will not immediately feel that and since you are initiating sex, the last thing she'll think you'll do is to leave the marriage and her forever. Do not sleep in the same bed, do not let her have your master bedroom, she has proverbial shat on that bed. All of the benefits of a healthy marriage you should not offer her, she is essentially now a stranger and you don't sleep with strangers and they don't get to share your bed. Do not let her have her cake, she needs to have consequences from her actions through your indifference towards her.
I along with others here made many of the same mistakes that you did so if our mistakes can be a guide or lesson to you then at least our decisions are not in vein.
Get a good therapist for yourself immediately, you want someone who you can open up to that will be a professional and from the outside looking in. Do not share your feelings or your thoughts with your W, this will backfire on you and she will find any small detail or behavior and build up resentment and shift blame on your character to justify her actions. Separate all of your finances, people in this lost state of mind will completely disregard financial consideration or marital budgets. Keep an eye on her spending in any way that you can should you need the information for divorce, get your own legal counsel and have an initial consultation, you can still open a divorce petition and have room for reconciliation should you see shes willing and honest about it. You need to take control of everything in your life that pertains to you, do not let her make decisions for you, your home, your budget your kids if you have any, she has lost the right to be an equal decision making partner in your home and marriage.
I know all this sounds harsh but if you do everything right no matter what the outcome, you will be ready for whatever decision you might end up making. Also do not drink or smoke or take any substances, it will cloud your mind and make you use your focus, it will also put you on an emotional rollercoaster.
Find a way to take as many healthy supplements as you can, eat better, go to the gym, go for walks, socialize with friends. Do this for your physical health, but 10x more for your mental health as you are going to have to be mentally strong and physically healthy on this path. For me going out with people i knew or had lost touch with every weekend for a coffee was the best therapy for me, never talking about my situation but just relearning how to socialize. This will help you tremendously.
Good luck and sorry you find yourself in this situation.
Treat your wife like an acquaintance. Smile and be pleasant . Keep everything brief and to the point . One of the hardest challenges is to over come the urge to talk with your spouse about what is happening . Do not engage . It will feel really wrong . She will try to bait you . Right now her bait is sex . Keeping you just close enough . Cut out sex completely. You deserve to sleep with someone who is invested in your marriage not someone planning the great exit .
It’s nice to see catman brought up alcohol and other substances . I hadn’t seen that mentioned when I first posted . But realized quickly not to have a few drinks . The next day it caused utter turmoil for myself emotionally . I would take this suggestion strongly.
Building on the affair topic . There is most likely someone else . They are very good at hiding these affairs whether physical or emotional. They will deny and hide it to the point you think to yourself that you may be crazy for even thinking it . Protect yourself financially. The amount of money they will burn through funding their chaos can be insane .
We all stumble at times during this process . Keep posting . This is a safe space for some good feedback and once in awhile a kick in the right direction .
I don't have much to add other than an additional sorry that you find yourself hear. Focus on taking care of yourself first at this point and then your kids. You can't be your best for them if you AREN'T at your best. They need you to be at your best. Your wife has fired you as her husband. As Kind suggests, avoid doing this that reward her behavior for now. Sandi's rules (referenced in the welcome post DnJ shared) are an excellnt quick reference guide to what you should/shouldn't be doing at this point. I recognize it is hard to not take actions (like having sex) that you want to take. You have to push past that and trust what the collective experience on this board reflects on situations like ours.
Also, the odds that your relationship is truly better right now are, unfortunately, very slim. Your spouse is likely bobbling in uncertainty about what she wants and following her impulses about what feels good/right in the moment. As other suggest, this can very likely involve an affair of some sort, even if only an emotional one at this point. You can't get caught up in that for now. It will consume your thinking, stress you out, and wear you down at a time when, again, you need to be doing what it takes to get your well-being as close to 100% as possible.
In my experience, while many of us here can be direct, it is with very good intent to help you, try to guide you to avoid mistakes we've seen or made, and push back on the biases we can often have at the point you're at (to want to make the marriage work at all cost which is needy and unaatractive).
Thanks everyone for the support, this really is helpful. I uploaded the rules of detachment to NotebookLM (Googles new AI tool which is really cool if you haven't played around with it) and asked it how to respond to specific texts from W and it's advice is really impressive. For example, she texted me, "I don't know if it's the steroids [she's fighting an allergy], but I'm really emotional today, I mean more than usual."
It gave me a bunch of bullet points based on the rules of detachment, and then recommended either not responding or if I must then, "I hope your day gets better.". That response really irked her.
Welcome to the boards. I am sorry the rug has been pulled out from under you. Bomb drop is a most apt name; for it’s such a shock to the LBS.
However, your W has likely been planning things for a while. It is important for you to pull back. Way back! No pressure! Begging, pleading, pressure, all just pushes a leaving spouse out the door quicker.
W has to feel the loss before she might decided to alter her course.
How long have you two been married? First marriage for both? Age of kids? It helps in tailoring suggestions to you and your situation better.
I see you are reading DR. Excellent! Do keep it, this site, DB strategies and techniques, and your DBing efforts/reasons, to yourself. All that resource is for you, not the opposing team. And W is presently no longer on team Josh. That may change, or it may not. Time will tell.
Divorce busting is very counterintuitive in the beginning. It will likely feel wrong. It will likely go against your default ideas. Makes sense, as you’ve likely never been in such a situation as you find yourself in.
The Last Resort Technique is much like a 180, just for when the situation is more extreme. Our spouse has made it clear, in no uncertain terms that they want a divorce; there is an affair; you and your spouse are physically separated; you are living separated with very little contact; they’ve filed for divorce; etc.
Removed all pressure. Focus on you and the kids. Go dim. Be kind and cordial. Be vague. Be roommate-like.
Find detachment. It is the single best thing you can do for yourself.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
New here so maybe not try and use acronyms. By DB, I meant dropped bomb but maybe it's BD for bomb drop? Anyway, u prob get the gist.
Here is a link to many of the abbreviations used around here:
We went to counseling but she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays so that's where we are.
MC usually does not yield much success at this point. Your W is wanting out, and has been planning it for a while. The level and realism of her plan may be lacking (or not), yet that matters not. W is operating more on feelings than logic and reason. Appealing to her with logic and reason will backfire. You have to let her burn through her feelings and find her way. To feel the loss, as I mentioned before.
The idea, at some future point, W realizes: “Hey, Josh hasn’t been bugging me for quite some time and I’m still upset. Hmmm, perhaps he isn’t the cause.” With some good fortune, she will look inward.
During this time, you get your self together. Become Josh2.0. The best version of yourself. A man only a fool would leave.
Own your part of the marital strife. Fix your part! And that is through growing and evolving yourself.
You only control three things in life. Your thoughts, your actions, and your reactions. You cannot control, fix, or alter W - or anyone else. Only yourself!
However, you can and do influence by your actions or inactions.
An in-house separation is tough stuff. A few logistics if/when your situation comes to it:
Remain in the master bedroom. Let W leave. She can sleep in the spare room. You remain in MBR.
Let her own the separation. As you stated, “she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays”. You don’t want it. So don’t actively help toward that end. You don’t stand in her way, nor place boulders upon her path; yet you do not pave it in gold either. Her decision - let her do the heavy-lifting.
Be patient. Realize, doing nothing is doing something.
Focus on you. GAL. Live and love your life!
Remember, LRT is a 180 and letting go to allow her to calm and find feelings that are more helpful to your goals. Loss, shame, guilt, remorse, regret, and such. Right now she is angry, upset, excited for a new and better future, and so on. You cannot control that. You got to let her burn her way through it.
Unfortunately, lots of damage occurs during BD, the fallout/aftermath, and whatever path is taken. The level of destruction and further collateral damages can be significant. Focusing on yourself helps keep your emotional and mental health in a better place. It’s not that you are ignoring or will ignore things, just finding detachment for your DB efforts.
There is no guarantee that DB will save your marriage. However, I can guarantee that you will get out what you put in! DB will save you! Saving your marriage is actually a bonus.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
In the meantime, I've continue to help more around the house and with the kids which I've been doing since BD but am otherwise onto The Last Resort over the past week and doing a decent job so far.
Good.
Do make changes - for you! Not in some attempt to win W back. She will see right through such manipulation and shallowness.
Your changes need to be for your reasons! That way those positive changes have a much better probability of becoming permanent.
W will not, for a good long while not belief your sincerity of changes. Don’t fret, keep to your path and keep moving forward. It will take time. Much more time than you want it to. Dig for patience.
You do have the gift of time. Use it wisely.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
However, our relationship is actually better now than it was before BD including having more sex in the past 6 weeks than we've had in the past several years. We're both treating it as solely physical, no cuddling after, very little, if any, kissing. Just raw sex, which she said she's ok with but I think we both find a bit confusing as we continue on the path to separation. Should I not be doing this?
I’d recommend no sex. W has stated she wants out. Let her feel what that is.
Also, the elephant in the room. Affairs.
Oh my, it is staggering how common affairs are. In fact, I cannot recall a situation in which there was no affair.
Physical affairs (PA) or emotional affairs (EA) are so commonplace. Realize an affair is a symptom of a deep personal problem with the cheating person - not you!!
Affairs are a band-aid. An illicit relationship built upon lies and deceit. Built upon an unstable foundation akin to sand. It takes tremendous energies to maintain such a relationship and it cannot be built very high or well.
Affairs are almost always destine to fail. Both people are using the other. Often unknowingly and unwittingly in some misguided, emotionally driven, unhealthy effort to overcome/heal some internal hurt/flaw. The affair partner is actually chosen to grow up from, to use, and to leave. Like I said, chosen unknowingly and unwittingly.
Some rare affairs do grow and the couple remains. The vast majority of cases, the cheating spouse continues onto AP2, AP3, …APx. Until they face and fix whatever internal flaw it is their are trying to fix.
Remember what/who you can control. Stay clear of an affair. Getting angry, demanding she stops, just pushes them together more. It makes it them against the world.
You don’t need to condone such either. Strict boundaries against disrespect and knowing/living/standing for one’s self worth is very attractive.
At any rate, affair (or not) is at the moment unconfirmed.
I bring this up as rationale to stop allowing the cake eating. W wants out. Let her. No sex.
And, if she is straying you don’t need a STD.
It’s a big 180. And W is likely to express a lot of emotions. As well as, lash out, blame, gaslight, project. Remember, you are doing this for you. Not a manipulation. It’s for your health - mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
I uploaded the rules of detachment to NotebookLM (Googles new AI tool which is really cool if you haven't played around with it) and asked it how to respond to specific texts from W and it's advice is really impressive. For example, she texted me, "I don't know if it's the steroids [she's fighting an allergy], but I'm really emotional today, I mean more than usual."
It gave me a bunch of bullet points based on the rules of detachment, and then recommended either not responding or if I must then, "I hope your day gets better.". That response really irked her.
Validating is a difficult skill to learn and apply, especially in a situation of serious martial discourse. I’d not follow an AI algorithm. Highly unlikely it’s programming will “think” in a divorce busting manner or with those goals. AI is after general and mass market responses.
Read the validating thread. Read about detachment. Find and learn your way. Grow, evolve.
LRT, 180, you need to put a halt to, and alter the, relationship dynamics that got you here.
Validate her feelings. That is not condoning her actions, just seeing her feelings as real. For they are, to her. Again, if she is acting upon her feelings, which she likely is, poor decisions are usually made. Not your job to prevent that, or fix that.
Decisions/actions based upon emotions lead to regret.
That includes for you. Part of validating and responding is deciding what to respond to. Give yourself 24-48 hours before responding. This allows your feelings to settle, and for you to craft and deliver a response from a place of logic and reason rather than react emotionally.
The above text from W, I’d have likely remain silent. She stated no question, so there was nothing to answer. No need for you to respond. It also allows to see if she is going to prompt further.
If you listen, W will likely blurt out all kinds of stuff.
Was her text just out of the blue? Did you see her anytime before the text? Did you know her emotional state somewhat? Crying, upset, mad?
It’s tricky. You can validate, wish her a better day, and she will lash out. Sometimes that’s why she is texting you. To find a reason to get/be mad. You did well, remained calm and went about your day.
Keep moving forward.
I look forward to conversing with you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hey, JoshSco. I'm not familiar with Perel, so I just read up on her. It's hard to tell how credible her work is from a quick skim. That said, trying to figure out why your W sent you these podcasts or her general motivations right now is what you may have heard referred to in this forum as going down a "cheeseless tunnel." Imagine yourself running around like a rat in a maze where there may be no reward to find. It may be that she's trying to take the temperature of your relationship, probably to make sure she's still got you on a short leash. Or, it may be that she's hoping to use Perel's approach as a means to excuse her behavior, reconcile, or who knows what.
As you may guess by now, this wouldn't be something I'd suggest you do, at least for now, if you don't mind. Listen to the podcast if you'd like...or don't. If you do, see what you can take away for yourself to put into practice. What do you hear that helps YOU over the marriage for now? It is just too soon (based on my personal experience and from reading tons of similar situations on this board) to expect some kind of epiphany on her part around reconciliation.
Also, you want to make yourself as much of a mystery to her as possible for now. If she asks what you thought about the podcasts, keep your answers as brief as possible. Perhaps say "I hope to get to that at some point," or "I'm still processing what I heard". The fewer words (and the more they don't promote more conversation for now) the better.
Research Perel if you'd like. See what reviews on her reflect. What are the pros and cons of her approach? If you know any therapists, ask for their opinion or consult one through an employee assistant program you may have at work. My bottom line recommendation is that, if you do it, do it for your self-improvement.
Thanks D, NotebookLM is a little different as it only considers the sources you load into it. Below is its full response based on the following prompt I asked it: How do I respond to the following text from someone I am trying to detach from: "It may be the meds but I'm incredibly emotional today (I mean moreso than usual.)"
Responding With Detachment
The sources provide helpful advice on how to respond to someone you are trying to detach from, particularly when they are attempting to elicit an emotional response. The most important point to remember is to maintain emotional boundaries and avoid getting drawn back into the cycle of dependence.
The text you received is a clear example of how someone might try to engage your emotions. By stating they are "incredibly emotional" and "more so than usual," the person is hoping to evoke sympathy or concern.
Falling back into old patterns of fixing, rescuing, or enabling will only perpetuate the unhealthy dynamic. Detachment requires you to prioritize your well-being and resist the urge to control or change the other person's emotions. Here are some possible responses that prioritize detachment:
Acknowledge their statement without engaging emotionally: "I hear that you're having a tough day." This validates their feelings without taking on responsibility for them.
Redirect the conversation: "I hope you find some ways to feel better. I'm busy right now." This establishes a boundary and avoids getting pulled into a lengthy discussion.
Limit your interaction: If you feel overwhelmed, it's okay to disengage entirely. You don't owe anyone an explanation for prioritizing your own emotional health. Remember, detachment is a process. It takes time and effort to break free from unhealthy patterns of relating. Be patient with yourself and continue to work on establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries. The sources emphasize that you deserve healthy relationships, and detachment can be a path toward achieving that.
Also, one of the cooler things NotebookLM does is create a two-person podcast on anything you upload to it. I uploaded 3 months of texts between my W and I and it produced a 25 minute podcast analyzing our relationship. It was pretty wild.
Josh, I am really happy you have joined community here. I hope we can be kind and supportive and that you come out the other side strong and well.
My W has sent me lots of links and memes etc of various relationship stuff. Mostly, I take it with a grain of salt and don’t try to figure out what she is meaning when she sends them. It could mean any of a million things depending on her emotional state at the time.
I really like perel. I think she in insightful and can be helpful when couples want to connect and form healthy R.
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, except this:
Don't mistake your relationship being better now as a sign she is changing her mind on the separation. When my XW bombdropped me, i practiced the last resort techniques, and for about 6 weeks, aside from not having sex, our relationship was awesome. When she had the next divorce conversation, I was a bit surprised, and told her things have been good, she's been happier, etc. That's when she said something along the lines of 'yeah, i'm happy now because this weight's been lifted off my shoulders and we're finally moving towards divorce.'
As others have said, try to refrain from having sex with her.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Here's the latest. I know everyone said to refrain from sex but part of having quite a bit of it the last month or so is that it's part of my 180. She's always wanted more but my libido sucked. I went on testosterone replacement therapy right when we first started couple's therapy and before she decided we needed to separate and I feel 25 years younger in just about all facets of life: libido, energy, mental health, less inflammation, making gains at the gym that I haven't in years. Pretty amazing and wish I had gone on it when she first suggested it a year ago. Other than the sex though, I think I've been doing a good job disconnecting and we're moving forward with the apartment rental which we will rotate using on a weekly basis while our 3 daughters stay at the house as well as the separation mediator to help us figure out the expenses during the 3-month trial separation (and whatever comes after that). I just got the email below and wondering if/how I should respond. Thanks as usual for all the great support!
From W:
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
Here are some things I would like to say but I'm not sure they are helpful:
1) some type of validation of her feelings 2) telling her that I don't agree with calling it quits as I think our relationship going forward is likely to be a lot better than it ever been has but I can only control me so I've learned to accept it and am moving on
The entire thing is about her. Her feelings, her thoughts, what she wants, what she needs, etc, etc. The only times she really mentions you is telling you what you did wrong.
Not one time did she say anything about your wants or needs, what's best for the children, etc.
Obviously all this makes sense, since she's writing it from her point of view, and trying to explain where she's at.
The point I"m trying to make is, in all her years of 'soul searching', 'healing', etc, did it ever cross her mind to say "what can I do to improve/save our marriage?" From what I just read, the answer is 'no'. She also stated that she hasn't loved you for the last 8 years. So that means for 8 years, she's been emotionally unavailable, and probably putting little effort into the marriage.
Obviously you've made mistakes and you're not perfect. Nobody is. But you've essentially been living in a lie for a long time. The person you thought you were with didn't exist. For 8 years she's been planning an exit.
How should you reply? I don't know. The experts here can provide help with that. I'd just recommend not to get into a 'back and forth' with her about who did what. I also wouldn't apologize for your past mistakes. I'm sure you already did that, and it served no purpose. If it were me, I'd probably just write something like "thank you for the detailed explanation".
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Here are some things I would like to say but I'm not sure they are helpful:
1) some type of validation of her feelings 2) telling her that I don't agree with calling it quits as I think our relationship going forward is likely to be a lot better than it ever been has but I can only control me so I've learned to accept it and am moving on
Again, why say anything? She didn't ask you any questions.
Validation is good, but it's tricky. It's even trickier to pull off over an email or text, because it can come across as scripted and insincere.
She already knows you don't agree with calling it quits. No need to repeat it.
Saying you're 'moving on' isn't wise. Words are meaningless. You need to show you're moving on through actions, not words.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Much of this email is boilerplate "reasons" (excuses?) for leaving a marriage. "I've outgrown you" is a classic. Much according to script.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle.
Your emotions are yours to handle...why is she taking responsibility to manage them?
Originally Posted by Terapin
The point I"m trying to make is, in all her years of 'soul searching', 'healing', etc, did it ever cross her mind to say "what can I do to improve/save our marriage?" From what I just read, the answer is 'no'.
Feels like female solipsism. Google is your friend here. She directly says it's about herself and her feelings. I ran smack into a version in my XW. She said I was distant and didn't make her feel XXXXXX over the last years but OM did. Few to no actions by her over the years to address what she now claims to be marriage ending lack of attention. Not a single word of things she wasn't doing for me. It is/was all about her.
My view was different...but it takes two.
Originally Posted by @GiaMMacool on X
If a woman shouldn’t leave her husband when he becomes unsuccessful, sick or old.
A man shouldn’t leave when his wife becomes fat, sick or old.
Neither of you should run away.
That’s what “til death due you part” means.
You stick it out together, regardless of what’s changed.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23 DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W moves out 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
XX W
How did you feel reading that ?
Do you feel that there is any truth in her words ???
As for a response....
I would say....
Thank you for sharing
Any words from you that she perceives as contradictory, will only invalidate her feelings.
Ill be completely honest. I would have killed for even a fraction of this type of response, rather than all the blame and lack of self awareness, that being said all you can do is validate the feelings but not contradict anything. Im sure a lot of this email is a rewritten version of actual events and a type of recency bias but in the end you have to keep doing whats best for yourself and maybe everything else will fall into place one way or snother. Theres still a high likelihood of an affair as an affair makes its easier to compare a short term fling and exaggerate the differences, so keep this in mind
And NOT by text.....wait until in person and ONLY IF SHE BRINGS UP THE TOPIC.
Do not focus on what you can't change (your W). Focus on the things that you can change. Take a good hard look at your behaviors, the way you interact with other, your beliefs, your thought process, the words you use, the tone, inflections, facial expressions, body language ect.
Decide if any of them need changes. Work on making positive changes from this day forward. You have been given a great gift, even if you can't see it right now.
Learn about attraction and seduction and understand the difference.
Personally, I would make EVERY future bedroom encounter a pleasant surprise for her. She thinks she knows you, prove her wrong. Be different. Make her question her choices.
STFU. Listen. The fewer words you use, the better.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Here's the latest. I know everyone said to refrain from sex but part of having quite a bit of it the last month or so is that it's part of my 180. She's always wanted more but my libido sucked. I went on testosterone replacement therapy right when we first started couple's therapy and before she decided we needed to separate and I feel 25 years younger in just about all facets of life: libido, energy, mental health, less inflammation, making gains at the gym that I haven't in years. Pretty amazing and wish I had gone on it when she first suggested it a year ago. Other than the sex though, I think I've been doing a good job disconnecting and we're moving forward with the apartment rental which we will rotate using on a weekly basis while our 3 daughters stay at the house as well as the separation mediator to help us figure out the expenses during the 3-month trial separation (and whatever comes after that). I just got the email below and wondering if/how I should respond. Thanks as usual for all the great support!
From W:
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
XX W
100%… without a shadow of a doubt… she’s involved with someone else.
Imagine you were happily married to a good man. Things went slowly downhill and you started to feel disconnected. Then, after years, this man suddenly pulls up his socks and starts doing all the right things.
Wouldn’t you be happy? Wouldn’t you be overjoyed?
I received a letter like this and was perplexed that when things were supposedly better, she still wanted out. Turns out she was banging one of the Dad’s from youngest son’s soccer team.
This letter reads EXACTLY like someone wanting to make their affair someone else’s fault. “Yes you’ve changed, yes you were a wonderful husband, but because you did xyz it’s permanently damaged me and so I have to divorce you.”
This is actually someone trying to make themselves feel better for THEIR decision and choices by making it your fault. What she’s wanting is you to validate her choice with something like “I can see how what I did has made you feel that way.” Then she gets a guilt free divorce.
This is why you should have stopped having sex with her. This is how it has played out in her mind: 1. Life is sh*t 2. Told him I want a divorce 3. Life has been great since that day.
Of course she’s going to continue down this path, it’s been giving her great results so far!
How to reply - TBH, I don’t think there’s a good way to reply to that. I think I’d just ignore it.
Please stop being mr nice guy, please stop sleeping with her. I’d move stuff out of the main bedroom, tell her you don’t want this but you respect her decision, and ask her when she’s moving out.
