Still detaching and embracing my new normal

[Valeska19]

So no text from H last night to wish a happy new year to me. Unlike last year, he did text the kids. Yay!!!

Glad he texted the kids. Trust me when I say it would hurt either way.

Today I get a very superficial text without any happy new year wishes.

H: I need to grab a couple of clothes from the house.

Suggestions on my response?:
I packed up your belongings in the summer; please make sure to take everything you need. The only day I can this week is Friday at 6.

I would ignore it and not respond. This is only a short term band-aid.

The real question is are you ready to take the bigger step? He's going to keep coming over until you stop it.

If you truly want this to stop (which FYI is another painful step of surrendering) it would be.

"I think it is time you grab all of your things so you no longer need to continually stop by. I have packed up all and it is located in the garage You can grab them on Friday at 6. If that doesn't work. please provide an alternative time. Whatever you do not grab will be put up for donation"

Honestly - He sounds like one of my kids in daycare. That is no way to ask to come to the house. What a manbaby.

[MamaG]

Totally agree that he is definitely being a baby and perhaps even a coward.

he is looking for clothes to take on his sailing trip. Potentially even a suitcase or two from the house. I’m totally comfortable with not responding. After all, there was no question asked.

Inevitably, he will figure that out and send a text with the question in the next couple of days at which point I can respond with your suggestion.

It certainly is possible that he just comes here at a time that he thinks I’m not home or that I’m actually not home, which is worse. This is not me acting out of fear as much as it is my reality. At the end of the day, he has access to the house.

[DnJ]

Hello MG

”The AP being a surrogate parent or authority figure to rebel against and grow up from "

Can you elaborate on how this may take place? What may be said as a way to grow? What may transpire that H grows from? What could it look like in their interactions.

First off, remember the affair is merely a symptom of a deep emotional problem that already existed. A problem that was buried and hidden away many years ago.

The replay stage of a crisis is a time of emotional regression. The MLCer is transported back to “when” they were younger. The time of their trauma(s). The time when their authority figure(s) let them down. For most crisis folks, the authority figure is one or both parents.

Once a crisis starts the person is drawn in, is consumed. They become the opposite of who they once were. They regress and relive from their emotional stunting in an effort to grow up.

As they are different and depressed and confused - the major hallmarks of a crisis - they begin to subconsciously search for a partner that is just like them. An emotional “mirror” of them. Broken attracting broken.

Parents raise their children to be just like them. The child taking on, adopting, similar attitudes, thinking, ways of doing things, etc. And the problems handed down.

The affair partner is just like the MLCer’s parents. The crisis individual subconsciously, unwittingly, seeking and finding an emotional “mirror” of their parent. To outgrow a wrong dynamic, that same dynamic has to be recreated to grow up from.

With this, best case crisis scenario as plenty of MLCers get stuck, the MLCer will learn to make the emotional break they should have made with/from their parents as young adult which they never did. They never became full mature adults as they were meant to be. This is the purpose the affair partner serves.

Contrary to popular belief, sex is not the primary reason for an affair of this kind. Unless the crisis person has a sexual-based trauma, complication, or some such. The MLCer is using the AP for emotional needs. The AP is using the MLCer for money, security, upkeep, whatever. It’s the MLCer’s “inner child” who begins and maintains the affair.

The crisis dredges up this hurt “inner child”. The MLCer subconsciously seeks and finds someone like themselves (and parents). The MLCer is hurt and desperately seeking that unconditional love they never received as a child. The AP, the emotional “mirror” reflects back exactly that. Without judgement. Without reservation. The AP fitting the emotional needs of the MLCer, for a time.

Even if the affair partner is not quite a mirror, the MLCer will ignore those parts. So desperate they are. So misguided their feelings. They will confusingly mistake this crafted dynamic as “soulmate” or “true luv”. Neither of which is true.

The affair, the crisis, is about the most painful trauma of their childhood. The affair is all about control, emotional blackmail, manipulation, and misplaced responsibilities. All issues that were created back in their childhood.

As I said, the AP fits for a time. And nothing lasts forever. As the MLCer starts to grow and mature with their self, they start to outgrow this “need”, this surrogate parent. The illicit relationship has outlived its usefulness, The MLCer starts looking for a way to exit/end the affair. This usually get really messy.

The MLCer wants out, but doesn’t know how to. And wants as little drama as possible. The AP becomes desperate and will employ many dirty tactics.

The growing/waking up MLCer realizes just how far they’ve fallen. How they threw their morality in the gutter. All their teenage-like behaviours which no one could tell them anything of. For they felt they knew it all. They had the world by the tail. In time, they find how very wrong they were. And how much they threw away.

The MLC affair ends when the crisis person has no further “need” of it, and they grow strong enough to end it. Until then, they are deep in infatuation and there is not one thing anyone can do about it.

As LBS, we are left to walk our life. Live our life. Love our life.

Be kind to your once loving, now crisis spouse. Do nothing, say nothing you will regret later. The midlife crisis person may not remember the good you did, but they will recall all the bad things and how you treated them while they were within the depths of their emotional abyss.

Besides, what would it serve you. Seek to forgive instead.

D

[MamaG]

The cold and immature text on 1/1 without NY wishes was just the beginning of interactions. Things didn't go as I expected. Not surprising since we know to have no expectations. I wasn't prepared for how things unfolded and I felt Him take over. I love giving things to the almighty but can be left in confusion which makes me wonder if it was God or the other guy.

How did it play out?
I ignored the 1/1 text. Nothing on 1/2. On 1/3, I get a text mid-afternoon that he's coming to the house to get a coat. No other comments. No questions. H didn't think I was home and was telling me that he was stopping at the house. This is the first H has done this.

Nonetheless, I didn't respond to the text and 10 minutes later, H showed up at the house. H carried in a package that had been delivered at the garage and came in with a subtle limp - not as deep as in Dec.

I meet him downstairs and take the package from him.

M: Thanks.
H: I coming to get my coat. I have 30 minutes and am leaving for my trip.
M: Oh, I didn't know when you were going.
H: I told you I was going in Jan. (I stared at him in confusion. Exactly how was I to know when he was leaving? I digress.)
M: Your belongings are all down here. I told you I packed your stuff up in July. Remember? (Walking him to the space where his boxes are.)
H: (He has no words. His eyes land on a pile of boxes all neatly stacked in several piles.)
M: It's in there somewhere. Do you ever plan to come get your things?
H: Yes, I will.

H is holding back words and emotions while hiding behind a poker face, a mask. It was hard to tell what was running through his head. I just stared back at him.

H: It's alright. I don't need it.

H walks out of the space and towards the garage. Standing at the door, he looks back at me. I stare at him with no words. I feel myself melting. I wasn't prepared for this interaction and I know he's off to a trip on waters. Running through my head is the anxious attacher that remains to be healed.

H: What?
M: Nothing.
H: Bye

His stare and word felt so cold and emotionless. Possibly due to awareness of his reality that his past sits in boxes in the basement.

M: Can I have a hug? That is, if you want one too.
H: Yes, I'd like one and he walks over and embraces me.

I feel tightness and warmth. I melt again. Loving every second and feeling relief. My head is racing as I know this isn't DBing yet I felt the intensity and carry on.

M: Alright, you gotta go. Have fun and please be careful. Can I ask you to let me know that you've arrived safely?
H: Yes. What happened to your upper lip?
M: Long story.

After a bit of just looking at each other, I said, "It needs a boo-boo kiss."

What in the whole world am I doing? Am I testing him? This isn't DBing! Yet, it felt so right. And this makes sense since DBing is still counterintuitive. Temptation? Who knows.

For me, it was wonderful to see and connect with my long lost husband whom I miss dearly. Even if the connection was only 1-way and it was with the alien.

Without hesitation H comes over and kisses me. H was gentle and passionate. Not the teenager behavior from just a year ago. It was different than what I've felt. Clearly, I know that this is temporary but even temporary was welcomed. Have I mentioned how much I miss my H?

While he turns the other way, my eyes glance at the wedding band he's sporting on this 2 week vacation with 10+ people, including his HS friend and EA. While I can't say why H continues to sport his band, I realize that he's wearing it despite not thinking I would be home when he stopped in.

At this point, I realize that I may be erasing DBing measures I've worked so hard for. I'm questioning if I'm going back on some unspoken boundaries? Contradicting how I've behaved? I did a 180 reverting back to the wife he recognizes. Was it a reminder he needed? Certainly, I know better. It was so confusing and it all happened so fast.

I'm left hoping that IF I've erased any progress, there is a chance that I've reminded him of what true love is. What emotional connection really feels like. And, that I am safe. It was clear at this point that it was us back in the day even if just for a few minutes.

I held his face in my hands. We gazed into each other's eyes (which has become a thing...a thing I fight and he pursues.) Staring into his eyes, I calmly whispered a reminder that I'm his wife and he knows my boundaries. He confirmed with a soft, "I know. I won't do anything stupid."

Yes, I'm aware that this won't stop H from doing what he may or may not do. Yet, teenagers need reminders and so I sent the message. H nodded and swore that there isn't anything physical going on. (I know MLCers lie and I don't have any confidence that the EA is/isn't a PA. When he confirmed that there is nothing going on, I listened. I neither challenged nor celebrated.)

H kissed me again. I told him I love him and with certainty in his voice, H told me he loves me. H then proceeded to accelerate physical intimacy and without hesitation, I pulled back. I told him to have fun and he was off. "I don't do hit 'n runs.'

Since there is nothing I can do to help or hurt the process, the exchange was worth it to me in the moment. The impact this interaction has on his trip? Who knows. I'll look for his actions upon his return and expect no change. I'll return to NC unless it's business.

Separately, I spent the day with D yesterday as we adventured to the city for the day. (I'm still cancer-free!!) She mentioned that H finally visited her place and brought her Christmas gifts. She noted that H still isn't asking many questions about her, but that H did ask her how he did with gift giving for the holidays. Do you think niece liked x? Was it a good idea to get nephew y? Fear of rejection is what I heard. H is growing up. D is healing. I can see it all come together.

I'm hopeful.

I'll return to NC.

I'm back to work and busy. Job security is good. I enjoyed lunch with H's nephew this past weekend (his invite bc he got me a gift.) I have some dinner plans this week and weekend. I keep on GALing.

DnJ - thank you for the explanation of affair partners. I trust (bc I've read it often and you say so) that the affair partner is used in the journey. Understanding has been a challenge from an intellectual standpoint. But, I'll either figure it out or accept it. Whichever comes first. Talk about counterintuitive, lol.

[grok]

Hey MamaG,

This has been on my mind. As I have much to learn and it is a difficult subject for me.

I've been giving this a lot of thought. S is so much like H. Can talk for hours about superficial things. Dives deep into work and feels such satisfaction from his accolades. It's so rare that feelings come through in discussions. Emotions are rare.

...I clarified that I wish that we talked more about his feelings/emotions through the years bc suppressing feelings isn't healthy. I told S I wish I knew more about how he feels about things. S was receptive when I said, "I wish he was born with a manual on how to raise a child." We laughed and S agreed that I did the best I could and started to talk me through what I great job I did. It was a beautiful moment but we haven't talked feelings since then. If I share my feelings, S is receptive to listening. Doesn't expand though. How do I get him to open up without making it look like that's what I'm doing?

I had a few quotes from elsewhere to help explain, but at least one of the accounts is now deleted. *sigh* Still. My perception of what you wrote and my own experience is that you may be missing his masculine emotional communication. He may not be able to express it in feminine language.

I'm certainly no expert, though on this subject I have learned more in the last two years than all the rest of my life. Men do not communicate emotions the same way as women. Talking about how you feel or talking with the indirect motive of communicating how you feel is a very feminine method of expression. We also have a very different experience when we do express them. Especially to women. Loss of respect and the ick is often what we expect and experience from women.

This illustrates some - The following quote was in response to a video floating around the internet, recorded by his wife, at his surprise request because he wanted to say something. In it a man is sitting holding an almost empty spool of wire. She asks him what he is doing sitting there...she thought he was working...what did he want? He explains/tells a story of how this spool of wire has been with him for almost 40 years. And how it relates to different activities over the years and how it being almost empty is like closing a part of his life. His wife responds in a dismissive casual tone "Oh, you had your Jets hat on. I thought that's why you were crying." The man pauses, his face falls, he quietly says "I'm done," and walks away.

It wasn't about the spool of wire. It his expression for his deep emotions about life and contemplations of mortality.

Man just shared a piece of his legacy, his soul; something that has been with him as long, or longer, than she has. An old, reliable friend he could count on & go back to again & again. That spool of wire wasn't just a way to keep track of the passage of time, but represents how much he's sacrificed of himself for the people he cares for & she utterly dismissed him.

Women ask us men to share our feelings with them, so they can understand us better, and when we do we get this [censored]. Then they wonder why we’re angry, closed off, secluded ourselves, build up walls, and so on. It’s partially because we didn’t share the way THEY wanted us to share, or they really don’t care, and asked out of some planned reason, which is immediately takes a sharp turn into something else that doesn’t even compute with why we’re opening ourselves up in the first damn place. Which is what they wanted us to do to begin with. Damned if you damned if you don’t.

i know this is just one video, but it truly is emblematic of what it’s like to be a man

the women in your life will tell you to “open up more” and “show your emotions” and the very first time you muster the strength to actually do so, they will respond with such utter contempt it forces you to reconsider every emotion you’ve ever felt

and do not read this as some incel, woman-hating, “men need to be alpha males” bs post. i’ve had plenty of amazing, loving relationships with women in my life. my mother raised me well. this is not a slight on women. this is more of societal critique than anything.

men have a natural instinct to display strength and emotional resolve. this is normal and good, i think. but yes, we are also emotional creatures. we just don’t show that outwardly very often — but when we DO, ladies…ladies, you must understand how important these moments are. one wrong move and you’ve shattered your man’s ability to go there with you, to go to those emotional depths.

we closely guard these depths. and in the rare instance we choose to let you see them, you need to act wisely. let this be a cautionary tale.

Crossing this communication barrier is difficult for most of us. I know it is for me.

g

[MamaG]

G, thank you for sharing this with me. It’s very insightful and something for me to listen for. As I read through your note to me, I can’t help but remember my husband saying that I don’t listen to him. I felt like I always listened. Perhaps this is how he feels and I never saw it. There certainly is a difference between hearing and listening and this is what I hear you point out. if you’re looking to call something else out, please clarify.

Perhaps my son is sharing feelings in ways I’m not hearing.

Hope you’re doing well.

[Valeska19]

I tried to look back at your other thread to see if H broke things off with OW. I didn't see it so I'm basing my feedback on the fact that he is still engaged with her.

Overall I am not sure why you want to be battling against another woman. I'm sure it doesnt really feel good knowing that he is cake eating by having you both? Just curious on what your thought process is.

M: Thanks.
H: I coming to get my coat. I have 30 minutes and am leaving for my trip.
M: Oh, I didn't know when you were going.
H: I told you I was going in Jan. (I stared at him in confusion. Exactly how was I to know when he was leaving? I digress.)
M: Your belongings are all down here. I told you I packed your stuff up in July. Remember? (Walking him to the space where his boxes are.)
H: (He has no words. His eyes land on a pile of boxes all neatly stacked in several piles.)
M: It's in there somewhere. Do you ever plan to come get your things?
H: Yes, I will.

H is holding back words and emotions while hiding behind a poker face, a mask. It was hard to tell what was running through his head. I just stared back at him.

H: It's alright. I don't need it.

H walks out of the space and towards the garage. Standing at the door, he looks back at me. I stare at him with no words. I feel myself melting. I wasn't prepared for this interaction and I know he's off to a trip on waters. Running through my head is the anxious attacher that remains to be healed.

H: What?
M: Nothing.
H: Bye

His stare and word felt so cold and emotionless. Possibly due to awareness of his reality that his past sits in boxes in the basement.

M: Can I have a hug? That is, if you want one too.
H: Yes, I'd like one and he walks over and embraces me.

I feel tightness and warmth. I melt again. Loving every second and feeling relief. My head is racing as I know this isn't DBing yet I felt the intensity and carry on.

M: Alright, you gotta go. Have fun and please be careful. Can I ask you to let me know that you've arrived safely?
H: Yes. What happened to your upper lip?
M: Long story.

After a bit of just looking at each other, I said, "It needs a boo-boo kiss."

What in the whole world am I doing? Am I testing him? This isn't DBing! Yet, it felt so right. And this makes sense since DBing is still counterintuitive. Temptation? Who knows.

For me, it was wonderful to see and connect with my long lost husband whom I miss dearly. Even if the connection was only 1-way and it was with the alien.

Without hesitation H comes over and kisses me. H was gentle and passionate. Not the teenager behavior from just a year ago. It was different than what I've felt. Clearly, I know that this is temporary but even temporary was welcomed. Have I mentioned how much I miss my H?

To Me - This is you being uncomfortable with MG 2.0. It's a process to set boundaries and its quite painful to change a behavior that serves you well. You're pattern is a little bit 2 steps forward/ 1 step back. You had some really good detachment and then you crumbled. It's normal but realize this is more about changing a dance than anything else.

While he turns the other way, my eyes glance at the wedding band he's sporting on this 2 week vacation with 10+ people, including his HS friend and EA. While I can't say why H continues to sport his band, I realize that he's wearing it despite not thinking I would be home when he stopped in.

Careful at putting too much stock into this. You are looking for actions not symbols.

At this point, I realize that I may be erasing DBing measures I've worked so hard for. I'm questioning if I'm going back on some unspoken boundaries? Contradicting how I've behaved? I did a 180 reverting back to the wife he recognizes. Was it a reminder he needed? Certainly, I know better. It was so confusing and it all happened so fast.

I'm left hoping that IF I've erased any progress, there is a chance that I've reminded him of what true love is. What emotional connection really feels like. And, that I am safe. It was clear at this point that it was us back in the day even if just for a few minutes.

I held his face in my hands. We gazed into each other's eyes (which has become a thing...a thing I fight and he pursues.) Staring into his eyes, I calmly whispered a reminder that I'm his wife and he knows my boundaries. He confirmed with a soft, "I know. I won't do anything stupid."

Yes, I'm aware that this won't stop H from doing what he may or may not do. Yet, teenagers need reminders and so I sent the message. H nodded and swore that there isn't anything physical going on. (I know MLCers lie and I don't have any confidence that the EA is/isn't a PA. When he confirmed that there is nothing going on, I listened. I neither challenged nor celebrated.)

Oh MG. True love is definitely not going to be in the form of a kiss. Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

H kissed me again. I told him I love him and with certainty in his voice, H told me he loves me. H then proceeded to accelerate physical intimacy and without hesitation, I pulled back. I told him to have fun and he was off. "I don't do hit 'n runs.'

Good for you! I'm glad your senses kicked back in...lol.

Since there is nothing I can do to help or hurt the process, the exchange was worth it to me in the moment. The impact this interaction has on his trip? Who knows. I'll look for his actions upon his return and expect no change. I'll return to NC unless it's business.

A little bit all over the place with this paragraph... which is normal. Do you think it was worth it or did you backslide? You are kind of saying both.

You can most certainly help or hurt the process. The process of YOUR healing. The process of YOUR growth.

I'm glad you are going back to NC. It seems your H upped the dance - and got you to join. We all have done this at some point in our journey but is this the dance your want? Do you want to have a moment of intimacy followed by him going back to his old life?

You are coming up on 2 years here... what would you like the next year of your life to look like?

[MamaG]

It's been cold. Grocery shopping and filling the gas tank required some bundling over the weekend. Changed dog foods and both Dog1 and Dog2 have had more energy. They seem more alert and more interested in play time. The family celebrated mom/dad's anniversary and now I sit on the couch with a cup a coffee, a blanket and two dogs as I cool down from shoveling 5 inches. A 1/2 mile driveway has it's benefits but not so much when it requires attention. Oof. That was a workout! Trump's inauguration events are underway in the background. Before I get to some additional household chores, I'll journal and provide an update on me. Valeska - thanks for your response and for not giving up on me. Not that I thought you would but I also realize that one can only 2x4 someone so many times for the same issues.

Overall I am not sure why you want to be battling against another woman. I'm sure it doesnt really feel good knowing that he is cake eating by having you both? Just curious on what your thought process is.

To answer this question right away...H has made strides to pull away from EA, but has not fully let go. Frankly, from my seat, EA has pulled away from him leaving H with no choice. Probably of little relevance but I believe EA has been in her own MLC for the last 4 years. My H is the OM2 for her. EA made it clear in July/Aug that their R wasn't going further. The trip they were both on (last 2 weeks) was booked in Mar/Apr when H was still in limerence.

With that out of the way, allow me to pour myself out in hopes that you (others) can tell me, "here's where the confusion lies" or "stop people pleasing bc you can't nice him back" or whatever other direction strikes you as you read through my confusion. Maybe it even sounds something like, let's give H some communication (a try) by entertaining superficial convos, but the risk you run is....

This forum focuses on dropping the rope. Don't respond to H and if I must, wait a day or 2. Leave him to his issues, bad decisions, emotions. I'll know when H has returned but until then don't ride the emotional rollercoaster.

Other views are to support reconciliation by showing compassion, patience, and a willingness to rebuild trust to create a path forward. Respond to texts showing grace and kindness so that H isn't afraid to reach out and trust me when he's ready. I may even argue that this forum is supportive of these sentiments too. I translate these to be more direct and possibly frequent than is recommended.

To Me - This is you being uncomfortable with MG 2.0. It's a process to set boundaries and its quite painful to change a behavior that serves you well. You're pattern is a little bit 2 steps forward/ 1 step back. You had some really good detachment and then you crumbled. It's normal but realize this is more about changing a dance than anything else.

Probable. Harder to see in my seat than yours but I respect your view. Reason for pause.

"Serves you well" is what I question. what I fight. what I am uncertain about.

Conflicting thoughts are still here...while I've gotten more comfortable with NC except for business items.
-How am I ever to reconcile with H if I do not ever see him?
-As a dismissive avoidant, the courage to approach me will diminish if H's fears don't resolve.
-If I don't see H, I am not easily shaken. But, in his presence, it's over. Still, I don't want to fully avoid him and I need to consider what I want too. Am I to avoid his presence for months, years, etc? that doesn't feel like the answer, yet H needs space. Oh the conflict.
-Then there are varying degrees of everyday actions/inactions. There is more than one school of thought on how to 'behave' in a spouse's midlife crisis. I've tried a couple approaches; neither has been fully successful. I get that when the time is right, it'll happen. Perhaps patience needs refining.
-Listening to stories of other LBS', I realize how mild my H's crisis is in comparison. This isn't intended to minimize what H may be contending with but what is clear is that H hasn't washed me away. What if WE could pave H a healthier path so that H can see the journey through with less pain? Is that not my obligation...'in sickness and in health'?

Oh MG. True love is definitely not going to be in the form of a kiss. Sure - intimacy matters... but in this case - true love is letting H hit rock bottom. He is not a teenager that needs reminding. He's a grown man that needs to figure out his sh!t. Try to see him that way.

I have spent the last year (found out about MLC in Feb 2023) focused in thought, on intelligence and with a firm resolution as I navigated my fears, emotions and household responsibilities. Some of these were easier to overcome than others.

I've learned that men (generally speaking) value intimacy differently than women. I never gave it mind space before the crisis. I am the 'general' woman. I crave the intimacy bc it makes me feel loved and connected. Even if love isn't what was being delivered, I'm human and asked for the hugs. Kisses. Him. What I am now aware of is that what I take away may not be what's being delivered. Am, I was ok with it in that moment. And then I returned to hope and NC.

Good for you! I'm glad your senses kicked back in...lol.

I was ok with what I asked for (for me) - a hug, a kiss. I got more than I asked for with the kiss. It took deliberate restraint on my end as H was ready to roll. I listened to myself and the furtherance didn't feel right and so I stopped it and he respected. I sensed a bit of rejection which I'm not overthinking....just sharing.

You are coming up on 2 years here... what would you like the next year of your life to look like?

I don't want to relive 2024. In 2025, I want to support my kids. I want to live a life I love. I want to reconnect with H. Do for myself. And, I want to begin sharing a life with H. The latter is what I can't control. Still, that's the truth and I ponder how to influence much against advice.

Putting me first sometimes comes with temptations for physical needs. The question I also face is whether I can live with dismissive avoidant traits and whether I can adjust my needy self in order to live a life that I enjoy. I know it isn't fully my choice but I somehow know (something tells me you'll challenge me) that I can play a role in H's return and that may mean that his return is still an imperfect H returning to an imperfect me. I'm not suggesting overlooking my needs, but rather considering whether a life with H would

I know I am strong and resilient. I have prepared for what I need to do while H addresses (or lives with) his emotional turmoil in 2024. I didn't break him and therefore can't fix him. Intellectually, I know this. Then, I get waves of what I call 'courage'. Is it courage or weakness if I consider ideas on how to resolve? Hold the hand. Nudge. Soften the depression pain.

I reason that if I overcome fear of rejection/failure while respecting his process will demonstrate strength and resolve. Perhaps hold his hand through the mental illness, the crisis.

Still...

Avoiding and not responding is standing still. And standing still is still standing. See the confusion in my world? Is it my 'laziness' from fear/excuses/avoidance justifying inaction? Is my laziness leading to stagnation, suffering and missed opportunities?

I'm glad you are going back to NC. It seems your H upped the dance - and got you to join. We all have done this at some point in our journey but is this the dance your want? Do you want to have a moment of intimacy followed by him going back to his old life?

Didn't see it as a dance. H is on his journey and it is evident that growth has taken place for both us as individuals. Not as a R. H hasn't texted/called/written/sent a pigeon since the hug/kiss.

If you ask me, H hit rock bottom in Aug 2024 and has been reflecting. And over the last 45 days has been reaching out to the kids quite a bit. While on his 2 week adventure, with EA, a close childhood friend (who has always behaved like a teenager) and 8 others who are near strangers to him, H texted the kids multiple times a day. Sending pics of the waves, sunrise, and himself. I believe his 'happy look' may or may not be a facade. What a change from 2024 while the kids heard less from him the entire year as compared to the last 2 weeks. No text to me despite the sought intimacy on the day H left. Is H realizing his losses in a deeper way? Is H reconnecting? Hindsight will be 20/20.

Depression continues to consume H and it's obvious that his actions don't match his words. In October he shared his reflections and voiced some faults he saw in himself. How do I leave him out to dry like he did to me? Tit for tat isn't my style...but I can predict you telling me to not see it as tit for tat. Rather it's protecting me. Respecting me.

H is moving along on his journey and has dipped many toes in depression/withdrawal. H is reconnecting. I want to be prepared and diligent. Deliberate.

I've had many wins along the journey in support of PIES growth. I love this for me. In the end, I feel a strong connection to H, our family unit and our future. I see the pain in his eyes. Also true is that H doesn't turn to me for support and I know he continues to turn to EA.

I've rambled. Nothing like Grok's organized and measured posts. Rambling is how I journal and allow myself to just write without self-criticism. Hope you can follow and clearly, it's unclear where my confusion and conflicts resolve.

Knowing that a number of business interactions are forthcoming, I am looking to decide on how engaging or not I should be...

MamaG 2.0

[grok]

Hey MamaG,

on rambling

I've rambled. Nothing like Grok's organized and measured posts.

Well, not intentionally as such, though you ought to see the process of writing them down. I tend to think in concepts and connections...a train of thought from me ends up as disassociated concepts ... blurbs missing the 12 connections each that explain it. Then I have to go back and connect with things that would make sense to someone outside my head.

Still, I followed along just fine with your rambling. I think you end up with long form for the same reason I have. Important things are found in the "unknown unknowns or unknown knowns" expressed.

on listening

I can’t help but remember my husband saying that I don’t listen to him. I felt like I always listened. Perhaps this is how he feels and I never saw it.

I would do the slow roll, dig in, here. Man/Woman...we both send the message differently AND for different purposes...for the same feelings. The words and labels can confuse the issue.

I will illustrate a little with a classic Man mistake I've made in the past. Picture, I'm busy at my desk with a spreadsheet up on the main monitor. I have a tower defense game I'm playing on the secondary monitor as it only requires 10% of my attention. XW comes in to "talk." I say, "OK, go ahead and talk. I'm listening. You do have my attention, I'm just doing the other things in the background." And I am. 30% attention on the spreadsheet as it is mundane stuff. 10% on the tower defense game. 60% is given to what the XW is telling me about what went on during the day. I can answer her questions and repeat back just what she said. I give her my decision points where needed.

Did she FEEL listened to? I bet you can answer that question.

What was the underlying purpose of her talking to me? Why, how, and what was she looking for to feel listened to? I have the things I've learned in the last few years ... though I'd be interested in hearing your answer from the feminine perspective before giving mine.

I was operating in a typical male mode of communication. facts. decision trees. and so on. A typical outcome is something gets accomplished which makes a man feel good.

There certainly is a difference between hearing and listening and this is what I hear you point out. if you’re looking to call something else out, please clarify.

Yes, but several layers down from there...down in the differences between us.

Perhaps my son is sharing feelings in ways I’m not hearing.

More this. I suspect so. Or maybe doesn't know how to bridge that gap. He won't do so in female modes or for female reasons. Not unless he has been delving into relationship studies which address the Mars/Venus gap.

In the previously described video, the man later posted a follow up in which he described his W as wonderful and that she didn't mean anything by it. You can tell from the responses though...it touched a nerve with many men. He was sharing a deep feelings in a way she didn't hear at the time.

Hope you’re doing well.

Same and I'll give the DB stock answer "I'm doing surprisingly well!" It is true after all. And doesn't negate the "aftershocks" which continue in muted form.

g

[MamaG]

Hi G!

Well, not intentionally as such, though you ought to see the process of writing them down. I tend to think in concepts and connections...a train of thought from me ends up as disassociated concepts ... blurbs missing the 12 connections each that explain it. Then I have to go back and connect with things that would make sense to someone outside my head.

Much like we say about our MLCers, I tend to have fleeting thoughts (and sometimes emotions). If I don't brain dump or ramble, it gets lost in the next series of thoughts. I can attest to learning as I journal and from reading my own writing. This confirms your comment:

Important things are found in the "unknown unknowns or unknown knowns" expressed.

Perhaps our subconscious knows more than our conscious knows. I call it intuition.

On the listening front, I can relate to the multi-tasking style listening. And, if I couldn't distract, I would gloss over some of his topics. It must have gotten more obvious as there weren't kids sports to cover. Convos were often about which one of us was going with D vs S. When we had to leave. When dinner would be eaten. And, after the games, of course there was a play by play conversation. Empty nest changed that and left us with work convos. I don't want to listen to the same stuff. H didn't want to listen to the same stuff. Hence, you don't listen to me.

When I read your comments, I hear something more. Even beyond the glossed look, body language speaks volumes. I imagine he heard loud and clear that I wasn't hearing him. I wasn't understanding him. I wasn't meeting him where he wanted me to be in his story. I get that now.

Now, how to apply it to S. I've been mindful and had an ear for how convos go. Yesterday, I heard concern and a need for input. He wasn't just venting. He wanted my opinion. He didn't straight up ask but I did. Are you sharing to vent or for feedback. Bam, S wanted my take.

What was the underlying purpose of her talking to me? Why, how, and what was she looking for to feel listened to? I have the things I've learned in the last few years ... though I'd be interested in hearing your answer from the feminine perspective before giving mine.

She wanted your undivided attention. She wanted to be seen, heard and understood. She was looking for engagement, a reaction, something more than you giving her less than 100% attention. Yup. An unknown unknown is now a known unknown.

Same and I'll give the DB stock answer "I'm doing surprisingly well!" It is true after all. And doesn't negate the "aftershocks" which continue in muted form.

I need to be better at staying muted. With fewer opportunities to connect, I fail. Or perhaps, I cease the moments and go too far. Something to figure out.

MamaG 2.0