You know the drill...

[Dynamiq]

Interesting. And what do you think you are seeing?

I've been reading through another webpage, which has a large section on Control. Actually some of the detachment material on this forum comes from the same section. It's going to take me some time but related to control is 'idealism' 'the need to fix', that struck a chord with me. I'll post more when I've figured it all out. I'm not a quick learner and I have more to read through on that.

You sound quite full of yourself.

I'm ok with this. I know my W never liked it when I was indecisive. Being more confident and decisive is a 180 for me. I've seen on some threads where the LBS will analyse all decisions and get lots of advice (some of it conflicting) ahead of time. I'm not going to do that.

I'm trying to read and internalise all the advice here so I can hopefully DB without thinking too much or getting too analytical. I'm trying to get to where it is natural. That's why I'll post what I've done and why - so I can get a course correction or some feedback on where I'm being stupid.

And TBH - disrespectful to us.

Not my intention.

You always seem to have a reason to excuse your choices or behaviors.

So let me reason and excuse why I'm doing this - haha - I'm in a self analytical place at the moment. I'm trying to heal from an attachment that has caused me a great deal of pain. I'm trying to figure out where I have failed in my marriage. I am trying to figure out how I was blind to a lot of things going on in my own life. I'm trying to get to the childhood issues I have carried into my adult life and that have brought me to this moment. The best way I know how to get through this is to dig into the WHY of all these things. That way I might figure out if it's something I need/want to change and is there anything I can do about it.

I am giving as much space as I can within the constraints of a situation where we live together, eat together, manage a house/family together. All under the watchful eyes of 3 young and impressionable children.

This is not helpful if you indeed want to save your marriage... which I don't not quite sure you do.

I'm trying to let go of the attachment to this outcome. I know it's not in my control to save the marriage and I actually don't know if I want to save it. I can only do my part and then see where things end up.

Perhaps you just want things back to the way they were.

No, I'm a different person now and I don't like everything about how I was showing up in recent years.

Going back won't work. For W or for me.

I am wrestling with the idea that my expectations for what a marriage should be might not be realistic (back to the 'idealism' idea above) and I might need to recalibrate...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Dyn

You are receiving some top shelf feedback from folks here who have been through the wringer and have much hard-earned wisdom.

Now I am only looking control what I can control. But yes, figuring out what is OUTSIDE my control is another thing...

Control is a difficult thing. Well, actually letting go of trying to control what we do not, and cannot, is the difficult thing.

One only has direct control of three things: Their thoughts, actions, and reactions. Anything else is only varying degrees of influence.

I don't want this continued dead marriage, no effort, sad situation. It's affecting the kids.

What can you control, and therefore change for the better, in all of this? You.

Healing a marriage is going to time. And purposeful effort. Make changes for deep sincere reasons, for then those changes will have a much better chance at becoming permanent. By the way, it is going to take time for W to believe in your changes for she will think it just manipulation, trying to win her back.

I get that forcing her back isn't the way. But how to wake her up, get her unstuck? She can't be happy living like this.

You are correct, forcing her will not work.

How to wake her up, get her unstuck? You cannot. You don’t control her. However, you control you. You grow, become better. You give her time and space.

How you exert your control of you, will influence W and others. Be it significant or minimal, positive or negative, or even neutral, is out of your control. People do see others and take from them as they will. Being consistent helps.

She needs to come to her choices on her time. She has to walk her path, just as much as you need to walk your’s.

How to wake her up, get her unstuck? Divorce Busting will give you your best chance at this goal and at saving your marriage.

Yes, W is likely not happy living like she is. Is it because of you? Maybe a part of it. So fix you and what you can. The rest of her unhappiness is just that - her’s. You cannot fix what you didn’t break.

Time and space are your two biggest allies here. W needs both to get through what she is going through. And she is on her timeline, not your’s.

So some of the logistics of our sitch.

I gave lots of space from DB on.
maybe 10-15 R talks in 6 months (including those around BD and EA). I know we say no R talk but this doesn't seem like much.
No sex since before BD.
I have started some light touching as it felt natural the last few days.
Day to day we rarely text, we don't speak much except for logistics, kids are always there, she goes to D's room at D's bedtime. I try to ask about her day but mostly get short replies.
W has not returned to IC since Christmas.
W seems to think we will co-parent like this indefinitely.
Stuff gets done at home. We are both proactive enough to keep things ticking over.
There isn't much future planning going on. Not a great way to run a family...
I'm trying to match her energy, maybe leading/approaching slightly more but not easy when nothing's coming back.
I'm listening, making eye contact. Not much eye contact coming back.

W has got a bit more secretive on social media lately but she will leave her phone unlocked and leave the room. I tend not to snoop. Recently her and friends went for a night out. It was strange that I didn't see any of them posting pictures.

So I guess this seems like me obsessing over her still.

I see things clearly at times and then feel confused again. Maybe I'm grasping too much. Maybe confusion is ok. It just isn't comfortable for me. Is this too comfortable for her?

Time and space. I understand that to you 10-15 R-talks over 6 months sounds insignificant. To her, another “talk” every 12 days just keeps pushing her towards the door. You need to back off, way off.

Time for W is different than for you. You’ve stated she exhibits and has affirmed she is stressed, depressed, and confused. Folks lost in depression get stuck, mulling over stuff in their heads. They need to. Those R-talks pull her out of her needed mulling and somewhat restarts her clock again. Keep doing that and she will feel more and more resentment/blame towards you.

The board would also say to not initiate conversation however to engage and validate WHEN she does want to share.

Not initiating I understand if there is an active A but even in our sitch where I'm hoping to recover and just be myself and try to present some sort of normality for the kids?

Yes! Keep initiating conversation to a minimum. Let her bring up stuff as she wants to. Then only listen and validate her feelings when she shares them. You do not push your agenda, or dump your feelings out.

I know. Totally unfair. The LBS having to do the lion’s share. Here’s the thing. W’s emotions are cranked to eleven and she has no bandwidth for you or anyone else’s feelings.

This is for “serious” conversation, like R-talks. You can, and should, be kind and cordial. Pressure-free. You can invite her to go out with you and the kids to a family activity. You can ask her to pass the milk; how was diner; if she’d like to watch a show; etc. Kind, cordial, and pressure-free.

Part of my nice guy recovery is actually stating my feelings, needs, wants and not suppressing them. HOWEVER, the more I learn about Ws people pleasing tendencies, I realise I have to be careful that she isn't going along, suppressing her own needs/wants. I need to find better ways of communicating and listening. I don't want to slide back on expressing my own feelings but I should look to do it in a way that doesn't compromise W's healing from her own people pleasing.

I do need to keep in mind that It shouldn't matter whether you are DBing or MLCing. The same rules should apply to both spouses.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by the rules should be applied to both.

The LBS usually is working on self improvements. Having received a jolting life-altering wake-up call. And will therefore heal and grow before their spouse.

The WW, WAS, MLCer, etc is on their path. Their improvements are on a different timeline. Some have come to things/realizations before dropping the bomb, and others will discover/heal far from now. It’s beyond the LBS’ control.

…I should look to do it in a way that doesn't compromise W's healing from her own people pleasing.

Yes, stating your feelings, needs, and wants is important. Start small, with friends and family. Thus not overloading W and allowing her time and space.

It’s important not to walk on eggshells around W, while being genuine and pressure-free.

Focus on you and the kids. GAL. Give time and space. Validate and listen when W offers.

Hope you have a great day.

D

[Dynamiq]

"I’m not quite sure what you mean by the rules should be applied to both."

This was in response to something Valeska said about me taking a trip at the same time as W. I need to let her do what she's going to do.

"The LBS usually is working on self improvements. Having received a jolting life-altering wake-up call. And will therefore heal and grow before their spouse"

True. And this is part of where my impatience has come from. I recognised this need for change quite early, I took the blame all on myself, made lots of changes and then got impatient. But I forgot the main thing. Detachment. The more I detach, the more I see it is the key. I'm not there yet. And I see I have more of a journey to go on. And I need time for that.

[Rockon]

Dynamo,
I see a lot of myself in your story and can relate to so much.
Detach detach detach. It took me a while that’s for sure.
And now somewhat full circle maybe, I have been able to see some things in new light after the dust has settled I suppose.
I can be more objective and reflective about my own faults and weaknesses while no longer accepting more blame than I should.
When someone (her) shows you who they are, believe them. Doesn’t mean this is who they always will be. People change.
But this right now is where things really lie..

[Dynamiq]

Not much to report from limbo land. I'm feeling peaceful. Pulling back. Leaning in to Detachment and letting go. W is busy trying to do practical things for me. I sense she feels that distance growing.

I want to tell her that I don't need or want a maid, but if that's all she's comfortable with giving at the moment then OK. I'm just making sure I'm pulling my weight in that area so she doesn't need to get resentful.

GALing has mostly been fitness related the last while. I have some creative projects I want to get into but that might have to wait now my dad has an illness.

Time and space. I understand that to you 10-15 R-talks over 6 months sounds insignificant. To her, another “talk” every 12 days just keeps pushing her towards the door. You need to back off, way off

If I take 10 off around BD1 and BD2 then it's 5 talks in 5 months and that actually still sounds high when I put it that way. The thing I wasn't really getting was that the space isn't really for the WW even though they might want it, it's the LBS who NEEDS the space. We don't know what's happened, our world is turned upside down and we're in shock. The WS has had all the time in the world to detach and come to terms with things. There is nothing wrong with the LBS taking space to do the same. I would have benefitted from taking this more seriously.

I remember looking at the stages the LBS goes through and thinking that when I get to Acceptance that it would be peaceful but actually there is still quite a bit of pain in acceptance. Acceptance doesn't bring any sort of resolution, just the realisation that this is where we are, wife is not who I though she was. Our relationship wasn't what I thought it was. The future isn't what I thought it was.

But I'm also realising that this time really is a gift. A chance to write my own story. At some point i realised this would lead to a life transition of my own and I'm sure of that now, but I still don't know what that outcome will be. I want to take some time and figure this out...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Dyn

I’m sorry to hear your Dad is having some health issues. I hope he recovers quickly.

You are correct, LBS needs space and time as well. By bomb drop, the leaving spouse has usually planned their exit for a while, and are rather detached by that point. The LBS plays catch up for the first bit. Later, if some sort of reconnection/reconciliation is fated or occurs, the tables turn, and it is the LBS who is further along and the returning spouse is the one running to catch up. Such seems to be the emotional/healing path.

I remember looking at the stages the LBS goes through and thinking that when I get to Acceptance that it would be peaceful but actually there is still quite a bit of pain in acceptance.

Yes acceptance does not mean pain-free. There are still times of hurt and sadness, although the magnitude and frequency of such are much diminished.

Acceptance doesn't bring any sort of resolution, just the realization that this is where we are, wife is not who I thought she was. Our relationship wasn't what I thought it was. The future isn't what I thought it was.

To me, this sounds like the end of bargaining.

Bargaining is when one tries all manner of things in an attempt to keep the old normal alive. Once one has exhausted all their efforts, the profound realization that the old normal is dead starts to sink in. This heralds the next stage - depression, when one works through that death and their feelings around and about it (regrets, deep sadness, etc.).

I found acceptance has less thinking and realizations. (Sounds weird, doesn’t it.) Acceptance is basically emotional understanding. And the journey to emotional understanding is quite a path.

It starts with intellectual understanding (ex: wasn’t what I thought it was) as one requires a certain amount of understanding before they can/will let go. This letting go/detaching allows and furthers the emotional healing and processing. Intellectual understanding and emotional intelligence both grow and go forward hand in hand towards acceptance.

The stage of depression is a huge part of gaining acceptance/emotional understanding. The lion’s share of working through depression is most definitely upon our subconscious self. The conscious self is the realm of intellect, logic, reason, planning, and such. The subconscious is the realm of emotions, beliefs, faith; all that which is beyond one’s reason. The very realm and heart of grief.

Of our four paths/roads - physical, intellectual, emotional , and spiritual - only the first two (physical and intellectual) one can directly control. Actions, reactions, and thoughts. Yet, through those, one influence all their paths, in which their values and convictions and feelings yet in turn further influence all paths. That is where peace lives, within that feedback, within one’s subconscious self.

When one gets all their four “cars” moving along at the same speed and all together on the paths, peace and contentment is found. It’s us learning to listen and speak with our deep self.

Grief is a journey. And it will be complete on its timeline, and not one second earlier. We do (control) what we can. Focus on self, go to work, get out of bed, GAL, and so on; leaving and allowing our subconscious to churn away.

Yep, time is a gift. I think embracing DBing inevitably brings a life transition. You are wise to take time and not rush it.

Hope you have a great day.

D

[Dynamiq]

So another few weeks pass in limbo land...

I'm working a lot, both at my own job and with my dad's business while he recovers so time, space is easy to achieve at the moment. W is picking up some more of the slack at home and with the kids.

It feels like there is a canyon between us at the moment, even if we're just a few inches apart. Some surface level conversations with W but kids are always there interrupting and being kids...

In the car, W will just look out the window or at her phone. At home she'll be in another room or in bed. We're only together with the kids present.

It hurts seeing her act 'normally' with other people and even doing things for my family while I get the cold shoulder. Like I don't exist or like I'm just a useful but uninteresting inanimate object. A walking bank account.

Continuing to detach, accept and learn about myself. The pain is less but still intense when it comes. I cried for the first time in all this... the first time since my daughter was born.

I learned that my idea of what love actually is was always a bit skewed. Service, providing, giving - I thought this was the essence of love - what you can give to and do for others. This is why I have struggled with feeling good enough, why I gave up some parts of myself that I shouldn't have, and I think this has played into our R problems. A huge part I was missing was that I am enough - I don't need to give so much - but just being there, being and present and validating others is huge.

I actually already instinctively knew this in my R with my kids but somehow not in my M. Why?

Continuing to GAL but less time for it at the moment - fitness, home projects, time with kids.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Dyn

I learned that my idea of what love actually is was always a bit skewed. Service, providing, giving - I thought this was the essence of love - what you can give to and do for others. This is why I have struggled with feeling good enough, why I gave up some parts of myself that I shouldn't have, and I think this has played into our R problems. A huge part I was missing was that I am enough - I don't need to give so much - but just being there, being and present and validating others is huge.

I actually already instinctively knew this in my R with my kids but somehow not in my M. Why?

We love our kids pretty much unconditionally. Our partner love is/becomes more transactional.

An interesting read is the Five Love Languages. “what you can give to and do for others” is your encapsulation of what love is and how it is expressed. There are 5 distinct languages/avenues of expressing and receiving that message. Words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, physical touch, and gifts (receiving/giving).

Understanding oneself and their partner’s LL illustrates love’s previous miscommunications and highlights how to better express going forward. Example, you may place the most importance on receiving gifts, while your partner place most importance on quality time. So, no matter how many gifts you give, what they are truly desiring is to spend time, quality time, together. Even though, to you, you believe you are showing your deep love. The problem is, it’s not being heard as well as it could be.

It’s about how we receive love and express love. (Those may not be the same.) And how our partner does. That makes four different avenues overall. The key, communication. Talking, finding out about each other’s LL; and filling their tank their way. And of course, that being reciprocated.

Glad to hear Dad’s on the mend. Have a great Sunday.

D