Still detaching and embracing my new normal

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Glad to hear you got some business stuff cleared up. Nice to see the cars’ ownerships and insurances all sorted out. As well as getting his phone bill sent directly to him; not your problem anymore.

Yes, they do wear and not wear their wedding band/rings as their mood dictates. Of course, their meaning behind it flitting as their feelings ping-pong about. You wisely know not to read into such. H wore his band most likely with the intent of some kind of attempt to manipulate the situation.

Myself, I like my old wedding ring (faceted gold with eleven diamonds). I now wear it on my right hand pinky like any other ring. I also wear a leaf-patterned engraved gold ring from my deceased Dad on my right hand ring finger. Left hand ring finger is cat’s eye ring inherited from Grandpa some twenty years ago. Bling!

That’s only when going out. Everyday wear is no rings. I’m still working/remodelling, and rings increase the risk of electrical contact and mechanical entanglement. Work boots, baseball cap, and pencil on my right ear; that’s my day to day “jewelry”. lol

Hope you have a great Sunday.

D

[Valeska19]

Just checking in on your MG. How are the boundaries coming along?

[MamaG]

Thanks for checking in Valeska19. Lots has happened. I knew this would be the case - lots of stuff in the first half of the year. Our lives are tethered. I predict you'll tell me that I'm engaging too much.

I find myself sitting silently often. Pondering. Considering the fork in the road. I've been growing and healing. Glasses are clear, yet can still get rosy. Leaving behind what should've been is hard. Staying in the marriage isn't always appealing. As suspected, knowing what I didn't want to believe broke me. Feeling every ache has made for tough weeks.

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

I was detached until our interactions increased. Seeing H is the hardest thing I do. I show up kind, caring, compassionate, helpful, secure, confident, detached. And then an immediate emotional crash as we part. My feelings toward him are different.

We've interacted twice since my last update.

H offered to come by last Saturday to drop off money for business stuff. On Sat, he text to say he'd come Sunday. (This I've learned to expect - Sat quickly becomes Sun.) I informed him that I'd be around in the morning but had plans in the afternoon. No further texting.

Early Sunday morning plans had me out. As I headed home at 10, I saw him pulling into a little shop around the corner from my house - likely coffee. Three hours later, he texted saying that the money was in the mailbox. H drove around for 3 hours. I acknowledged his text a couple days later with a combined message about a loan taken in his name fraudulently. No response from him. I informed him and that's the extent of my responsibility. His problem to manage.

On Friday, I asked if he could meet up to sign the return the following day. "I have some things to do but could try to fit it in." He said he'd come to the house to review it together before going to accountants. And I take a deep breath....

H pulls into the garage, walks up the stairs, pets the dogs and into the kitchen with his hands in his pockets. I can tell he feels naked without his band. My thoughts: worry not, both of us have removed the symbol of our love. Yup, that hurt. I expected it from him because he seems to follow my lead and always has. I took mine off last weekend, which means he now can.

H grabs a mug to enjoy some coffee. Immediately, I tell him I want to sell the house and he's taken back bc we're supposed to talk about taxes. I apologized and we talked taxes, but kept shifting between taxes and house. I threw out many comments that he calmly responded to but was disappointed as he doesn't want to sell the house we built from the ground up.

M: Do you want to live here?
H: Yes, but I can't afford to.
M: What makes you think that I can?
H: You make more and mine is more expensive.
M: How do you know what it costs to run this house?
H: I don't.

M:We have a lot of family things and business items to resolve over the next couple months. After that, we need to clear out this house and make some decisions. This isn't sustainable.
H: What's there to clear out?
M: A lot. We have a lot of stuff. And for starters, you can grab all your boxes that I packed nearly a year ago. I'm not your storage unit.
H nods and sinks.

Throughout the 2 hours, I shared many of my thoughts - with a calm voice and with directness. Emotionless, yet impactful. Oddly, he took it all. No anger. No retaliation. No attempts to walk out the door. Just what appeared to be sadness on his end.

He noticed the house had been stripped of all things related to him. No pictures, no memorabilia that resembles him. He felt it.

We sat down to review the taxes. Yup, we owe. Shocker. Immediately, he offers to pay half.

Noted: this is the second weekend in a row that he's offering to take responsibility. No argument. No complaints about lacking funds. I didn't even have to hold him accountable. I like this.

And he begins to share about his life. Asks me some questions. And I ask, are you happy?

H: yeah (with uncertainty). Well...happier.
M: What? (in total confused tone) You aren't happy?
H: With teary eyes he looks away.
M: What's going on? Do you know where happy comes from?
H: Yes, from within as he points to his heart.
M: Then how can you not be happy?
H: Still fighting tears, he shrugs his shoulders and says that some days he just is not happy.
M: Talk to me. What's going on inside you?
H: Can I have a tissue?
M: I offer him a hug which he accepts quickly and pulls me in tightly.

M: Are you talking with anyone? Is anyone helping you? Anyone in the family helping you?
H: No.
M: Your family calls me all the time. They tell me they're worried about you. (Not sure how he took that.)
H: H shrugs his shoulders with no words.
M: Do you talk with God?
H: No. Well, some days I do.
M: You should consider talking to God daily.
H: H nods but I can tell it's his people-pleasing skills coming throug0h.

I then pulled away and told him, our marriage is broken. Our marriage is dead. You've done many things that warrant me hating you. Yet, I don't. I choose to love you because love is a choice. If you want help, what can I help with? In short, H wants to come to the house next weekend to talk. I suspect H won't talk, but if he does, I'll listen. It's been 6 months since he had some sort of awakening.

After reviewing the taxes, I told him, "While you didn't ask, I'm happy. I'm thriving. Life is great. I'd like to think that you would be happy by now." H got choked up. After some silence, I carried on. "Clearly, I took a different healing path. Would you be willing to try my approach?" He shrugged again and said, "Maybe".

Then without using MLC words, I let him know that I see him and know that he doesn't want to talk about anything related to emotions. Talking emotions makes him uncomfortable. He agreed quickly. I then pointed out a time in our conversation where he changed the subject. He said he noticed that he does that. I suggested that he let himself out from inside.

We'll see if he shows up on Saturday.

Interestingly, the first 20 minutes, he mentioned how hot the house was. He was perspiring. Took off his shirt and his inner shirt was soaked. Sounds to me like some emotions may have been running wild on his side and his body was paying for it.

When I look back on Saturday, I demonstrated extreme strength and little emotion. I was a different person.

As for the kids, no word from dad since Pi day.

Perhaps mom is withdrawing and dad is withdrawing as we travel this separate journey.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

(((Hugs)))

One walks through depression to find acceptance.

Perfectly normal.

You’re doing fine.

Remain strong,

D

[Valeska19]

Thanks for checking in Valeska19. Lots has happened. I knew this would be the case - lots of stuff in the first half of the year. Our lives are tethered. I predict you'll tell me that I'm engaging too much.

Perhaps. I have thoughts - they may surprise you.

I find myself sitting silently often. Pondering. Considering the fork in the road. I've been growing and healing. Glasses are clear, yet can still get rosy. Leaving behind what should've been is hard. Staying in the marriage isn't always appealing. As suspected, knowing what I didn't want to believe broke me. Feeling every ache has made for tough weeks.

I feel myself withdrawing from everyone. I sit in silence a lot. Deep thoughts. Little action. I go to work. I see family. I got out. Still GALing but find myself crumbling more in the quiet return to home. Perhaps, a set back. It's not so much fear as it is sadness, emptiness, disbelief, betrayal, disgust, anger, confusion, pain. Heartbroken. Acceptance. When I'm out, I show up with a mask. I don't want to talk about it.

I agree with DNJ here. You are doing fine. Acceptance will eventually bring peace... but it the meantime - it's a complete b!tch. It's full of pain and sorrow, anger. Even the days when you beg for it not to be the case and other times where you wished you never loved H at all. It's really really hard. AND - I'm going to encourage you to reach out more for support. This is not something you should go through alone. It can help you be the woman you want to be in all this.

I was detached until our interactions increased. Seeing H is the hardest thing I do. I show up kind, caring, compassionate, helpful, secure, confident, detached. And then an immediate emotional crash as we part. My feelings toward him are different.

We've interacted twice since my last update.

Detachment is hard and a process...

.H pulls into the garage, walks up the stairs, pets the dogs and into the kitchen with his hands in his pockets. I can tell he feels naked without his band. My thoughts: worry not, both of us have removed the symbol of our love. Yup, that hurt. I expected it from him because he seems to follow my lead and always has. I took mine off last weekend, which means he now can.

This is a little-bit of mind reading on your part. You don't know how he feels.

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

First - it creates a lose/lose situation for you in it's current frame. When you tell him you want him to stay - he doesn't do the work. When you accept his choices - he uses it as confirmation to leave and shift it onto "your actions and your fault".

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

You didn't cause it.
You can't control it
You can't cure it.

So what do you do? You create a new and more functional dynamic. One that got lost over the years due to frustration, fear, survival, trauma, etc. etc. You hand the responsibility of your H back to him. That is in no way meaning you put your ring back on or don't move forward with accepting his decision. But below are some specific ways you could hand it back to him.

And he begins to share about his life. Asks me some questions. And I ask, are you happy?

H: yeah (with uncertainty). Well...happier.
M: What? (in total confused tone) You aren't happy?
H: With teary eyes he looks away.
M: What's going on? Do you know where happy comes from?
H: Yes, from within as he points to his heart.
M: Then how can you not be happy?
H: Still fighting tears, he shrugs his shoulders and says that some days he just is not happy.
M: Talk to me. What's going on inside you?
H: Can I have a tissue?
M: I offer him a hug which he accepts quickly and pulls me in tightly.

M: Are you talking with anyone? Is anyone helping you? Anyone in the family helping you?
H: No.
M: Your family calls me all the time. They tell me they're worried about you. (Not sure how he took that.)
H: H shrugs his shoulders with no words.
M: Do you talk with God?
H: No. Well, some days I do.
M: You should consider talking to God daily.
H: H nods but I can tell it's his people-pleasing skills coming throug0h.

I see the pain in both parties here. I want to acknowledge how hard it is to be sad and watch someone you love be sad too.

AND I'm going to remind you that this is not your work. Tell me I'm wrong when I say - you have had this conversation a million times before. Reminded him of his worth, what he means to you. How to help. Leading him on what you he can do. It has not lead to a lasting connection between you two.

Validate without fixing.

Stop saving him from himself.
Stop giving him suggestions to make it better.
Stop being that release value where he can express emotions without being the same for you in return.

Whatever fears you have around changing this behavior. It's time to confront.

He knows you love him. I promise he does. He's just not ready... and you have to be willing to allow him to experience ALL of his choices. Not because it will save your marriage (because it may very well not).. but because it is the LOVING thing for him.

And if he for some weird reason he doesn't know you love him - well you telling him won't change that either. His shame outweighs your voice of reason.

I then pulled away and told him, our marriage is broken. Our marriage is dead. You've done many things that warrant me hating you. Yet, I don't. I choose to love you because love is a choice. If you want help, what can I help with? In short, H wants to come to the house next weekend to talk. I suspect H won't talk, but if he does, I'll listen. It's been 6 months since he had some sort of awakening.

After reviewing the taxes, I told him, "While you didn't ask, I'm happy. I'm thriving. Life is great. I'd like to think that you would be happy by now." H got choked up. After some silence, I carried on. "Clearly, I took a different healing path. Would you be willing to try my approach?" He shrugged again and said, "Maybe".

No need to tell him how great or not great you are doing. Why? Because it doesn't move the needle. At this point - it just becomes fuel for his fire to stay confused or broken. Don't give it to him.

If you need to say anything due to being extremely emotional you can fall back on "I'm learning to accept your decisions about us. Some days are harder than others". That's your truth. And that's the reality of the situation. And that keeps the ball where it should be... in his court.

I do believe you setting up another conversation is you still in your old pattern. And yet sometimes I understand we need to keep speaking for our own sake. To help get us facing in the direction we need to go.

It's EXTREMELY hard work to allow our spouse to not choose us. That's what the begging, pleading, nagging, crying, helping, fixing is... a cry out for them to see us.. to choose us.

They may never do that in the end... but they certainly can't do it in the storm.

I recently re-read the lighthouse story because I find strength it in when I am struggling to fix an uncontrollable situation. The lighthouse doesn't go running into the storm. The lighthouse doesn't tell the ship how to steer. It doesn't dim it's lights or change it's lighting pattern to try and catch their attention (aka the negative and positive tactics we do to get our partner to see us). It's just there. Giving the captain the space to see if he wants to come home. And yet also accepting he can crash into the rocks should he choose.

A lighthouse doesn't have feelings but it's the same concept for us. Look deep within and break all of your previous patterns with your H. The saving, the fixing, being his release value from emotional pressure. Let him sit in all of his shame and negative thoughts. It's the only way he can make the decision to save himself... which when it comes to loving another... that's what we want for them right?

Stand firm that you love him but will neither do the work for him nor step in his way from what he currently chooses. And live that in every interaction you have with him.

[MamaG]

I'm still learning to sit back and allow him to experience his own consequences. I want to be able to see him without feeling a desire to fix him. Let him wrestle with his own story. Filling the emotional moments with an offered hug and rescue is my old pattern.

If you need to say anything due to being extremely emotional you can fall back on "I'm learning to accept your decisions about us. Some days are harder than others". That's your truth. And that's the reality of the situation. And that keeps the ball where it should be... in his court.

Using the offered script feels like a better option and I'll try remembering it in the moment. I want this only because I'm told this will allow him to grow. As for who I am as a person and want to be, I'm not sure this is it.

Watching someone hurt from afar and not help isn't in my DNA. Is that really more attractive in a human?. And becoming that person to save or lose the marriage is not how I look at it. I would offer help to a stranger in tears never mind the man I share 2 children with.

I've learned to not chase him. This I love to have gained. I don't call. I don't text. I don't reach out to H. Unless there is a business need. H feels that void. H doesn't have me part-time never mind full-time. I won't be a back-burner choice. I know my worth and am disappointed that he lost sight of it. Growing old together was his dream. Said often. To many. With pride.

I don't take any interest in the OW; she gets no air. Sometimes this part surprises me and I ask myself if I'm suppressing those thoughts or if I just really don't care to think about her. It hurts A LOT to know that he is capable of turning to another person. This I feel daily and sometimes hourly. This is where I hold him accountable and responsible for decisions he made. And likely continues to make. This is where my pain lies. I was loyal. I sacrificed my life to take care of our family. I was the motor and lost myself. And, the reward - betrayal. Wrapping my head around this being an option. An option the H I believed him chose. I hope to heal someday. This weight is heavy.

Seeing through this month presents our D's bday (dinner), Easter, our anniversary, his mom's death anniversary. These events, too, weigh heavy on my heart. Oh, and May, comes with more of these types of events.

So, I look forward to June when D moves back home. I need to be through this heavy emotional window and collect myself by then. She doesn't see this side of me. She may suspect but she doesn't need to see it. And, I know that'll bring on challenges of their own. (I remember moving back home after being away at school for 4 years!)

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

Until I journaled it, the concept of 'H follows my lead' hadn't been a thought. And then you not only caught it, but highlighted it. Is this typical? Bc they've lost themselves and have just lived someone else's life, dreams, goals?

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

V, I trust you that there isn't anything I can do. But, can I ask you to elaborate more on your comment? As I said, it's unfathomable to me.

So what do you do? You create a new and more functional dynamic. One that got lost over the years due to frustration, fear, survival, trauma, etc. etc. You hand the responsibility of your H back to him. That is in no way meaning you put your ring back on or don't move forward with accepting his decision. But below are some specific ways you could hand it back to him.

Ring isn't on.

Whatever fears you have around changing this behavior. It's time to confront.

Wish I knew.

No need to tell him how great or not great you are doing. Why? Because it doesn't move the needle. At this point - it just becomes fuel for his fire to stay confused or broken. Don't give it to him.

I've asked myself why I said that. I think I wanted to rub his face in what he lost; fuel his fire. Not to help him stay confused/broken. Not to get him back. Not to move a needle. Perhaps as an softer alternative to what I'd really like to say to him. I'm struggling to like H. I wish I could stop loving him. Saving my marriage may or may not be possible.

I am trying to heal from the betrayal. I put on a front for my kids and when asked how to address H, I tell them to do what their heart wants to do. And, I remind them that H is there father and loves them very much.

If you're wondering, H didn't text nor stop by yesterday. I didn't expect him to based on the past. H may or may not pay for 1/2 the taxes he offered to drop off. I'd rather pay his share than to reach out to the shell I saw last weekend.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

Watching someone hurt from afar and not help isn't in my DNA. Is that really more attractive in a human?. And becoming that person to save or lose the marriage is not how I look at it. I would offer help to a stranger in tears never mind the man I share 2 children with.

It’s more the forest from the trees. Pull your perspective back. Make it wider. With H is it helping or enabling him?

Big picture help for H requires him feeling his consequences and him growing up from them. Big picturing helping is allowing him to do so.

This harkens way back to not manipulating his journey. When one has a hand in something they take it on. You really don’t want to take on the responsible for his life choices/outcomes. H will, and is, continuing to make poor choices. You see it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

H is being driven by emotions. He is in crisis, and cannot escape it until he walks his path.

Letting him feel his choices is not done out of malice or vengeance. It’s actually compassion, a kindness, it’s done out of love. You are not actively seeking out things to do to make H’s life difficult. You are simply allowing him his right to choose.

H knows you love him, want him back, want your family back and intact. You’ve told him. Yet, he chooses differently.

Let go.

Give him to God.

Let the man upstairs work on H.

H may or may not pay for 1/2 the taxes he offered to drop off. I'd rather pay his share than to reach out to the shell I saw last weekend.

Hold H accountable. Let him feel his choices. Not enable his teenage no responsibilities lifestyle.

How? Not by your hand. Pay your portion and let the IRS contact H for his. You might want to speak to your L or a financial advisor. Document what you paid and what H owes. If possible. Not sure of your locale’s laws.

I've asked myself why I said that. I think I wanted to rub his face in what he lost; fuel his fire. Not to help him stay confused/broken. Not to get him back. Not to move a needle. Perhaps as a softer alternative to what I'd really like to say to him.

Telling H made it real. Speaking it out loud made it real. You told him and told yourself.

Letting go of bargaining is weird. You’re letting go of the “old” and embracing the “new”. Thus, entry to depression and towards acceptance.

I'm struggling to like H. I wish I could stop loving him. Saving my marriage may or may not be possible.

You can love H and not like him. Or maybe more accurately, not like his behaviours.

I am trying to heal from the betrayal.

(((Hugs)))

Betrayal is the worst thing a person can do to another person.

Betrayal’s wounds are deep and heal very slowly. The pain from such actions from one whom we loved is indescribable.

It’s difficult, and IMHO important, to not harden over. Keep your heart soft and squishy.


I know it hurts. Do take heart, you are doing very well. Although it likely doesn’t feel it you are making some major steps here.

D

[MamaG]

Thanks DnJ for stopping by. Appreciate your support.

While you were writing to me, I was reading some other threads and find myself in a state of understanding H again. Cycles are mysterious. Our mind can be so tricked. Fleeting.

I have been focused on healing my own pain and confronting it so much that I've lost sight of H and what he may be going through. I've focused on myself which is the guidance. And then...I log a journal entry to my thread. Thoughts on paper make for reflection. I followed my entry with a couple readings within this forum. And just like that I cycle back to a soft spot for H. Unconditional love is wild and perplexing.

From the original first posting:

I thought it would be nice to start a thread on exactly what my thoughts are on why the spouse tends to run away during their crisis. I have done a lot of reading and listening to my friend about his thoughts and feelings during his crisis. So here goes.

Generally the man/woman in crisis has had a terrible childhood. Their childhoods consisted of parents that fought, drank, did drugs, physically and mentally abused their children, emotionally distanced themselves from their children, but most of all abandoned their children. The more I read about the various "learned" personality traits, the more I'm convinced that as children they were mentally abused to the point of not believing in themselves at all. They felt dirty, unwanted, stupid, worthless, their self esteem was shot to hell. The parents had these children, but really didn't love them unconditionally. Most of the "crisis" children have ADHD, ADD, PA, BPD, NP traits. They suffer from bouts of depression, are very good at lying, picking fights, defensive, and tend to self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, sex and spending. As I've listened to my friend, I've come to realize that even though "crisis" children appear normal on the outside, they have a constant internal war going on inside of themselves. They have been damaged beyond repair at that young age and it will take many years for them to even feel safe w/another person, if then. They feel very threatened by anyone that comes near them emotionally and physically. They can't handle it because they fear that this person will hurt them or take away whatever it is that they hold near and dear in their lives. As the "crisis" child grows up, he/she tends to be a loner, stays to him/herself and doesn't trust anyone to enter their safety zone. They tend to not show their emotions except in bouts of anger and are very guarded about their thoughts and feelings. They tend to distance themselves from others. I call this the dance, because when a person gets close to the "crisis" individual, he/she will distance enough to not feel threatened. You the spouse will never know the real person that lives within the "crisis" person until the two personalities are merged into one. The person you know is actually the shell of a person and he/she is very good at masking what he/she is really thinking at all times. However, during the major growing times, i.e., 20's, 30, and 40's (mid-life especially), the "crisis" person has another problem. It's at this time that the "crisis" child is starting to raise its ugly head, becomes stronger and wants to voice it's opinions on how that person was mistreated as a child. It's at this time, that the splintering/splitting occurs. This is where the crisis child is doing internal battle with the crisis adult. The battle is a 24/7 emotional roller coaster for the adult. The pain, hurt and anger are there 24/7 w/o any relief. I've sat and listened to my friend speak of many things that happened in his childhood and to hear the hurt and anguish in his voice makes me want to cry for him. It is at this time when the emotional pain becomes so great that the adult can't handle any other stress in his/her life. This person doesn't trust the spouse enough to speak about the turmoil inside. They feel that the spouse will not accept them for who they are right at this moment. Why? Because that person has now entered mlc and will be there for a while. That person knows that something is terribly wrong and knows that he/she must leave in order to heal those long ago hurts. If you recall, as children, when we were scared or punished, we all wanted to run away. Remember those times? Well, this is what is happening to your mlcer. They are very scared and very hurt and they only thing that they know how to do is run, as he "crisis" child comes on the scene. The best thing that this person can do for himself/herself is to go see their parents, sit down and actually talk to their parents about how they perceived their childhood and tell the parents just how hurt and angry they are for how they were mistreated. If they don't do this, it will take longer for them to heal.

As spouses and friends of the mlcers, we must always keep in mind that they are in a very fragile state when the "crisis" child gains control. They are so confused and hurt. The anger is not at you, but at what life has dished out to them. It's the hurt coming out and it's really a delayed reaction to how they were mistreated as children. We have to remember to treat them kindly and with compassion during this time. Why? Because this could have happened to you. During the "crisis" child stage, you will be viewed as the mother/father authority figure, therefore you are the one that gets the brunt of what is happening. They are afraid to speak to their parents for fear of what the parents will do to them. Who better than us to get the emotional flack? They know we love them, they just don't know how to deal with the emotional pain that goes so very deep. Folks, I've had many long conversations w/my friend and I can tell you, he is suffering terribly from his "crisis" childhood. Until he resolves his issues and speaks to his father, he will continue to run and never heal.

I hope that this will help some of you better understand what is happening. I'd welcome all of your comments. As time goes by, I'll post more of my thoughts and observations. Mlc is not a pretty sight by any means, especially if the mlcer is willing to sit down and speak to you about how he/she is feeling. That's why it is so very important to be a friend during the crisis. You will learn so much more about what is going on. Keep the expectations to zero and I feel very strongly that your spouse's "crisis" child will speak to you. Listen carefully, sift through the garbage coming out of their mouths and the answers are all there. It's not about you, but about them and how they were mistreated as children.

Thread link: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484259

As I read this (again), I'm reminded of a moment in my convo with H last weekend that I hadn't given any thought to. And, now find it interesting and it serves as a reminder of what crisis is. Your response to me supports the notion that these are deep wounds from childhood. A journey he must take on his own.

Anyway...

Last weekend, when we were on the topic of his family calling me all the time....and that he doesn't talk to his family, I specifically asked if he has talked with his dad. Not sure what prompted me to dig here. H responded with a simple word, 'no' but his body language shifted. H appeared agitated and perplexed that he would talk to his dad. At the time, it caught my attention enough that I probed a bit more on dad's relationship before letting it go.

M: Did you have a falling out?
H: No
M: Are you upset with dad? Did he do something?
H: No
M: Is dad upset with you?
H: No
M: Ok

Topic shifted. I gave it little to no additional thought.

Now I sit here and connect a couple dots. Especially after reading through the above previously posted entry. Reminders are helpful.

I remember that after H's mom died, I would ask H if he had talked with dad. He would always say 'no'. H didn't seem to have an interest in staying connected with dad. I remember mentioning how lonely dad must be without his mom. FB posts from H's dad reinforced his sadness/loneliness. H wouldn't say much, in true avoidant style. At the time, I didn't understand but also didn't make an effort to understand or probe. I would merely and periodically raise the idea of checking on dad. Sometimes he'd say that he'd call him during the day. Later, I'd ask if he did and he hadn't, "but I'll call him tomorrow. I had a busy day today." Throughout the 4 years or so that I'd periodically raise the topic, he may have called dad a couple of times (honestly now wonder if he really did call him at all) and he wouldn't have much to report. "Dad is fine." They interacted on holidays and all seemed normal. Again, hindsight, I realize that he didn't see dad for father's day since mom's passing. We would visit my dad and we would celebrate H. No call nor visit to his own dad on Father's day. Odd to me. H's dad got a text for father's day. hmmmm At the time, H would say that he wasn't driving a couple hours to see dad. OK, I'd say. Ultimately his choice. Different than how I treat my dad, but that's my choice. H always came along for the ride to see my dad.

Also interesting....After H's mom died, H'd dad asked us for permission to date a woman within a year or so of mom's passing. This may not have sat well with H, but in hindsight H didn't seem to have much care for dad even before that. I remember being across the table and comforting his dad and my words, "Do what makes you happy. You don't need my permission." On the way home I told H that I felt for his dad. "He's so lonely. He's hurting and needs a companion." Don't remember that H responded to any of that. Today, this makes me pause. What in the world may dad have done through the years? I shrug my shoulders and move onto my day...

The above entry suggests that if H would talk it out with dad, he may resolve internal struggles. Sadly, H's dad is weak and fighting a number of illnesses. H's time may elapse without the convo happening. Ouch

I know that loving him more hasn't been the answer. Trying harder to get him to open up hasn't rendered trust in me. So, I step back. When he's ready to receive my love, I hope to be here to give it to him. I guess I still have hope in the someday.

It’s more the forest from the trees. Pull your perspective back. Make it wider. With H is it helping or enabling him?

Big picture help for H requires him feeling his consequences and him growing up from them. Big picturing helping is allowing him to do so.

This harkens way back to not manipulating his journey. When one has a hand in something they take it on. You really don’t want to take on the responsible for his life choices/outcomes. H will, and is, continuing to make poor choices. You see it.

Thanks for the reminder. I've lost so much focus of H that his journey has been lost on me.

H knows you love him, want him back, want your family back and intact. You’ve told him. Yet, he chooses differently.

H knows I love him - that is true. Want him back? Want family back and intact? Not so sure. I haven't shared this with him in well over a year. And last weekend's "Our marriage is dead" comment may have actually told him otherwise. I'm open to your challenge here and am curious if you can? Could H actually believe that I want him back?

Telling H made it real. Speaking it out loud made it real. You told him and told yourself.

Letting go of bargaining is weird. You’re letting go of the “old” and embracing the “new”. Thus, entry to depression and towards acceptance.

DnJ, I'm sorry you had to heal from betrayal to become the wise man you offer me today. Hugs

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

H knows I love him - that is true. Want him back? Want family back and intact? Not so sure. I haven't shared this with him in well over a year. And last weekend's "Our marriage is dead" comment may have actually told him otherwise. I'm open to your challenge here and am curious if you can? Could H actually believe that I want him back?

I think the way you stated your question is accurate and highlights H’s turmoil.

You’ve told H you love him. Treated him kindly. And so on. H knows this.

Does he feel it?

Does he believe it?

Knowing something is different than believing it.

Consider the four paths/cars: physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. H’s cars are all over the place. And for most times his emotions are the primary focus. Depression is ever present.

The running behaviours are physical activities to try to quiet or quell that ceaseless pain and torment. For a spell, “running” does work. Albeit temporary, and with a high cost and collateral damage.

Also, there is the time travel. Teenager H is usually in control. That man child who was into edibles, got a tattoo, stayed out with friends drinking late into the night, carried two phones, driving and listening to music for hours on end, and so on.

H, the husband, is trapped inside. He doesn’t get seen very often. The crisis child doesn’t relinquished control. He, younger crisis H, has stayed silent and hidden, and will be no longer.

MLCer H knows everything H knows. MLCer H knows H is married, has a wonderful wife, has a son and a daughter, and so on. Yet, he doesn’t feel it. The teenage version of H wasn’t/isn’t married, nor has kids, etc.

Twisting that up even more, is of course the crisis. The unresolved unrecognized long ago trauma(s).

Does he (H and/or MLCer H) believe it?

Belief is an interesting state. There are components of both intellect and emotion. Both are together and pulling in the same direction. One can still intellectually debate or challenge their beliefs; for what good are beliefs/values/convictions if they cannot withstand scrutiny. Yet beliefs go beyond the sum of their intellectual and emotional parts. Far beyond. Well founded beliefs become life’s headings and instil and influence thoughts and feelings and physical actions.

MLCer H is in torment. He does not, cannot, believe in himself. Or anyone. He is emotionally thrashing about, brooding, depressed, sad, lost. The big problem is that poor crisis kid believes they are unworthy. Believes. Fully. And they have to undo the decades of believing that.

Alas, that is beyond our power. Nothing we do or say matters. And yet, everything we do or say does.

There is no magic bullet here. No well crafted words to shake their crisis’ fierce grip upon their soul. The best the LBS can be is a lighthouse. Shine. Illuminate the rocks. Stand tall and strong against the storm. And live and love our life. It’s up to the captain of that lost ship as to their course.

Does he believe it? IMO, H does. MLCer H doesn’t, or can’t, for he is enveloped in his own crisis and pain.

It is this altering of MLCer H’s belief that is the exiting of the crisis, and finding acceptance. Basically, MLCer H would merge with H.

DnJ, I'm sorry you had to heal from betrayal to become the wise man you offer me today. Hugs

Thank you.

My life has been an interesting journey. It certainly took a sharp and unexpected turn eight years ago.

Have a great day!

D

[Valeska19]

And yet - this is really good opportunity for you to see this dysfunctional dynamic you have - lead and follow.

Until I journaled it, the concept of 'H follows my lead' hadn't been a thought. And then you not only caught it, but highlighted it. Is this typical? Bc they've lost themselves and have just lived someone else's life, dreams, goals?

It seems a bit more complicated than that. Here are my thoughts from the bleacher seats.

It seems you and H are opposites. You seem like a "take charge" lady. On top of the bills, have the better job. Take care of the house. Total high functioner.

Your husband seems more chill.

Probably why you two were attracted to each other. You each posses traits the others wish they had more of. You probably push him. He probably relaxes you.

This dynamic works fine as long as the balance stays. But when it becomes unbalanced - cracks turn to chasms and things happen. Like the parent-child dynamic. The over/under functioner dynamic. Resentment for the one always doing most of the work. The need to rebel from the one being told to do more work. And the list continues.

You don't necessarily describe your H as someone who as always taken charge. In fact - you say that he often follows you. As you said - you take care of the bills, take the lead on the taxes..etc.

So from my perspective - it looks like your opposite attraction turned into an unbalanced relationship. And when that happens... BOTH people loose themselves to some degree.

If you are always telling H what could be beneficial to him, Where does he get the space to figure out his own answers on what's best for him?

If you are always swooping in to save him, how does he know he is confident to save himself?

Please do not take this as this is your fault. It is not. He is a grown man who is 100% responsible for his choices and processing his own feelings.

AND yet - when there is a dance... it's easier to follow when the steps are given to you. And yet - there is a part we all play.

So many people dodge this question on this board. We automatically go to MLC, previous trauma... etc. But what we fail to realize is that only addresses the coping strategy used to "deal with" whatever happened. We forget that something happened that caused them to use that unhealthy coping mechanism. So even if they learn better coping tools, the problem may still exist. Sometimes that is external. A family death. A traumatic event. Sometimes though... it is the marriage breaking down. Sometimes it is a dynamic that is no longer working.

Your marriage stands the best chance if you let him go. Loosen your grip on him that you've been unknowingly tightening over the years by doing so much for him. Yes - he may not choose you - and that is fvcking terrifying and heartbreaking. But if he does... he will do so because HE feels he's ready. Because he's confident again. Because he can see that you believe in him again.

You can't just say the words. You have to show him in your actions. And a big way is to stop being so "helpful", It's time to stop hiding behind that. It's time you see it as a more complicated answer. Yes.. part of it is from a loving place. But part of it is from another place too. Google "HFC" and "Too Much" and see if any of it rings true for you.

He gives you the lead because he is too uncomfortable to take it - really. That's probably what the acting out is. False leading, false masculinity... that is much easier than taking responsibility and accountability. He's confused on who to be, how to be... and MG - there is not a d@mn thing you can do about it.

It's unfathomable for me to think that H living in a world of hurt for this long is chosen over making a change. When your actions bring this much loss and pain, how foggy are things that you can't open your eyes to a better path. Whether it's a path with or without me. I'm not expecting a specific outcome. But I will say, if stopping over for a couple hours brings H to experience warmth and love, how do you not flock to that world as a way to run from your current choices? How his logical so far removed from his brain?

I heard this in a book I'm reading and it's profoundly true. Paraphrasing of course.

Who are you to say that your H isn't exactly in the place he is needed to be in so he can learn this lesson. Perhaps it will lead to a final healing. Perhaps not.

Either way... you are not God... so who are you to say what lessons he needs to learn when.

And Finally leaving you with one of my favorite quotes.

“Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded. It's a relationship between equals. Only when we know our own darkness well can we be present with the darkness of others.” - Pema Chodron

Focus on yourself. On why you choose to avoid your why you own hardships, demons, traumas, etc.

It will take you alot farther than you continually trying to understand his.