In this humble man's, the "Last Resort Technique" can be one of the most misunderstood, most misused, most feared, and most underutilized of all of Michele's tools.
The LRT, as I see it, isn't so much a defined set of actions, patterns, or a "plan". To me, it's more of a lifestyle, an attitude, and a state of mind.
To me, it's the infamous "Dobson letter", the one that is written and re-written at least 10 times, truly taken to heart within yourself, then torn up and never sent. If you have the right state of mind, your partner will KNOW you have set both them, and yourself, free by your words, actions, and attitudes, without ever giving them the letter.
It's when you finally take your life back, knowing that the DB techniques you've been learning and practicing are mostly for YOU and the quality of YOUR life. If you happen to draw your partner back to you, well, that's an added benefit.
It's when you are able to quit "reacting" to everything your partner does, or doesn't say or do. You begin taking the actions required to make your life situations better for YOU.
It's when you can stop letting fear guide your actions, and can open your mind up to a whole new world full of solutions to the situations you face in your daily life.
It's when "going dark" isn't merely done to prove to your partner that their life will SUCK without you, while you're hanging around for them to "wake up", to call or show up to profess their undying love for you. It's when you can use the "dark" times to work on yourself, and take a much needed break from the chaos. When you can re-center yourself UPON yourself, and not them or your relationship with them.
It's when you are no longer willing to put your life on hold while you are "waiting" for your partner to "recover" from their MLC, depression, an on-going affair, their lack of love for you, or whatever. You realize that you are in charge of your own life, that YOU are responsible for YOU, and you don't have to sit around in limbo until THEY change. You totally quite playing the "blame game". It's when you realize that you are not a "victim" to what life deals to you.
It's when the dreaded word "divorce" no longer sends your heart racing and mind reeling. After all, most of us are in a position where our relationships ain't too great right now, or could be a helluva lot better. Wouldn't you really love to "divorce" yourself from THAT relationship, and start a new one with your partner that's even better than what you could ever hope or imagine?
It's when you realize that your partner is a flesh and blood human being, that they have their own faults, doubts, demons, and fears, just the same as you. When you can begin to let go of trying to control the way they think and feel. When you learn to let them "own" their thoughts and feelings without assuming that YOU are responsible for, or have control over, those thoughts and feelings. When you can not necessarily "understand" them, but truly "accept" them.
It's when you can learn to be humble enough to admit that maybe this really ISN'T all about you, and you can stop taking all of your partner's actions and moods personally. When you can let them talk to you, vent their anger, thoughts, and feelings to you, without you feeling that it's all your fault, and that you can "fix" it, and that you can make it all better. Or that they really WANT you to make it all better. Or, that you even have the power to do that.
It's when you stop trying to "push" or "pull" your partner back into the relationship with you, and begin to "draw" them back to you. When you strive to become an irresistible magnet that no person can stop from being attracted to. Someone that makes a positive difference in the lives of everyone they touch. Someone that can make your partner feel that their lives are less joyful, less fulfilling, if they decide to spend it apart from you, to not have you near them. That you are someone that can add meaning to their lives just by knowing you. That can be an example of being the best that you can be.
It seems that thinking about the LRT can bring many negative, doom-ridden, and "final" thoughts to mind. I encourage everyone to "reframe" these thoughts, to put a positive spin on the concept, to see the actual benefits of this tool. (Or, maybe, we should have this "state of mind" FIRST instead of saving it for LAST?!)
I know that there's a lot of times I wish that I would have seen this tool in a more positive light sooner in my journey. As for me, it may be something I want to use as an "On Going Technique" instead of a "Last Resort Technique"!
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
Awesome post! Funny, I was scared a bit of the LRT too when I started. I think most of us are. But you can only make your sitch better...cause you are making YOU better. What kind of better? The better that is right for you...live life darnit, don't let it live YOU!
I never even knew this level of happiness existed. All the time, heck no - we are human. But no fear. No more crying. No more anguish over every tense word he speaks. No more worrying that he won't love me anymore. Cause I love myself and there are PLENTY of people out there that love me too. Why let one person ruin, or RUN your life - unless it is YOU running your life.
Wise words..and I'll stop babbling cause you said it soooooooo well. There IS control. It is within us.
Boy did I ever need this. I think I am at the LRT. I have re-read the segment in the book and am still having trouble knowing what to do. This helped. Thanks! Susie
Stop by my thread(My Story-Help) and tell me if you think I am on track. Thanks
Did you guys get blown over last weekend? We only lost one shingle. The neighbor's tree debris fell over her way for once:D. Finally she wants to cut it down. WooHoo!
Oh yeah. I think most people are too scared in general to do anything effective. That's why there's such a huge self-help industry. People keep looking for that magic bullet where they don't have to risk it all. Excellent wisdom for reference. Even if not doing a LRT, just doing something that makes you uncomfortable or maybe makes your DB recipient ANGRY! Doesn't mean it's not the exact right thing to do.
Thank you so much, Maybe Michele can hire you. Very helpful. I do think we all have to go througha process of letting all this stuff go before we can truely do it. The next thing to tackle is to know when it is truely appropriate. If you have any wisdom there I would love to hear it. I truely needed this today. Later, Sweet Orange
"The next thing to tackle is to know when it is truely appropriate. If you have any wisdom there I would love to hear it."
Sweet - I don't think that it is ever too early OR ever too late to get started on this. Remember, it can be a POSITIVE thing, setting you up for a win-win situation if your intentions are pure.
JJ
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sg: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this "state of mind". As a relitive newby here and at dbing, I agree that just thinking of it as a last resort technique makes it seem really scary for someone just starting out.
But thinking of it as a state of mind, man that makes a world of difference. I'm going to read this over and over until I can take it to heart.
Thanks JJ, I guess I am struggling with it. I am doing it as of now and hae been for about a month now. But am I truely letting go if I hope to get my H back b/c of it. My intentions are to give him space, work on improving myself (school and working out), work on improving friendships, and finally to let go of worrying about what he is doing or feeling. I think I still worry that he is not coping with this (he advoids conflict and this is the biggest ever). I have realized that this has less to do with me than it has to do with his general unhappiness, I've stopped feeling like I should have done something different. I guess I don't feel like I am really letting go if I hope to get him back. If I'm doing ok what is the next step. Thanks for your input you've helped me out before at a critcal point, I could use that help again. Thanks, Sweet Orange
SG, thanks for posting. I am getting better both at the "dark" item and the "LRT" item. Maybe we all have to go through the doom and gloom phase; after all, once you've reached that point where the Last Resort Technique seems like the only way, you're desperate. It's only after a bit of working on yourself that the dark grey starts to lighten and the possibilities open up. Then you're beginning to live, not just breathe. I see the light! TTFN
"I guess I don't feel like I am really letting go if I hope to get him back."
"Letting go" isn't necessarily the same as "tossing away". I think there's a BIG difference. Learning how to set yourself free from others, how to "detach" yourself from them, can actually work to bring you closer together. Sounds kinda weird, but it does seem to work that way.
You're taking yourself out of the equation when it comes to them and THEIR problems. Whether you've been needy, clingy, controlling, domineering, demanding, an anchor, or whatever they perceive you to be. You are removing yourself from being a scapegoat, are allowing them to begin to sort through their own stuff, and maybe give them a chance to see you in a different light. They deserve that courtesy from you. It's THEIR chance for self-discovery and change, just like you are doing. You don't have to "desert" them, you can be there with open arms and open eyes if and when they begin reaching back out to you.
Also, another biggie here is that you are taking THEM out of the equation when it comes to figuring out and working on YOUR stuff.
Again, if all this is done in the right frame of mind, I see this as a win-win situation all around for you, no matter what the final outcome of your relationship is.
JJ
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"Maybe we all have to go through the doom and gloom phase; after all, once you've reached that point where the Last Resort Technique seems like the only way, you're desperate."
It was that way for me. I had to hit an emotional rock-bottom, and began to feel the physical symptoms from all the stress. It was then that I decided that I wasn't going to do that to myself anymore, and made changes from there. Looking back, it seems like that was the point to where things really started to turn around for the better in not only me, but in my relationship with my wife.
It's almost like a spiritually cleansing experience. It can help you to begin to see where you really were, where you are now, and gives you a lot more options on choosing where it is you want to head.
JJ
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I want to add a piece of wisdom here from my dear friend Kent -
quote:Originally posted by KentS:
If there is one thing I wish I could help everyone see, it's that we make this struggle far worse than it needs to be. I wish everyone here could chill out a little more and stop beleiving that we are somehow in control of the situation. At best, we can control ourselves and most of us don't do that very well. If you realize this fact, we will know where to place our effort.
JJ
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BillB---I think its awesome that we have successful DB men like JJ and KentS and Cliff that are willing to share and give advice.
It is good for women like me to see men like you guys actually caring and working at the relationships. I think we women tend to think women are the only ones who really care, and it isn't true.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
Funny...I was just re-reading about LRT, when I had decided that I am already at that stage and MUST use it, when I took a break to scan this post.
I have nothing more to lose and everything to gain by using it...and your post, along with DB & DR's references to LRT gave me a little more hope, and took away a bit of fear of this technique. Excellent ! BigMouth49 << NO MORE !
Got so busy blabbing with friends I ran out of time to find the old thread and update - give others a chance to pummel me. Fair's fair.
Thought about some other underused Michele stuff.
People get so caught up in their drama they forget that Michele has a wicked sense of humor! And she give that upbeat spin on techniques all over her writing. Has anyone tried wearing groucho glasses while discussing something touchy?
One of my more successful forrays was...IGgy had this word that really just drove me mad. Bad, painful association and he knew it but he kept saying it. No, it wasn't Niagra Falls...
Anyway, I finally told him that every time he said that word, I was gonna kiss him (a good one too). If we were in too much public I'd stroke his arm or something. He was flabbergasted. "You're gonna give me something I want for doing something you hate?" Yep. And it worked. It really really worked.
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Even if not doing a LRT, just doing something that makes you uncomfortable or maybe makes your DB recipient ANGRY! Doesn't mean it's not the exact right thing to do.
You brought up a very important point here Fee. Sometimes the things we do are gonna piss off our partner. You can see many cases on this board where they think we should have changed earlier, on their time frame. Sometimes, they have their minds made up to dump us, we keep doing negative things to reinforce their thoughts, then all of a sudden we've changed, and they're not so sure any more. We make them rethink their plans. We've been doing the same dance for so long that if we change our steps, it trips them up and they can't run on autopilot. You're right, sometimes it may be just the right thing to do.
Part of the LRT is taking the time for us to rebuild our self-esteem, our self-confidence, and self-respect. I'm sure all of us know people who rate pretty high in these traits. These people are very "attractive", no matter what their physical appearances are. They tend to "draw" people to them, and most other people feel better just being around them.
Take the time during your LRT to build upon these positive traits, and see what transformations occur in ALL of your relationships, not just the one with your partner. It's another one of those win-win situations for your life!!
And don't forget your Groucho glasses!!
JJ
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Hey JJ.......How about your take on the low sex desire thread (I posted a question). A guy's perspective would be a good thing even if he doesn't have the low desire. rusty
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
W and I are separated. I have the kids . If W wants to go out she is extremely fee to do so since she only has herself to take care of. If I go out I either have to ask her to sit or pay for a sitter. If I have to get a sitter it really adds to the cost of a night out. Should I ask the W to sit or just get a sitter? I want her to sit for 2 reasons, to save me $ and so she knows I am going out and not sitting home on my butt having no life w/o her but don't want to risk an argument.
Bless me with some wisdom.
I took the road less traveled.....now where the heck am I?
Rodrigo, I guess you see JJ's wisdom on going dark, which is the best.
Do you have family who can sit? Doesn't she have visitation? Can you go out when she's doing her visitation? It's sort of unusual for a guy to have the custody---can you count on her to be responsible with the kids?
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
Haven't seen JJs wisdom on going dark. Point me there. We aren't legally separated and haven't bothered to work out any formal visitation schedule. I bascially let her come and go as she pleases. She has been here every weekend but one since she left so she hasn't really 'missed' the kids enough to ask to see them w/o me there. We still get along quite well, go places together, sleep together (though that is winding down). I guess I am just waiting for her to come to her senses (my opinion). Can she be trusted with them? Absolutely. She is not as loving a mother as I would like and is sometimes inattentive but she does love them. A condition of her wanting this sep was that she goes and the kids stay. She agreed and said I was the better parent anyway. She is giving me the typical "I love you but not IN love with you" speech. We married when she was 19 so I understand where she is coming from. No oat sowing time. Patience right?
I took the road less traveled.....now where the heck am I?
SG & Fee - You ladies are making me blush! I'm really not that neat of a guy, kinda messy, but I DO clean up after myself on occasions! AND I also can do my share of dishes and laundry!!
I feel a lot of love on this thread! Time for a (((((group hug))))).
SG - I'm checking out that other thread now. Will give it some thought between my thinking about sex every 20 seconds!!
JJ
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this original post reminds me of the poem IF by Rudyard Kipling:
If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you But make allowance for their doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!" If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
WOW! This thread was just what I needed today! If you look at my post for today on my thread, this is the answer to my question! THANKS!!!!! I'm printing this one out.
Bomb Nov 01 PA w/OW (lied for 10 yrs) Dumped OW/back home Nov 02 I became WAS:Feb 05 Reconciled:Oct 06 Current:Going strong, Still using DB techniques to KEEP it that way 10 years later!
Duh! I'm kinda impatient so I have been jumping to the top of the last page of each thread so I missed the first JJ post. Excellent!
Drop by my thread and provide some input?
I don't feel I am at LR stage but think the LRT is just what I need to do right now. Only been hard at it for a couplke days. Eager to see some results.
Watching 'Blind Date' God I hope I never have to date again, uggh!
I took the road less traveled.....now where the heck am I?
C2H, I gotta agree. I'm struggling with this, but have days that i really make it happen. I feel better and my W has said that she is "growing more fond of me". This seems to happen when i'm really working on my self and finding i am in control of MY happiness. Tim
Hello. Well, here I am on the last day of my LRT...and tomorrow the 4th of April is my "coming back into some light day" after 9 wks. of "black." And, I'm still trying to make some sense of it, and no one added to my threads, so here I am scanning and I find this. Yes, just what I needed to hear.
Why I believed in this DB stuff is: it works whether things work with the partner or not, the DBer still wins. So, I thought okay...I have nothing left to lose, and everything to gain.
So, thanks JJ for putting it so well, and SG for the thread, and for all the poster's remarks.
I've had that poem (IF) on my fridge for so long it's all yellowed. It's a great one.
I just said on Kent's thread that we need to re-evaluate and revamp our techniques as necessary too. What works at one point may not later as we evolve.
Bye guys. Hey SG, I did your homework but hadn't had a good time to post it. And then some really interesting stuff happened and I need to post some of that. Maybe tonite or not. Who knows.
JJ, Thanks again for the past posts to me. I've had a pretty depressing week and am now I'm on the upswing and I reread this post again. I need to read it everynight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It helps me remove the focus I place on myself for being bad and not worthy (which I know is not true) to "hey let him screw up and see that it wasn't me that caused it." I haven't been available to be the scapegoat for a while now for him, but I have been playing it out far too much in my mind this week. Later, Sweet Orange
quote:People get so caught up in their drama they forget that Michele has a wicked sense of humor! And she give that upbeat spin on techniques all over her writing. Has anyone tried wearing groucho glasses while discussing something touchy?
I personally have 4 pair (in the event of violent rip-off and step on by aggrevated spouse, I have complete backup--redundancy is everything!
I haven't used them yet. Now that I'm back with my W and working on our M, I'm holding them in reserve for our first post-reuniting fight. I'll let everyone know the outcome, either from here (at home--yeah!) or from the Paradise Valley Hospital's computer.... Done
This post was very helpful to me, and was always one of my personal favorites. It came around at a time when I really needed it, and helped me to get going in the right direction.
Thanks Michele and Jamie!!
This is topic Jamie's Story in forum Another Divorce Busted! at Michele's Forums.
Posted by Michele (Member # 450) on January 30, 2001, 04:08 PM:
Another one today, yeah! ************************************* Hi Everyone- This is the first thread I've opened since my H returned home at the end of the summer after our 21 month separation and I have to say that things are better between us than they've ever been. I am a firm believer of DB for many reasons, but the primary ones are that it helped me reach the point where I honestly knew that I would be fine regardless of whether my H returned and it helped me piece my marriage back together. I waited a full 6 months before fully reporting back here because our rebuilding was a gradual process, as had been the deterioration of our marriage, and my focus, with the exception of sporadically posting on others' threads, was on continuing my DB efforts once we were living together again. Even in my now healthy marriage, I catch myself occassionally by guarding against falling back into some negative patterns that I took full responsibility for when I looked deep inside myself during our separation. My H and I have openly discussed the things he did that contributed to our problems and he too has clearly changed. So, in a nutshell, we both have made necessary changes and continue to grow.
When I look back and read some newer posts on the board now I can so vividly remember the pain I experienced and the roller coaster ride that went on and on and on. I remember wanting to detach from my H's drama and trying to develop strategies to have him notice the "changed me," but my detachment came only after I knew and practiced that I would be o.k. regardless of what happened with our marriage. I didn't shut him out of my life, but I didn't openly invite him along. There was no longer a compelling need on my part for OR conversations and I was relaxed on both the outside and the inside. We took a family vacation four months before his return and had a wonderful time. A couple of weeks later he stated that he wanted to return home to me and our two children. Naturally, I wanted that immediately, but it became clear that it needed to happen on a slower track.
Once he moved back home, I went through the process of having to catch myself in those moments of wondering whether he was here to stay or "just testing the waters." We slept in separate bedrooms initially and it was another phase for me to understand how he could be so sure he was here to stay yet not crave physical intimacy with me. We talked openly about it and decided that we would become the best of friends again before taking further steps. With that as history now, I'm so thankful for how things went upon his return. I had had an overwhelming desire to make up for lost time and I suppose it might have been riddled with some predictable neediness that I thought I had shed during our separation--further evidence that there is always more to be learned and absorbed in the DB way.
I again thank Michele and everyone here for helping me through my darkest days and helping me to find the strength to do what I needed to do to get my life back on track. "Getting my life back on track" was not a guarantee that my marriage would come back together, but it was a guarantee that I'd find myself again and pursue what it was that would bring happiness to me and my children. You know who you are and I love you and think of you often--Jamie
JJ
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Wow JJ! That was great! That encompasses a lot of stuff in a small space. Now if people can remember it when their own waters are being tested .
Something I'd been thinking about this morning...
It would be nice if more men would turn "love" into an action verb toward their wives and children and less a noun. That they would recognize that they get positive response from loving (albiet awkward) actions. To not give up just cause their family is tentative in their response. If they could personalize their families response to how they react when they're in a similar situation. Usually they find their family is being quite resonable and probably nicer than if it were them.
It would be nice if more women would recognize when their husbands are shouting their love off the rooftops even if it's not the way they want it. A lot of times we don't even see they're showing love in their way. Sometimes she's so busy being annoyed or hurt by his actions instead of stopping and realizing that he's saying he loves her and her alone. It's something ladies - appreciate it before it's withdrawn or given elsewhere.
Just really resonant this morning for me. I think if both sides would work harder on those things, a lot more relationships would be stronger, happier and fulfilling.
Do you "want" your partner, or do you "need" your partner?
If you "need" your partner, you'll get caught up in a whirlwind of desperation to "get them back". You're going to jerked around, "reacting" to every situation that comes along.
All of your energy will be focused on changing yourself to become the person that THEY want you to be, instead of concentrating on being a person that YOU want to be.
Your life can become an empty vacuum that sucks the life-force out of everyone that comes close to you. It can be a drain to just be around you.
Learn to "want" your partner. Win them back and keep them by adding to their lives instead of being a source of negative energy flow. "Share" your life with them, and don't make them responsible for your well-being and happiness.
This is the best gift you could ever give to your partner, and, more importantly, to yourself.
JJ
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This is a great point & something I've been looking at lately. Once we arrive at this moment, we radiate with love, warmth & tenderness which is irresistable to everyone...
I just wanted to share with you what prompted me to write this.
Due to various emotional and medical reasons, my wife has "needed" me for the past year to help her get her life back together. OUR life back together.
I made the decision (not relying on the feeling) that I was going to love her. It's been quite a struggle for me at times, and this is one of those times.
She's a thousand times better than she was, and I have to keep that in mind. It CAN be very draining on me, and the relationship, when she depends on me for too many things. For her stability, comfort, and happiness.
If I was working strictly off of feelings, if I hadn't made my "decision" to love her, if I had the frame of mind of a walkaway, I'd probably be tossing in the towel now, depending on the day.
Walkaways have made different choices than I have. I must confess that this neediness is something that made me leave the relationship a couple of years ago. My hopes are that others can learn from this by reading, and not by experience.
JJ
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I understand this completely. We can so easily burden our spouses with our own stuff & it's not fair on them or our marriage. I did this for a number of years & it weighed heavy on my beautiful husband.
When we're both happy, at peace & strong within, we complement each other and bring more joy & love into our marriage. Everyone benefits and we become a source of happiness to everyone we touch.
"When we're both happy, at peace & strong within, we complement each other and bring more joy & love into our marriage. Everyone benefits and we become a source of happiness to everyone we touch."
And that happiness, peace, and strength can start with just one person.
It's one of those "good" cantagious "diseases"!!
JJ
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JJ- There are gold nuggets throughout this DB mountain. Some miners are digging in empty shafts, others are mining with tiny chisels and itty bitty hammers,toiling and sweating feverishly.
You have hit the mother load and the stuff is just laying all over the mine, nuggets so huge, newbies will stub their toes if they just, (as Aerosmith and Run DMC once recorded) "WALK THIS WAY".
Great job, oh wise one. Keep it up
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
You know one that I think is universal? How much we really expect out of other people. What we think we deserve from them. How rarely they can measure up.
Like we're so perfect?
Come on, even if you're with a genuine baddie and you have some justified reasons (she says in the mirror)...
Why did you choose them?
What do you need to fix in youself so you don't repeat undesired scenerios all your life?
I'll tell you, once I took IGgy out of the picture and only had me to look at - ugh...I don't think I would have liked to try to be with me. Justified or not. Been working at it and guess what?
Just try it....maybe you'll see what I'm talking about.
but what about if one person in the partnership is relatively pretty good in the r/ship dept? and still gets dumped....one day its all hot and spicy and the next day its pass the water please....
Like oh.... you believed me when l told you l loved you and wanted to grow old together and then 2 weeks later and things are pretty good and then he wants out....
Phoee, like "careful, cuz when you point your finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you" (Your thumb, however, is like the Swiss, neutral and not getting involved in this "finger pointing" mess )
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
quote:Originally posted by Committed2Him: JJ- There are gold nuggets throughout this DB mountain. Some miners are digging in empty shafts, others are mining with tiny chisels and itty bitty hammers,toiling and sweating feverishly.
I'm a rather lazy person at times, and grew weary of all the digging.
It was then that I decided to try some dynamite to blast my way through some of the mess.
I had a few extra sticks of the stuff left over since they won't let me use it for fishing anymore.
Guess I must have misunderstood Kent when he told me that fishing was a blast!
Thanks, bud!
JJ
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JJ thank you so much for stopping by, I think your idea is great! Thanks a lot!!!!! I mean that there is no sarcastic tone! Later, Sweet Orange I invite you to visit my thread as often as you like. I need more male perspectives in this.
C2H - Unless you lost fingers in some weird margarita accident, then you may only have the one pointing away from you...
Sorry, couldn't resist
Div- as funny as this sounds, If it's like that, why not go dark for a month so you don't know what they're doing and you have time to remember what life is like when you're really in control of it? I tell ya, that's why I had a bazillion posts for the first few months here...tying up the phone lines so I wouldn't see that he hadn't called (cause it sucks to go out and see on CID that he hadn't even tried to call). You may be surprised what that does to a hot & cold part time partner.
quote:Originally posted by Sparky: RE: Enabling/Rescuing. My therapist said something really helpful about this. She said that it's enabling if I try to figure out how to help others before I know what it is I really want. It's not a problem that I consider others, just that I often put their needs before mine. So I was talking about how reasons why I was living out of the house, and they all had to do with my husband. My therapist asked what it is I wanted, and she asked me to make my decision as if there was no husband. WHAT DO I WANT?!
Well, I want to live in my apartment. It's that simple. Yes, I do have a good situation right now. Yes, I could stay here and would be willing to compromise if asked. These are truths. But the important thing is that I find out what I really want FIRST. I've been doing it backwards.
I do think that for many of us, we feel like we need to befriend our spouses again. That we have to be the nice guy, or we will risk losing our marriage. But the biggest 180 for many of us is to stop taking care of everything. Stop anticipating others' needs before we know what we want. I think it's a much more powerful message than the same old I'll-help-you routine many of us have been in for years.
When you rescue people, they don't learn to make do for themselves. And in the long run, they may resent you for this. Or they may come to expect a certain level of care from people. It makes them less of who they are. And that's not good. In some ways, shaking things up is a good thing.
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
quote:Originally posted by Michele: GD1, You certainly have been through a lot and I completely understand why you're feeling what you're feeling. Whether you would agree to have a marriage of convenience is not really the point in my opinion. You can do it or not do it. Both options are fine. But here's what I think.
One of the things that has become crystal clear from the posts on this board is that doing a 180 or the last resort isn't really about a strategic technique, it's about letting go. Lots of people have commented that unless you truly let go and you exude this belief from every pore of your being, it probably won't have any effect. Your spouse has to sense that you have moved on with your life and that being together isn't your agenda anymore. that's not to say you wouldn't be willing to do it, it's just that your spouse must not sense that you are still hoping, praying, thinking about him much of the time.
I know it's easy for me to say and probably nearly impossible for me to do if I had to, but I can tell from your writing, which is very succinct, BTW, that you are and always have been incredibly focused on your marriage. When things go well in love, GD does fine. When things don't, your life isn't quite right. I understand how you feel, but your husband probably does too. He knows that no matter what happens, you'll be there.
I'm not suggesting that you file for divorce, stop speaking to him or doing some extreme version of going dark, all I'm saying is that you have to do some soul searching about what YOU'D have to do differently for him to sense that you're completely fine without him. Maybe you think you've been there already, I don't know. But from what you write, it seems that your primary project has been your marriage...always.
So, think about it. Can you think of what you could do differently to really, really let go? (Not just a technique, remember, but a major transition in your inner self.)
Hang in there, Michele
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
This is to JJ. I'm new to the thread and read your post of May 9, 2002, I believe, (when I clicked here, that link disappeared)where you refer to a post about "Letting Go." In that passage is this statement:
In your heart, you can be willing to lose someone, but in your actions, do everything you can to make sure the person feels so loved that he or she would never want to leave.
Okay, how does one do this and not give the impression of being "clingy?"
quote: Okay, how does one do this and not give the impression of being "clingy?"
aplomando, I will add some thoughts while you wait for JJ?s answer (learned some of these techniques from him): Practice validation, showing respect, honest communication, active listening etc. Most spouses pursue their WAS and cross the boundaries the WAS has set up. This only serves to aggravate the WAS, they feel like their spouse is being needy, clingy or pursuing etc.
When the WAS is given their space, at some point they will need to or want to communicate with their spouse for a variety of reasons and those are the opportunities where the Dber can be empathetic, genuine, validating, respectful, not defensive etc. There is a difference between practicing active listening or using validating techniques and being clingy.
People want to be understood but when they have reached the point of being a WAS, they first want relief and they want their space. The opportunity to demonstrate unconditional love will present itself almost every time. C2H
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
quote:Originally posted by Committed2Him: What others have found helpful is to do things that would enhance your self esteem right now, do something you have always wanted to do. You feel rejected as a person but W really was rejecting your actions and how you treated her. She was rejecting a behavior and behaviors can change.
aplomado - C2H was right on with his response to you. He is a very wise soul indeed!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
We both gained our "wisdom " at the DBing School of Do It The Wrong Way Until You Finally Get It Through Your Thick Skull! I gots a PhD, thank you very much!
Thank you for the responses. The last thing I want to appear is "clingy" since that is one of her complaints. I have been distancing myself, but have not been cold or cruel. Any other links that might help?
Reading this has really helped me this morning. I am having such a tough time following through as things draw to a close for me. I think. I assume. Since I see no evidence to the contrary, I don't know if leaving him alone is working, but I know it isn't as hurtful as contacting him. And surely on some level, he must be wondering...even if it has only been a few weeks.
Damn, this is so hard, and I am so grateful for everyone's patience as I stumble and fumble my way around here...
Been playing along at home - still great stuff but it didn't need any bumps before today .
Here's what I would call a FRT (First Resort Technique) - Have you ever said something? At all? Even a little?
It sounds like DB Blasphmay doesn't it? But I find so many people don't tell anyone there's something wrong in the first place. Usually for fear or the mindreader syndrome.
I've had friends who were furious with me for great lengths of time. Finally, because I can be dense - I say "hey, what's wrong?". Usually I get "nothing just nothing". So I may press a little. Pretty soon everything's out in the open and we're peas and carrots all over again.
And there have been times when I thought others should just know better and have some compassion for me or that they're just big ol boobs - til I say "Hey, would you please XXX?" and bammo - they're like "Sure, how's that?".
Presentation is everything. If you come off offensive or defensive then you're gonna get a negative response. But if you're honest and use manners, you may be surprised what you may get back. Nervous is ok too as long as you don't attack like a little fluffy dog.
It's when you've done that and you're still getting rebuked that I can see going to the next step.
Sorry JJ - I love what you've been posting but I hate to "just" bump up a thread. And I talk too much...
I don't know why, but it seems when you read the book you want to immediately leap to the LRT. Desparation I suppose. But in so many sitches, LRT is more of the same. LRT is the epitome of ignoring you spouse, and if you haven't dealt with the issues that brought you to this point, haven't really considered how you could be better and made yourself such, LRT is just more same-old.
Sometimes the true "something different" is to actually talk to your spouse, and if you had done that even the week before you showed up here, or the week before the 'bomb', then you might not be here.
Now, I don't mean begging and pleading. I mean talking. Sharing. Being friendly. Finding out likes and dislikes. Non judgemental. Non controlling. Just talk, as you would to a newly met aquaintance.
Good post, fee. (as you see, I can't just bump either..... )
quote:Here's what I would call a FRT (First Resort Technique) - Have you ever said something? At all? Even a little??It sounds like DB Blasphmay doesn't it? But I find so many people don't tell anyone there's something wrong in the first place.
Presentation is everything. If you come off offensive or defensive then you're gonna get a negative response. But if you're honest and use manners, you may be surprised what you may get back. Nervous is ok too as long as you don't attack like a little fluffy dog.
Z astutely added:
quote:Now, I don't mean begging and pleading. I mean talking. Sharing. Being friendly. Finding out likes and dislikes. Non judgemental. Non controlling. Just talk, as you would to a newly met aquaintance.
My 2 cents. Agree wholeheartedly that when we can communicate, seek to understand and validate the WAS's feelings (not judge them) AND, can avoid justifying and defending our past actions or behaviors, we can make a little headway with our spouses. Maybe enough headway to speed up the healing process such that we never get to a LRT.
I don't know why, but it seems when you read the book you want to immediately leap to the LRT. Desparation I suppose. But in so many sitches, LRT is more of the same. LRT is the epitome of ignoring you spouse,
Is it?...certainly not my undersatnding of LRT. I dont see "ignore your spouse" wriiten about in the context of LRT in DB.
and if you haven't dealt with the issues that brought you to this point, haven't really considered how you could be better and made yourself such, LRT is just more same-old.
Well it's probably a bit to late by this time and will require more than change alone..More than likely they have reached this point after a number of years(maybe a little sooner in some cases) of being neglected or let down or "things not working" or whatever the issues happens to be. During an LRT or separation(in house or out of house) the changes required of you should be undertaken.
Sometimes the true "something different" is to actually talk to your spouse, and if you had done that even the week before you showed up here, or the week before the 'bomb', then you might not be here.
Well perhaps but the emotional divorce occurs before the words or "the bomb") are spoken.Talking is fine but getting on your spouses case as in "OR talk" usually is'nt.You can try but you need to be careful and ready to back off. Most talk about "us" under these circumstances is unwelcome the majority of the time.
Now, I don't mean begging and pleading. I mean talking. Sharing. Being friendly. Finding out likes and dislikes. Non judgemental. Non controlling. Just talk, as you would to a newly met aquaintance.
Yes provided they are receptive to this approach(and often they are if it is the first time you are actually listening to them,validating and honoring them as a person,with their OWN thoughts feelings and opinions. It must be genuine though,not a ploy.(they could still be mistrustful of your motives even if you are genuine). If it seen that way you run the risk of further damage.Be prepared to back off quick if it looks like fouling up,if you are not handling it well.(and most dont at first.)
Something I like about Michele - once I figured out what she was talking about - was that it's not about feelings or thoughts or reasons or any of that. It's just - "if you want this, do that. Most of the time it works".
When I first came here, we were beyond LRT. What worked at that point was me shutting up and disengaging completely. It took a while before either of us could do much more than that.
So...like many here, I say read Michele's books periodically. If you've been growing, you will get something new out of them each time.
Hi Z - long time...no Z . I've Zeen you around and it seems you've been a busy guy....good good good!
quote:Originally posted by Mick: I don't know why, but it seems when you read the book you want to immediately leap to the LRT. Desparation I suppose. But in so many sitches, LRT is more of the same. LRT is the epitome of ignoring you spouse,
Is it?...certainly not my undersatnding of LRT. I dont see "ignore your spouse" wriiten about in the context of LRT in DB.
I don’t see it either. Yeah. I think that it’s desperation. I think people think that they’ve already tried everything, so there’s nothing left but the Last resort. They’re looking for a silver bullet.
But, by definition, LRT is Last resort.
I like what people have been saying about First resort. In a nutshell, get your own head together first.
A relationship is between two people. You can’t fix the other, so start with yourself. Once you are “fixed”, you’re 50% done.
What about the other half? There’s nothing you can do about him/her. All you can do is patiently wait for the day when s/he is willing to work on his/her half of the R. If s/he is willing – or more accurately – becomes willing, then you’re on your way. If not, then you most certainly haven’t wasted your time by improving yourself.
so confused. there is a whole lot on this thread it all makes sense yet it seems conflicting. I don't know what point I am at yet, or if I'm even in any postion to save the marriage or rather get it back, more likley get it started. The one clear message in this thread is work on improving yourself for yourself. this I can do how to handle wah still trying to figure that out. LL
It all sounds to easy ....but how do you do it?????? How will they notice anything if you are separated living different lives????
Yes your dark....but when you come to the light what and how do they notice changes???? I can sit here and focus on my health, my work, my pride, my respect and let him live his life but how will H know that I've changed?????
Not calling....not caring,,,, be quiet..... It all sounds to wonderful....but where to begin to get this man to notice is the problem..... I printed the whole first thread .....I will try to find the strength.....to focus on me....let him go....but how will he see.....
The real key is when you don't ask how he will notice. That is letting go. That is when you will be there. Because it makes no difference what someone else thinks, it only matters what you think. You have to know you have changed. He may not care.
My DB Coach recommanded the LRT. Mt W asked for a legal separation and began dating someone she met at work the very next day. I know for a fact the relationship turned physical within a couple of weeks.
I am on the west coast and she is on the east coast. I am in the military and one of her biggest complaints is the amount of time she is alone. (BTW - she had a PA the last time I deployed overseas) and I am sure that PA was the first in our 14 yrs of M. That PA was 2 yrs ago. Now the new OM!
I have stopped calling/persuing her and do not answer the phone every time she calls me. I usually wait and return the call later. She is now calling me, and often.
She sent me the "worksheet" for the legal separation agreement today. She got it from thr military legal assistance office. They will prepare the agreement for us at no charge - how freaking wonderful! There is a section on the "worksheet" that ask for the separation date and defines it as "the date the parties separated with the intent to never resume the marital relationship". It asks if the separation is to be premanent and intended to lead to divorce? Guess these folks want to make sure the involved parties don't come back and ask for paperwork to terminate the separation - that's just more work and a marriage certainly isn't worth reviving (reading between the lines).
I'm just wondering if the LRT going to affirm her belief that we should separate or just make things worse? I understand the LRT is mostly for me to GAL - and I'm slowly getting into that.
She called today and we talked about everything but the R for about an hour. Sounds like she is depressed. I am the only one who sounds up or positive. It was a very enjoyable conversation though - made her laugh a few times. She is asking lots of questions about what I'm doing everyday and weekends. She is also asking me questions like "do you think someone can be a functioning alcoholic? I it normal for someone to have 5 or 6 glasses of wine every night and that not be a problem? (sounds like she may be seeing this in her new OM - I got questions like that during her last A)
I haven't seen her in a month and doing that requires much planning (plane tickets,etc) and her agreement. Not sure how open she would be to scheduling time with me since OM is around.
It going to be hard for her to SEE any changes in me if we never see each other. She may see some during our conversations, but....
Anyone got any thoughts, comments, experience to relate?
Quote: Anyone got any thoughts, comments, experience to relate?
Experience:
My ex-fiance of two years broke up w/ me in the most terrible way. I found out later about the OW. After months and months of crying and pleading, I made a decision: I stopped calling, didn't return calls, wrote very short e-mails (when HE wrote), was mysterious when we talked, stopped having sex, started dating other people and appeared content with "something" in my life. He became so puzzled that started pursuing what was going on.
At first he would call more often (I always had to go and couldn't talk very much).
One day he picked me up at the airport (after coming back from overseas and responding his e-mails with very short paragraphs) and I was very quiet (not grumpy). That bothered him immensely. He kept asking questions about my life and what had happened while I was away. I wanted him to think that something had happened, and he did. He even asked if I met other people; if I went out with someone. My answer: "why do you want to know?"
Eventually, he started inviting me out. He tried kissing me one day. When I refused his advances, he ended up giving me one of his cars at the end of the day! A few months later, he started offering for me to go live with him in another city where he got a good job. Less than a year later, he professed he couldn't stop thinking about me and couldn't find anyone like me.
And this was a man who broke up with me saying he would never like to see me again and that our relationship was a big mistake!
Comments:
She is pursuing you. Let her! It's the first sign of the beggining of the chase.
Thoughts:
Behave "as if" you are too busy to think about her, that you have too many things in mind, which could include another person.
Thanks for the comments. Just wondering what to do with the Separation Agreement? I don't want to do it, but if she says that's what she needs - then I guess I should do it and make sure I don't leave myself open to getting "screwed" legally.
Still not sure how I should handle seeing her - if at all. Any other comments/recommendations welcomed.
Right just found lots of textx to this girls all day sat fri all amounts. Just called him and told him to come home at lunch cos I need to end this. He said what |and I said this torment. I'm going to confront him. May blow up in face and I maybe I should hold off til counselling but Oh I'm angry
1 one day out of the blue, H claims does not love me, doesn't know why, when pushed claims it's because I moan if he forgets stuff from shops, exaggerates past arguements. 2 week be IDLY stays out til 5.30am with work mates
3. I find lots of texts to one particular work mate 4. Find viagra in is jeans 5. Texts all the time
If anyone is reading these please reply. Does LRT also mean NC, the reason I ask is it's almost impossable for that to happen for me because I have not even moved out and she has resonded a lttle from this technique! she was even suggestive about sex. I don't want to over do any thing or under do anything. She is not happy right now with some of her choices but I hold firm with LRT and it seems to be working. asking me to help but not live there I stood my ground on that. I do not contact her at all unless there is something that has to be done and not for her. but I do give a little but not so readly. I think she is starting to feel that it does suck without me. She has been on a man hunt now for months. I don't jump on every little signal from her good or bad. I see the pressure building on her though and I don't want to slip when I should make a move even a slight one with the small flirts I have over looked. Do I hold out this way for a better responce or when they do become suggjestive in the right dirrection should I lean a little more in that dirrection also? BTW I am not sure if she is sill working on OM with the way she has been frustrated I would say it's not good. Talk to me.....
Last edited by pauld2100; 03/09/0911:42 PM.
Me 40 waw 39 Never formally M Common law SD 16 SS 13 Together 9 yrs bomb 10/2/08 She started dating 11/08 Started P/A 01/09 Contiunes to call R over
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