I'm starting a new thread because I want to re-frame my journey into becoming a slow walk home.
Had a long talk with a friend today who said to me that OM really really doesn't mean anything. He is saying that since W is living with me and is now being more friendly and open so we can be 'friends' that there is a part of her that is wondering if I'll try to get her to reconcile. In other words will I go back to being 'needy'. That same part is wondering if I have really changed and will the changes last forever. She feels empowered by her affair because to her it means she doesn't 'have to' stay with me, she has choices.
She is getting her love needs fulfilled by her EA. But she has to be a little lonely and I'm the only one here. My friend thinks that when she is being nice to me she is testing me to see if I'm going to be needy, or go into a mode where I need to be 'fixed', or if I am going to pull her towards me. OM has lots of problems but she doesn't see him as needy right now and she is so overwhelmed by the 'in love' drug that she doesn't think straight anyway.
So I am starting a new thread to focus on ME and US and the here and now. I still need input from everyone as to what is going well because It isn't always obvious to me.
Whats the old saying..."Possession is nine tenths etc". Right now and for the near future you have possession of her "space and time" and its up to you how you take advantage of that.
Tonite we set out all the stuff for the kids. W noticed I was down and I told her that I wasn't being needy but I was hurting due to our situation.
We ended up talking for about 1/2 hour and we cleared up some things I wasn't sure about. The points are:
- We will be friends, she is worried that I will be too hurt if/when she gets ito a relationship. She says OM is not a relationship yet but may or may not become one, she doesn't know. I would have thought by now she WOULD know.
- She feels guilty about OM and what she did with him. She didn't elaborate but it's basically the trip to see him and the affair. She said that she is dealing with the fact that some of her friends are angry with her because of her actions. I didn't know that, should have asked her who it was.
- She does not ever see us get back together. She feels we have done what we were supposed to do and that she got married too young and didn't know herself. This is all about her and her needs to find out who she really is. The OM is just an additional problem.
- She says I showed her how to love a man and that she knows I was mature in my love life to be able to love her deeply and without barriers but she wasn't in that place in her life and she is trying to learn how to do that now.
- She says she loves me unconditionally, as she does our children. She tried to make it sound like it wasn't special but clearly it is.
- She reaffirmed her commitment to go to therapy together to 'explore those crevasses' where we are storing the hurt from our relationship. She feels (as do I) that we can't have any new relationships unless we resolve a lot of open wounds from our marriage.
- She says she will stay living together for a year, unless one of us gets into a relationship and it becomes too hard for the other to deal with the living situation. As I said earlier, she is pursuing OM relationship but isn't sure if it will become one or not. Unlike me, he clearly does not represent 'stability'.
- We talked about our relationship, our new friendship. She says she is feeling comfortable hugging me and being touched by me, when we had dinner tonite our knees were touching under the table and she mentioned that as a positive event. She is still emotionally 'guarded' and will NOT let herself have any attraction to me at all. She is able to consider hugs, smiles and other touching as expressions of love in the context of our new 'friendship'. She believes it is not a problem for her to keep that distance between us but still have some of the closeness also.
- She says she is dealing with a lot of hurt and grief. She is grieving the end of the marriage and the hurt behind it.
I noticed an e-mail from OM tonite saying that he 'felt negative energy towards him coming from me'. Huh? When we got home and W went into her room and got online to chat with him I was hurt and angry at HER. I don't think much of him but I also don't get angry at HIM because she initiates contact. I generally see him as pathetic.
And please, how could he 'feel the energy' from me? He is not a grounded individual, or even particularly intuitive. He gets all his strength in that regards from HER. And she got her strength from ME.
He knew we were out together as a family tonite. I wonder if he is feeling insecure and has to paint a negative picture of me to her to feel better? I noticed that he only says negative things about me. He has no knowledge of me so how can he know me? He really only knows me through her telling him the negatives and the divorce.
He mentioned to her that he thought his 'ex girlfriend' who is living with him still is 'seeing someone'. He says that's good but the way he phrased it was 'I have been cheated on before and all the indications are there'. Say again? At his age how does he find women who cheat on him, can't he tell the difference? Even my wife has shocked everyone who knows her with her affair, and she feels GUILTY about it, but isn't about to stop because the feelings are so addictive. But he's found women who can cheat on him?
And you don't just ASK her? She's not your GF any more right? I ask my wife all the time about where her relationship with HIM is at. What a coward.
He has decided to move 'out west'. I'm sure that makes W feel like he is doing it for her but I simply cannot imagine what kind of man would do that? I am more inclined to think he needs to move somewhere that he has a woman so he won't be alone. At first I thought this was an issue for me but a lot can happen in the next year.
Clearly HE is not ME. I am much more secure in my self and not one to flit around the country, but to set down my foundations and deal with my life on my own terms.
So, overall what I got from her was a continued comittment to therapy, to discover the things that made our relationship fail. She doesn't ever see us together again, those days are gone forever in her mind. She sees a relationship with OM coming, but isn't sure about it really happening. My gut feeling is that while she believes she WANTS it to happen I think she sees that it SHOULDN'T happen. He is too messed up and she is still MARRIED. That's my gut talking and I am pretty intuitive. Her words say "I am done and moving on", her feelings say "I want to keep you around because I do love you".
While she implied that if she were in a relationship we may not be able to be friends, I think that she would NOT like it if I wasn't her friend.
I get the message that I need to simply be myself, let her do what she says she wants, and walk beside her as a friend would. I was originally afraid of OM and that whole situation but when I saw his email being negative about me it was clear to me that he is afraid OF ME. That's the first thing I think of wehn someone bad mouths me - they are afraid of me.
Even though she is focused on being 'in love' with him, he knows that she loves me in a very different and authentic way that he can't touch.
So, if what she says she wants is true then there is nothing to lose by working the therapy and the friendship.
When we decided to go to bed, I held out my arms and she came and shared a very warm and authentic hug with me and then went to her room.
This is weird. Even though she gave me the 'it's over and I am going into other relationships' speech I hurt, but I also have this feeling in my gut that as she drops her shield between us and if I can be the true friend she needs, then there will be another shift.
The only thing that is blocking me is my own fears.
Quote: So, overall what I got from her was a continued comittment to therapy, to discover the things that made our relationship fail. She doesn't ever see us together again, those days are gone forever in her mind. She sees a relationship with OM coming, but isn't sure about it really happening. My gut feeling is that while she believes she WANTS it to happen I think she sees that it SHOULDN'T happen. He is too messed up and she is still MARRIED. That's my gut talking and I am pretty intuitive. Her words say "I am done and moving on", her feelings say "I want to keep you around because I do love you".
After thinking about this I'm feeling that the feelings she has are "I want to keep the feelings of love I have for you, and you have for me but I don't want to be romantically involved with you ever again".
When she talks she is not upset or confused. She has thought a lot of this out and thinks she knows what she wants. There is some confusion with her about OM and what to do with a relationship with him but she will do it if the situations allow it to happen.
Some more info. OM says he will move out west in less than a year, sooner if his business with his friends isn't successful. He says something about starting a massage business with her to help her to 'achieve her dream' of working with someone she loves.
She's been asking him questions lately. She says it's so she can "get to know the man I love". She asked him what it was he loved about his ex wives. This is interesting because this is a question our counselor said we should be able to answer when we are divorced, because we should remember why we honor the mother or father of our children and because we DID love them and in any new relationship we have that person deserves to understand how it is we love someone.
I was surprised to hear that he had more than one wife, and was now finishing up with a girlfriend he has just dumped after 3 years. In some ways that's a good thing because it shows another weakness he has in relationships.
She asked him what he envisioned their relationship to be like if he moves out here. I haven't seen his response but it probably doesn't matter. It seems clear he is a needy person and will want to get into a real relationship with her.
I don't know why it isn't obvious to her that underneath it all he is needy. Probably because the 'in love' feeling masks that and also they haven't really spent any 'real world' time together under stress. It's so far a perfect relationship, no problems. It will be interesting to see how his ex-wife stories affect her. I don't need to hear them but she has GOT to be wondering how it is he has multiple ex wives, and problems with his recent GF.
So far he is saying the right things. He knows what her dreams are and is hooking himself into them. She is 'in love' so it all looks good to her.
Maybe she is the woman he really needs and he is the guy for her because of what they could share in their careers and spiritual lives. Maybe I have outlived my time with her and we need to move on. I feel that way right now but I think mostly it's because of her pursuit of OM and his pursuit of her.
If I listen to her friends who met him in Hawaii, they say that spiritually he is dark energy and feeds off others positives. He is basically a negative person but hides it under his 'player' personality.
When this all began our counselor told me that we had an 80% chance of working it out UNLESS a person with dark or light energy came into the picture. i.e. someone bad for her or someone good for her would interfere with our connection. I only see him as dark, but he is working her so well that she is falling more and more into this emotionally.
It's interesting that one of th ebooks I have on affairs says this abut Emotional affairs:
Quote: The person who was driven to find “that loving feeling” usually experiences a high degree of guilt and conflict. He/she is often married to a “good” person and the desire to “find that loving feeling” seems selfish (which it is) and immature (which it is). Intuitively (and this person usually has a great deal of intuition and sensitivity) it is known at another level that he/she is not on the right path.
A lot of these things seem to be true. I believe she does have some conflict as to whether or not she is doing the right things. She did say she felt 'guilty' and that some of her friends do not approve of or support her actions. And she knows I am a good person in spite of the bad things we went through. She knows she is hurting me a lot too. Yet she continues to pursue it, because of the 'loving feelings' which as we know are like a drug. His neediness will continue to drive him to pull on her, which she will take as him being totally in love with her.
This is from an article that describes the type of person the WAS will choose to 'fall in love' with
Quote: An affair with someone grossly inappropriate--someone younger or decades older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own--is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.
So much of this seems to be true for her. Up until the past week she was depressed because she couldn't talk to him all the time or see him or anything. I could see it in her and when I asked her about it she told me it was true. And D15 said she was disconnected from the family which fits the description too. And now given the things I have learned about him, he does seem to be someone with problems bigger than hers.
So I still see the 'textbook' type of affair it is. I am going to stop fighting it and be her supportive, nurturing friend.
Well, this afternoon I had a talk with W about how we could continue to live together. I had written her a poem that talks about HER spiritual journey as I see it. She said that her friends didn't think I would ever understand her feelings and that in the poem I was right on. She cried a little when saying that.
I came up with a list of questions and boundaries I needed to talk to her about so I knew what to do or not do while we are in this house.
She said that she was comitted to staying in the same house with me and the kids for a year unless something came up (like a relationship) that made it impossible for us to be in the house together. Remember, she is on a journey to 'find herself' but also 'found OM" right in the beginning.
I asked her why she was willing to stay in this situation, besides for the sake of the kids. She said it was for the stability. I asked her if she meant that if she needs something she knows I am there, and she said yes.
I read MF's thread '1 year of dbing' and one of the things he talked about is 'helping' the EA along and facilitating communications. So I told her I wasn't going to give her any grief if she needs to call OM or get online to chat with him. I also said I am changing our calling plan so we can make long distance calls for free on our cell phones at 7pm PST instead of 9pm PST. That will help her because OM lives on the east coast. The theory is that if they can talk more, then OM is more likely to expose his needyness or control issues sooner. And since you can't stop it anyway this makes you look like a supportive friend.
I talked about things like 'getting hugs' and other interactions we have in the house and she said 'are you trying to get back together with me?' Oops. So I said 'You know I don't want a divorce but I'm not trying to change that, I just want the ground rules for living here and to tell you what needs I Have going forward.
Well, she says 'why can't we just be present in the moments as they come?' Just live day by day.
Well, can't argue with that. It pretty much covers all the bases. Just be here, let her do whatever she is going to do and just be here.
Today was tolerable but I have the reminder that she would rather be with someone else who is 3,000 miles away right now and it hurts. And I am tired of hurting.
I recall that some of the successful DB'ers are the ones who just detach from W and take care of themselves. I am so tired of hurting, and thinking about her ability to treat me like I don't matter very much, she's not mean, I'm just not loved like before. I still sometimes have to pinch myself because it is so hard to believe that 2 months ago I had a loving wife. Now I have a wife who has a boyfriend / lover and wants a divorce. I never would have expected this from her either, she was very loyal and had integrity. As her friends said to me 'we are seeing a part of her we never knew existed'.
My kids hurt too. They have no idea about the affair so they really don't see the true depth of the hurt I have to endure. And they shouldn't have to either.
I truly need to not care about her but it's so hard. She's dropped some of her walls and is now being very nice and friendly, almost acting like we are married. But I know that underneath she is an emotional time bomb. If I say or do anything that MIGHT look like I think we are a couple again she puts me back in my place. And of course I see her call or e-mail OM daily so that reminder is there.
I guess after two months, and the fact that on XMas day she had to call OM, I should be very clear on our relationship. It's over and we live with each other as a security blanket, for her and for me. If OM actually lived around here she'd be with him all the time so that's a blessing that he doesn't. But he claims he will be moving here in the next several months and she can't wait to see what develops.
While I would like it to fade out before he can move, it doesn't look like it is fading right now. She still pursues him via e-mail or phone and his lame responses are sappy enough to make her think he's the one for her. It's all timing, she wanted to feel 'in love' and he is a needy person who needed someone to latch onto. They were in the right place at the right time. Classic EA.
I MUST detach and withdraw from the daily supportive role I have been playing. It's just not good for me. I need to take care of myself. Maybe it won't matter to her since she only cares about OM right now but it might make her wake up and see that I may be gone from her emotionally.
Who knows.
This is weird but I pulled some cards from a deck she has while she was in Hawaii. They are like tarot cards. The message I got was 'letting go' followed by 'miraculous recovery' followed by 'happily ever after'. They are supposed to represent 2 month spans of time so I guess I am still in the 'letting go' step. To me, letting go means giving up any hope that we will reconcile right now, or in the near future. Instead I just need to take care of me, and let her go to do whatever she is going to do. Just leave me out of it from now on.
We still talk sometimes about stuff going on with her and I am supportive of her. But she is talking more to others than to me because she doesn't think its right to have that relationship with me any more. Yet, I am the one who is tuned in to her feelings and state of mind better than anybody, and she LIVES with me. Talk about backwards.
My Counselor has all these beliefs about OM (a scumbag loser) and her (a lost soul right now) and gives me encouragement all the time. I just don't want to hurt any more.
So, somehow I'm going to 'go dark' while living here. Not sure how yet, I guess I'll be unavailable as much as I can, but be 'emotionally present' whenever we are together.
I can't do this any more, and I shouldn't do this any more. I'm letting her go. She's my roommate. I pay the bills and support the family. In the past few days she has gotten used to talking to me and having me around. but for the next 4 days she'll be out of town with the kids anyway so I'll be on my own.
But when she's back I need to keep in my own space, Love unconditionaly and take care of me. Whatever will happen will happen. I give up trying and am going to be selfish and take care of me, and the kids. I'm worth it and she doesn't want to care.
Wow, Frank, the description of likely OPs fits ow perfectly. Thanks for posting that.
In terms of going dark: you've probably read the sections on LRT and whe your spouse refuses to give up the A. Have you gone to any other threads that deal with this specifically and asked for advice from those with experience in this? I've really found that helpful nin my situation.
where would one find the other threads? The ones that have the WAS refusing to stop the affair and the LBS is dbing. I need help in this department too. thanks
This is actually in DR in the section on infidelity. The LRT thread is in the permanent posts in the newcomers section under "DB Power Threads"--there's a lot of other good stuff there as well. Hope this helps!
Today she went to visit her friend and took the kids. Her friend is supportive of her affair, after all she is 'in love' after being unhappy with a bad man.
Of course, her friend is not exactly a tower of power in the relationship world. 400 lbs, dated maybe one guy in the past 10 years, in her late 30's. A real professional. She was also part of the reason we almost divorced 6 years ago. After W and I reconciled then she did not talk W for a year because she didn't like me. She must feel vindicated now.
Anyway, they will be gone 4 days, but W will be back tomorrow to do some work, then go back to friends house.
We had a weird morning, W seemed ticked that I wasn't spending time with D10 since they would be leaving this morning for 4 days. I was originally mad she was telling me what to do but I did rethink it and thanked her for reminding me. Spent time playing video games with D10.
They finally got ready to leave and I helped them load the car and then W says to kids 'Say a special bye to dad since you won't see him till thursday'. D15 says "by daddy", and I walked to D10's side of the car to give her a big hug.
W is standing in front of the car waiting. As I walk by her she says something to me about me being able to get a lot done while they are gone, which she always says. I am standing but not facing her and say 'of course, it will be quiet'. She pauses, then turns to me and gives me a big hug in front of the girls. It wasn't real short, but not long either. I'm not sure if it was because she thought I was feeling needy (I was a little but trying to not show it).
Anyway, it felt good and she then left. Said she would call later with the kids.
So, I'm setting some goals.
-- Actually get a lot of work done. In the past I would be depressed and drink whenever they were gone. -- Build the mental attitude I need to really really detach. I am tired of the hurt and she is still 'in love' with OM so what's the point of any attachment right now except to HURT ME. -- Explore the ideas of what would I do if we did Divorce. I need to convince myself that I will be happy either way. -- Stop writing on the board and obsessing over all this as much as I do. It keeps it in my mind which I do NOT need anymore
I noticed that a lot of psople seem to reach a crossroads at 2 months of DB'ing. They seem to be ready to detach after taking all the emotional abuse they can. I think that's where I am.
Those are excellent goals. Detachment is a really good thing and yes it seems to take us a given amount of pain before we get there.
You will be happy either way. Your obviously putting a great deal of thought into this. You will grow from this immensely. I know that's not any consolation at this point, but it will be.
I would suggest you stop writing so much and just read. Read the positive posts and the negative ones also. I find that I learn from the positive posts and I see my mistakes in the negative ones allowing me to correct them easier.
Although my Wife is not having an affair I see a lot of the same as you do. They seem to have it all figured out even though what they have figured out makes no sense. Ignore it absurdity of it. It will get you nowhere.
I get all the same stuff. We married to young. yeah 30 is young huh. and all that crap.
I quite drinking and it has brought me a lot of clarity. I reccomend it.
