I just picked up on your full sitch. Very similar to mine - have a WAW (except that we are separated - I have an apartment not far from the family home). There is an OM that I flushed out at a counseling session back in Dec. W wants to stay friends - admits that I am her best friend but that we became roomates. She apologised the other day for "giving up" - perhaps a baby step but there is a lot of confusion on her part.
So I have been detaching as best I can. Being really friendly, etc. Acting as if. Going to pull some doosey 180's in the next month or so. I'm inspired by Hardheads posts that I know you had read and will start employing those strategies. In the end, my W I see wanted someone more in control of themselves. I wasn't that person. This OM might be (he's a cop if I understand right so probably all rough and tumble, blah, blah). I don't know for certain if it is just an EA or a PA at this point - working on NOT CARING. DB's for myself. One month in and I can already feel the difference in ME. WAW is seeing it to but fighting it a little. It is about patience.
I'll keep you posted on my sitch and certainly be watching yours. Hang in there.
E
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Just got done talking to a firend of mine on the east coast (I live in california, used to be from NY state). Told him I have decided to 'let go' and stop giving W the supportive environment she has had so far from me. His response 'About time, should have kiked the whore out' His wife: "Honey, I know you want her back, but she's crazy and you ned to protect your kids".
How many of us get talked down to by our friends because we are willing to 'let' our WAS have an affair because we believe it is something that can be overcome? This particular friend can't understand why I didn't kick her out when I found out she slept with OM. Now he's 'happy' that I am finally getting it.
His argument came down to these point:
A) We are crybabys who want to keep our spouse so bad we'll let them get away with murder so we won't lose them. Boo Hoo.
B) It's a 'west coast' thing. East coast people would boot a cheating spouse out and get a divorce right away.
C) Somehow, there is a huge amount of denial in us and we simply won't see that the cheating spouse is a loser and we should get rid of them, make them try to live with no money. teach them a lesson.
My argument of course is:
A) There is a lot more going on here than an affair. There are emotional issues that caused it and our love for the person dictates that we must at least try to help them through these issues.
What kind of reactions are YOU getting from people who love you about DB'ing?
Frank, your friends have never been in your shoes.
I confess my whole morals changed since I found out about H's escapades. I used to be like your friends: a guy cheats on you, even once, he is out!! However, once you are actually living it, it's not so easy. Few people in this planet cheat just out of boredom or because they want variety. There is usually a WHOLE lot more missing in the current R and we instinctively know this.
Not defending our Ss, here, mind you. I am just validating your position. Only you know what happened between you and your S. Not even we here at BB are entitled to push you one way or another. Dealing w/ betrayal + attachment is confusing enough.
BTW, answering your question... some friends of mine and family members don't even want to hear about it anymore. They think I have wasted enough time already.
The response you got from your friends is typical. Others always offer pretty much the same advice: Divorce! End it! Move on! Be done with her!
It's part that they have no other answer, it's part that divorce or "ending it" seems to be a "solution" popular in society nowadays. The missing factor is that they're not walking in your shoes. Certainly, chances are, if you were asked the day before your wedding what you would do if you found yourself in this sitch, you'd have said the same thing. But now, things are different, because your emotions are involved, and because you have a history with this person.
Friends may be well-meaning and on your side, but their advice... that can interfere with your goals.
Totally agree with caverna and NYS. I know that some of my family and friedns think I'm nuts, but they've never been in my place. I've said this before on my own thread and on others: I can always kick him out. I can always get a divorce. I won't always have the opportunity to work on my marriage and on myself like this. I'll give this road, the road less taken, a chance.
Please be careful around well-meaning friends who tell you to just move on. They've never stood where you are now. You are the only one who can decide what's right for you.
Some of the best advice here...I too know from experience that only you can decide how to proceed and what to do...it ain't over til YOU say it's over...friends and family are always looking out for you...the way they think you should live too. I know from day one I heard You can do better than him...be thankful...blah blah blah...but it was a decision that I made on my own...they don't live my life and I certainly as hell would not want to live theirs either. So live for you and decide for you.
I don't really waste my friends time about stuff...only in severe desperation will I call them. This is what this BB is for...because all of us understand on here. We come here and vent and it frees us a bit...but even so, with all the wisdom and experience here...you still have to live your own life...
Quote: Yeah, it just drives a wedge between my friends and I.
Then let it go...detach from your friends too. I had to. I took 2mos off from them...other than my best friend who is also a business partner with me. It was the best thing for me at the time. I went out and made new friends...and then slowly I let my old friends (our mutual friends) back into my life and I am still learning boundaries...that is an everday battle for me...
This is YOUR life, it is not a dress rehearsal...and when it's all said and done...you have to live with yourself and the decisions that you make.
I have to do my best to relate all this while it's still semi fresh in my mind. Fortunatly I did call a friend and debrief myself.
This is the most bizarre thing I have been through in DB'ing.
Quick Background: WAW and I had tough past few years, much of it due to my depression and drinking to avoid feelings.
She went to a retreat in Hawaii and met her 'soulmate' in the last 24 hours of the retreat. He was there with his GF. Came home happy to be back but 24 hours later she's wanting a divorce. She proceeds to pursue OM long distance (we are in L.A. he is in Connecticut). He's responsive, dumps his GF and she keeps writing e-mails and they talk on the phone for 20 minutes every other day. She arranges to go see him after 6 weeks of this. Just before she goes he doesn't call her that week but e-mails her. She's hurt and decides he's not 'the one' and goes anyway to bring 'closure'. PE happens and they are now 'totally in love'. This was dec 1st. Classic EA obsession and other teenage behavior since then. Read this thread for other musings about OM. Now on to the events of tonite.
W is a massage therapist and has Reikei / Spiritual healer type beliefs.
Please, realize that this story is strange and I am so confused. Also realize that W is a very normal woman, good mom and good person. Past couple days I have been 'gray', avoiding contact whenever possible trying to 'let go'. Mostly for my sake. She has been angry the past 2 days. Unknown to me is that she thinks I AM ANGRY since I have made myself unavailable. This is typical of our old relationship - she mirrors my emotions and reacts to them.
ok, the story.
At dinner table W says 'Someone sent me a psychic attack yesterday'. Me: 'what does that mean?'. W: 'it means that I got a pain in my abdomen and I felt it was coming from someone. I pushed it away with light energy and the pain went away'.
Now, I am not sure what to say or think. I am sitting in disbelief but I want to know what the ^&*^* she is talking about! Um, this is getting weird and she is being serious.
Me: 'Who would do something like that to you, and would know how to do it?' W: 'OM's (ex) girlfriend knows Reiki and could do this. I know she hates me'. (she in in CT, we are in CA)
I am still trying to grasp this whole exchange. She is dead serious and the look on her face is one of hurt and anger.
In a split second I decide to push the limits and say: 'Well, I can see why she might be upset, you and OM really screwed both of us (GF and I)'. (Whew!) She says nothing. I walk away from her so she can digest it and get my jacket to go for a walk. She then starts a tirade about how I get to come and go as I please and she doesn't. I am calm and tell her that I didn't know she felt that way, I would stay home, she could go for a walk. She doesn't want to go right now. ok. I say that I will be more aware in the future and not assume I can come and go.. She says 'well maybe that's just the way my life is going to be'.' I run out of answers and put my jacket away then go upstairs to my room to get away and read. I feel like the 'jab' about OM and her screwing GF and I has totally wrecked my DB'ing for today, but one thing I had decided today was to stop ignoring the affair and acting like it's OK.
So, I push it some more. I ask her "Do you care how (GF) feels at all about what has happened to her?"
W: No, I don't care about her. I met her in Hawaii and she is holding a lot of anger in her life. He was going to dump her anyway.
Me: Ok, do you care how your affair has hurt me?
W: Of course I do.
Me: Why?
W: because I have a relationship with you.
(note: Old W would have agonized about hurting a fly. Now she has helped to hurt this woman and could care less.)
I leave the room because I am disgusted.
5 minutes later she comes upstairs to my room and says: "I'm sorry I yelled at you" Me: "when did you yell?" W: "about the going out stuff". Me: "ok, i'm not upset about that".
W: "Well you seem angry with me since I came back from grandmas house yesterday" (This is when I began my detachment / letting go) Me: "I'm not mad I'm just hurting too much right now. I can only take so much of your Adulterous Affair and the other emotional stuff with the divorce and I have to retreat and rebuild my strength". I just feel disgusted, hurt, lonely and angry right now. I did tell her it goes against my morals.
From this point I am paraphrasing because the conversation got heated and I don't remember the exact words...
W: "You can't blame the divorce on my relationship! We were going to divorce at some point, it was just a matter of time. And I told you I wanted a divorce before I started any relationship with OM"
(note: while in Hawaii she called every day to say she missed me. When I picked her up at the airport she smiled a loving smile and hugged me. Yes, we had problems and I know she wanted life to change BUT for her to say that OM was NOT the reason she asked for D at this time is B.S. because she did NOT ask for it UNTIL she saw he was interested in her pursuing him.)
Me: "I don't agree with that. As soon as you came home you pursued him, and I know you had that INTENTION before you came home (she told me about the events in Hawaii). So don't try to tell me it all happened AFTER you said DIVORCE to me". You were already on the path.
W: Well you know it was bound to happen anyway!
Me: What? That you would eventually find someone to have an affair with and that would be the end of our marriage?
W: No, that we would get divorced! The OM has nothing to do with it! Do you want me to stop talking to him and proceed with the divorce??
Me: That's not going to happen. You won't drop him, so don't tell me you will.
W: I will, and it won't make a difference, we'll still get divorced.
Me: Nope, you're lying to me. You will not drop him. you don't want to. (Note: later she says she told me this to goad me, and apoligizes)
W: Well I like the way you blame everything on ME and you have no responsibility in this!
Me: Every day for the past two months I have punished myself for being weak, and hurting you and our relationship. If I could go back in time and change it I would. If I could pull the moon from the sky to make a difference I would. I hurt more than you imagine because it was my weaknesses than has cost me this. I loved you and I've lost everything. I have beat myself up better than anyone else could possibly do. And I am paying my penance, and I will for the rest of my life.
She starts to cry.
W: You have no idea how much it hurt me to see you be the way you were.
Me: Yes, I do. I am paying for it every day.
W: OM is NOT the cause of D, it was going to happen anyway.
Me: Why do you say that?
W: I don't know, maybe so I can convince myself...
Me: I've stayed out of your way for the past 2 months, I just can't stand here and take it forever. I need some time to transition myself to a more neutral emotional state while you pursue your affair. I know you're not going to end it like you are trying to tell me. You want it too bad.
W: Well, I really don't know what I'm going to do.
Me: What do you mean?
W: I just don't know what will happen.
Me: Well what do you want from me?
W: I just want to get through this, the divorce process. I want us to be friends, I want to go on with my life. I want to find someone who can work with my on my massage business and who has the same ideas I have about how to do it (Note: OM knows she wants to do this and has said that this is what he wants to do too! Surprised?)
She wants me to stay living here for the kids sake, to keep a stable environment. I ask her if she wants the stable environment for herself too. She says it's not important to her. She does say she still wants to go to couples counseling to work on 'healing' the hurt between us. (This is important because our counselor is trying to bring her back to reality).
We then discuss the hugs she has given me lately. I told her I felt that she was doing it because she thought I was needy, and that I am NOT. She said she thought I was. I also mentioned that I wasn't feeling any real emotion when she did. She then blames that on me because I'm "blocking" her. It's all me. Bull, I can tell when someone is not emotionally present and I tell her so but she won't hear it.
I end up explaining that I'm not mad at her, I just need some space to recover from the past few weeks (and to detach from her). She seems happier then since she doesn't think I am mad at her any more.
I tell her I don NOT want to have a relationship with her again. She says 'we have a relationship, we're friends'.
She gets up and gets her jacket and goes for a walk. She is only gone 10 minutes. Probably because OM is not available when she called him on her cell. I offer to watch a movie with her and she decides that would be nice. We watch the movie and it's pleasant, then we each go to our rooms to go to bed. She is in a much better mood.
But, she said earlier that she wasn't sleeping much lately. Hopefully she has something to think about tonite. something like 'did I really use OM as a way out of marriage?' She HAS to know she lied to herself. If she was going to divorce me she would NOT have been so pleasant and loving at the airport. She was unsure and he tipped the scales AFTER she was home and WHILE she was in a very emotional state. And, their relationship is very very weird. He's claiming he will move to CA in the next year now. Who does something like that?
I am not sure if this was a DB boo boo or what but I feel like I accomplished something by hitting her up on the Adultery so she couldn't deny it is wrong.
Plus, now that we've established that I am not angry with her, I can 'let go' and she won't think I'm angry. That's good because I don't need the negative feelings. I need her to miss interacting with me.
So, what just happend here? I have some ideas but I really need outside opinions! There's more but this is the main points. W is still intent on D and is still into OM I'm sure.
I'm inspired by Hardheads posts that I know you had read and will start employing those strategies. In the end, my W I see wanted someone more in control of themselves. I wasn't that person. This OM might be (he's a cop if I understand right so probably all rough and tumble, blah, blah). I don't know for certain if it is just an EA or a PA at this point - working on NOT CARING. DB's for myself. One month in and I can already feel the difference in ME. WAW is seeing it to but fighting it a little. It is about patience.