The slow walk home

[frank_D]

Well, she got online at about 4:30 and chatted with OM. Afterwards seemed much happier. How nice. Looks like the depression is over. Must be he was unavailable for a couple days and she was worried he was going away.

We went to her Dad's for dinner. She has a glass of wine and was Miss 'outgoing and friendly'. (Note: A couple weeks ago we were there for dinner and she told him about the D and her affair and told Stepmom how it was such a deep, moving love she has found ) It is starting to bug me, the shallowness I see in her.

I talked to Stepmom who I hadn't talked to since last dinner. She started telling me how she was still shocked that W told her all about how she met OM in Hawaii and felt the love and energy in every fiber of her body.

She told me how apalled she was that W was TELLING her this. She told me that 'of course the newness of the relationship is going to feel that way but it won't last and it's not morally right to even be DOING this. She said that she can't believe that our marriage wasn't salvagable. W told her she 'married too young' and she said to me 'so she thinks it's ok to ruin your kids lives? You WORK on your marriage no matter what!'

I was surprised and relieved that they didn't support her at all. Then I told her that most of her sane friends don't either and she only talks to her friends that are happy for her. She knew exactly which two they were as they are the most troubled ones.

Her dad is really hurt because W's brother had a divorce and they don't get to see their grandkids. Now that W is having an Affair and getting D her dad feels like a total failure.

I guess it really hit home. Other family are being hurt by this too. I thought it was just me.

It is just like the essay on romantic infidelity says

No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

We don't really see them a lot so it will have very little impact on W. She doesn't respect her dad even though he is a decent person these past 20 years I've known him. She has childhood issues with him.

Questions to DB'ers:

What should they do that would be helpful? Personally I think they should make it very clear that they think what she is doing is immoral and ask that she not come to visit, just me and the kids or something? Ideas?

I'm just disgusted with her. I don't want to come across as angry, but I need to just stop dealing with her right now. I don't even want to talk to her any more. She is so selfish and detached and thinks she is so much fun now and her life is going the way she wants it to go... woo hoo.

Meanwhile, my D's are hurt, her dad is hurt, I am hurt. I am thinking of telling her that she has succeeded in finally hurting her dad.

I can't keep blaming myself for my role in the MARRIAGE problems. I didn't MAKE her have an affair. She did it herself. I have made the changes needed to fix the marriage. she doesn't give a rats a$$. She was such a sweet and wonderful woman before.

Every day it's getting easier to let go and detach because she has a day where she is emotionally like her 'old self' but then she goes back to selfish mode for several days and I start to dislike her.

How do I DB this? I really don't want to talk to her, I don't like her the way she is. It's hard not to just say 'screw her, look at what kind of person she turned out to be' and start real divorce proceedings, then take the kids away and live on our own without her.

I know if you follow my threads I go back and forth between thinking she can be saved, to wanting nothing to do with her. I still have a hardtime dealing with what a piece of garbage OM is for 'dating' a married woman who was 'unhappy with her marriage'. How the F does he know that she was REALLY not able to salvage it? He has made sure she CAN'T salvage it now. Maggot.

Don't know what to do, I'm disgusted.

[spitfire23]

Hang in there, Frank. It's all a part of the rollercoaster ride. You have done a great job up to this point. Don't be so hard on yourself.

It's ok if you don't like your W right now. She's an alien. Try to remember that WAS and OP don't look at this sitch like they've "done" anything to hurt anyone else. They are in love. They are living their lives for themselves. They bury the guilt under that blanket of "I'm entitled to be happy. I'm not intentionally hurting anyone. I can't help it if they feel that way. It's my life. Blah, blah, blah"

It's ok that you are disgusted. I'm disgusted for you. I still think you've got half a chance to save this, if you still want to. Stay in the house. Keep your family together and try to ignore W's craziness.

Hope the day gets better.

Spitfire

[NYsurvivor]

What should they do that would be helpful? Personally I think they should make it very clear that they think what she is doing is immoral and ask that she not come to visit, just me and the kids or something? Ideas?

I think you should let them do whatever they think they should do.

She is so selfish and detached and thinks she is so much fun now and her life is going the way she wants it to go

That's the mode she's in.

Meanwhile, my D's are hurt, her dad is hurt, I am hurt. I am thinking of telling her that she has succeeded in finally hurting her dad.

WASs, being in a very selfish mode, do not see the devastation they create, and to see it means guilt. They deal with that guilt by denying it.

I can't keep blaming myself for my role in the MARRIAGE problems. I didn't MAKE her have an affair. She did it herself. I have made the changes needed to fix the marriage. she doesn't give a rats a$$.

You don't have to keep blaming yourself for your part in the marriage problems. You learn from that, and leave the faults behind. She may see the changes you've made in yourself so far, but just as it took time for her to get to become a WAS, it takes time for these things to turn around. She's built a wall against you. It won't come tumbling immediately now just because it's now that you've made the changes.

I know if you follow my threads I go back and forth between thinking she can be saved, to wanting nothing to do with her.

That's part of the rollercoaster.

I still have a hardtime dealing with what a piece of garbage OM is for 'dating' a married woman who was 'unhappy with her marriage'.

Yup, he saw a vulnerable woman and took advantage of that. Takes all types.

Don't know what to do, I'm disgusted.

It's obvious you have your ups and downs, and when you're down, this is the way you'll feel. Thoughts of what to do spring forth based on the emotions you're feeling, and you're not sure what to do. So the best thing to do is nothing. You can't act on your feelings, as your feelings will change and you may find yourself regretting actions taken. Additionally, you'd be changing courses every few days if you did that. So rather than get caught up with thinking of what to do on this micro-level, stay with the bigger picture, stay on the general overall track.

Stop feeding your mind images of the OM. That only torments you, and will influence your DBing. Give it more time, cultivate more patience. Telling her how she's hurt her dad won't draw her closer to you, that's her dad's business to take care of with her anyway. Don't dwell on how she used to be pre-A, that's only the good part you're thinking of. Consider the bad stuff that existed too, for a more realistic view. Focus more on yourself. And detach. Your wanting to tell her how she hurt her dad, your wanting to tell her parents what they ought to do, all that you have to let go of. You have to stop creating misery for yourself, Frank. Hope you feel better soon.

[hopefulmommy]

She told me how apalled she was that W was TELLING her this. She told me that 'of course the newness of the relationship is going to feel that way but it won't last and it's not morally right to even be DOING this. She said that she can't believe that our marriage wasn't salvagable. W told her she 'married too young' and she said to me 'so she thinks it's ok to ruin your kids lives? You WORK on your marriage no matter what!'

Just curious, I wasn't sure did stepmom tell your W she thought this?

We don't really see them a lot so it will have very little impact on W. She doesn't respect her dad even though he is a decent person these past 20 years I've known him. She has childhood issues with him.

You never know the impact, continually hearing that others do not approve of her selfish, immature behavior, eventually someone may get through to her.

Questions to DB'ers:

What should they do that would be helpful? Personally I think they should make it very clear that they think what she is doing is immoral and ask that she not come to visit, just me and the kids or something? Ideas?

Whatever they want. Do not put words in their mouth.

Meanwhile, my D's are hurt, her dad is hurt, I am hurt. I am thinking of telling her that she has succeeded in finally hurting her dad.

Careful, she may resent the comment thinking you are trying to make her feel guilty.

I know if you follow my threads I go back and forth between thinking she can be saved, to wanting nothing to do with her. I still have a hardtime dealing with what a piece of garbage OM is for 'dating' a married woman who was 'unhappy with her marriage'. How the F does he know that she was REALLY not able to salvage it? He has made sure she CAN'T salvage it now. Maggot.

I have to chime on with this. He is a maggot, it's crazy that our S don't see it that way - what kind of person would pursue a married man/woman? How could you ever trust that kind of person in a R? Early on I wanted to ask OW how would you feel if some single woman chased after your father and tried to steal him away from your mom??? With OM living 3000 miles away, for all anyone knows he has 2 or 3 women on the strings. He sounds like the type of person to do that.

Now that I've ranted...you HAVE TO PUT OM OUT OF YOUR MIND. As difficult as it is to let go, you have to or you will drive yourself crazy. I used wonder about OW, is she staying in town on weekends (grad student) to see H? I even drove by her apt. a few times to check...then I realized once I started to let go, I was much more peaceful. Even still it's difficult & I think they have fizzled out, but I cannot let myself go back down that road of desparation & despair.

[NYsurvivor]

what kind of person would pursue a married man/woman? How could you ever trust that kind of person in a R? Early on I wanted to ask OW how would you feel if some single woman chased after your father and tried to steal him away from your mom???

Nobody gets "stolen" nowadays, so we need to consider that our WASs were active, willing participants, rather than consider the OPs. Both act selfishly. There was a point in time when my ex's EA was discovered, after which she allegedly did earnestly want to "work" on the marriage, and cut off the OM (I was so informed by a third party much later on). OM's reaction, I was told, was that he went "ballistic" and tried to contact her any which way he could. Who's interests was the OM pursuing at that time? Truly not my ex's stated interest.

So, yes, they're together now, but again, what do you have? Some guy from her past who's been meeting her emotional needs, but yet, is someone who cheated himself on his relationship and encouraged her to cheat, and she being someone who showed him that she's capable of the same. What happens when in the normal course of a relationship things get difficult? People tend to do what's easiest for them, which is to replay ingrained behaviors, and since their innate behaviors tend toward selfishness, the old adage "If he/she cheated with you, he/she can cheat on you" comes to mind, and will probably come to both their minds too. Certainly, such selfish traits probably play out in other ways as well between them.

So, by way of that, this adage comes to mind: "The best revenge when losing a mate to another, is to let the OP have them." It comes down to just how much they can take before, once again, the bad outweighs the good.

[frank_D]

Spitfire23: It's ok that you are disgusted. I'm disgusted for you. I still think you've got half a chance to save this, if you still want to. Stay in the house. Keep your family together and try to ignore W's craziness.

Thanks for the support. You always seem to find something good from something I see as bad.

Saw my counselor today and told her all the stories. She still says 80% chance that I will pull this back together in 6 months or so. Sigh.

So, I'm going to relate some of the insights I got with her today. I know that these seem to be helpful to others and it helps me to write them somewhere too!

Regarding the new years eve 'disconnect' she thinks that the morning hug I gave W when she was hurting over her feelings for D15 and her dream, caused W to have a conflict - if she doesn't 'need me' then how come she gets emotional support from me and likes it? For that act of kindness she had to push me away. COnsider that a healthy person would have felt grateful for your support and been nicer to you.

She also thinks that OM seems to be unavailable during the holiday weekend. When W was all upset new years day and into monday but then perked up after Messaging with OM she said 'she was not getting her FIX every day and needed it. When she got her FIX she was ok then'.

By the way, she likes my name for him, 'maggot' 'lives off the flesh of others'.

For detachment, you have to really stop caring. don't let the other person get ANY reading on how you are feeling about THEM or what they are doing. Be indifferent and say NO a lot. Like if they ask you to go somewhere or to do something for them, say 'no, I'd rather not'. Don't assist or cooperate in anything they are doing that doesn't affect YOU, YOUR KIDS or anything related to both.

The idea is to make them truly see what life is like without you, which we see in LRT. I just happen to relate well to these explanations C gave me today.

C says in a couple weeks she will change her behavior in some way, as we have seen in other peoples sitch's.

BUT an important point: When they are EMOTIONALLY needy you have to make a choice as to whether or not to be there for them. The easiest test to think of, whether you are religious or not, is think "What Would Jesus Do?". Would he comfort the person as a human being would another human being, or let them stand in their pain so they may learn from it? When these things happen, you'll know what to do.

So of course I said 'I really think that if I do detach and stop caring, I won't care if she ever comes back to the marriage. I mean, how can I forgive her for what she's doing?'

Counselor: Over the years I've seen many of these situations where one has an affair and the other is extremely hurt by it.

Think about having a very lovable and loyal puppy who you never think of as having a mean or agressive bone in their body. But then a rabbit hops by and they run off in a mad dash to chase that rabbit. Nothing else matters to them! They have to catch the rabbit! Nothin you say will stop them and they don't know why they do it, they just DO. But, after the rabbit chase they go back to being 'normal' again.

Maybe they got hurt while chasing the rabbit and they need to be healed. Maybe they feel bad because they heard you calling them and they know what they did was 'bad'. Eventually though they stop chasing the rabbit and unless they got lost, they find their way home.

In 'letting go', when the LBS is able to stop needing the love and start giving love without any expectation of anything in return it opens the door to a new level of loving. Real Love. This kind of love can bring a marriage to a new, stronger place where you are with someone because you CHOOSE to GIVE love and they CHOOSE to GIVE you love and neither of you is there because you NEED them to GIVE YOU love. In that case their transgressions won't matter as much because your new relationship is based on you GIVING them love instead of NEEDING them to give you love.

And we can do that with out WAS eventually as we heal ourselves from NEEDING and begin to learn GIVING without receiving. Give freely to all those you meet, including WAS but keep your heart door closed against those who would TAKE.

I think I get it.

Mantra:

Be indifferent to their actions and needs.

Stop caring what will happen to them. They are making their life choices and they will reap the results.

Never tell them how you feel about anything related to THEM. If they ask, tell them you are doing what you need to do to move on and in my case, to be able to take care of the kids. Tell them you are not angry at them. Tell them NOTHING that will allow them to know for sure they still have you on a string.

Don't be helpful in any way except for things that benefit you, your kids or the family. Everything else benefits them, and they don't want you, remember? Just say "I'd rather not".

GIVE love to others without expectations. When you can do that with WAS and feel good about it, your life will change.

[hopefloats7]

frank,

beautiful post! I totally agree with you. I'm choosing to give love to H. even though he is not doing the same back to me. And I've stopped being so needy. I just can't do it anymore. I lost my self-respect.

What happens when in the normal course of a relationship things get difficult? People tend to do what's easiest for them, which is to replay ingrained behaviors, and since their innate behaviors tend toward selfishness, the old adage "If he/she cheated with you, he/she can cheat on you" comes to mind, and will probably come to both their minds too. Certainly, such selfish traits probably play out in other ways as well between them.
Amen, NYS.

[frank_D]

Well today was the first day to practice detachment.

Obviously last nites exchange about D10 and my aloofness / anger touched W. She asked me this morning "Do you want to go on a walk with me? You said it would be nice if we walked together sometimes." Hasn't asked since last week when she thought I hated her. Today she is bouncy and happy because of course she had IM'd with OM this morning! I'm so lucky that when she is in good terms with OM she is much more fun to be around! (note sarcasm)

I said OK even though I wasn't sure if I should have said no, as part of detachment. So we went for a power walk. As we start she tells me her brother is sending us $5k he owes us for paying his child support a few years ago. Says 'think we can put it away for D15 to buy a car in 6 months?'. I immediatly say "Nope, that is not financially prudent, we have to save money for the divorce and to support two households.'

She says 'oh, ok'. Not too sad though. She really seems to forget that DIVORCE costs everyone money and lowers everyones standard of living.

We walked and talked very little. I kept my answers to whatever she said short and to the point and tried to smile. It was basic smalltalk, mostly silence. After abut 20 minutes she asks me if I would rather walk alone because it seems like I need my space. I said 'no, if I didn't want to walk with you I would have said "no". It's much more enjoyable to walk with someone then to be alone'.

I smiled more when I talked and I made a few jokes when possible. I think I was able to get across that I didn't care if I was with her or not, but that I wasn't mad at her.

Of course she will take it as I am mad at her.

The rest of the walk I was friendly and coordial. It was hard because I wanted to be super nice so she would think I was fun to be with like I have been for the past couple months. I guess I don't want to be fun to be with, at least not with her. She doesn't deserve me the way I am now.

Overall, it was extremely superficial and dull. I KNOW she was only trying to see where I was at or she wouldn't have asked to walk together. So much of the walk all I could think about was how she has betrayed us all and what a whore she is that she would leave me for someone else while claiming she is 'finding herself'. I just WOULD NOT do that. Ever. I was thinking about how she had said a few times over the past 3 years that she was thinking she needed some time to find herself and live on her own but she wasn't able to DO IT till she found someone new to be involved with. What a coward.

And, I have since learned that you can grow in a marriage when you are an adult living in adult relationships.

I HOPE this is proper detachment and letting go. I am trying to not care without seeming angry or mean.

When we got home she went into her room and a phone call came for her. I brought it to her and she opened the door and was naked. All I could think about was how sexy she was now, lost 20 lbs, and how the ONLY person she would sleep with is OM. It's like, I supported her and made all the emotional investment, and did all the suffering and kept the houshold together while she let me suffer and withdrew from me, then someone ELSE get's her when she finally gets her act together.

Yeah, I know it's not helpng me to think that. And she hasn't been able to screw him for 5 weeks since he's far away. I'm sure they will arrange some way to get together in the next month because SHE wants it. She still has that week in february blocked out for him to come here but I don't know if it's going to work out. She told me the other day that she wasn't traveling anywhere for the next couple months and she would have to fabricate a story to be able to spend time with him if he came here.

Anyway, at this moment in time I am in so much pain I can't think straight. I better make sure I don't see her naked any more because it triggers these thoughts. I am so tired of the hurting, and the thin hope that she might decide to care again. Like so many of us I don't want to 'wait around' for her to 'get it'. If she's as stupid as her brother was she will never get it since her model in life is a mother who ran off and a father who ignored their problems.

It's so hard to not hate her, and I find myself doing it a lot lately. To me, your word and your integrity are the most important thing you have. She talks about 'living in her integrity' but doesn't see what she is doing as being outside that.

I sometimes think that my part in our relationship problems, depression, drinking to escape the hurt was living outside my integrity, and in a lot of ways it was. But it is a whole world of difference when you end your troubled marriage so you can chase someone else you just met.

I hate this. But the more I hurt and see her be so uncaring, the more I don't want to be around her. Yeah, in her world she is trying to be 'my friend' so I am supposed to be glad about that. We'll have a WONDERFUL divorce! It'll be a party! Kid's will be so much happier becaseu Mom is so much happier! Yayyy!

And, when OM moves out here eventually (he will, right?) then she will have that partner she has wanted to do all the things in life she couldn't do with me. The fact that he is a heavy smoker, divorced twice, would move away from his kids and at 39 years old hasn't done anything of value with his life doesn't matter. It'll be different with HER.

Why am I doing this again? Oh yeah, because I know she loves me still. It shows.

hey spitfire, I really need some strength from you!

[spitfire23]

Hi Frank,

Don't know what to tell you. She's an alien.

I think you did the right thing by taking the walk with her. Pointing out that you need to save $ for the divorce was good, too. I think they need to face a little reality now and then.

I'm starting to get a little aggravated by her "flashing tendancies". She knows exactly what she's doing. If she does it again, I would immediately turn around and walk away. She can come out and get the phone when she puts her robe on!

I'm probably not in the best frame of mind to be helping you right now. Just went through a semi-heated encounter with WAH regarding our finances and other stuff. Found out that he was pissed at me because I didn't tell him some info. I knew about his S27. He and his son have been estranged for years. Anyway, he really thought I was in the wrong and decided he wouldn't tell me he was living with OW because I didn't tell him about his son. LOL those 2 things are equal!
Bottom line, he felt betrayed that I didn't call him with the info. He still expects me to be his friend.??????
Don't think that will happen. More power to all of those out in DBLand that can pull that one off.


It's so hard to not hate her, and I find myself doing it a lot lately.


Don't try and deny these feeling to yourself. You need to feel them and then let them go.

IMHO I still think your W is waffling. I still think there is hope here for you and your family. Only you will know when you've had enough. If the most important thing to you is saving your M then hang in there.

Hope your day gets better.

Spitfire

[hopefloats7]

frank,

Good move, going on the walk. And I think you did fine, especially putting her in her place over that money. You were polite but to the point about it.

then someone ELSE get's her when she finally gets her act together.
frank, your wife believes she and OM were whales. I do not call this getting her act together. YOU on the other hand, have your act together, and you are right--she doesn't deserve you the way you are now.

I know how awful this is for you, especially since your wife does live at home. I think you have incredible strength. Keep focusing on the kids, they need you. They see their mom acting very oddly and they are upset. You be their rock. Let her continue IM'ing and such; this is going to get old, frank. Just keep being pleasant but detatched and you will make it.