The slow walk home

[SvenTheRed]

Frank,

I think it's because I understand how I got here now, and how 'out of my hands' it is. And I just don't see her and I together again when there are OM's out there who will offer the good feelings without the bad baggage. Yeah, they don't have all the good traits I have (when I'm not being hurtful like I was) but if you stick your hand in a fire and get burned you aren't going to do it again. She has had enough.

Deep realization I have made in the past couple days - during my low point (you a Gemini too?). We NEED to detach - for them and moreso for us.

I love the bag of feather's analogy you posted from your counseling session. Brilliant.

Time is needed for the WAS's wounds to heal and the emotional history to dissipate. This is also helped along by the LBS creating new positive moments in the interim, and that will also show consistency.

Right. Very important. I've seen softening in my W when I do this - from my posts earlier in the week. I need and I think you need to step up the GAL stuff - it helps keep us focused on generating NEW, POSITIVE, moments. For my W, she needs to see the actions, and PMA, and new found CONFIDENCE that I WILL find by detaching and GAL'g.

You and me are at *precisely* the same point in our DB journey I think. We will endure, as better people and someday as better spouses if the path we choose is different from our W's today. But, that doesn't mean those paths don't reconnect. But we MUST start down the path, for ourselves, our children and even in some way for our W's.

I'm ready for the first steps. You with me?

E

[Keyster43]

Frank,

Why is it that many women won't or don't INITIATE a divorce UNTIL they meet an OM? My wife didn't do it until then and we were 'getting along' pretty well.

If they did at least speak up with some real anger or hurt or something BEFORE then maybe you could actually fix the mariage?

I would think this is true of men as well as woman. Mnay men, wanting a D, wait until they find an OW before they file for D too. Wouldnt yo agree? I hear you though. In this respect I am lucky my W did not get an OM, or she has done a superb job of hidding it. Thats what has me worried. In your case, and it must be rough, the Om will be gone soon. I will bet that he is cheating on your W right now, or is planning to. He is 3,000 miles away, he needs action. Just try and forget about the OM. You are so much better than him anyway. Getting better every day too.

AK

[spitfire23]

Thanks Frank,

This gives me a lot to think about.

Spitfire

[frank_D]

Piglet2:
I understand your pain and disgust. If you can truly detach at this point and not allow her actions to deposit more of that, you'll be in a better place to work on the M when you get there. .... Just anything to distance yourself so the pain, anger and hatred don't consume you.

That's MY biggest problem. To detach I have to get angry and it comes across in my attitude. If I'm in a 'nice guy' place I want to hang around her and be nice, but then I get hurt or she sees me as needy. What the heck do I do to make it work for me so I am 'nice enough' when I do talk to her but not angry when I am detaching? That makes it really hard for me to create 'new, positive moments' with her.

And Why am I doing this again? She has made me the bad guy in our whole life. Even though our Counselor can show her how she failed to 'help' me when I was in my bad place, it was still MY BAD PLACE, not hers.

When she gave her listing of things about me she appreicated they were all centered around me taking care of the family, finances and being a hard worker and she was genuinly grateful for me. So, if I'm so great why does she focus only on the stuff that 'scared her'? I NEVER threatened her or hurt her in any way. Never.

She just doesn't care any more. I hate living with her while she plays this high school game.

Eric_S
You and me are at *precisely* the same point in our DB journey I think. We will endure, as better people and someday as better spouses if the path we choose is different from our W's today. But, that doesn't mean those paths don't reconnect. But we MUST start down the path, for ourselves, our children and even in some way for our W's.

I'm ready for the first steps. You with me?

Yeah, I know, I Know. We are in a similar place, at least My W CAN'T 'see' her OM, but she sure can EA all the time and obsess over him.

Eric, I don't think your history is as bad as ours was. Although eveyr time I look at it I just see a depressed husband who drank later at nite to get rid of his hurt. Not a guy who drank, got mean, yelled at the kids when he was drunk, pushed his wife around. Whenever she DID yell at me I felt like crap. Is this a man who is abusing his wife?

So Eric, what do we do?

And, I am a Scorpio. We want to win.

Keyster42
In your case, and it must be rough, the Om will be gone soon. I will bet that he is cheating on your W right now, or is planning to. He is 3,000 miles away, he needs action.

Man, this is the part I hate the most. EVERYBODY I know says exactly what you said. But I THINK he's really a loser and is getting emotional support from HER as well in his pathetic life. I REALLY believe he would move because of some loser mentality that he could 'start over'. I dunno. Am I nutS???

[Keyster43]

frank,
Here is a technique I have been using, not perfected yet so use at your own risk. Try to find something to pity your W for, anything will do. In your case pity her for having such a loser boyfreind. Chnage your self-pity into pity for your W and the loser. You are a winner. Once you have the feeling of pity you can start to detach from the sitch with compassion. Try it and let me know. Watch how dramtically you will transform yourself from hating your W to loving her again. This love will be with compassion and unconditional. Part of the word compassion is...passion. Your W will start to feel this and when she does things will change. This is what I am doing right now. I have pity for my W that she has to use Food Stamps and her parents let her. I can go on but I wont. You get the idea. Once I satrted doing this I was able to detach. I asked myself, do I want to go back to that? No way.

AK

[frank_D]

Try to find something to pity your W for, anything will do. In your case pity her for having such a loser boyfreind. Chnage your self-pity into pity for your W and the loser. You are a winner. Once you have the feeling of pity you can start to detach from the sitch with compassion. Try it and let me know. Watch how dramtically you will transform yourself from hating your W to loving her again. This love will be with compassion and unconditional. Part of the word compassion is...passion. Your W will start to feel this and when she does things will change.

Hey, I actually noticed a week or so ago when I was angry with her that I was also feeling sorry for her because she could be so much more with our family intact and working together with me than she would with 'maggot boy'. He's in her profession (massage) and has said he wants to work with her (her dream of having a partner who does what she does) but that doesn't mean jack since he is NOT in the level of personal development she is at and nowhere near where I am at, even when I was depressed!

When I had those thoughts I DID feel better then.

I think I'll make a list of things to feel sorry for her and see how it works for me. Maybe I'm at that point now where I CAN do that and include OM in the equation because he is a loser who is going to drag her down with him.

I still have to come up with a stopping method for when I think of her with him. I'm still shocked and betrayed that she could give her body to anyone else. Have to figure out how to block that one.

[Keyster43]

frank,
How about this. Before you met your W she had other boyfreinds didnt she? How do you deal with thinking about them? I will guess they dont even cross your mind, or like me they do, but it doesnt bother you. Maybe that will help. Bottom line is that he is not even worth the effort. Of course thats easy for me to say. Do whatever it takes.

AK

[SvenTheRed]

Hi Frank,

Eric, I don't think your history is as bad as ours was. Although eveyr time I look at it I just see a depressed husband who drank later at nite to get rid of his hurt. Not a guy who drank, got mean, yelled at the kids when he was drunk, pushed his wife around. Whenever she DID yell at me I felt like crap. Is this a man who is abusing his wife?

So Eric, what do we do

And, I am a Scorpio. We want to win.

Frank, it's probably all relative. I think we were both pushovers and drowned ourselves in different ways. I didn't drink, but became so involved with work due to the constant nagging, ctiticism, etc. I didn't know how to stand up for myself. What your W might be latched onto in the EA/PA is the excitement of it. I suspect that is where my W is. She too would call me a "great provider, father, etc., etc." but that we just became roomates. She's right. And the frustrating thing is that she as seen the changes, but cannot get past it. The OM's in our case are selling a bag of crap to them about how they would never "treat them like that", they A&V the hurt like we CANNOT - even if we do it as well as the OM does - which we do! In my sitch, my W will be happy for a little while - I still think this will be a flash in the pan. The OM for me is divorced too so it's clear to me he knows how to be successful in M. Right! Like you, being a good father and provider and MAKING the changes I have has NOBODY except I think one "new" (not the OM) friend in agreement with her. She is unfortunatly also surrounded by some people that are D'd and they seem to think everything is fine - It is superficial and BS. My hope therefore is that the "pressure" of having nobody on her side, the difficulty of getting down to see OM (she needs to go after work - middle of the night) and supporting herself on her own will cause her to start nagging, etc. the OM - it will happen. Just a matter of time. It's a pattern with her family and this is where I pity or sympathize. I get angry too because she'll split up a family figuring it out. But for me, this helps with the detachment. She NEEDs to see the other side of this. She needs (and WILL) see me moving on in the next couple days and weeks and she will lie to herself about liking it. And if I am there when the paths reconnect, I'm there, if not....I can sympathize again but know that I tried everything but have built a new and exciting life for myself.

Further insight to the W. Wrote it in my posts, but here is the pattern of hurt her family has put themselves throught. Her M&D split when she was 8 and it was ugly. I saw first hand that the feelings that still existed between her M&D up to the day that her D died. There was anger still there, but I could see it was covering real regret for what both had done and the love that was lost. Funny. Her sister got married and after about 7 years D (initiated by her sister). Her sister's ex has moved on and her sister has, sort of, with a bit of a loser. She has expressed to me several times, that she misses her ex, regrets what happen'd etc. and is now having a real HARD time moving on - financially and emotionally. Funny again? So now here comes my W - will it be third times a charm? Have to wait and see...

This is tough - I just posted my "journal" for yesterday and I am astounded how intertwined was the word I used on how are lives with our S's are. Detachment is a b'tch. Hardest thing any of us will be through. I like Keyster's suggestion and I have tried that from time to time as I have been getting angry lately.

Hope that helps....written as much for me too..

E

[frank_D]

frank,
How about this. Before you met your W she had other boyfreinds didnt she? How do you deal with thinking about them? I will guess they dont even cross your mind, or like me they do, but it doesnt bother you. Maybe that will help. Bottom line is that he is not even worth the effort. Of course thats easy for me to say. Do whatever it takes.

Well, old boyfriends are easier to deal with because they are not around. And with the exception of one of them she had very little good to say about them. The one she DID though she ended up going back to when she broke up with me for 9 months. She later told me he was a loser, divorced and a used car salesman now. She needed to get him out of her system then along with other things I guess. At the time she left I thought I'd never see her again but she showed up in my life 9 months later very much changed and humbled. We started dating again and eventually got married.

Yeah, the fact that HE is not worth the effort is true. It's her feelings towards him and away from me that hurt. BUt I do realize I give him too much power in my mind - he isn't really attracting her or even doing anything useful in her life. He is just a 'toy' that she wants to 'play with' because it feels good and lets her not have to deal with the reality of being a wife, mother and grown up.

The OM's in our case are selling a bag of crap to them about how they would never "treat them like that", they A&V the hurt like we CANNOT - even if we do it as well as the OM does - which we do! In my sitch, my W will be happy for a little while - I still think this will be a flash in the pan.

Yeah, the OM definatly A&V's her anger at me whenever possible. It's really his only security. I wouold think by now he would have a clue that she lives a whole lot better than him, has much better finanacial stability and because I db'd IMMEDIATLY he can't find anything bad to say about me since she has only been able to tell him that I have benn 'really good about this'. Kinda blows it for him to some extent, but the crap in therapy gives him ammunition against me.

He is very different than me, almost an exact opposite but has SOME of her interests, actually only one - massage. And he's not as good as she is. Doesn't live in the world of technology like I do and has never been capable of building a company from scratch as I have. This is a whole different type of person.

My fears come out when I think that maybe that kind of person is more suited to her since they are far less intense in their feelings and life choices. Her mom divorced her dad who was similar to me in that way, except he wasn't as willing to look at his own crap like I am. But then, W always was excited when things were moving for us in good ways so the 'intensity' is great - as long as it's making her feel happy.

I hope the 'flash in the pan' will be because we have something together that nobody else can give her - our family and our history together. It just remains to be seen if that is important enough to her.

She is unfortunatly also surrounded by some people that are D'd and they seem to think everything is fine - It is superficial and BS.

My W has two friends who are real problems. One of them is a 'spiritual counselor in training' and thinks she knows all the right things to do from a spiritual point of view. 'Find your path' 'live your truth' and all that wonderful crap. She doesn't have bad feelings towards me, and I actually helped her make a video to sell teaching a massage technique she made. So she owes me. BUT, she won't say anything BAD about what W is doing if asked. She will 'support her decisions if they bring her happiness and there are past life issues to be solved'. She has said as much to me in the past. So, I stopped talking to her over a month ago and she can no longer expect my help with her video work. The other friend has been around for about 12 years. She's extremely overweight (both friends area actually.. W is not), doesn't date, works in a day care center as an assistant director, has health problems and on and on. She is generally nice but never liked me when I was down. She was instrumental in our first breakup 6 years ago and wouldn't talk to W for a year when we got back together. The past few years we got along better but now she is ecstatic that W has found a 'real love' who will treat her so much better and isn't a problem to her like me.

If I really was a loser we wouldn't live in a nice house, have whatever we need to be comfortable and have good kids who are well balanced now would we? We'd be messed up, kids would be flunking out of school and doing drugs .. right?

It's a pattern with her family and this is where I pity or sympathize.

Her Dad and Mom divorced when she was 17. As her dad tells it, her mom gave him the 'I don't think I want to be married' story also. They went to counseling where probably neither one tried hard and things were ok for a while. About a year later she did it again so he (being the kind of guy he was - a bit controlling) cut up her credit cards and said 'go be on your own' so she left.
That was about the time I met W. Her mom dated some real 'interesting' guys and eventually married a wimpy (but decent) guy and moved to Seattle. Of course that meant W and her brother hardly saw her again.

Her dad married a woman about 3 years older than my W. But to his credit, he did make himself available to both his kids when possible but wasn't very good at listening sometimes so they rarely came to him. But he was there and at least they saw him. When he heard about our divorce he talked to me about his Ex and was teary eyed and you could tell it still hurt. It doesn't go away ever. When will people get it?

Her brother, who is a couple years younger married a neurotic woman and had 2 kids. He had been in a motorcycle accident years before and had problems with memory and focus that she KNEW about when she married him. Well eventually she and her mother (who was a real basket case) treated him like an idiot all the time. The sad part was that she got a degree in psychology and would tell W that she KNEW her mom was a negative influence and they needed to get away from her. None of his family (mom, dad, my W) made any effort to question why he never came to see them, and on the rare visits to his house would see how she belittled him and 'wondered' why he put up with it. No family support system there! His solution was to basically walk out on her one day after telling her in front of her whole famliy at a restaurant that he just was't going to be treated like that any more. Custody battle ensued and he now doesn't get to see his kids at all.

I get angry too because she'll split up a family figuring it out. But for me, this helps with the detachment. She NEEDs to see the other side of this. She needs (and WILL) see me moving on in the next couple days and weeks and she will lie to herself about liking it.

Yeah, she gave me the 'are you dating because if you are that would be great' line. I told her that wouldn't happen for a couple years because I know that I am not in an emotional place where I COULD be in a relationship. Of course, SHE is in that place isn't she? She couldn't be in a relationship with me, how could she have one that is healthy with someone else?

So I will begin to block HIM out of my thoughts and see HER as someone to pity because she feels the only way she can be loved is to chase losers instead of FIGHTING for a man she KNOWS is a winner. She said so herself that I was wonderful, etc. I pity her for having to see her life as a series of 'spiritual experiments' that if she messes one up, she'll get it right in another life, or if she finds 'the one' from a past life she can be happy with them now, even if their current life is less than optimal. Pity her because she thinks that running away has always been the option when you have problems that you can't solve. Instead of reaching out to those who can help you, like I eventually did on my own. I am almost done blaming myself as I have seen her hurt first hand, but also seen that SHE DID NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to deal with OUR (not just my) problems. It doesn't make me BLAME her but it does make me feel less guilty.

Right now she is on a marathon reading frenzy - she has been going through her 'collection' of spiritual books and re-reading them all, apparently 'looking' for something. I could tell her what is missing from her life if she asked me. But how do I get her to ask?

Here is my take on 'spirituality'. Being a person who lives mostly in my logical mind I see that there are many ways to view our world and the people in it. I see that there are people who have a knack for helping other people to 'feel better' when they are down. We all know someone like that (empaths and healers). There are also people who we trust to tell us what the 'right thing' to do is in almost any situation or predict how a situation will turn out and be right most of the time (intuitives).

There are many other types of 'gifts' that are discussed in the world of 'spirituality'. I see it as just that, 'gifts' we all possess that some people are better at than others. How we got there is a mystery but we DO have them. My particular gift is that of an intuitive first and a healer second. You can see that in my writing because I get a good sense of what someone is feeling in their posts and then say what I think about it with the focus on making it better. I also can look at someone and when I first meet them I can tell a lot about them, like are they trustworthy, honest, angry, etc. and that has helped me a lot in my business dealings.

W is a healer. She actually manifests it through her work in massage. When she massages someone she can seek out the exact muscles where the tension or anxiety you have is being held, and push it out. She is very good at this. I've had many massages but none from anyone who can find the real problem spots so easily.

So, I see spirituality and 'gifts' from a logical perspective. I just never saw them as anything 'magical', it's just the way some people 'are'.

The best thing happening right now is that she IS finally going to see our counselor for an individual session. That's what she really needs - it to be only about her and her issues. Our 'divorcing couples' sessions help but she realy needs this.

Ok, so detaching is my thing to do as I have been saying over and over. Using the 'pity' method and coming from a place of compassion resonates with me so I will start doing that. Thanks for all the input!

[Tim297181]

WOW!
That last post sure put alot of thoughts in my head because many of the issues discussed are what I am experiencing right now! The OM is just a "toy" that allows her to escape reality!
But my question is we are supposed to find out how our W loves the OM, so how can we help our W escape reality for awhile and find the same excitement with us?