Quote: You sound better, Frank--clearer and more resolved.
I think it's because I understand how I got here now, and how 'out of my hands' it is. And I just don't see her and I together again when there are OM's out there who will offer the good feelings without the bad baggage. Yeah, they don't have all the good traits I have (when I'm not being hurtful like I was) but if you stick your hand in a fire and get burned you aren't going to do it again. She has had enough.
Quote: Time is needed for the WAS's wounds to heal and the emotional history to dissipate. This is also helped along by the LBS creating new positive moments in the interim, and that will also show consistency.
Yes, and maybe that will mean we can at least not hate each other at that point. I just don't see it going beyond that, there are other things she wants out of life that we are not the same in. Sure, she could get those things in our relationship by doing them on her own but she thinks she can (and has) find someone who is 'just like her' in those goals. Of course OM has a lot of negatives but she ignores them for the positives.
Quote: And your happiness too. And perchance maybe really their real happiness doesn't lay in being with someone else, but in making the primary relationship the best one ever. Who's to say? I'd think making yourself genuinely into the better option, regardless of if she wants it or not, is a way of working on both your own happiness (foremost), and hers.
Yeah, it also means I'm doing the right thing for my kids and her by giving them the support and stability they have been lacking, even if W doesn't want the marriage.
D15 asked me to take her for a drive to 'get away' tonite. W seemed slightly hurt but trying not to show it.
We didn't talk much, just listened to music. She made a comment on W's mood which I pointed out was pretty good today. W also gave D15 one of her diaries that she wrote in when D15 was 2 years old. She said it had all kinds of stuff about her, and some things about how I was a great dad then but not around a lot because I had to work so hard. It's really great how much I am getting to know my daughters now. I only wish I could save their family from breaking apart.
Went for a walk and cried through most of it. I just couldn't get her hysterical sobbing in therapy out of my mind. I'm very empathetic and it was like I had taken her pain into myself and could feel how she felt. Counselor did say it was 'necessary' for me to 'bear witness' to her hurt. I can see why, it makes me VERY clear on what I need to do to be sure I don't hurt her (or any partner I may have in the future) because I can see what it does. I don't know if W sees what affect this has on me but at least I am not angry with her any more. Mostly sad.
I avoided W all day. When I did see her I was a little quiet but did stay upbeat. So she can't give me the 'passive-agressive' label today. Trying to 'let go' is hard. She only spoke to me about 5 times, for 5 minutes each time and only about kids stuff. Seems like she gets more concerned when she thinks I'm mad at her. She probably sees me down and is avoiding me, but I am at least acting neutral or upbeat so who knows.
One bad thought I'm having is that she is telling OM about the session and how she got in touch with these awful feelings that I gave her. Then he can be the hero and bad mouth me and reaffirm her decision to divorce.
Our counselor took every bad thing and connected it to an action or lack of action W had made during those times which was very helpful in weakening the effect of the negative memories. C has said that she is working towards showing W that SHE also played a role in all these events. She is also trying to replace the bad memories with good ones when she can. I'm lucky to have her.
frank_D, Sounds like the coaster-ride has been bumpy for you the past few days. You are doing a good job despite this. When I was early on in this process I had many of the same emotions you are experiencing now. The worst, most emotional day, since the bomb, occured when I saw my W, in court, for a visitation and RO modification hearing. I had not seen her for 2 months. Wow...was that heavy. She did not look at me the whole time in court, just a quick glance here and there. As she exited the court-room she gave me an "oh-well" look which broke me down. Luckily she left and did not see me lose it. It was also the day my criminal case was "continued without a finding" for 3 months. Man.. what a day. So hang in there Frank and trust your C, she is very good. Patience.
Yes, and maybe that will mean we can at least not hate each other at that point. I just don't see it going beyond that
You guys "hate" each other right now?
My ex had a list of things that had her wanting out of our relationship too, well, don't all WASs? It's been about a year now that I started seriously DBing, and though she's been living with the OM still, and we have nothing to tie us together, I did get a "I'm grateful that you're still in my life" back in October. In November, December and just a few days ago, she's invited me to meet up with her for lunch, even though I've been turning her down. Negative feelings can dissipate in time. Who knows what else can happen? What we see happening today does not portend the future.
That's the same type of thinking WASs have because of their "unhappiness". They see their current circumstances in a marriage as continuing on forever and start to dread the thought of their life forever being like it is today.
Imagine you're stuck in traffic, bumper to bumper, nothing's moving. As far ahead as you can see, there's nothing but a sea of cars. You start to figure this is going to take some time before it clears. But unknown to you, up ahead, just beyond the curve, traffic is already clearing. Were you in a helicopter up above, you'd see that, having a different perspective than you would as a driver. It's quite the same thing here, it's a matter of perception.
(BTW, to continue this analogy, as one of the drivers caught in the jam, what do you do while stuck? Fume and rage and get pissed that you're going to now run late, or listen to the radio, get some work done, call someone, sit back and relax... in other words, do what's best for you in the meantime.)
Sure, she could get those things in our relationship by doing them on her own but she thinks she can (and has) find someone who is 'just like her' in those goals. Of course OM has a lot of negatives but she ignores them for the positives.
Perhaps OM is more compatible, but perhaps it's more about that relationship still being in its "honeymoon" phase. At that stage, people in relationships tend to have blinders on overlooking the negative qualities and odd eccentricities of the other. That goes for both of them. It's like nature's way of ensuring the human race continues by feeding us endorphins to get us to bond. But in time, that effect wears off, and the negative qualities that we placed on the back burner come to the front, and the odd eccentricities we once loved now become the peeves we can't stand. The partner's best behavior becomes something they lower their guard on, and their one step over the boundary becomes increasingly more a few steps over the boundary, and real life pops in with its pressures and conflicts and bursts the fantasy balloon. You have two variables here, W and OM, it can happen to either or both of them. Then very often, who was originally considered to be "The One" becomes "That a$$hole. What did I ever see in him/her?" or "He/She wasn't Mr/Ms. Right. It wasn't meant to be."
She made a comment on W's mood which I pointed out was pretty good today.
Daughters need validation too.
One bad thought I'm having is that she is telling OM about the session and how she got in touch with these awful feelings that I gave her. Then he can be the hero and bad mouth me and reaffirm her decision to divorce.
To you, his bad mouthing you is a bad thought. To me, it's a good thought. Sometimes, having a new partner bad mouth the previous partner becomes a major turn off as their true colors show. If he's prone to doing that, maybe a little jealousy is at work in him. Perhaps that's something to consider... that any time you spend with W being positive, thoughtful, validative, etc., that if it affects her positively, even though she may not show it to you, should it be reported back to OM, maybe he'll step up his jealousy, making more snide comments and becoming increasingly uglier in her eyes? Perhaps that will manifest as his telling her "what to do" ("I think you're spending too much time with him"... "whadd'ya mean you're going over there?"... "You shouldn't be doing that"...), and she probably won't like that, it could push her away from him. Just a good thought to replace your bad thought with.
C has said that she is working towards showing W that SHE also played a role in all these events.
NY S, Such an excellent post, as always. I especially liked: BTW, to continue this analogy, as one of the drivers caught in the jam, what do you do while stuck? Fume and rage and get pissed that you're going to now run late, or listen to the radio, get some work done, call someone, sit back and relax... in other words, do what's best for you in the meantime.)
That's a great way to look at it.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Our counselor took every bad thing and connected it to an action or lack of action W had made during those times which was very helpful in weakening the effect of the negative memories.
Frank, could you elaborate on this with specific examples? I'm curious as it may help me in my own sitch.
Thanks
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Quote: Our counselor took every bad thing and connected it to an action or lack of action W had made during those times which was very helpful in weakening the effect of the negative memories
W says: He was always drinking every nite.
C: How did you deal with the Kids seeing their dad like this?
W: Well, he didn't drink till afte they went to bed...
C: So he tried to keep them from seeing him down like he was?
C: Did you ever really tell him how much you hurt, like you did today? Did you really lay it down and SHOW him your pain?
W: Yeah, I would tell him the next day sometimes but he didn't listen.
C: But you really didn't get out your real anger or hurt, you just 'told him'. Honey, your 'bag of feathers' was full of nothing but hurt because you never really expressed how you felt so even when you and he had GOOD things to share you had no room for them in your bag. So all you have is a bag of hurt and we need to empty it out one negative feather at a time.
W: Well a few months ago I got really mad and I shoved him and he fell over the coffee table behind him and I got all scared I might hurt him badly so I kept it in after that.
C: And you kept filling up that bag.
C: Did frank ever hurt you physically?
W: No, he never did. But he would tell me how I would be better off without him and he should be dead because he was no good to anybody. I would get scared he was going to hurt me or the kids.
C: Did he ever threaten to?
W: No, but sometimes when we argued he would get in my face and not let me walk away.
C: But he never hurt you physically?
W: No.
C: Tell me something else that bothers you that he did.
W: Sometimes he would buy things without asking me, like a car or a motorcycle or computer stuff. I really hated that because I was worried about money.
C: Did you tell him that?
W: No, I would act happy so he wouldn't feel bad.
C: Maybe it would be a good idea to agree that you want to be in on the approval of purchases over $1,000 then?
W: yes I would have liked that
C: Frank, did you ever get mad if she spent money without talking to you about it?
Me: no, we had money so it was not a big deal. I practically had to force her to buy anything nice. She seemed to think she didn't deserve it.
C: Did you ever take the kids and go somewhere when he was drinking?
W: Yes a few times (Note: This is simply not true. She would sometimes go over to a friends house with the kids to 'hang out' for the nite and have a sleepover. It was always a pleasant discussion with me about going, never a "I am leaving you with the kids till you get your act together!")
C: So you threatened that you and the kids would move out?
W: No, I didn't think I had anywhere to go. (contradiction)
C: Did you ever appreciate how hard he worked to provide you and the kids with a good life?
W: Not at first, it wasn't until someone told me how lucky I was that he could do all the things he can do that I started to appreciate him. He's a really great dad and has always worked hard to make sure we're ok.
C: Tell frank what you appreciate about him, what he does to support the family even when he was hurting.
W: (lists a bunch of things)
C: Frank, what is it that W has done with the family during these tough times that you appreciate?
Me: (list some things)
More stuff was said but the overall theme is 'she said or did this' and 'franks perception of your feelings was skewed because you were keeping it all in'. Or, for many 'bad things' there were good things to counteract them.
Thanks for posting your counselor's recommendation. I think they'll help me too! This post speaks to me too. Me and my H are farther along in this process and have been piecing. You've expressed so many of the feelings I had, but didnt deal with. The feeling of rejection and I've been here supporting him, yet he gives the good parts of him to OW. I agree with Sassy in that they didnt give the good parts because they don't have it together, but I understand this feeling so well. The suffering, the rejection, the withdrawal and how that feels. I have that anger and bitterness from those things happending too. If you do anything through this process, I hope you'll deal with these feeling and take care of yourself. I put myself out on a limb and kept giving without results until it sucked me dry emotionally. Now I wish I had detached more and had advice like your C gave. It's heartbreaking getting to piecing only to realize that there's a big hole where my heart used to be and a mountain of resentment to deal with.
So much of the walk all I could think about was how she has betrayed us all and what a whore she is that she would leave me for someone else while claiming she is 'finding herself'. I just WOULD NOT do that. Ever. I was thinking about how she had said a few times over the past 3 years that she was thinking she needed some time to find herself and live on her own but she wasn't able to DO IT till she found someone new to be involved with. What a coward. This isn't detachment. This is allowing her actions to hurt you by taking them personally. Think about what your C said about the dog chasing the rabbit. That is the point of view with detachment. I wish I had that point of view long ago and I wouldnt have made my H's actions so much about me.
I understand your pain and disgust. If you can truly detach at this point and not allow her actions to deposit more of that, you'll be in a better place to work on the M when you get there. Can you practice thought stopping? Can you get out and have some fun and not focus so much on your W right now? Just anything to distance yourself so the pain, anger and hatred don't consume you.
I wish I could give some helpful advice, unfortunately, I have arrived at the "I don't think I want to do this anymore with him" place myself.
NYsurvivor, That car in the traffic jam is great, and well put. Especially the perception part. Frank, the conv. with the C, you and W is very interesting.
