I feel strange commenting your situation since I am so new to mine but I will give it a try. I think her feeling enough to cry over the end of what you have may mean it's not the end. From all I have read it seems like the apathy and THEIR detachment is a worse thing than conflict and emotion towards you. The theory being that so long as they are engaged with you, then there is a chance to work through whatever is causing the bad feelings. Your case seems so much different than mine but I can see mine getting there and I don't know how I would feel. It seems to me, as an infant in this process, that it isn't over for you until you decide it is and that may have to be for your own good at some point. For me I don't think that time would come before I received D papers and I think it may last past the D itself. I am capable of taking a lot and obviously so are you. I think what defines most of us here is our inability to accept divorce when we know there are so many other things that are proven to at least help a relationship flourish while our spouses have taken the other path of unguided self discovery that seems perfectly sane to them and totally crazy to us. You continue to display the kind of courage and unbelievable love to this woman who may either be beyond deserving it or beyond accepting it but it is in your perseverance that you will probably gain the most personal strength. I know when I am having a bad day (like today) and then I pull out of it, it is my ability to do so that gives me renewed hope the next time I slip back down. In your case, each time you face your W and D's with the strength of your convictions and character intact, then you are still on the right road as far as I can tell. Like I said, she already said it was the end but until she actually makes it over, you get to decide when it really ends and I don't think that's just yet for you. Hang in and I really do hope you can get through this.
Something she said...five years ago...let's go back there...coming from a woman that sounds pretty specific to me...sorry I pick up on stuff like that, imagine...can you have the Therapist pick up on that and see where your W was going with it?
As for being financially responsible for her...I can understand how you feel, you are still attached...HOWEVER, if she makes the decision to live on her own, think things through before you make any promises that will be used against you in court. The laws aren't what they used to be...just because she gave birth to the children, doesn't mean that she is the best suited person to be the primary caretaker, and from what you have shared with us so far, I don't see that she is there. But she's emotionally tangled right now, you know her past with the children best.
Example, I sincerely doubt at this point in time that your Ds will want to live with mom. That would put them living with you. In California that would mean (God Bless California!) she would be paying YOU Child Support. Also you would probably keep your residence since you would be the Custodial parent. So, the ball I believe would be in your court.
You are not financially responsible for her unless you have some sort of agreement, document already in place. Offering stuff out of the goodness of your heart is one thing, your choice, make sure you can live with it...even if she was to remarry, still want to pay her health insurance? I didn't think so.
Sorry, just a bit of reality...she's acting on emotion right now and not the reality of the sitch and what she is doing to the family.
I agree with Lisa. Don't be a doormat. Seems like your W is probably not going to appreciate your generousity and kindness but just expect more of the same. Google "Common Divorce Mistakes". Tough love all the way to reality of her being able to live on her own financially.
Quote: Sassy: Something she said...five years ago...let's go back there...coming from a woman that sounds pretty specific to me...sorry I pick up on stuff like that, imagine...can you have the Therapist pick up on that and see where your W was going with it?
5 years ago was when I was first in my depression and drinking every nite. One nite she and I had a fight and she got hysterical and ran out of the house, then ended up at her girlfriends. (The kids were at their grandparents visiting so they did not witness this.) She called the police, claimed she was 'scared' of me and got a restriaining order. It was dropped a few days later with no issues. Later she told me she was sorry she did it but she was scared.
She filed for divorce, and I DB'd then and finally got myself together and we did end up living in the same house for economic reasons. Eventually she saw I was trying hard and we reconciled. About 3-4 months later I slowly went back to depression and drinking. At the time I wasn't on medicatins and I didn't realize it was my business environment that kept me down. And, I stopped DB'ing and didn't get a good counselor. That's what she's referring to. Usually she says she wished she had divorced then, this time she said she wished I had 'done something' then, which is a change.
I would take that comment about wishing I had 'done something' as her recognizing that I HAVE done something now, and the kids are attracted to me and seem to be rejecting her. What she doesn't know is that they reject her not so much because of her divorcing me, but because she is so hard to be around right now.
She does seem to be totally rejecting me. Her only friends she TALKS to will validate her hurt and anger, especially OM. If she talked to most of her other friends who are 'adults' they would paint a more hopeful picture.
I can see she is 'textbook' WAW and 'Emotional affair'. Her emotions go from really happy to incredibly hurt. The 'incredibly hurt' only started a couple weeks ago. I think that's when the girls started acting up.
I can of course relate to your Ws pain and hurt that she went through...however, having also been in her shoes, I would say to continue as you have been doing...if her heart is still open and I think it is...and you have truly gotten help for the drinking and depression...then she will see this...had I seen any of this from Wanker, I would have still been there for him...but when it was just another day another beer...well you just give up...I am sure it has been very hard for you too...but you truly do seem to be making ammends and you have been there for your family...a huge hug to you...you've come a long way...and I know sometimes I can read that you feel it would be best to give up...don't...continue with the therapy and let her see that you are serious.
Quote: I would say to continue as you have been doing...if her heart is still open and I think it is...and you have truly gotten help for the drinking and depression...then she will see this...
I am very serious about this and have gotten more help than I ever did. I do not drink. She even keeps a bottle of wine in the fridge that is opened and I think it's a 'test' to see if I drink it. One of her pet peeves was 'we can't keep any alcohol in the house or you'll drink it'. The wine is 3 weeks old. But, it doesn't matter to me because I simply don't care to drink any more. When I make a life choice like this I stick with it. In the past I didn't though, and I believe it was mostly because it was my 'security blanket' so I wouldn't have to feel bad. Plus, I was 'doing it' because she was nagging me, not because I WANTED to. Once it became CLEAR that I would lose my family, and had already lost myself, I took action. And she HAS seen it. She said so in counseling, and last nites argument where she said 'I wish YOU HAD DONE something 5 years ago' instead of her usual complaint of "I wish I HAD DIVORCED YOU 5 years ago." This is a change.
Quote:
... huge hug to you...you've come a long way...and I know sometimes I can read that you feel it would be best to give up...don't...continue with the therapy and let her see that you are serious.
And I do continue therapy. It's so hard though to see her hurt and know that I had something to do with it. And to keep working and hoping while she continues to get more determined, not less. I have resigned myself to knowing that at the very least, everything I do to help her heal her soul will be a step towards removing the dark blotch that is on mine for not being there for her. So she will have a decent life without me.
It's painful as he!! sitting in therapy and listening to her attacks aimed at me for basically not being there and abandoning her emotionally when all I can do is keep saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong". But I DO LOVE her enough to do that for her. She shouldn't have to carry that pain.
Our counselor told me that we are really compressing into several months, conversations that SHOULD have happened over the past several years. So much hurt has been stored up in her, and in me, that it's going to be a lot of time and work to release it and gain respect for each other - which we need whether we Divorce or not.
Lisa, I hope you are right , that she sees the changes and maybe, just maybe she will trust me and want it. Counselor says that she thinks that W sees this time as her 'chance' to get out, and if she doesn't take it now she'll never have the strength to do it later, since she doesn't think I will really stay 'changed'. Counselor says her 'goal' is to slowly remove the pain and anger aimed at me so that we're on an emotionally level playing field. Then, if there is any hint from W that maybe she could have done things differently and maybe this is the final chance to make it work she will change her mind. I hope thats right but there is so much to overcome.
I wish our WAS's could really see inside US and realize that we are the person they could be happy with - finally. That we have rediscovered ourselves and are ready to live right.
Just got back from individual counselor session. Talked with C a lot about issues with D15 and W. She says be careful - in her quest to hurt W, D15 is using things I have said to her out of context. That makes ME look bad which I can NOT have. So, when I got home I talked to W about a better way to deal with this stuff so we're a united front.
C thinks the way I handled the 'you have to pay to live here now because we are separated' was very good. Respectful and fair. And I gave many concessions when I could see she couldn't afford to live here at her present income level. But, C also says she DOES need to experience the consequences of getting a divorce before it actually happens. She says 'do it NOW rather than a year from now when it will be much harder'. Part of that will allow her to see just how much I HAVE DONE to support the family even while I was down and 'hurting her'. Once again causing her to re-evaluate her view of me and of our old relationship.
C also said that the change in words when talking about '5 years ago' is significant - like she now is angry because I DID NOT do what she needed and NOW SHE HAS TO DO THIS, like she has no choice because it's "too late". And 'THIS' is making the kids suffer, her suffer and me suffer. See how it's all my fault now? Before it was HER fault, i.e. "I should have divorced you 5 years ago".
The line where I told her that I trusted her with the life insurance if I die because she has never done anything to make me NOT trust her - she cried because she feels guilty because she HAS done something, she has OM. And no matter how she looks at it, she said DIVORCE to me AFTER she got him, not before. Guilt.
And, C thought I was respectful in all the things I said abut finances, and especially when I said 'I'm just trying to move on with my life'. Message: As you requested, Frank isn't going to take care of you anymore.
Overall counselor said we are compressing 5 years of communications that we SHOULD have been healthy enough to have, into several weeks and months. C's goal is to release or at least defuse the hurt in her and anger towards me so that at some point we are no longer in that anger phase. I'm already beyond it and beyond her in my growth because I have actually been working on myself and she hasn't.
Then, W could feel 'safe' changing her mind if she wanted to. She says she will continue to seek that one little pinhole of light that when she sees it, she can pull the elephant through and get W to face what REALLY is the root of how she acted for the past 6 years and what are all the sources of her hurt. I hope she can do this.
When I got home W told me that she had looked at her finances and the bills we had agreed to split and realized she would not be able to split expenses for the Girls. Things like clothing, School fees and lunch money. I hadn't thought of any of that since I knew the utilities would put her in a tight spot. She said as it is she doesn't have money to buy herself clothes.
So, she humbly asked me if I would pay all the school and kids clothing expenses since I make so much more money than she does. I said 'of course, it's not that important to me. I don't expect you to be financially able to pay for all these things right now, but to take a few months to get a job and stuff and work your way up.
Note: One thing she doesn't realize is that paying a mere $600 per month worth of utilities and other houshold bills plus her credit card bills and other things that come up which is about $1,200 a month is NOTHING compared to what renting an apartment, feeding and clothing yourself would cost. Especially if you wanted an Apt that had two rooms so the kids could visit.
And, if she did move out, she would have to pay ME child support too.
I really really hate doing this. She has never lived on her own and this is what she says she wants. In this one thing I have to stop taking care of her and let her do it herself. Sigh. At least she isn't looking at this as me being MEAN or SPITEFUL as I keep making concessions and telling her 'this is what we'll have to do when we have separate households anyway' and she agrees with me.
We talked a little about how to deal with D15 from now on and she made the comment that she can see why D15 likes to talk to me because I am her role model for what a good man should be like. I said, 'Yes, I can understand that. And I know now that I am a very good father'. She said, 'yes you are, you always had it in you'.
Thankfully W is seeing our counselor tomorrow for individual session. Hopefully there will be progress for her.
Quote: From Narnia....
"Is he safe? I feel rather nervous about meeting a lion."
"That you will, dearie, and no mistake," said Mrs. Beaver. "If there is anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they're either braver than most or else just silly."
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.
"Safe? said Mr. Beaver. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good."
To get respect, sometimes we need to be lions. And GOOD.
WOW...did I get all this right or what???? Hmmm...maybe I should write this book...
Frank, if you are sincere and her heart is not closed, which I do not think it is, then truly I think that you both stand a good chance through therapy...as I said had I seen any change or remorse, or anything positive...I would have stayed on for the long haul in a heartbeat.
Quote: Totallymessedup: I think her feeling enough to cry over the end of what you have may mean it's not the end. From all I have read it seems like the apathy and THEIR detachment is a worse thing than conflict and emotion towards you. The theory being that so long as they are engaged with you, then there is a chance to work through whatever is causing the bad feelings.
I think that is a good theory. Our counselor is doing her best to keep us engaged and talking about the bad feelings. Her goal being to get as much of them out of the way to where W might begin to see the good again. She sees OM as a distraction - a place W can go when she wants someone to give her positive feelings.
I hope this is all correct. It was this statement that took me by surprise last nite:
Quote: I wish you had done something 5 years ago so I wouldn't have to go through this now.
This is the first time she has indicated that the changes I made TODAY could have saved our marriage if they had been done 5 years ago.
IN the past 90 days she has said:
"I need to find myself, I can't be married any more"
"You and I have finished what we were meant to do together, time to move on"
"This was going to happen someday, I should have done this 5 years ago when I knew I wanted to"
"I met my soulmate, words cannot describe the feelings I have..."
And now... "I wish you had done something 5 years ago so I wouldn't have to go through this now.
Why that? I mean if it was 'inevitable' and she met her 'soul mate' then she could care LESS what I did or did not do 5 years ago that would have PREVENTED this from happening now, right? She would be more likely to say "Well, this is part of the process so I might as well get used to it" or something like that.
And, she had to tell me repeatedly that it is now 'too late'.
In the heat of emotion, we tend to say what we are really feeling.
Quote: I wish you had done something 5 years ago so I wouldn't have to go through this now.
This is a huge step in the right direction. Looks like the wall she built up is beginning to crumble, as is the pedastal she held OM upon. Hang in there & keep up the good work!
