Hanging on/The Long Haul #7

[optimist2004]

WCW-

You've tried so much. From so many different angles. I have been wondering something for a little while, but was afraid to post it...

I know you've thought about leaving the house somehow, but decided against it because of all the responsibility you have. Have you ever considered asking him to leave? Not within an ultimatum, "work with me here or pack your bags." Just saying, calmly and friendly, "You are obviously unhappy here, and this is getting really hard on me too. If you're waiting for me to give you permission to leave, you have it, maybe you will be more happy."

I'm not saying you should do this. I know some people think living with your WAS is better than not, no matter what the circumstances. But, I was just wondering what your thoughts on doing something like this are.

And...have you been able to continue with the touching/opennes tactic for the full 2 weeks, or did you end up backing off?

[WCW]

True, we're both very stubborn. Too stubborn to give up but don't know how to fix it? The last time I offered a back rub he said no. In fact, the last couple of times he said no.

I sure did put the couch in the barn. I don't know how I managed to get a heavy sleeper sofa out of the living room, around the corner, out the door, down the steps, out another door, and across the yard to the barn, all by myself, but I did. Anger and adrenalin, H sure got to me that day. When my sis was coming for a few days last October I had to get it back in the house so she didn't have to sleep on the floor. Needed help.

Have started work on the next big project, but need info from a lady to proceed, and haven't had any luck getting replies from her. I know H was supposed to be in contact with her based on our meeting last Sunday, so I left him a voice mail yesterday explaining my dilemna. Walla! he calls back a few hours later and says he happens to have a meeting with her in a little while. (Was that womans intuition or just good timing?) And he knows I needed stuff from her, so if he set up a meeting with her, why couldn't he just mention it and make it easy for me? Nah, there's the secret again. Can't leak what his schedule is, even if it would benefit both of us for the project I am doing that supports the organization he is Big Chief of. His problem, but it becomes my problem.

Last night I had lots of help to wrap up the assembly of a different project. H was one of the helpers. It was pretty cool so many folks showed up! made the job go much faster. I never heard from H for travel plans, it ended up he just showed up there. When we were done he got home before me, and when I walked in he asked if there was still chores to do. I said no, I had done them earlier. He made a comment about wondering if they had been done because I was in town with such light colored pants on. Funny, he noticed!!! We actually had a fair amount of good conversation about various things, and before we fell into uncomfortable silence I said good night and went to bed. Nope, no couch hogging either.

I remember having a conversation with H somewhere around 1 1/2 years ago, after things blew open, about sleeping together in the same bed, and if we should or why we do. At that time, even when he was hot with OWB, he said sleeping in the same bed wasn't a factor in our relationship. It wasn't until he got hurt and it was physically uncomfortable for him to sleep in our bed, he quit sleeping there. Gradually he recovered physically, but won't move back to the bedroom, prefers the floor or the couch. I miss how we used to sleep, close, cuddling, always some part of us touching, waking up together, talking about our day ahead, snuggling. That's the romantic memory. I don't miss the snoring that kept me awake quite often or woke me up, the missing covers and wake up shivering, and in the late stages the tension between us that kept both of us awake all night and we hardly slept at all, wondering why he got up so early or came to bed so late, and later found out it was so he could have those first thing in the morning and last thing of the day phone calls. So, I am truly mixed about if I do want him to come and sleep in our bed the way things are. I certainly wouldn't kick him out if he did, but I wonder if being that close would just be so much tension that we'd never sleep during the night. For me, I know that I laid awake wondering if H would touch me, or if I should touch him, if a touch would lead to sex or ML, what was he thinking? did he want me to touch him? what if he touched me? oh my gosh, he did touch me! did he mean to touch me? or did he just bump me? how is he breathing? is he breathing heavy? does it mean he's thinking about sex? no, he's got his arms acrossed his chest, definitely doesn't want a touch.... So, for now, I don't like sleeping separate for all this time, but at least I can function during the day because I do get some sleep. I hope it's best for hubby too, since it's his decision anyway. Should I even think about asking or trying to have a normal conversation about him sleeping in our bed? I thought about that last week, when he didn't feel good, if some good nights sleep in a comfortable bed would help him rest better. I thought about bringing it up, but chickened out. We could agree that sleeping in the same bed doesn't mean sex, would that take the tension out of it? I don't know, let sleeping dogs lay. Sure am bouncing around here, rambling thoughts. I'll just leave it that if H wants to sleep in our bed, he knows he's welcome, and I'm not pursuing the issue.

Had this reminder this morning of how different we think (no Wllowwlk, I haven't started rereading Mars/Venus yet). I was up early and worked on the puter, I suppose that woke H up but I can't help that he's chosen to sleep in the room where the computer is. After my shower and I was out of the bathroom, H took a shower. First time all week he started a shower while I was still home. So my thoughts are he's either got plans for a full day, or back to a routine, or the ice is melting, or what other sign is this? He walked out just as I was ready to leave (with shirt only half snapped, lots of chest hair showing, oh my!) and talked about the price of diesel fuel. Funny, I'm full of 'what does this mean' while he's thinking yesterdays fuel tank price.

[WCW]

Hi opti, don't be afraid! please! say what's on your mind.

I've probably done more along the ultimatum lines than just ask, but have done neither or tried to approach the subject recently. I am avoiding dealing with it. Today, maybe this whole week, I am becoming more aware of the fact that the way we are is becoming comfortable. Just roommates. It sucks, it's not how I want to be married. But what is on the horizon for me if I push for a change? What is waiting for ME? Financial disaster, worse than the current situation, and that means losing the things that I have left in my life that I do enjoy, or get joy from. Am I settling for an unemotional loveless relationship and marriage for financial reasons? I suppose. At least for a while, or until H changes it, and in the meanwhile I work on the financial part and try to climb out this hole and work on ways to afford what I want to keep from all of this.

H would probably scoff at me for thinking he needed my 'permission' to leave. He's certainly made no bones and made it clear about leaving if that is what he wants. But he hasn't, and maybe his reasons are the same as mine. Financial, and just some little hope that this will still work.

Touching, a little more, not a lot. Right now, just passing or being within a few inches of each other feels almost too close for me. I struggle with if I really want to reopen those feelings, or leave them locked up so I don't get so emotional. Sure is easier to deal with this without my emotions falling all over the place. I know I should be trying, touching, caring, but I don't have the drive right now.

I'm enjoying this feeling of peace while it lasts, I'm sure it's bound to change. Where's the sun today?

[Again!]

Ok your both too stubbourn to give up, but don't know what to fix.
Have you thought about counselling?
I know that every DB tells you that you can do it w/o, that it can hurt, but heck, somethings got to give.

[WCW]

Why? why does it have to change now? why not work on what I can (money and me), and let the rest up to H?

I did research some counselors this week. My insurance stuff all just recently changed and I'm getting a feel for it again. I want to find one like Becca, doesn't charge anymore than the insurance pays for.

[Again!]

I am not saying anything has to change. There is a post
slow and steady wins the race.

BTW, I recognized the stubbourn from my memory of packing up everything my H owned and moving it out for him, which included a couch which was in are bedroom. Had to get the legs off to get it out the door, round the corner, not sure how I did it, but then down the stairs was easy, adrelaline is a wonderful thing. Just wish we could harnass it.

[Becca1975]

WCW, mine was a referral through Lutheran Community Services. She is with Lifespan counseling services. You might check for either of those organizations in your community.

[hopefulmommy]

I've listened to Dave Ramsey's radio show & he mentions all his endorsed local providers...including Vow Savers - he says they are christian based counselors that he reccomends on his website...I haven't checked it out though.

I found my C in the yellow pages and lucked into a decent one. My H doesn't have ins. while in college, and my ins. does not pay for M Counseling, just indv. C. C billed my ins. for 1 indv. session and charged my H about $20 - the difference btw his fee for MC and what the ins. would reimburse. MC didn't last long for us though....back in Sept. C said we weren't candidates for MC b/c H wasn't committed to working on the M and then H moved out.

I'm sure there are C out there who are willing to work with your financial sitch...as they are in the profession of helping people.

I apologize b/c don't know the background of your sitch. I can tell you how I have responsed to my H, although we don't live together. I basically tried to respond to H with how he acted towards me. When he wasn't open to talking, I'd try to back off and keep the conversation to a minimun. If he seemed to want space, I'd try to give it to him. When he was chatty, I'd be in return. He slowly has come around, it took him some time to open back up. We are not intimate yet, but hopefully that will change soon . His b-day is mon. and I'm going to offer him a present . I don't know if you have already tried this type of approach or if it would be appropriate for you at this time. Why you think your H is so withdrawn from you at this time?

[WCW]

I don't know how to explain how I am feeling these last few days. Maybe I've just lost the desparation I've felt for so many months/years. Is that necessarily bad? It could also be just a phase of the moon or something, I don't know. Do I want it to be like this? NO. Can I change it? NO. I can't change a thing about my marriage, only about me. And I am, maybe this is detachment. Maybe I am finally getting it. Mystery? GAL? probably not an A student, but I am learning.

Why you think your H is so withdrawn from you at this time?

The sarastic answer is because he turned away from me and went outside the marriage to fill his needs and his desires. He strayed, and refuses to come back. Whether that EA/PA is still ongoing, or it's his guilt, or his emotions of disrespect to me and our marriage, or all of it combined. Another answer is that he lives in the past, and wants to keep on the surface anything bad or wrong or hurtful that I've ever done or said. He keeps it fresh, so he can keep his walls up. That could be just what happened to me this week, when I had that memory of how he bragged on himself and never a mention of the wife or support or the fact the I existed, it filled me with a significant reminder of the sadness and anguish I have been filled with for so long with this marriage. I have the romantic memories, the fun fulled times, the goals and accomplishments we've managed together, because that is how I choose to remember. He doesn't, he chooses to wallow in pain and regret. This week it is rubbing off on me, I am mirroring him.

But all is not lost! In two days I had an unheard of FOUR calls from H, that's a record, more calls than the whole young year so far. True that 2 were in return to my calls needing answers to some deadlines. The other two were his own initiation. I suppose I should be playing the game, don't answer, don't be available. But on the rare occassions that he does call I don't feel a need to piss him off by playing a game of not answering. That's his game, I'm not playing by his rules, or DB rules. My calls to him aren't just to chitchat, it is business and I need a response. If I want to chitchat, I will wait until I see him in person and try to use chitchat to fill the empty silence between us.

Last night H told me that he would be gone all day today, a meeting. He said he was not planning to be home to make it to the post season party tonight, and asked if I was going. I said no. I didn't tell him of any other plans I have.

Today I feel sad and lonely because the meeting H went to is one that I normally would have gone along, mostly just to socialize and see the guys and learn and have a good time. I didn't feel any clue from H that I would be welcome to join him, although the other guys always welcome me and are very nice and say nice things - maybe H didn't want to hear that. I also didn't want to spend 4 hours driving time with him. I feel disappointed for not seeing all the guys and the socializing, but I do feel relief and not bad at all for missing the anxiety and tension we would have during the 'just us' times. Could it be that's my clue? LESS time together makes the time we are together have less tension. We need a buffer, time together is tough unless other people are around. Then we can be okay.

Probably a few other little things or baby steps, like I brushed his back with my fingertips last night on my way past him to go to bed, he actually responded with good night. He did all his chores this morning before he left, he didn't just leave it up to me. I thought that was nice, but I did not tell him thanks for doing his job.

I'm not done, I still intend to wholeheartedly continue to piece this mess back together. But with less intensity than I've been going at it, I'm worn out after all this time, and will take a little break from the inferno of my emotions. After all, I'm not going anywhere, I am hanging on for the long haul.

[always_14]

Hi there. I'm new to this forum, but have been "lurking" for some time--reading threads really gives me tips and PMA. Feeling a down today (full moon, the weekend of Friday 13th, who knows??) and logged on for fellowship and strength.

I wanted to reply to you, WCW, because, though you too have your down days, I really admire your amazing strength in always finding the silver lining and always having hope, for always thinking things through. I know it sounds corny, but it's a real inspiration and reminder.

SO--thought it might be nice for you to hear from an admirer as you are enjoying your alone time today (and YES, that is a GOOD thing in times of tension!!).

I too am alone, H left for the day, after a mutually teary morning. I feel out of sorts, but am trying to see to clearer days.

I'm glad that you have finally come to a place of peace. I had that moment this week. I think it might be detachment, as it was peaceful and without resentment (I was fearful that I might withdraw and be annoyed and forget to reach out and be available, which was a change I needed to make in the first place). It's definately a practiced art! Glad you are there. It's nice to not analyze everything, to give and not expect and when you do, WOW!

Glad to see that you have lots of baby steps. I can tell you one thing, my H is still at home too, and I have told him numerous times (most likely AGAINST all rules) that I want him to be happy, and am understanding if he needs to leave, or I can do that for him. The last thing I want is for him to be with me out of obligation, etc. Space is good, and I am willing to have that. SO...I think your H gets the same point, that you have given him so much space that you don't expect him to stay, and if he is, it means that he WANTS to. Kind of hard to remember when we're focused on feeling insecure (normal with our situations).

OF COURSE, that is not to say that one day YOU might have hit the line. Until that day comes, know in your heart that each night your H comes home to sleep on his couch and not elsewhere, with you is where he wants to be. It's not perfect, lots of confusion, but not wanting to leave.

I know you said that he might feel social pressures to staying, etc. I don't think that is the case. It's hard to believe (because I feel the same), but really, when you're ready to leave, nothing can hold you back.

Change is so painfully sloooooowwwww. Ugh. Hang in there! Some days you want to ring their necks. But then I remember, that my H must have felt the same way on so many occasions, and was patient. So, I can do the same. It hurts, it's hard, and it's OK that it is--I guess it's the process to UNconditional love. :-)