What has amazed me throughout this process is how eager we all are to jump at the slightest hint of affection on their part. I think that's part of my problem, but I'm new to this. As soon as my wife gives me a sign, my expectations jump exponentially. I got to stop!
In any event Frank, it seems that somewhere you struck an emotional chord with W. Maybe a twinge of jealousy? Who knows what drives them but I hope it keeps working for you.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: What has amazed me throughout this process is how eager we all are to jump at the slightest hint of affection on their part. I think that's part of my problem, but I'm new to this. As soon as my wife gives me a sign, my expectations jump exponentially. I got to stop!
In any event Frank, it seems that somewhere you struck an emotional chord with W. Maybe a twinge of jealousy? Who knows what drives them but I hope it keeps working for you.
Keep going Frank good for you! You ahve helped me out alot with your comments so I am glad to see a positive baby step for you! We all need that affection! It is like a drug addicition and we need our fix! When we get a little we want more, and when we don't get any we get depressed! Maybe we should all start a program "How to be independent without affection"?
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Quote: . No matter how much we detach, go dark, move on or any of the other euphemisms we use we still fall prey to the emotions we try to bury. Most of the time when I read these posts, I feel better, today I feel worse. Dunno why. I guess it's the reminder that it may not get better, at least anytime soon.
Sure, and it may get 'worse'. But what is 'better' and what is 'worse'? For me 'better' is I get out of the 'needy' phase of MY life and eventually fall in love wiht a woman who isn't dependant on me for their self esteem. I do not know who that woman is yet. It may be my wife. So ask YOURSELF honestly, "what does 'better' really look like?" Is it you and your wife 'getting back together' or is it you in a relationship with a woman who is emotionally together, loves you implicitly and you love her and neither of you NEED each other to live but instead build a loving interdependence on each other? Ask your self if your wife is CURRENTLY that person for you, and are YOU that person for ANYBODY right now? Or do YOU still have a ways to go?
Quote: What has amazed me throughout this process is how eager we all are to jump at the slightest hint of affection on their part. I think that's part of my problem, but I'm new to this. As soon as my wife gives me a sign, my expectations jump exponentially. I got to stop!
Yes, we do. I appreciated the ruffled hair gesture last nite and it made me feel 'good'. It showed me that she is at least warming up to me as a human being. I did not stay up all nite analyzing it, or write in my journal "things a are better now!" or anything like that. I just felt good for a few minutes. I look at stuff like that as momentary lapses of sanity for her. And, to be truly honest I actually spent some time reminiscing about the old GF, she was actually very independent and did not need me at all but chose to be with me. And she was damn cute too! She moved away for a job and we ended our relationship after about 3 months of being apart but seeing each other ever other weekend. Nothing like my W.
Interestingly, I was talking to my best friend last nite and he had first met my wife at his wedding 13 years ago. He didn't tell me then but said today that he hadn't thought she was the type of girl for me. All my previous GF's had been pretty tough and independent and she was a little clingy. But he never said that to me then because he figured he didn't know her very well.
Quote: Maybe we should all start a program "How to be independent without affection"?
... from someone whom we have become dependent on for it...
We can get affection from our kids, our friends, our parents, our brothers and sisters. I hold my D10 at least once a day for a minute or two. I make sure I relax and breath slowly and deeply so I can feel and give love. It energizes me and I know it makes her feel secure.
We're ADDICTED to getting it from our S. It just takes time. It takes at least 90 days to begin to break your body of a physical addiction...
Quote: Sure, and it may get 'worse'. But what is 'better' and what is 'worse'? For me 'better' is I get out of the 'needy' phase of MY life and eventually fall in love wiht a woman who isn't dependant on me for their self esteem. I do not know who that woman is yet. It may be my wife. So ask YOURSELF honestly, "what does 'better' really look like?" Is it you and your wife 'getting back together' or is it you in a relationship with a woman who is emotionally together, loves you implicitly and you love her and neither of you NEED each other to live but instead build a loving interdependence on each other? Ask your self if your wife is CURRENTLY that person for you, and are YOU that person for ANYBODY right now? Or do YOU still have a ways to go?
Another bit of great insight from you Frank. Thanks. I KNOW I'm not that person right now but I am closer to it than I ever have been before and I'm committed to getting all the way there. I also know she's not that person either, which is why she's "exploring", "needing space" and contemplating ending our marriage.
Quote: Maybe we should all start a program "How to be independent without affection"?
... from someone whom we have become dependent on for it...
We can get affection from our kids, our friends, our parents, our brothers and sisters. I hold my D10 at least once a day for a minute or two. I make sure I relax and breath slowly and deeply so I can feel and give love. It energizes me and I know it makes her feel secure.
We're ADDICTED to getting it from our S. It just takes time. It takes at least 90 days to begin to break your body of a physical addiction...
I agree my kids who are 2 and 4 give me so much! Each nite I take that 1/2 at bedtime to really slow down and really see my purpose in life, and that is to be the best role model and example to my kids! They love us unconditionally and I want to ensure I give that back to them!
On the addiction front...I want the affection, I don't want to remove it, I want to learn to appreciate it when it is there, how to recipocate, and not be dependent on it! Is that possible, or do we have to go through the withdrawl?
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
If it weren't for the unconditional love I get from my threee girls, I think I would be insane by now.
I am absolutely going through affection withdrawal. I think we have to go through this step before we can learn to appreciate it without actually depending on it. We depend on it now because of the sitch...its a way of looking for validation I suppose.
Hmm, slight mistake on my part, just talked to W on the phone. I had to call her earlier to ask a question and all week she's been initiating the ILY's. She didn't on the previous couple calls. I had to just call and stupid me, I just blurted out the ILY at the end of the call. Okay, I have to re-read my goals for the weekend....
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
The money situation you descibed echos similar in my situation. I have told WAH I expect him to pay 1/2 of all our shared expenses if he is going to remain in our home. After his 1/2, in addition to his other financial obligations, he has nothing left to live off of... can't even pay for his or his half of S3's food (which I of course am "generously" ponying up for him). He was none to happy about this, as it showed it would be cutting into his lifestyle, and now things are more dire for him after his DUI.
Anyways, the one thing I question in all this is whether or not, by showing WAH his poor financial situation, if I am creating an environment in which he feels he is forced to stay. WAH knows now that if he leaves, he cannot afford a decent living environment for S3, and thus, cannot expect to do shared custody. So am I forcing him to stay for S3's sake, but not really for the R's sake? If he stays, will he only make a half-a$$ed attempt at making us work since he thinks he has no other options?
When I think these things, it makes me question whether or not pointing out his financial situation is a good thing to do. I certainly don't want to be with someone who feels he has no other option other than to stick things out with me for S3's sake. I want someone who wants to be with me, regardless of whether or not he has all the money in the world, or none. But I also feel its a delicate line to balance; I need to protect myself financially in case things do not work out, and for my own self-respect, I do not want to continue to support someone who I feel is taking advantage of me financially. So I often question my true motives when it comes to discussing WAH's monetary situation.
Was wondering if you struggle with the same things, or if you have a different perspective?
Regards PF-
PS- Say, I think in the past I remembering you mentioning being from TO? I grew up in "C-Rillo"
PetiteFlower
Quote: Follow Your Bliss
~Joseph Campbell
PF, I read your thread before replying here. Sassy gave you a great perspective from the position of the LBS / Responsible person in the relationship. I was in many ways like your husband and my WAS could not do what needed to be done to 'snap me out of it'. She never asserted herself and I resented her weakness and was able (enabled) to stay depressed and drinking at nite. I got DUI's also and let me tell you they are the MOST HUMILIATING experience you will ever go through. If you are depressed, the way they treat you will push you way further into the depression. Don't get me wrong, we deserve to be punished for being stupid like that, it's just that the punishment is more humiliation than it is anything else.
Anyway, it seems like you have no trouble saying what you need to say to him. But let me give some insight into how MEN work, and this is learned from my counselor when I asked her how, for me, it was relatively easy to stop drinking when W dropped the bomb?
It's simple actually, MEN respond to ACTIONS not WORDS. Counselor asked W what she did to try to get me to stop drinking. Answer: I told him to stop, I told him it was hurting our relationship, I told him... I told him...
Counselor asked her 'did you ever take the kids and LEAVE, go to a friends or relatives house and tell him you were not coming back until he was sober? Did you ever tell him in the morning after he was sober that he needed to leave the home when he was drunk?' No. What action did she finally do that got my attention and made me realize I was hurting her? She dropped the bomb.
Believe me, I sobered up real quick. And I realized that I was hurting and needed help with my depression. The other thing is that if you drink enough, long enough, you become addicted to alcohol and your body NEEDS it. The first few weeks are really hard.
In hindsite, I realize that W was not a strong or assertive person. She just kept it in until there was no room for good feelings. It was the entrance of OM into her life that caused her to have the 'strength' to leave. In reality all he did was make her feel 'in love' which basically allowed her to just walk away and ignore the problems.
So, what may have worked for me in the relationship? Well, I got on anti depressants which help immensely. But, if she had done any of the ACTIONS like leaving for a day or two and telling me it was because of my drinking it would have got my attention by the second or third time.
Also, I have a couple friends who don't live near me but we keep in touch and I would call them my 'best' friends. They had no idea I was in such dire straits. If she had called any of them and told them the situation they would have called me every day to check on me and give me crap. If I didn't get it together they would have come to see me and kicked my A$$. But W called one friend one time, and he called me and I convinced him I was fine. She needed to call him 2-3 times before he would have realized there was a problem, but she didn't.
Does your H have any friends like that? Can you make him not come home when he drinks? Can you go to a friends when he comes home drunk and tell him you will be back when he is sober? Actions Actions Actions, not words.
But only he can choose to decide he has had enough, that alcohol is not working for him. That he may need to be treated for depression. And everyone is different.
Quote: He was none to happy about this, as it showed it would be cutting into his lifestyle, and now things are more dire for him after his DUI.
'cutting into his lifestyle'? Too Bad, So sad. Do not help him any more than you would help a friend 'down on their luck'. In other words feed him and give him a bed (if you feel like it)These are his choices, not yours. If there was no 'you' in his life, what would he be doing? Trust me, I've been 'him' except that money was never a problem for me. But by verbally complaining or ignoring my problem W enabled me.
Quote: WAH knows now that if he leaves, he cannot afford a decent living environment for S3, and thus, cannot expect to do shared custody. So am I forcing him to stay for S3's sake, but not really for the R's sake? If he stays, will he only make a half-a$$ed attempt at making us work since he thinks he has no other options?
Well, the comparison to my sitch with WAW isn't quite the same. She knows she can't afford to get a decent place to live for her and the kids given the amount of support I am required to give her. Nothing like what she has here in our house. But, Counselor said that she had to learn that for herself. She left me and had an EA/PA and it still is EA, rather than really WORK on helping me and our relationship. Regardless, as far as money goes she ust left, and since she had no plan she is foolish to think that I will just 'take care of her'.
Sure, I feel guilty for what I DID in our relationship BUT that doesn't excuse HER actions either.
So, like you, I am actually the one who can afford to have the nice house for the kids to live in. And, they want to live with me because they see W and not able to care for them.
Now, with my depression and drinking she probably felt she had no choices. But what she finally ended up doing was worse.
Your H has a choice. He can only stay with you if he makes the commitment, otherwise you need to make sure he knows what the other alternative is. And that's what you are doing. This is HIS LIFE. This is not a dress rehearsal. DB'ing gets more complicated when alcohol is involved.
My life just keeps getting weirder and weirder. If you have read my thread you've seen that I have had one strange event after another with W. Tonite was, well, scary.
We had pizza and a movie with the kids around 6:30 tonite. The movie was 'Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy'.
She and I sat on opposite ends of the couch. Occasionally she would laugh and I would look over at her and she would NOT look at me. Ok, I figure she is ignoring me but that's just not the way she is, even during this 'separation' we are in.
Movie ends. Kids go to their respective rooms. W goes to her room, then comes back into the kitchen looking scared and a little weird. She says 'I don't feel good, I feel dizzy'. I ask her for more information, got a fever, stuff like that. She has her hand on her chest and says 'feel my heart'. I do, it's about 120 BPS. she says 'well, you know those 'magic brownies' we had in the freezer? I ate one of them about an hour ago. (Note: Her friend who hates me and is ecstatic she has an OM gave them to her over a year ago and they have been buried under stuff in the freezer).
Ok, she's all messed up now and I'm wondering if there was anything besides pot in the brownies but she tells me that (friend) made them and had some and it didn't affect her the same way. I point out that (friend) weighs about 350 pounds and W does not.
Anyway, having had experience with pot and with alcohol, both of which will raise your heart rate when they peak, I told her to go lie down and she says 'I want to go to the hospital!'. I tell her that during my drinking period I would have these same symptoms, high heart rate, and it goes away after a few minutes.
She starts to cry and turns her face away from me and says 'Please don't let the kids see me like this!' Then she says 'I can't believe this, I didn't know it would affect me this way, this is the same stuff YOU would do when you were drinking and now you have to take care of ME.'
I tried to hug her and she pulled away so I backed off. She was dizzy so I walked her to her room and she lay down. She said 'I bet you're going to remind me of this tomorrow, I bet you're happy about this'. I said, 'no, I won't. I know how it FEELS to be treated like that' (which I do of course, she did it to me for 5 years).
After about 20 minutes I checked on her and her heart rate was normal as expected and she was just high. But she was feeling pretty bad that she had done this and that I had to take care of her. She kinda tried to push me away.
I stayed nearby her room for a couple hours and in between put the kids to bed, telling them mom had stomach flu and they should leave her alone. After a while she got up to use the bathroom but really avoided talking to me, then went back to bed.
So here I am, trying to understand WHY after a year or so of having these 'brownies' in the freezer and neither one of us cared to eat them that whole time, she decides she is going to eat one TODAY? Maybe she wanted to 'feel better' about something. I asked her if there was anything she wanted to talk about and she said no. Luckily she only ate one. I took the other an threw it away.
Now, she doesn't really drink much, or often, and this was even more out of character.
Her day seemed fine, but she seemed like something was on her mind. This is just so 'not her'. Tomorrow she will be racked with guilt. Oh joy. I will be ignoring the whole thing because it's nothing that needs to be discussed anyway. But she scared the Sh*t out of me when I first had no idea why her heart was beating so fast. And even afterwards when it calmed down. I wonder if she even could tell that I was caring for her. It did't seem like it.
