Quote: totallymessedup: WTH! You have done so much and she's just stared back at you, lost in her drug (OM) induced world, watching you transform from a depressed man unable to care for you OR her, to a man embracing his own issues, dealing with them AND still finding room in his heart to try to insure HER growth as a person through all this.
Thank you for the complement. It does seem foolish to us, but we don't know what she thinks. And she is still in the fog of OM and the 'I hate frank because...' crap from the past. Easier to be angry at me than it is to admit that MAYBE she messed up too? And I am certainly not 'MR HAPPY' all the time. I am even keeled but it hasn't been long enough for me to be truly detached. But I am doing the best I can and it gets better each day
Quote: totallymessedup: I guess it's how we're wired, or at least I am. You have made such great strides in your life and I can only hope to be there someday. I truly hope I am there standing with my family and can't think of another way. I still have a lot of work to do...keep yours up!
Thanks for the complement. I too have a lot of work to do.
Quote: PArob: I have to agree with the others here Frank, your postings have given me strength at the times when I need it. You have been ever so insighful and sharing. Keep up the good work with your sitch and just know that a lot of people on here are pulling for you.
I'm stil not sure what it is I say that helps, I'm certainly not 'mr upbeat' all the time but I am SO GRATEFUL for the support I am getting from others
Quote: spitfire23: Showing your W what her life will be like while still providing a safety net is a very good idea, I think.
Well, as my counselor said, it will be much harder on everyone if we were to do this on the day we divorce. This gives her and I time to figure out what needs to be done if the D happens. It also gives W a reality check. Perhaps in her subconscious she may think that I have done a pretty good job taking care of us EVEN WHEN I WAS DEPRESSED AND DRINKING. And she also has to see that all her dreams of being a 'traveling Lomi/Massage teacher', even if it was with OM who says that's what HE wants to do, just isn't practical. You still gotta live somewhere. You still gotta support the kids. It's a whole lot harder when you are alone or living with a loser who has his own life agenda. I have always read that in a healthy marriage, BOTH people have the opportunity to grow much more because of the support they can give each other.
C says that W SHOULD have been planning this for months before saying she wanted a divorce. I mean if it was 'inevitable' then where was the 'plan'? She is lying to herself because she wanted the affair to 'feel better'.
One of my friends was saying to me that she will probably give us a chance when she starts having to get a crummy job to be able to pay her share of expenses or when she moves out and has to live in relative poverty. Then being with me will start to look good since it's comfortable. I really do NOT want that to be the reason. She should not want me for 'money and comfort'. It will only work if she sees that I have cared for her through all this and she respects and desires that love and caring which includes money and comfort.
Of course, she could just need to be on her own no matter what happens and she'll put up with it until she finds someone else and they live together. I would suspect that by then I won't really care any more.
Quote: Spitfire23: I don't think there is a test run for my H in order to make him wake up. What do you think?
I don't know, why don't you start talking to him about 'settlements' so he starts to see what he will lose? Do it in a 'friendly' way lke saying "I want to talk about this so that I can get an idea of what I should be expecting when we DO get a divorce, that would really help me to Plan" Then nail him when he tries to tell you what HE thinks will happen and what you KNOW isn't true. But be nice and thoughtful.
Thanks for the advice. We have only had 2 money discussions since he left. I wouldn't describe them as friendly but they weren't overly hostile either. In any event, they were surface discussions and didn't get down to the nitty gritty.
I think I totally blind-sided him last week when I asked him what the hold up (for our splitting up legally) was. He stammered around and then finally said he would make an appt. with his accountant to collect some financial info. on the companies. He was to get back with me after that so we could "discuss it" It's been a over a week and he's not brought it up, even though we have talked since then. Hmmmmmmmm ....avoidance???
Anyway, you're doing great, Frank. I share your feelings on not wanting a spouse to return to the M for financial reasons. What kind of life is that?? I still feel very positive about your sitch. Let's hope W continues with indiv. C. I think you have a gem with that C.
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Quote: It's been a over a week and he's not brought it up, even though we have talked since then.
Do you have any financial information? Do you know what he will be having to pay when you are divorced? Make some educated guesses and write a letter to him telling him that this is what you believe the state will require of you two. It's like a 'confidence' move and a 'reality check ' at the same time.
I would word such a letter / e-mail so it sounds as if you are asking him for 'help' figuring it out so you can make plans for your future and you would be grateful for help from him. That'll irk him because you are asking him to help YOU do what HE says he WANTS but is avoiding. He would be able to cope much better if you were threatening him, but you won't do that now, will you. You just need his HELP!
Quote: Anyway, you're doing great, Frank. I share your feelings on not wanting a spouse to return to the M for financial reasons. What kind of life is that?? I still feel very positive about your sitch. Let's hope W continues with indiv. C. I think you have a gem with that C.
Thanks, I really, really hope everyone is right and I'm the one who is wrong. I'm naturally a pessimist and expect the worst so I can prepare to survive it. My detachment is actually going well. I don't feel angry and I am pleasnt when I do talk to her, I just don't stick around when the conversation lulls. I also don't go looking for her to 'just talk'. Shes acting very neutral or slightly pleasant yesterday and today. Kind of like she is 'in control' of her things and she feels ok about it. Not doing anything different, not coming to me to talk about anything unless she has to. So it makes me feel like maybe she doesn't care.
But it's only been 2 days and we do talk at the family dinner table. I need to be patient.
Today, just today, I would so appreciate any sign of affection like a hug or something. I don't NEED it, I just would like it.
Hey, on a different note, last nite I looked on 'match.com' to see what kind of women in my age range and local area there are. Quite a few actually and most were very pretty. A few had some common interests but the ones we didn't have i common were things I didn't care to do. But, there actually was on woman who had raised 3 kids for the past 7 years after a divorce and they were 18 or so and she said 'I don't need a man to be happy, but I miss the companionship and am looking to meet someone with similar interests'. I was thinking about how she would have been the 'DB'er' in the divorce and how she had the strength to care for her kids on her own. She was 42 and was actually kinda cute.
Anyway, I guess it's helping me to see that there are other, stronger women out there who could be compatible with me.
Anyway, I guess it's helping me to see that there are other, stronger women out there who could be compatible with me.
Yes, Frank. There are a lot of other women our there. I know you are committed to making your M work and I admire and support you. It is good however, to look forward and know that you will be alright.
He would be able to cope much better if you were threatening him, but you won't do that now, will you. You just need his HELP!
Thanks for the reminder. I don't know exact dollars. I know I'm entitled to 1/2 our marital assets. The bulk of that being tied up in the 2 companies. At issue is....what are these companies worth? H's brother and SIL have been in a nasty divorce that has drug on for 2 1/2 years mainly trying to sort out the companies' worth. Their trial is now postponed until May. (June marks the end of 3 years since original filing) I do not want to spend 3 years in a court battle! Hopefully, the companies worth will be determined in that divorce and we can avoid all that ugliness.
Thanks again for your help. It is a very good suggestion.
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Well, W has been busily working on writing her resume today (massage therapist) so she can apply for jobs. OM sent her his as an example and she got some other ones too. Side note: OM hangs drywall for a living and does massage as a 'new' career apparently due to 'physical' issues.
Anyway, W seems very happy - she is being proactive which I like. My pessimism is kicking in and saying she is TOO happy and is that way because she is 'moving forward' with becoming separated and divorced. In other words, she has a 'plan' now. Plus of course OM supports her decisions and is helping her with her resume.
This is kind of scaring me since it tells me she is "full steam ahead" in gaining her independence from me and the marriage. And she is getting the emotional support from her 'soulmate' to continue doing this. If he wasn't there this wouldn't be moving like this but, it is what it is.
Anyone else had any experiences with WAW who has OM, and / or had to get a job and other things to establish her independence? What did they do? Get more or less distant?
Unrelated note: Cell phone logs show that they did not talk from Dec 25th to Jan 7th although she DID call him several times but did not connect. But I'm not snooping her mail so I have no idea what they talk about in the past 2 weeks but I do know they are still e-mailing and IM'ing.
Quote: Anyone else had any experiences with WAW who has OM, and / or had to get a job and other things to establish her independence? What did they do? Get more or less distant?
Unrelated note: Cell phone logs show that they did not talk from Dec 25th to Jan 7th although she DID call him several times but did not connect. But I'm not snooping her mail so I have no idea what they talk about in the past 2 weeks but I do know they are still e-mailing and IM'ing.
My W got a job this summer, and it energized her. She used it to ut some distance between her and I "Saying she needed to focus in her new career!" That last for about 2weeks until she started to complain about work, and wanted to talk to me daily about her job was going! In the end becasue of the kids it helped my sitch because it showed her how hard it would be on her own! Then she went back to school in Sept full time and this is when she really started to depend on me and see how hard it really is! That is when we got back together in Nov and started to recouncil. Ironic that now she is comfortable with the routine that I am "there" for her she wants her space again and the OM is back in the pic!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Quote: My W got a job this summer, and it energized her. She used it to put some distance between her and I "Saying she needed to focus in her new career!" That last for about 2weeks until she started to complain about work, and wanted to talk to me daily about her job was going! In the end becasue of the kids it helped my sitch because it showed her how hard it would be on her own!
Well, luckily I had a counselor session today and talked about some of this stuff. W had a session yesterday and C could not tell me anything from that session of course. But she asked me if her attitude had changed and I said she seemed happier.
We talked about one of the things my W had huge problems with was asserting herself. It's also one of the things that I disliked about her, her lack of independence. SInce she never could assert herself, she could not say or do the things that I needed to see and hear to snap me out of my depression and drinking. It was only when she DID assert herself (I want a divorce!) that I saw I couldn't stay the way I was either. So, the one time in our relationship she asserts herself was to END it. And now, she doesn't assert herself with D15 so she gets no respect. This all has to change.
So, her looking for a job to be able to contribute money into the 'child support' funds is an example of her asserting herself and learning some confidence. BUT the problem with that is I have been used to her 'needing' me and it scares me that she might actually learn how NOT to need me.
BUT then if she learned how to actually be independent then she'd be less likely to want to be with ME because she wouldn't NEED me. But I would PREFER her to be independent if she was WITH Me because I never liked her dependence. See the circular problem?
SO, one of the things C said was that it is much easier for her to work on being independent while she is still under a stable roof. WHAT??? I say. So she says that I could force her out, but then she wold either learn 'the hard way' which wouldn't be helpful for me since I will have alienated her.
She could fail, then meet someone else who she can become dependent on.
Or the third possibility: She could learn to be assertive and independent while living with me still as per our 'separation' arrangement. So of course I say "Umm, that means I am going to help her to learn independence from a man (me) so she can leave me and be ok because she can take better care of herself?"
C says: "W already has a bunch of numbers spinning around in her head that she knows she has to earn to be able to just LIVE in your house and contribute to the welfare of the kids". She also knows that you would prefer her to be a part time stay at home mom because it would be better for the kids. And once she really understands the numbers she's going to realize what it takes to hold a family together financially and emotionally. That should increase the respect you both have for each other which has been missing for a long time. And you will both learn that there is a difference between 'dependence', 'independence' and 'interdependence'.
In a real, healthy relationship neither person should be dependent on the other for their core emotional needs. There should be a healthy interdependence between you where you choose to care for each other, not because you need each other. Too many relationships are stuck in 'dependence' mode.
Of course, _I_ know how to take care of myself and others because _I_ have been doing that since I was 17. She has never had to really do that for herself.
I said to C "I'm not her DAD you know!" and she says 'no, but you're working on your growth which is mostly spiritual and emotional growth. Your intellectual self has always been strong. She has to work on her inner strength and confidence or she will never be someone you would be happy to be with.'
Ok, so I did promise that I would do whatever it takes to help her get to where she should be emotionally and to erase the hurt and negative feelings she has for me. Where she needs to be now is to be capable of not needing me. And she needs a 'hand up' to get there FROM ME. And when she finally gets there, she will actually be the woman I would want to be with again. But, she won't need me and we will finally be 'equals'. So, she now has to decide if she want's OM, or someone else or to be an equal with me.
Since we'll be living in the same house there is an opportunity to learn that interdependence over time. And to replace the negative memories with positive ones.
Once again, I am being asked to do something that is counter to what I would think I should do. But, it is the most unconditional loving thing I could do even though it does nothing directly to help us to be a couple again. But I promised I would do everything in my power to help her through the hurt... now I can help her be strong enough to actually leave me and be ok on her own. Seems crazy.
oh, C did tell me one thing W said to her but she said "It's something you already know". She said "I've always loved looking into Franks eyes, they are the most beautiful part of him."
I remember when she used to tell me that when she looked into my eyes she would just melt. That was a long long time ago. We lose so much.
Oh, my eyes are a very light blue with a little greenish tint, kind of hazel colored.
Unfortunately Frank, I can be of no help here. Have faith in the adage that the "grass isn't always greener on the other side." Sure, she may be moving forward with gaining her independence right now, but when she actually has to "live" it in reality as opposed to theory, it may be enough to sour her on the whole deal.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
OK, so after my long diatribe earlier about 'asserting herself' and other issues in my wifes head I went for a drive with D15 to just hang out. We've been doing this lately and it has become 'father-daughter' chat time.
When we got back she had asked me to show her my photo book from my trip to Europe in 1985 (before I met W a year later). We sat on my bed and looked at pictures and D15 saw pictures of my girlfriend of that time. She made some comments on how she was dressed but basically the girl was cute and pretty. And it was summer in Europe so she dressed 'loose'. Well in the middle W comes in the room and sees the book and says "Oh, looking at pictures of Pamela huh?? D15 says "Daddys showing me his trip book from Europe." Then she point out a picture where I am wearing some really short athletic shorts, saying how bad my fashion was. Then W says 'He still has those shorts!'. Wellllll I then say 'They weren't really mine they were actually Pamelas. I don't know how they ended up in my clothes.' SILENCE...... me: I think I tossed them a while ago.
W says "well, goodnite and leans over me to give D15 a kiss. Then she turns to me, smiles and then ruffles my hair and leaves. New behavior. Hasn't touched me in over 2 weeks. In that instant I almost thought she was going to kiss me. Maybe she thought so too.
Been awhile since I commented on your sitch Frank... It's so hard to see you go through the same stupid ride we're all going through since you seem to have pulled it together more that we have. It goes to show that at the end of the day we're always going to be susceptible to their influence. No matter how much we detach, go dark, move on or any of the other euphemisms we use we still fall prey to the emotions we try to bury. Most of the time when I read these posts, I feel better, today I feel worse. Dunno why. I guess it's the reminder that it may not get better, at least anytime soon. I really hope yours does and keep your chin up man. You've come so far and we're pulling for you. I gotta update my sitch and then maybe I'll come back and be less vague about yours.
