Hmm, this morning W asked me if I would be around so she could go to church! There is a church she likes that she goes to maybe once a year. It's a mix of God and spirituality. They usually have very uplifting speakers and I've been there a few times and find it enlightening.
She hasn't been there in at least a year. Obviously something is compelling her to go. And she 'saged' her room (spiritual purification) last nite so she's got something bothering her.
Yet another mystery. Sure would be great if the topic of the day was 'marriage and family'! Hey, I can hope!
Quote: So you see, it's not about how it's presented, but how it's interpreted.
Actually, NYS, that was my quote and this will be the last time I take up space to respond to this kind of thing. It's counterproductive. If several people (actually everyone who took the time or energy to respond) took your approach as sarcastic and "attacking" then maybe, just maybe, it's not our interpretation of your remarks, it's your remarks that were out of line. You can keep justifying yourself, trying to prove you're right by continuing to belittle the attempts by Frank to put this behind him but in the end, it doesn't change anything. Frank, me, Tim, hope, and everyone else here are in a very fragile emotional state, which obviously you have some experience with, but are beyond right now. Good for you, and I meant that. If I ever get to that place, I doubt I would come back here and do anything to mess with the folks gathered to help each other. To me, it would be like a reformed alcoholic going to AA and calling out the people at the meeting for being weak and dependent. It's a marvelous grasp of obvious to say that. Anyway, like I said, you can take this statement and rip it apart line for line but I will not reply to it. Frank apologized, and it's time to move on. You're right. Seriously, you are.
The church thing seems like it could be a very good for you both. I am not a very religious person but it is something I have been thinking of doing since all this started. My W is not too interested though. Again, I really hope that works out. Hey, change is good, eh?
Ok, I really don't mean to push anything or go over the line with you but please consider going to church with your wife. I'll get personal about myself here and tell you that I do a lot of praying about my situation, and ALL of ours, in fact. I have a lot of faith and sometimes, that's all that's gotten me through a particularly bad moment since this all started. All I can say is that if my H. came to me and wanted to go to church with me, I would be incredibly thankful for that. Not all of us feel the same way about religion, and that's our right of course. Just saying I think this is a big positive. I mean, certainly at church they aren't going to be singing the praises of infidelity, right? Let me know what happens.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: Hmm, this morning W asked me if I would be around so she could go to church! There is a church she likes that she goes to maybe once a year. It's a mix of God and spirituality. They usually have very uplifting speakers and I've been there a few times and find it enlightening.
I could only wish my W would go. The missal of late has been around St. Paul and the first letter to the Corinthians (not that I am overly religious, but I like some of this stuff).
Homily today was off of that topic and about dignity, and moving away from sinful acts. Our W's I suppose could use a dose, eh, Frank.
I was trying to catch up on your sitch Frank - your W is all over the place to me and it sounds familiar. Detachment is key I think because they cannot do it with us or they'll pull us down too. Think of what it took for you to hit your low point, right.
My sitch has stalled slightly - the earth scortching of last week is still smoldering, but I'm going to drop the second A-bomb this week and we'll see where it goes...!
Hang in there. You should come to Boston (if you can handle the cold) - we've got a posse of DB'ers starting (check it out in my sitch if you have a moment!).
E
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: So you see, it's not about how it's presented, but how it's interpreted.
Hitler killed millions of Jews. Was it ''how he presented it' or 'how people interpreted it' that caused the actual KILLINGs to take place? The message was the same in both cases.
Quote: TMU: Frank apologized, and it's time to move on.
Yes, this is getting tedious. My 'apology' was aimed at preventing others on this board from seeing two grown(?) men bickering. Doesn't give a newbie a very postive feeling. And I don't feel the need to prove someone else is right or wrong unless I am asked to.
Ok, now that we have survived Fridays event, both at my house and on this bulleting board, Sunday was a big change.
As I mentioned, W went to this spiritual church this morning. The speaker spoke about how we have to have balance between our intellectual self and our intuitive self to be able to know God. Also, that we see God in every person we meet.
Later that evening, she started talking about the concepts and what they mean in her life. She thinks that if she stays with her intuition when making decisions, she is usually ok. But when she uses her intellect she messes things up. She interpets that as her intellect being off balance. I have actually been studying these concepts and they are much simpler than they were presented.
It goes like this: If you use your intuition to 'know' that something is possible you may act on it, or you may not. Why? Because your Intellect doesn't believe that your intuition exists so therefore it cannot influence your life.
When your Intellect has accepted God, and the spiritual benefits of being a spiritual being, you will then be closer to God, and closer to being able to heal people of their hurts.
Something like that anyway.
Today, I was given a test. I think I did pretty good. Here it is:
In the afternoon we decided to go kayaking. We loaded the 'Yaks' on the roof of my truck and while doing that, W made a mistake with the tie downs and one fell off the roof into the driveway.
TEST: What will Frank do? YELL and make her feel bad? (180) Nope. I laughed that they are not supposed to fly, they go in the water, and help her pick it up to try again.
TEST: It was very windy as we got on the road. The Yaks shifted on the roof. W was nervous and asked "Shouldn't you check the ropes?" Now if you've read any relationship books you know a QUESTION is really a REQUEST. So I say 'good idea' and pull over to check the ropes, which were perfect.
Well we drove for about an hour with no issues because they were tied quite well but shifted a little with the wind.
W and I talked about various topics, most of which I can't recall but we made lot's of eye contact, smiled and generally very pleasant to be around. She is still behind a wall, talks to me like some guy she happens to know. But the laughs were genuine and when I made some comments that were about emotional stuff (No R talk) she kept eye contact when replying.
After we got to the launch area, the waves were too high se we decided not to go in the water. We went to the playground and spent about an hour with the girls running around on the play structure.
Left to go to McDonalds. Got food. Kids playing video games.
Wife says to me : I've been thinking about my financial obligations. (Last week I told her she had to pay 1/2 te utilities. She saw what her budget is without MY income and panicked.
W: I see I can get a job at a spa or chiropractor. (she is a massage therapist). But I wouldn't make more money and I might make less. So I have been thinking about starting my own Serminar series to teach the Hawaiin massage.
(I'm surprised)
W: I think I can double my income if I teach at one massage school every two weeks. It would be better than working a spa. But I wouldn't be able to pay all the bills I will owe for 3 months.
ME: Well, that's ok for now. I have faith that you will do this and make it work out.
W: (looking down) Well, I really have been wanting to have a partner to work with and teach these classes but I am resigned to not having anybody, and doing it myself.
NOTE: OM said he wanted to do that with her a couple weeks ago. Earlier she had said she was going to travel all around teaching with a soulmate partner. What happened?
Me: Where will you teach?
W: Around here, just this area :Note: Plan with OM was travel the country, teach in big cities.
We talk about her needing a resume and brochures so her biggest fear is that she won't be able to make a good one. Now, one of the things I DO is brochures and websites. AFter the 'bomb' and she moved into her own room I made it clear that since we are 'separated' she should figure out her computer problems on her own, don't ask me until you are desperate.
I kind of felt that part of the 'Don't Help' phase is over for me. If she asks for help, I'll be there.
She went on to talk about how scared she is and I told her that I ALWAYS have faith in her abilities.
She KNOWS that, it's been brought up in therapy in many ways. If she could see that I'm better now, and I have the resources at my disposal to help he be a success. She needs to see that TOGETHER we help each other achieve our goals. Not yet though. So far I have granted her a few months to come up with her share of the expenses (yeah, like I would evict her.)
We left to come home and overall I would say the day was the MOST pleasant day we have had. She was still guarded but liked my witty remarks and I made a lot of eye contact.
Well, there you have it. A good day followed by an interesting talk about spiritual stuff. She still hasn't realized than she is behind in her growth and I am way ahead in mine.
I made sure I went to my room first to play 'detached'.
Fun day. I could do this again. It was almost like we were a family
I am go glad for you. I think you are lucky that you and your W have those kinds of things that you both like to do. Me and mine don't really have any activities like Kayaking that we do together. I really hope she can look at this experience and file it away in the "it's good to be a family, WITH Frank" file. It seems like this is what we are supposed to be giving them, reasons to believe that the grass is growing just fine on our side of the fence. I can't draw many parallels between your sitch and mine in the details, but one that I am starting to draw is that the OMs in both our sitches may be losing their luster but for some reason, our W's are clinging to the freedom they felt at the height of the affair. It is an offshoot of the theory that it's not really about the OM. My W said that over and over. If that's true then why don't they realize that it's advantageous to revisit their relationships once the OM fades to see what is possible. For my W I think the reason is because she's spent so much time in pain herself that she refuses to go back to the place where she's vulnerable again. I know after going through this myself, I don't want to do anything that would expose me to it again, even though I know I have to. I hope your W can start trusting the changes in you, and in your case, unlike mine, they are sweeping and easy to see, if not easy to believe in. The longer she feels safe around you, feels that you will not hurt her like she used to, reason has it that she'll warm up to you. Then again, reason plays no part in this. Keep plugging away man. Keep detached. Let her make the ovations and respond with loving kindness. Once again, you are helping yourself, and you're helping us. For that thank you.
It is an offshoot of the theory that it's not really about the OM. My W said that over and over. If that's true then why don't they realize that it's advantageous to revisit their relationships once the OM fades to see what is possible
My W has said that also...and I'm having the same struggles with it...Frank did leave a humerous post on my thread about it, check it our if you have time.
I think our W's deep dowm want to come back, but something is keeping them from taking the leap back. You are in an envyable position in my eyes because you have your W at home, where at least there is some communication...my W despite saying that she wanted more communication outside of MC is always with OM so I don't when she expects it to happen.
Hang in there...Me, you, Frank, Tim, and all the others on here will get through this...It may or may not be with W. But we will be fine and we have to have the confidence in knowing that we are worthy of a great R (especially after we know what we know now about ourselves)
Quote: TMU: I really hope she can look at this experience and file it away in the "it's good to be a family, WITH Frank" file. It seems like this is what we are supposed to be giving them, reasons to believe that the grass is growing just fine on our side of the fence.
I hope so too. Today she is back to 'annoyed by anything I say mode'.
The grass has water and food here. 'Out there' well, it's iffy...as noted by W talking about starting her own teaching biz, and not being able to pay her share of expenses for the next 3 months while she does it. The alternative is she gets a job and works harder and spends less time with the kids. BUT she knows that I don't want her to do that - spend less time with the kids - so she carefully played that card in the 'negotiations'! I'm actually so proud of her for that!
Quote: the OMs in both our sitches may be losing their luster but for some reason, our W's are clinging to the freedom they felt at the height of the affair.
Yeah, I believe she still thinks she is 'in love' and OM is probably saying all the right things still but isn't making efforts to see her or cal her. That has to be waking her up to what a loser he really is. Especially when she sees ME every day and she lives quite nicely and doesn't see any of the old negatives with me any more. Plus I have been detaching so I think she really believes I am leaving HER too. I hope so because that helps dispel the idea that I may be NEEDY still - her biggest issue.
Quote: For my W I think the reason is because she's spent so much time in pain herself that she refuses to go back to the place where she's vulnerable again.
Oh yeah, for sure. Who wants to risk that again? And I 'tried' to get myself back together more than once so she ust doesn't believe me. Plus, she started a journey and wants to see where it will lead her. If you think about it she (1) Devalued my relationship with her and (2) Is Totally infatuated with OM's relationship with her. The scales are tipped towards OM for emotional support, and (grudgingly) towards ME for all OTHER support.
I truly believe that when she was telling me she couldn't pay me for 3 months she actually thought I would get down on her, make her get a sucky job! What an awful way to feel about me. Since I did NOT do that but instead supoprted her choice and told her I ALWAYS believe in her then she had another old belief smashed.
Quote: I hope your W can start trusting the changes in you, and in your case, unlike mine, they are sweeping and easy to see, if not easy to believe in. The longer she feels safe around you, feels that you will not hurt her like she used to, reason has it that she'll warm up to you.
I hope so. I sometimes fear that whatever we had is gone forever and at best, we'll get along as ok friends. But then, we have 20 years with good memories too. It's that OM issue that I do my best to ignore.
Quote: Once again, you are helping yourself, and you're helping us. For that thank you.
I could not be where I am without your support, and the support of everyone else on the board and I am grateful.
I know I'll be alright, whatever happens. I do not know how this will all turn out, will she just need to wander for a few years or will there be a string of OM's as she tries to find someone more 'like her'.
Our counselor told me that one thing W may find is that she really IS INDEPENDENT in our marriage and always was. She just wasn't asserting her independence even though, if you were to ask her, she would have to tell you that I NEVER did anything to prevent her from doing things she wanted to do. In fact I always encouraged her. It was her own fears of failure, or of doing something I didn't "like" that stoppped her.
A healthy 'interdependence' is what it's all about. That's what we both need to learn and accept.
But there are two big hurdles. The affair and whether or not I can forgive her for what she did (I can't right now) and her fears, and whether she can forgive ME for my mistakes and believe that I will not be that person ever again.
I said in a post last week that Counselor TOLD her that she was much safer working on ways to support herself while still under MY roof instead of being out on her own right NOW. When I said to C 'so, you are saying I need to HELP her to get on her feet so she can support herself and then be able to LEAVE me easier?" C said "Well, maybe she will also see that she CAN support herself but by staying with the man who helped her to learn that she may find that together you can do much better things with both your lives."
