the slow walk home 2

[cluelessj]

I don't know if I can really give you any peace of mind about why your W's, even after the glitter of OM wears off, still can't jump back into your Rs, but here goes.

In my M, both my ex-H and I cheated on each other. The moment I did, I moved out and wanted a D because in my mind, once you start down that road, you need to get out, can't play both fields.

My M had become like death for me. There were times with OM that I felt so alive, a part of me that had been buried for a long time had woken up. It wasn't that I didn't want to let that go, I couldn't let it go. I couldn't let myself die again.

As the A became annoying and the OM showed how pathetic and selfish he was, I no longer wanted that, but still needed to be alive.

Now as life would have it, I couldn't afford to live on my own so my H offered to let me stay with him until I could get back on my feet. As time went by, we both saw things from our past that we weren't ready to throw away yet. We also admitted that even though we were scared of the pain we both had caused each other that we could still love and started to talk about staying together.

My point is, don't fear the freedom that your W's are enjoying right now. I think Frank has the right idea to support W in endeavors. It is obvious that OM is not in the future picture anymore. She may stay in contact with him for a while, because it is her reminder of the freedom she found. But she seems to be seeing that he is not the source of her happiness, she herself is admitting that it is "over". I agree that the more she sees you cheering her on, and the more you share happy safe times like Sunday, it will be natural for her to turn back to you.

No matter how many walls she has built, or how thick they are, you have a huge history, and it is human nature to stay with what is familiar. Take that and use it as best you can.

PS: Please don't let the fact that I am no longer in that M discourage you on this sitch. He is a WAH and I am the one who fought for the M in the end.

[grasshopper]

Frank,

Damn, you are one tough mother! I am pretty sure I don't have the strength to deal with "Helping my wife get on her feet so she could leave me easier." It would be at that point when self preservation would kick in and I would lose it.
I'm proud of you (I think) for dealing with this in a mature way when many of us would not.
Power on and keep us posted (I know you will).

TMU

[DonS]

Frank,
Some of the relational aspects of your sitch are very similar to mine. I suffered from mild depression periods over the past 5 years (not on anti-depressants though) and WAW was not assertive in knowing how to help me so we both spiraled down a vortex of hurt and resentment. This, together with my critical, controlling nature eventually led her to pull away from me since her emotional needs weren't being met. She in turn sought out the comforting, consoling, support and sinister nature of OM/BIL who was more than happy to take her away.

But there are two big hurdles. The affair and whether or not I can forgive her for what she did (I can't right now) and her fears, and whether she can forgive ME for my mistakes and believe that I will not be that person ever again.

Ditto. Even though WAW said she saw changes in me over the past year she resented those changes and even resented me. "Why am I so worth it NOW," was her mantra until she left.

How can we get over those 2 hurdles? Not totally sure how/when it will happen, but obviously MUTUAL FORGIVENESS is the key. Since I'm only responsible for myself and controlling my own behavior, I must forgive WAW for the devastation she's caused. Easier said than done.

[DonS]

And I MUST forgive MYSELF for the devastation I caused her.

[StrongNSassy]

Bravo Don!! You GET IT!!

Something that I have noticed now reading the men's threads...there seems to be a pattern with the WAWs that I am noticing...the men are controlling and the wives are not very assertive in expressing themselves...how does this get broken? How do we as women find a comfort level to express ourselves and feel safe and secure with our Hs...and how do the men find the trust to let go of the control?

[NYsurvivor]

with the WAWs that I am noticing...the men are controlling and the wives are not very assertive in expressing themselves...how does this get broken? How do we as women find a comfort level to express ourselves and feel safe and secure with our Hs...and how do the men find the trust to let go of the control?

The partner that's the avoider is basically really avoiding themselves but believes all the damage is being done by their partner. The "controlling" partner may not even really be controlling, but just exhibiting some behaviors being interpreted as controlling. But when they are, in fact, "controllers", it's not so much about trusting their partner, it's really about their own fears of not getting into situations they wouldn't like.

Both these behavioral problems can come from role models and learned coping behaviors. First step is for each partner to recognize that the problem, from their viewpoint, actually stems from themselves, and why, and then it's about relearning new ways to habitually cope. For conflict avoiders, and the following is by no means all-inclusive, that means setting boundaries and talking about perceived problems, even if it's distasteful to them to do so. For controllers, it's about letting go, acceptance of their partners viewpoints and flaws.

Here's an article about Conflict Avoiders I found on another website:

I DON'T WANT TO START ANYTHING"(Walking on eggshells.)

Note.Although the following applies at most times in relationships it is not
a wise thing to do while the dust and debris is still flying around just
after "the bomb" has been dropped. .Choose your moments wisely

Be open and honest about your feelings.(but without sentimentality and
mushiness, and only once if at all during the early post bomb period .."I
Love you's" generally should not be said at this time... ).Bring up all
significant problems, even if you are afraid that doing so will disturb your
partner. Do not walk on eggs shells.IF YOU HAVE LEARNT HOW to prevent a
discussion from turning into an argument, you can no longer use the fear of
starting an argument as an excuse for avoiding a discussion. You need to try
resolve it (* many and maybe all issues themselves may remain factually
unresolved but the emotional aspects will be) if you want a truly intimate
and trusting relationship with your partner to be open and honest about your
feelings, to "level" with them ,and to bring up all significant problems,
concerns, and worries.(* But not all at the same time) This you must do even
if you are afraid that discussing them will prove embarrassing or otherwise
disturbing to you or your partner. To leave a significant problem or concern
undiscussed is similar to leaving a festering infection untreated. The
problem will not go away all by itself.In fact like an infection the problem
will get worse.

The problem needs be brought up and discussed tactfully with due regard for
the feelings of the partner; it will only hurt more in the long run if you
try to protect your partner or yourself, perhaps from becoming upset by
avoiding a touchy topic. Another way of stating this is: DO NOT WALK ON
EGGS! Walking on eggs is often confused with tactfulness, although in a
certain sense it is almost the opposite of tactfulness. Walking on eggs
shells implies: "I distrust your ability to handle the truth,I distrust you
to handle a sincere comment and I fear that you will react negatively and
therefore I will not tell you." In other words, the anticipated negative
reaction of the partner is used as an excuse for not being open and sincere.
Thus, in walking on eggs there is an implied contempt for your partner.This
sometimes is called the protective lie or protective insult....

Tactfulness, on the other hand, implies respect for and trust in your
partner. The message involved in a tactful approach is essentially: "I trust
you to be able to handle my sincerity as long as I show respect for your
feelings," and the feared reaction on the part of the other person is not
used as an excuse for not being open and sincere. Walking on eggs shells is
a destructive approach, a way of avoiding a problem and not being intimate
with one's partner, in addition to showing distrust and contempt.
Tactfulness is a constructive approach which meets the problem and leaves
the door open to intimacy, in addition to showing respect for your partner.

The technique of walking on eggs shells is often used by people who evade
fights..."conflict avoiders".(sorry about the label) who stay out of fights
because they are unconsciously afraid of losing the battle, or afraid of the
unpleasant facts about themselves/about their partners which might emerge
from such fighting.(And also to be fair, keep in mind that for some people
especially women who come from backgrounds where verbal abuse and violence
has taken place,interactions like this can be quite disturbing and
frightening, has "ehchoes"unless the style of the other partner is "safe".)

Rather than risk having such unpleasant facts, weak excuses, or unwarranted
assumptions exposed, discussion are avoided with the pretext that they don't
want to "spoil a nice day" or they "don't like to argue." In the case of frequently recurring problems, the excuse "I don't want to nag" is often used . Walking on eggs shells can also be combined with the destructive use of silence. Walking on eggs shells
usually leads to intensification of conflict,(long trem) since the feelings
that are "bottled up" will become stronger and stronger.They may then
express themselves either suddenly and explosively(as in the case of some
verbal and pyshical abuser or gradually and in an "underhanded" manner (by
"forgetting," passive resistance and passive aggression or coldness).

Accommodating to the other person's wishes may be courteous and "nice" and
lead to smoothness in living and to "getting along."(and one shouldnt be
intentionally rude or undiplomatic'and try their utmost to "get on") but to
be too "nice", too compliant (too "MR NICE GUY OR GIRL") when important
issues are at stake, or when you yourself are strongly against your partners
position, (*careful here..this is not to suggest you should be so openly
"against your partners wish to leave"... and remain in a fixed polar view
when "the bomb" has been dropped..that does'nt work can be costly and
dangerous. It can be costly because the price of accommodation is often
chronic inner resentment and a feeling of being a "controlled" or "one down
in the relationship". It can be dangerous because the bottled up resentment
can result in dangerous behavior or the partner may start taking advantage
of the fact that you give him a green light, in which case your relationship
is in danger of becoming that of leader master and follower slave rather
than that of two intimate companions of equal worth. So, the statement .'OK
have it our way" or 'OK" accompanied by a sigh and/or a resigned tone of of
voice is a danger signal. NO discussion should be allowed to end with such
resentful or resigned accomodation. To "OK have it your own way" the only
safe reply is "Look I appreciate you wanting to please me but are you sure
you wont feel resentful about it later on down the track.?...I dont want us
to make a decision you might find hard or unable to live with.

Countless number of divorces can be traced back to "conflict avoidance".Time
and time again marriages go south because of the lack of training ( in
interpersonal communication) and inability of the partners to achieve an
open,honest, and intimate relationship with another person because of the
fear of expressing feelings and discussing problems.

A lot of this fear is due to the partner not wanting to "risk the
relationship" by saying things that need to be said, (at or near to the time
that there is an issue) and both collude in this stratagem with the thought
"If I I dont mention it,it will go away by it'self....it's no big deal" or
they hold on to the forlorn hope that someday it will get better all of
it's own accord. This can lead to a partner to a growing sense of
dissappointment, alienation and disaffection, to "wanting out"....

The statement, "It would hurt ( upset) him, so I won't tell him how I feel,"
is only partially based on a genuine and sincere conscious desire to protect
the partner. When analyzed this statement is almost always found to be an
excuse designed primarily to protect the person making the statement from
having to face basic and anxiety provoking issues rather than to protect the
partner from being "hurt. The statement itself implies distrust of the
partner,or at least a lack confidence in the partner's ability to handl
sincere communication. It also implies pessimism with regard to the
relationship ever ever becoming one of intimacy or trust,since these two
conditions are dependant upon openess and sincerity of communication.

The statement, "It would hurt (upset) him, so I won't tell him," can also be
seen as an example of the tendency to think in extremes.
The person making the statement is, in effect, choosing one of two extremes:
"I can't express my feelings without my partner becoming upset, so it's best
that I don't bring up those feelings at all" Although this statement may
sound logical on the surface, it does not make sense because of two reasons:

1.The partner and the relationship will be,in the long run, be hurt more by
the silence than by bringing out the feelings, even if the feelings are
expressed in a destructive manner.

2.The feelings do not have to be expressed destructively; they can be
brought out tactfully and sincerely in such a way that the partner is not
realistically hurt.

Reason number one is undeniable. Reason number two is often rejected by
individuals with the excuse: "He would get just as upset whether I was
tactful or not." The excuse must then be met by a factul observation: "If
your partner gets upset when you express your feelings openly, sincerely,
and tactfully, that is due to his problems, for which he should seek help.
But you are not to use his problems as an excuse for not being open and
sincere about your feelings,because such avoidance is in itself
destructive."

The reason some individuals avoids the tactfulness alternative is that he
unconsciously knows he will hurt the partner most effectively by choosing
either extreme: by being destructively open with his feelings,like a bull in
a china shop or by being silent.Avoiding the tactfulness alternative and
engaging in one of the extremes(which of course guarantees that the other
partner will get upset)can then serve as a means to prove that the partner
is an unreasonable person. "You see,there is no way to please him,If I
express my feelings and *scream* at him he gets just as mad as when i am
quite,so what am i to do?..of course i'd rather be quite,because i am a
peace loving person...(but actually what is floating around the back blocks
of the brain is this.."because my being quite will hurt him more". The
approach: "It would hurt him,so i won't tell him(especxially when it is
chronic, amounts to accepting or "taking" too much negative behavior from
the partner and can be seen as the opposite of faultfinding.The purpose of
such long term "swallowing" of the partners unacceptable behavior is to
"heap coals of fire" upon the partners head and let him accumulate a long
list of "crimes" which the "swallower" can then use later as an excuse for
his own destructive actions.

FOR INSTANCE...

For more than twenty years Mr Smith has been married to a woman who's
nagging,whining and incesstant demands for more money he has "silently
endured" . Then one day "out of the blue"(though not really out of the blue
because the often muttered "someday' that he has been putting off has
arrived) when the children have gone off to college and his wife is out for
the day, Mr Smith packs up all his belongings, leaves a brief note...a "Dear
Joan, I cant do this any more" and leaves the house and the marriage for
good. Later he brags to his friends about how he "hung in there" for the for
the children' sake-"took" his wife's destructive behavior for so many years
without saying anything!(saint)..Of course all around "Well dones" are being
handed out to him...backslapping a plenty ...the man gets a Verbal Medal for
doing WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO!. When asked about the reason why he never
voiced his feelings or why he made so few attempts to voice his feelings, he
may use the standard excuses: "I have no right to change another
person(which in reality he cant directly anyway and he knows it..it's an
excuse) or "it would only have led to arguments", this way at least I had a
little peace once in awhile."

Mr. Smith's destructiveness is at least equal to that of his wife's. Letting
a person get away with destructive behavior is in it's self destructive. It
was Mr Smiths duty in the marriage to

(1)attempt to bring out the best in his wife and himself,

(2) to(tactfully and with great compassion) point out her destructive
behavior and help her overcome it, even though arguments may have resulted.

(3) ask his wife to suggest ways in which he could improve? or change and if
the first three failed then

(4) he could have sought out professional help for the realtionship....

His failure to do so (and hers) resulted in the tragic demise of the
marriage.

Using the anticipated negative reaction of another person as an excuse not
to be open and sincere is thus destructive to both parties.

[Tim297181]

Bravo Don!! You GET IT!!

Something that I have noticed now reading the men's threads...there seems to be a pattern with the WAWs that I am noticing...the men are controlling and the wives are not very assertive in expressing themselves...how does this get broken? How do we as women find a comfort level to express ourselves and feel safe and secure with our Hs...and how do the men find the trust to let go of the control?

Trust!!!! That is the key! Alot of the men are very similar including myself, that we have been very controlling. It is a vicious circle we get in.....spouse puts up road blocks, and stops communicating, H wants to express himself and starts to control situation to get what he wants!
I can only comment from the man's perspective but I started to let go of my control when I started to work on myself more and let my W do her thing! Tough at the start but easier as it went on. I am currently trying to let go more again because the OM is back in the pic.

Frank again your strength is amazing and I always appreciate and learn from your posting!

[frank_D]

Tim:
Frank again your strength is amazing and I always appreciate and learn from your posting!

Thank you. I don't see that I have strength that is any greater than the rest of us on this board. I feel the same feelings, the same needs, the same wish for the pain to be over. I hurt right now just "because". No particular reason, just hurting and feeling alone. It will pass.

Everyone who is HERE on the board and doing something to rebuild their marriage is showing great strength. Most people would fight, give up, move out. That's why there is a 50% divorce rate.

You have great strength. It's much easier to run away. That doesn't take any strength. Thats what our WAS's did.

I do know that I have one gift in particular that is being tested now - Being able to love unconditionally and absorb whatever hurt I have to, if it means that someone I love will better themselves and find a happier life with or without me. And I can absorb a LOT of hurt, I've been doing it all my life.

I love my wife enough to do that for her. To help her to learn how to be her own person without getting her identity from me or any other man.

And if the day comes that she moves out, or falls in love with someone else 'for real' I'll hurt, but I'll be happy for her because I only want the best for us both.

It's easy to say, but I truly hope I don't ever have to do it.

[SvenTheRed]

Frank,

I do know that I have one gift in particular that is being tested now - Being able to love unconditionally and absorb whatever hurt I have to, if it means that someone I love will better themselves and find a happier life with or without me. And I can absorb a LOT of hurt, I've been doing it all my life.

I love my wife enough to do that for her. To help her to learn how to be her own person without getting her identity from me or any other man.

And if the day comes that she moves out, or falls in love with someone else 'for real' I'll hurt, but I'll be happy for her because I only want the best for us both.

Man you said it. There is peace in those quotes. Wow, what a 180 from what you and me were talking about just a few short weeks ago. This is key to detaching lovingly. Hard as hell, but when you get there, it seems ANYTHING is possible - especially *OUR* and our S's hapiness.

Keep plugging along and be true to yourself man!

E

[Tim297181]

I do know that I have one gift in particular that is being tested now - Being able to love unconditionally and absorb whatever hurt I have to, if it means that someone I love will better themselves and find a happier life with or without me. And I can absorb a LOT of hurt, I've been doing it all my life.

Strange! Today I was at my therapist and she asked me a similar question "How much pain and hurt am I willing to put up with, and when is enough enough?"

I really never had the answer, and it seems Frank and many of us have a high tolerance to pain and hurt! Is this good or bad? Are we enabling our WAS because of our strength of commitment and high pain tolerance?

I know personally I am different person because of this, and I have found a strength I never thought I had. I can see it in Frank, TMU, and many of the others who have posted and we should be proud of that!