You know my sitch and you know who I was when I was lost and who I am now. There wasn't a thing in the world that my H said, no matter how true it was, that I heard THEN. But when I came around after 2 years every single word he said to me was right back, echoing in my ear. So if you do it tactfully, it could help IN THE END, to say what you feel. However, you know she'll be pissed but remember...the more true the words are the madder the WAW is going to get. But it's good, it keeps the "running" from going on endlessly and make no mistake, she is running. Every bit of truth you can hit her with - respectfully - aids in bringing her around the mountain. I've been there. I know. My H and I lived together, too for 15 months with my heels firmly dug in and I wasn't budging. We DID have good times, like you all do. But they were not long lasting. When I opened my eyes to reality though, I remembered those times and they mattered a lot to me.
Your W should be more sensitive to D's feelings. It is very disturbing that she disregards them and re-emphasizes that nothing is going to change - D is immenant. That is sad, that she disrespects them so much. That's a life altering mistake on her part that they will pay for. Very unfair and I can not say I understand that aspect of her current mentality.
frank, You're doing SO great here. I wanted to offer my support to you. I get the impression that the WAW's tend to respond better to DB'ing than the WAH's do. Of course in your case, your wife still lives at home, which I feel is a huge plus for you. You can do this, frank. I think she's slowly coming out of it.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Before I talk about tonites stuff I want to point people to Marty's thread (shark) which AmyC turned me on to. He really needs some insights and his sitch is very different than any I've seen.
So, today I saw counselor and told her all the stuff that happened in the past 4 days. She was shocked about the brownies incident but she was also impressed because she thought 'this is the work of a higher power for sure' (like AmyC said!)
She said she thinks W is definatly losing the OM. ANd we talked about supporting her as she looks for her own career - all stuff I have mentioned.
Oh, and one other thing. I have been on my own quest to define 'who I am' in this world. And I think I know now. I am someone who helps people find their strengths. It's clear when I look at my history. I said that to Counselor today and she said 'just like me, welcome to the club!'.
SO, tonite W and I are eating dinner, kids are in the other room. She finishes up and is sitting there looking awful. I ask her if there is something on her mind.
She says: I'm sorry. Me: For what? W: For not being able to be married any more. It's just not who I am. I can't believe I let myself suffer for so long and I know I can't do that again. I'm sorry for all the hurt I'm putting everyone through. The kids are having trouble in school, you are hurting, I'm so sorry.
Me: ok, did this just come up with you?
W: No, I've been thinking about this for a few days now. And crying a lot when I'm driving in my car.
Me: Well, you know I don't blame you, I know what a crappy life we were living, and in a lot of ways I'm grateful - we were stuck and now we're both moving forward. I'm nearly back at my normal level of ability and strength and I've learned a lot more about myself. So that means I can do 'great things' again! (jokingly)
W: I've been trying to be friends with you, I think I like our relationship better without the sex.
Me: Yes, that would mean 'commitment' and I know that's not what you want. Besides, we make good friends.
W: Yeah, but there's this empty place inside me that I need to figure out how to fill myself, and I don't know how. It was filled when I had the 'relationship' but now that's gone.
(????? Did she just say that OM is no longer a 'relationship'? After our conversation I had to look at the e-mail logs and no emails from him since Friday. Magic brownie nite.)
continuing...
Me: I know how you feel I have had to do the same thing for the past 3 months. It's hard but eventually we'll figure it out.
We talk about how we've been 'getting along' and stuff. She says she likes that we can be friends and that she knows being married is 'not her'. Mostly when she says that she focuses on the hurt she went through (and so did I). She's seeing the damage divorce is doing to the kids and is feeling so guilty about it.
She sees that we have our moments, times when we are 'good friends' hanging out. And she'd like to see more of that. I point out that WE are probably the best friends each of us could have because NOBODY knows us better than we do!
She agrees and says we need to meet other people and make other friends eventually.
Finally, I tell her my 'promise' I made: To be there to help her to reach her goals in her life no matter what.
She says she's kind of lost but knows she wants to do the Lomi Massage business and has no idea where to start. I tell her that if she wants I will help her with whatever I can but I will NOT take over (like I used to do) or do it FOR her. Nor will I give her money.
She kind of likes that and needs to think about what I'm saying.
This is surreal. I'm not sure what I am seeing here. She still definatly doesn't want to be married, mostly because of the hurt in our old relationship and her anger at herself for not 'getting out' sooner. She still wants to be 'friends'.
Before I talk about my stuff tonight I want to point people to Marty's thread (shark) which AmyC turned me on to. He really needs some insights and his sitch is very different than any I've seen.
Frank,
I once asked myself when do you call it. When I see divorced people or see want ads. I always ask myself, are you the one who wanted out or was it your S. Did you want out and not stay faithful to the vows. Or was it your S. Which one of you was the quiter. Or is a winner someone who knows when to quite?
If its true that my wife is sending me a message. That I either SHOW her the changes or its over then what are you doing? What are things in yours that are the same as mine? What advice do you have for me being that my situation is different? I have been saying and thinking this for as long as I have been on this BB.
You said my situation is like no other. What did you mean by that? What am I suppose to do? My wife says ALL kinds of things but nothing compared to what your wife or other H or W. Could my wife be just waiting it out until I say enough because she cant do it. My best friend thinks so and has told me many times. His comment is always the same. I dont know why you stress Marty. She is never going to pull that trigger and neither are you so stop complaining to me about this. He continues on, what is today Wednesday? youll be back together by saturday. Do you want to make plans to go to dinner and the movies? Then I always say F**K You! But then he listens to me as usual.
In fact my wife has always wanted some space, so what better time than when you sell a house (escrow closed on Dec. 19,2005) In fact she was looking for a place for both of us two weeks before close. Then I guess from what she told me, durring the same day it switched to just her. Go figure.
I might add that as my boys were learning to speak I taught them the following lines:
I ask my boys to say tell me "what the mind of a man" and they will repeat:
What the mind of a man can concieve and believe, he can achieve with a positive mental attitude.
I ask them: What kind of attitude do you have? They Say, "A positive mental attitude." And I ask how do we keep a positive mental attitude. And they say "with smiles and goals" And I ask, "Who is going to help you learn how to write your goals?" and they say "You are". I ask to see thier smiles and they show me huge smiles.
I then ask them to tell me about winners. They say "winners never quit, and a quiter never win" And I ask them, what are you? They reply "A winner". Sometimes I ask them to scream it real loud. (My wife hears this and knows what is going on)
I say to them how much does daddy love you? They hold thier arms out as wide as they can and I say "well that does not come close but its close enough"
I make them stand infront of the mirror and say how much they like themselves and give themselves big smiles. and finally I ask them who are MY heros? They say I am and mommy is. And I repeat thats right I only have 3 heros in my life.
Well you get the point and I'll get off of my soap box. But what am I to do. I live by these statements, my kids live by these statements and if they dont now, one day they will know what they mean. And when they are old enough, they will judge me by these same statemnts. How can I leave this marriage. I often think about what I have done by teaching my boys these words. Do these words impact my wife's decisions? She knows them too. She has lived with me for 13 years and has heard the boys repeat these words for over 3 years.
I have often spoke about the mistake I may have made in teaching the boys these lines with her. Because now I HAVE to act with them in mind, otherwise they mean nothing and I will be a fraud. Worse yet, when a father or mother teaches thier child something of true character and the parent does not act with those principles. Is it not worse for the child? I think so.
If I heard half of the things your wife has said to you from my wife, there is no way I could stay. And the other OM, not a chance. Infact I truly believe that if either one of us dated or has OW/OM. Tthat would put an end to this marriage and very fast. Are you blind or am I? Are you truly in a difficult situation, and yet your C says you have 80% chance of pulling it together? Then what does that say for mine?
Of all the times I saw the words "I am hurting please respond' and you got nothing.
I say this to you (one word): Winner!
Marty
My C once asked my why I dont or cant give myself permission to give up. I had no answer but I thought about those words.
Nothing happened. It's what it's always been. You're not "hearing" her. Remember, she "avoids" rather than "asserts"... which means she puts on a mask, has not presented you with the true reality; has told you what she thinks you want to hear in order to 'keep the peace'. But she can't take it any more, she feels trapped, and that's what I think you're seeing.
I feel however, if I start pointing out things to you, and I see many, and reason with you, that you'll likely again bite the friendly hand that was trying to feed you, so to speak. So I'm very hesitant to post much, because you probably won't like what I see, so what's the point? But I wished to give you a heads up.
Anyway, I feel for you, Frank, and I really feel for your wife. Let's see what happens next.
Marty, I don;'t have a lot of time tonite to show you the similarites with examples that you seem to need. I will make an effort tomorrow but here is a simple point:
Quote:
I ask my boys to say tell me "what the mind of a man" and they will repeat:
What the mind of a man can concieve and believe, he can achieve with a positive mental attitude.
I ask them: What kind of attitude do you have? They Say, "A positive mental attitude." And I ask how do we keep a positive mental attitude. And they say "with smiles and goals" And I ask, "Who is going to help you learn how to write your goals?" and they say "You are". I ask to see thier smiles and they show me huge smiles.
I then ask them to tell me about winners. They say "winners never quit, and a quiter never win" And I ask them, what are you? They reply "A winner". Sometimes I ask them to scream it real loud. (My wife hears this and knows what is going on)
I say to them how much does daddy love you? They hold thier arms out as wide as they can and I say "well that does not come close but its close enough"
I make them stand infront of the mirror and say how much they like themselves and give themselves big smiles. and finally I ask them who are MY heros? They say I am and mommy is. And I repeat thats right I only have 3 heros in my life
Good core values. ANd a good start but they are all about 'self' and 'acheivement'. nothing there about OTHERS and especially women. They do take up half the space on te planet and Marty, Women are NOT LIKE US! (men) they are wired differently.
When were you going to ask the the question that you don't seem to know the answer to, which is: How do you love a woman, and How do you know a woman FEELS LOVED? WHen you know the answer yourself you may find that your relationship will change. Read The FIVE Love Languages.
Nothing happened. It's what it's always been. You're not "hearing" her. Remember, she "avoids" rather than "asserts"... which means she puts on a mask, has not presented you with the true reality; has told you what she thinks you want to hear in order to 'keep the peace'. But she can't take it any more, she feels trapped, and that's what I think you're seeing.
Huh? She isn't trying to 'keep the peace' nor 'avoid', she is NOT trapped, she knows I have commited to giving her whatever resources she needs to start the business she has wanted.
She has simply reiterated her need for divorce and to try to be 'friends'.
I'm having a hard time making your answer fit the facts, please elaborate.
Quote: I feel however, if I start pointing out things to you, and I see many, and reason with you, that you'll likely again bite the friendly hand that was trying to feed you, so to speak. So I'm very hesitant to post much, because you probably won't like what I see, so what's the point? But I wished to give you a heads up.
What a blatant attempt at insulting me and throwing a put down, after I apologized for reacting to you last time. Usually after an apology we treat each other coordially, but you cannot do that? You had to take a shot, huh? Your attitude is counter to the type of people I normally associate with. Thanks for your post, but please don't follow my threads any more and post to them until you can stop throwing insults.
Frank wrote: What a blatant attempt at insulting me
I'm sorry you see it as a "blatant insult", I did not intend any insult, I was telling you how I feel, based on what occurred before. I'm entitled to my feelings, Frank. I didn't pull it out of outer space, it's completely reasonable too for me to think you may snap my head off should I post something you don't like to hear... and actually, look! I post my concern and you lash back calling it an insult. Wow... My feelings and my concerns are but... insults to you.
but please don't follow my threads any more and post to them
Well, I only wished to give you a heads up on what I see happening on your sitch. Since I'm a member of this site I can freely post on any thread I wish to. But I'll be more than happy to honor your request after this post, if you wish.
Huh? She isn't trying to 'keep the peace' nor 'avoid', she is NOT trapped, she knows I have committed to giving her whatever resources she needs to start the business she has wanted. She has simply reiterated her need for divorce and to try to be 'friends'.
I'm having a hard time making your answer fit the facts, please elaborate.
Frank, financing someone's business is not the same thing as giving them what they want emotionally.
I think my answer does fit the facts, her words, her wish for divorce, her recent crying bout, how she's been thinking for a few days, what she said to you the morning after the heart incident and her behavior since, that her relationship with OM is gone, her wish for no more sex, plus what I see of how you interact with her, etc., ... fits almost like a glove. Sorry you don't see it, but you and I know if I post any thing more elaborative, then we're just on a merry-go-round of denials and accusations and that bullshit goes nowhere fast.
I will suffice in telling you this, I don't think she can change right now. She's just the product of how she's learned to deal with things, and that's the path I recognize she's on. I think you and her need to work out some underlying issues that you're not cognizant of, so, do you think it possible to have her attend MC with you?
But then he listens to me as usual.