I've been trying to learn from the interaction on your thread and it is certainly digging deeper than some on this board. I had a micro-event yesterday that sent me into a real tailspin after I thought I was finally getting it.
I "stated" some advice in an email that I thought would show me as being supportive to my W who is to interview for a job. All I wanted was to show my support. I got a nice enough reply to the effect that she does not want any advice as she is quite capable and has a proven record of success at interviewing without my help ..... Ok, so then I dwelled all night on the idea that I pssed her off when I wasn't trying to, will we ever learn to communicate, is that my future, ....
With my recent stumble on my mind I wanted to jump in and ask about your offer to help your W if she does pursue the business.
How much do you feel you need to lead that conversation? How much do you think you can give her room and watch cautiously? I'm sure you'd be 110% thrilled at her individual success. How can you let her know you are here for her if she has questions or just wants to test ideas.
Guess, I'm back to how men "state" and women "discuss". Looking forward to seeing things move forward for you both.
Amy, we disagree, you and I. I do believe that I've shown respect and thought, then and now. I'm bottom lined, and to the point, direct, and do not skirt about, just to hand hold. I'm not a newbie, I'm not in the throes of emotional rollercoasters, no, I have a pretty decent idea of what I'm talking about, and my style in talking about it, if it rubs you the wrong way, I apologize, and take note, but I won't be brow beaten.
I attempt to be tactful, but what has to be said at times cannot be couched in very tactful terms to one degree or another. And a lot of it has to do with who gets the message, really. I've posted a bit on others' threads today, for example, and they were appreciative, which was nice, glad to help them. But I'm also thinking, "hey.. what I posted is similar to what I posted to Frank, and Frank was loud and disagreeable and put a spin on it calling it an attack. Not these folks." That points to Frank more than it does to me, when you boil it down.
Now, regarding respect, as you say we must show each other... didn't you just admit to calling me a puppet of satan's?
"Brutal" honesty (even when incorrect) can only be given by those closest to a person.
Whose rule is that? That's not true at all. Bluntness and honesty can be delivered by anyone.
Thus, my comment about you playing devil's advocate...which would actually make you not FULLY responsible for your words...
Oh I see. Just for the record, I *am* fully responsible for own words, thank you.
Quote: I attempt to be tactful, but what has to be said at times cannot be couched in very tactful terms to one degree or another. And a lot of it has to do with who gets the message, really. I've posted a bit on others' threads today, for example, and they were appreciative, which was nice, glad to help them. But I'm also thinking, "hey.. what I posted is similar to what I posted to Frank, and Frank was loud and disagreeable and put a spin on it calling it an attack. Not these folks." That points to Frank more than it does to me, when you boil it down.
Now, regarding respect, as you say we must show each other... didn't you just admit to calling me a puppet of satan's? No. I believe I said "operated like..."
"Brutal" honesty (even when incorrect) can only be given by those closest to a person.
Whose rule is that? That's not true at all. Bluntness and honesty can be delivered by anyone. Okay, I should have said that brutal honestly tends to be received better when it is given by someone close to us and/or someone we respect.
Thus, my comment about you playing devil's advocate...which would actually make you not FULLY responsible for your words...
Oh I see. Just for the record, I *am* fully responsible for own words, thank you.You're right about that.
Sorry Frank, no hijack intended...Amy, have you commented on my sitch yet? Dunno if you ever did in the past but I would love for you to pop in (unique situation...no...Part 2)
hate to hijack, but just to answer that quickly: In short, my wife had an ea, turned into a pa. We broke up a year and a half ago, but kept in touch, and got together every now and then for a lunch or something similar, as after about 6 months, I earnestly DBed and really stayed on track. Rebuilt my life in the process. We've gotten divorced, and just yesterday, she emailed me expressing some regret and looking like she's coming out of her fog. Finally! Though there's no great significance to that, it's just the path she's on. It's been a long effort and I've been pretty meticulous, as others will vouch for. I've grown a lot, understand a lot, and have been through a lot, for which I'm ever grateful.
Quote: All I wanted was to show my support. I got a nice enough reply to the effect that she does not want any advice as she is quite capable and has a proven record of success at interviewing without my help ..... Ok, so then I dwelled all night on the idea that I pissed her off when I wasn't trying to, will we ever learn to communicate, is that my future, ....
Of course you will learn, you are a willing student. You just learned that to 'support' her doesn't mean to give her advice. If she want's advice she will ask for it. Women don't want you to solve their problems. Support means just that, SUPPORT. I.e. "Good luck, I know you'll do great!" not "Don't forget to do 'A' 'B' 'C', then you'll do great'.
Quote: How much do you feel you need to lead that conversation?
Almost never. I wait for her to bring up the topic, or ask simply 'how is xyz going?' then very reverently listen to her words and if I see an opportunity I will make a short observatin inthe form of a question, that if she chooses, she can ask me more and THEN I can give her more SHORT feedback.
Quote: How much do you think you can give her room and watch cautiously?
I will only insert myself into her process if I see imminent danger or severe (and I MEAN severe!) financial consequences ahead. How would you treat a 'buddy' who was starting a business? Would you be constantly telling him what to do and trying to control the outcome? It's her life, let her live it.
Quote: I'm sure you'd be 110% thrilled at her individual success. How can you let her know you are here for her if she has questions or just wants to test ideas.
That by far has been the hardest one for me to figure out. Occasionally I will ask her 'how is such and such going' and IF she wants to talk about it she will. Then I'll ask SIMPLE questions like 'oh, your ad plans are still in progress? Yeah that's the hardest part FOR ME to work on too' as opposed to 'Your ads aren't done yet? Want me to help or do them for you? They need to get done!"
I think of it as the same as helping my D15 do her class projects. I can't (and shouldn't) do it for her, she resents if I TELL her how to do it, but I CAN help her if she asks - but to do THAT I have to be approachable. AND I can only be THAT if I never ever try to dominate the conversations or the projects.
Sure, I can do anything she can do better - in business, I've been doing this for a few more years than her. But she doesn't want ME to do it SHE wants to do it.
Just be a safety net.
Quote: Guess, I'm back to how men "state" and women "discuss". Looking forward to seeing things move forward for you both.
Thanks, I am rooting for you!
Go get "The Way of the Superior Man". I found it at the local Barns and Noble. It's of course on Amazon and is searchable. find it at Amazon - Superior man I like it, especially the sections on communicating with women.
Quote: Frank was loud and disagreeable and put a spin on it calling it an attack. Not these folks." That points to Frank more than it does to me, when you boil it down.
This is starting to sound like 'Mom! He started it!". It's not MY fault! He's the bad boy!
I don't believe you posted to other folks threads telling them how stupid they were for not taking W to the hospital when she was high on pot? Maybe you are are sarcastic to them but there is no comparison.
Oh, as an 'update' on that situation, I told this story to Counselor yesterday. She runs one of the most respected drug and alcohol treatment centers in the area. She said that there was no danger, and that I was clearly smart enough to make that call after I explained to HER what I observed and my experiences with this in the past. AND that if I did panic and took her to the hospital we would IMMEDIATLY be slapped with a 'being under the influence of a controlled substance' warrant, then they'd search the house and find the other brownie, take the kids maybe, etc... If I had done what you said I'd have a lot more problems than DB'ing right now. Luckily I was smarter than that and confident of my knowledge and decisions.
When you say that you call it as you see it, it doesn't help me accept your lack of respect for my feelings or the feelings of other people on this board.
In the case of my exchanges with you it was (and still is) clear that you want to prove how right you are, and how wrong I am.
I have not seen one word from you that indicates that you even recognize that from MY perspective you were attacking me, and perhaps say 'I may have been wrong...' or "I didn't mean to be hurtful". Instead you respond by digging in and defending your opinions.
You brought our 'issue' to the forefront again when you said 'Well I'd tell you more but you'd get upset'. You could have just made your point, and said nothing more. The added snyde comment was just spiteful. The only thing I, or anyone else I have heard from could read into it, was a statement to tell ME and ANYONE ELSE reading that Frank is a jerk who can't take anyones opinions if they disagree with him.
I don't dislike YOU, I just don't like YOUR methods of communicating YOUR opinions about MY specific situations when you FIRST attack, and then when I respond with some emotion and defensiveness you don't show any respect for MY FEELINGS but instead DEFEND your 'rightness' and tell me again why I am so wrong.
When I clarified the handling of my situation you continued to find fault. Nothing constructive came from you. No compassion for how I was feeling. Nothing.
Maybe I'm the only person who has ever been straight with you on any of these issues, so it has seemed OK for you to communicate this way, on this board. Hard hitting and never apologetic. Sometimes it's because nobody TELLS us what we say or do is hurting or offending them, that we never see it. I think we can all say that is true to some extent in each of our lives with our spouses, because that's a major reason why most of us are here. They didn't tell us.
Here is an opportunity to choose to react differently. You can respond with more attacks or continue to defend why YOU ARE RIGHT and AmyC, Myself and others are just wrong.
Or, you can pause and perhaps recognize that maybe SOME of your words and actions have been hurtful to others and that it's OK for you to recognize that when it happens and repair the hurt by using your compassion.
We're obviously very different personalities. My goals are to help people find their strengths through kindness, support and positive commentaries. I'll also use 'tough love' when there is no other choice presented to me. I've dealt with many personalities in my life, in large corporations or at the local McDonalds. Since I am a successful businessman and everyone I work with thinks very highly of me because of my INTEGRITY and COMPASSION I think I feel good about my ability to take criticism. If I COULDN'T then I guess I wouldn't be able to DB, since in this process we are taking the ULTIMATE criticism and doing nothing to defend ourselves.
I'm sure that you don't treat your W this way, just like I don't treat mine this way.
What are your goals? What do you live by? I would be glad to hear them.
I would like to put this issue to rest. I believe several people have voiced their feelings about some of the things you have said that they also saw as hurtful. Real growth comes from learning from others.
I read the book 'The Four Agreements'. A mantra worth living by. They're simple but direct. Here they are. The first one is the most important to me.
The Four Agreements:
Be Impeccable With Your Word.
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
Don’t Take Anything Personally.
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.
Don’t Make Assumptions.
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
Always Do Your Best.
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
