Trust is something that had to be built in the first place, when you were dating or whatever. So, it has to be built again. If your SO comes back and is ready to work on the R, then the trust issue needs to be explained. If you are honest with each other, it's a straight forward issue. Talk about it and set some rules. Be up front that discussion will occur, and that questions will be asked. Michele has some guidelines in DR, and there are other good R books about repairing things after A's.
I'm going through this, and it's not always easy. There are good days and bad days, but there are way more good days now than bad days. You'll never forget about what happened, but you can build something stronger. Michele's little article about Forgiveness has sustained me many times.
Unfaithful partners took time to get that way and they take time to come back full circle. It's a time intensive/trust building process. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen if both of you are willing to work it out. There are lots of stories of couples that have rebuilt the trust and wound up with something far stronger than before.
Can the trust come back? Yes. Is it easy? Not necessarily so, but is it worth it? If you wind up with something better than you had before, it's well worth it.
Hang in there,
Cliff
JJ
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I think there are differing levels of R talks and the level which seems to get the most attention on this board is the "sit down, be all serious" type of R talk. These are the type that I pained to have with my W and which I now believe suck hard.
If you think hard about it, what can be achieved from an R talk? I mean it's not like a planning meeting where a set of action points fall out of. We know by now that marriages don't work as objectively as businesses do. So it's like all the other things we have learnt here - do what works, don't do what doesn't work and actions speak louder than words.
If you are "relationship aware" and by that I mean doing things for the relationship (as opposed to for the spouse), there is absolutely no need to have a meeting over it. Now that my R with my W is working, I know now that it's all about the flow of love. If the flow stops for whatever reason, YOU gotta make it flow again and not by having a meeting over it.
Suit
JJ
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I was the WAS and because my H wasn't here to pressure me was the whole reason that I came to my senses. I was left to think about things on my own. If he had told me how wrong I was, I would have hated him for it. I know it is almost impossible to do but you have to let the other person think about things. My H was being so nice to me, that is the reason that I came to my senses. There is nothing you can do. The good news is is that the WAS IS having guilt. You can't not have it. You have to wait for the day that the guilt becomes greater than the emotional feelings from the OP. It will most likely happen if you can distance yourself. Once the person is getting everything they want, they will probably feel even guiltier. The other posters are right. You are the enemy right now. You are the one that "caused" her to look elsewhere. I know it's not "right" but that is the mentality. You just have to show her that you aren't the cause anymore. Just my two cents. I know it's not what you wanted to hear but you should know.
(continued)....
Yes, I did have an affair. Unfortunately, a couple of our friends know as well and that actually makes it harder. It is much better if only you know. The embarrassment sometimes is so hard to handle that I have thoughts of throwing our relationship in just because of that. That is something I struggle with every day. Yes, I did have a "foglifting". I have no idea what triggered it and it only lasted for a very brief time. But during that time, I told my husband about it. I truly, truly, truly believe that you being nice to her is the best way to go. The guilt will be unbelievable. Unfortunately, my H is trying to make me 'pay' for my mistakes and it is really pushing me farther away. Even if she gives up the OM, don't punish her for it. You can be angry, mad, sad but tell her about those feelings, don't punish her. There is nothing you can do to make a "foglift" happen but you can definetly be there when it does. That's my advice for you from this point of view. Just be her best friend. She is going to need one more than you know.
JJ
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The easiest way to look at what your reactions should be to your W is by asking a simple question. If my best friend was talking to me this way, how would I talk back to him/her? If you response comes out to be a negative one then by all means clam up. But, if on the other hand, you would response positively, friendly, then go ahead and express those comments.
To help with your emotions you need to detach and GAL so that your whole world isn't wrapped up in her and everything she does or doesn't do. It will help you get a handle on your emotions. You need to do this because if you don't you will pass up those times (going over to her house) when you could have a positive interaction.
Now, you may get to the point where you will feel like trying or doing something and are not sure if you should proceed. Best advice I can give you is to go ahead and try things, but be sure to look for the results. If you get a cold or negative result you know that you can't do those types of things again. On the other hand, if you try something and get a happy, friendly, or positive response, keep doing those things!
There is no black & white here just a lot of trial and error as everyones sitch is different to some extent. The only time things will get worse for you is when you keep doing things again, and again that don't work. Don't be afraid to test the waters, but be sure to look for the results!
JJ
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I've had so much good advice from the BB here, I thought it might help me to compile some of the points that really resonated for me and my sitch. I thought this might make it easier for me to refer to this way. Again, I want to thank everyone who is helping me. I'm sure I would've thrown in the towel by now if it weren't for all of you cheering me on! Gib
Raven: "By validating you difuse these emotions by not reacting the way he expects you to. Also, your changes will show him what you said you mean."
Chris: "NOW understand, you cannot change him! You cannot confront and force him to stop this. There may be many reasons and it may just be an AE. Start DB'ing. Try the 180's. Think about how you would normally act and do the opposite."
Chris: "Change your attitude around him, be positive (PMA) and do some strange things. Tell him that you have something to do, and old friend to meet and just go for a drive. "
JRB: "But the suspicious and snooping behavior might be having the effect of pushing him away, especially if it also comes across in conversation. If he comes back, it is going to be because he decides he wants to. The snooping doesn't help you make that happen. Perhaps you might set aside your suspicions and concentrate on DBing so that he will choose to come home."
Kimiko: "You can either fight FOR your marriage, or you can fight ABOUT your marriage. Once you decide what you want, stick to it. " "I'm just looking at every possible angle for your husband's behavior, instead of assuming the negative. Trust me, if you look hard enough, you can find bad in everything. Work harder to look for the good. " "I'm just looking at every possible angle for your husband's behavior, instead of assuming the negative. Trust me, if you look hard enough, you can find bad in everything. Work harder to look for the good." "Spend all that energy on developing ways to make being home with you and the children the least stressful and demanding as possible. " "It's true, people gravitate toward happiness versus pain. Why not be that happiness your husband can be attracted to? Don't be needy to him, let him come to you. When he starts to feel like you expect him to hug you, and touch you, then he'll feel less like he wants to, and more like he has to, to avoid you being angry."
Dawn: " pull the focus from him to YOU"
Sage: "SHOW him that your changes are lasting."
Sage: "I would focus on GAL and strengthening your sense of yourself...h will certainly notice and if he expresses concerns that you are "moving on" you could say "I had just forgotten how much I enjoyed (yoga, cooking, dancing, whatever). I love getting that part of my life back". You know?"
Sage: "what are you doing to make your M a wonderful haven for him? What did you guys used to enjoy doing together? Bring some of that back into the M...have a wonderful smelling dish cooking on the stove or a funny video to watch"
Ay: "I would strongly recommend to go out tonight and NOT to initiate any R related discussion. Just try to have a good time."
Jacks: "i think the schedule is really positive,it sounds like he's making a real effort to see you and the kids and spend a lot of family time."
Jacks: "look sexy, flirt,have a few drinks, be fun, etc. "
Blue: "No R talks !!!! Period !!!! He will come to you .. stay upbeat. Don't let all this get your spirits down .. be happy for you and kids .. H will be drawn to it. Get back into the gym! If his life is so boring .. he will miss you and the kids. Make home a place he wants to come to. How are your flirting skills? Work on them! I bet he will take notice! A wink .. a pat on his behind .. a quick squeeze .. little things! Get his attention!"
Jacks: "STOP DOING WHAT ISN'T WORKING!"
PLWife: "I agree lay off on the touching and trying to hard. He'll come around when he's ready, but let him do all of that. Think of it the other way, through his eyes. Put yourself in his place, and try seeing what he is seeing. No one wants a weak person to be around. They want strong, fun people. Hes not ready to be physically close when you want it. Just let him do the work of trying to get close. It sounds like he is fighting with himself. He thinks he wants to be with you, but he's just too sure as well. Another thing to do is stop calling. Let him do the calling and the talking. When hes ready he will. But don't push. Time heals."
JJ
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Quote: He 's going to come home from work soon and I don't know what to do.
The answer is: ACT AS IF!!!! Have a glass of wine while you make a lovely meal, put on some fun music that you really enjoy - get yourself into a really good mood before he gets home. Dress nice, put on some perfume. Act as if you're going to have a lovely evening together. DON'T REACT - ACT. If he comes home in a lousy mood, say something like "oh, poor baby, what a lousy day - here would you like some wine? Can I get you an appetizer?" Ignore his bad behaviors, reward his good ones. I remember doing this one night when my H came home in a really foul mood - took all evening. but eventually his mood lightened, and at bedtime, HE reassured ME that his bad mood wasn't about me - without me asking!
So don't let HIS bad mood put you in a BAD mood - let your GOOD mood put him in a GOOD mood.
It works!
Ellie
JJ
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Quote: So even though I know I could work it out with my husband, I'm not in love with him. A peaceful, polite business relationship is not what I want in a marriage.
"In love" comes and goes in a relationship (it is usually the euphoric, and short-lived period at the beginning of a relationship--the time before we discover the other person is not perfect and does not see things the same way as we do). That is not to say that we should not want to have some of that "in love" feeling from time to time in our M. Michele has written about this and I think it boils down to both spouses making a DECISION to DO loving ACTIONS, and watch the "in love" feelings develop from that, instead of only doing loving actions when we feel "in love." That's what DBing is all about, DOING loving actions and seeing the change that it can make in the way our S feels about themselves and us.
That is what acting "as if" means. Ask yourself this: how would you act toward your H IF you were "in love" with him? Do those things and see what happens in your R. This is not a quick fix and results may not be fast, but you and H may be surprised to find "in love" feelings returning. You do not have to settle for a peaceful, polite business-like M, but you and your H will have to do something to go beyond that and not just be carried along by whatever feelings you and H have or don't have at any particular time.
Shrek
JJ
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Dear alienswife, First of all, welcome. You have made it to the right place. The wise folks here will be able to help you stick to your goal of detaching.
Detaching is probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your entire life, but you can do it. You've already gotten great advice.
First of all, you really need to decide in your heart of hearts that detaching is important. It's not kind of important, it's really essential. You have to internalize that. Your marriage depends on it.
Secondly, you have to keep yourself busy, just like your friends here have said. Focus on you and making yourself a better person. Figure out what you need to change so that your life feels more enjoyable, even without him at the moment.
Each time you feel the urge to be clingy, ask yourself, "If I do this, what is going to happen next?" Really envision the outcome. Then don't do it. Do something else instead. Keep track of what you are doing to resist the temptation to be needy or cling. Once you start this list, you will be surprised at how much self control you really have. You will feel proud of yourself and detaching will then become easier.
Let us know how things are going. Michele
-------------------- The Divorce Buster
JJ
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I can see in your story that you really are a changed woman! It's wonderful that you were able to stay cool during all that happened. I'm completely new to all of this, so I'm treading carefully through this post. But here's my 2 cents.
I think that the fact that he came home and is still there tells you that he's thinking. And he has noticed the change in you. At the same time, I can understand his fear that you may go back to being the same angry person you were before. But this is where it takes time for both of you to adjust to the changes. At some level, most of us don't believe that people can change so quickly and that such a dramatic change can appear to be manipulative. I know that you are a NEW person...a different person, but it will take some time for him to start realizing that this isn't a trick to try to keep him.
I understand completely the feelings of alienation. My husband and I have been through that. And my approach to DBing has included knowing that I haven't always been good about letting him know that I love him. I hadn't been appreciative, etc. Was he feeding you a load of crap when he said it would be different if he had felt your love? I don't know. You do. You know your husband.
I'm beginning to see that we are at a new start in our relationship. I am a new person. And I feel like you are at that point too. You have a chance to start over again with him. His memories of you are of the old angry woman. Now you can form new memories. HE'S WATCHING YOU AND SEEING CHANGES IN YOU.
My overall impression is that he does want things to work out, but that he doesn't want it to be like it was before. You know that it won't be like it was before because you're different. I've read several times that he's said 6 months from now he doesn't want you to be angry again. Maybe it will take 6 months for him to see that this is real.
A few things that have been helpful for me:
1. Make a plan. This took me some time to realize how important this step is. What do you want? Where do you want your relationship to be? How will you know that your relationship is where you want it to be?
2. Then figure out what actions will help you reach those goals. Think back to things he's said to you. That was difficult for me because I had clouded a lot of what he had told me and just chalked it up to him not understanding me or whatever. What are you doing when you are getting along? For example, I realized that my husband I get along well and talk, etc. when we go out for a walk together in the evening. So I ask him to go for more walks.
With your recent experience with him, you've found at least one behavior that works: look at how he responded when he saw that you didn't get angry and behave like the old you would have.
Keep up with yourself. Do whatever you have to do to keep yourself calm right now.
About the 180 being more warm to him, it has been working for me. I never pursued my husband. The pattern has been I get angry and he comes crawling to me. One of my 180s has been that I am more warm to him. But be careful with that; I've had to back off because I sense that I am becoming pushy. It's also easy to come on too strong...and he needs time to adjust. It's worth a try though. And if doesn't yield positive results, try something different.
One more thing, I have avoided all relationship talks. When we spend time together, it's to enjoy each other's company. Talking about the relationship is too much of a reminder that there was/is a strain. I've been recreating the friendship between us and changing my focus. In the process of developing the friendship, he gets the chance to see the changes and realize what he would be losing if he loses you.
All that said, Aly, give it time. Hang in there. I'm praying for you (and have been daily).
Alli
JJ
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This is what Michele said on the DR Book Club thread about using LRT. I thought it was a helpful guideline. ___________________________________________ Yazzie and Wintergirl-
You both have questions about 180's and the Last Resort Technique- Can they go too far?
Look, the important part of doing a 180 is introducing the unexpected into your interactions. This doesn't mean that you should completely withdraw. Nor does the LRT mean that either. Doing the LRT means stopping the begging, pleading, pursuing, getting a grip on your own life and being more upbeat. But if your spouse starts to take an interest, that's a good sign and you should be available. Not clingy, mind you, but interested.
I think it might be tempting to back off completely and stop having contact because it might feel safer not to interact at all.But neither technique suggest your doing that. Re-read page 130. I wrote that if your spouse starts to show interest, readers should "Be loving in return, but do not become overly excited or enthusiastic."
But the bottom line is this, the proof is in the pudding. If your spouse is responding lovingly, you're on the right track. If not, you have to finetune what you're doing. Hope this helps. Do re-read the section on the last resort technique. Okay? Michele -------------------------------------------
JJ
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