Quote: Have you asked openly what you can do for your W in day to day life to make things for her better? I'm just curious, because when you do for her, it's natural for her to want to do for you, and if she's not, then it seems you might not be reaching her where you should.
That's the key, really. No judgement on anyone's sitch but my own, but once I started doing that as best I could, coupled with eliminating all A/OM talk and all R talk she didn't initiate or wasn't interested in, I've seen a HUGE difference in my W.
Realized what I was doing much of the time was meeting the needs I WANTED her to have instead of the ones she actually had.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Thanks for the comments guys. I think I might need to clarify and hopefully this is not going to come off as defensive.
Quote: Nothing like nagging to kill the mood. Maybe you can hint through your actions - because I do think it's important to express your sexuality - in a way that is playful and/or suggestive rather than the intellectual/verbal communicating you're doing now.
I don't verbally communicate much at ALL. That's why I said that I really didn't intend to say "I plan to have sex tonight, wanna join me." I should have said more clearly that I didn't mean to say that because I KNOW that things like that killed the mood for her in the past. I am ALL about action these days and saying VERY little. It's one of the things I found out she hated and I am trying as best I can to not only respect HER wishes, but also honor who I want to be, and that is someone who isn't afraid of being assertive because I may be rejected. I don't take that personally anymore and I really think it's leading to a more comfortable R in terms of intimacy. It's not like I have all the answers regarding my R and sexuality in it but this is one area where I have done a lot of soul searching and come up with a LOT of things I'd like to change in this respect and I found that through ALL my relationships I have done certain things, like being VERY passive/aggressive about sex, that I would like to change.
Quote: Have you asked openly what you can do for your W in day to day life to make things for her better? I'm just curious, because when you do for her, it's natural for her to want to do for you, and if she's not, then it seems you might not be reaching her where you should.
Yes, and this has made the biggest difference. I did this early on, when things started to get better and while she didn't really tell me much, between what she did say and what I figured out on my own, I managed to understand more than ever what I had not really been doing all these years. And that brings your next point...
Quote: he thing that's really troublesome to me when I read about this, and take this with a grain of salt because I don't know anything and I'm basing this on many levels of assumption, is: you seem to be really reworking yourself around your wife, who doesn't seem too interested in building a new, more developed relationship. It seems you're accommodating her and she isn't contributing much, whether it be vision of where the relationship should be or action to get it there. I know this DB stuff leads us to believe that we have to shoulder the weight and do the hard work in order to get to the point where our spouses will cooperate, but it seems to me that you are there and she isn't cooperating too much. It's like she's doing you a favor by staying and allowing you to have her as your wife.
Well, to be honest muddle, I have had that last thought myself but then when I take stock and see if I am REALLY doing things just for her, or if I am doing things that I really enjoy doing/would do for ANY woman in my life, or anybody for that matter that I cared about, I see that I am indeed just being me. For her part, she IS doing a lot more than really she has ever done in terms of reaching out to me, both literally and figuratively. Her contribution to forming our "new" marriage IS less than mine at this point but like many WAS's, I think her idea is to just forget it ever happened and move forward. Since we have had the "forgiveness" conversations (the one where I forgive her, and the one where I tell her she will eventually need to forgive herself) I feel ok with just moving forward. I don't need her to be vocal about her "vision" but I do need to hear certain reassurances from her and most importantly, I need her ACTIONS to match the little she does say about being committed to us and our future together.
So far, her actions of late are 100% transparent. Ever since we had that open talk about how all I really ever needed from her is to have her understand how certain things affected me, i.e. the long periods of time where she was not answering her phone, etc, and she said she totally understood that, things have been MUCH better. She said she never really thought about that. She would just get angry at me for my reaction and never stopped to realize how despite my best efforts, those kinds of things affected me.
Quote: I'm sure I'm misreading a lot here, but I caution you to be aware that you're either setting the precedent or feeding into one that's already set that she can do as she wishes and you'll be happy as long as she doesn't leave you. I know you want more, even if it's just the sex that's lacking. I think this is the big carrot on the end of the stick for you that once you achieve you'll have little motivation for progress. That's far too much emphasis on sex, far too much pressure. It should be fun, not necessarily loaded with meaning. Remember (and this is something WASs seem to think the reverse of) that actions generate feelings. If you wait around for the feelings to act, then you may never have the feelings.
I agree with this. Profound my friend. I really think I have stripped away most of the pressure (you have NO idea how bad I used to be. I can't imagine she ever wanted to ML, and that's not just me taking all the blame, that's REAL!). I THINK I have started to get my W to feel comfortable with me physically. In the past there was SO much pressure from me every time there was ANY physical interaction to ML that I suppose it eventually burned her out. I know the one time I had a GF that was like that (believe it or not) I felt that way. It was the only R I was ever in where I actually found reasons NOT to be around her because there was ALWAYS the expectation of sex. Wow, saying that sounds funny.
Anyway, it's NOT a topic of conversation between us anymore and I think my actions are affecting her, and HER actions seem to be more positive than ever...well...except for the no sex part and like I have been saying, I THINK that will be changing sooner rather than later and when it does, I REALLY think my opportunity to prove to myself AND her that I am capable of intimacy THROUGHOUT the house not just in the bedroom will be huge.
If we DO ML and then I don't physically pull away from her like I ALWAYS did for a few days after (i.e. her saying the only time I ever touch her is when I want sex) then I think much progress will be made and things will improve dramatically!
Things really are moving in a good direction in your sitch, I can see so much progress and in case you haven't heard this lately, I think you deserve a lot of credit in getting there. You patience and tenacity are noteworthy and are something for all of us to aspire to.
In the end, I know that you and your W will have a much stronger and healthier relationship because you have had the vision to see your shortcomings and to apply the DB principles to your sitch. She is a very lucky women to have you in her life.
I don't have any advice to offer, I just wanted to be your cheerleader today!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Thanks Rob, and no, I have not heard that in awhile, lol.
I do think progress is being made but last night was another "bad" night, as almost every Sunday night is. I gotta find a way to change the pattern here.
I really tried to change things but I think I did it the wrong way. I noticed that she was having "another" glass of wine and knew it was approaching the point where she would start to turn the corner in terms of her mood. She ALWAYS gets upset/depressed when she drinks a lot and for some reason yet to be told to me, Sunday nights are a time when that usually happens.
I asked her not to have more wine, pointing out to her that it ALWAYS goes badly when she does. She remained calm and assured me she was not going to have much more and that she was in a great mood. I said that she ALWAYS says that and then things go very badly (she gets sick, depressed, etc). After saying this (thought she was going to say I was "daddying" her) I figured she was going to get defensive but she told me she knew how it affected me and that she knew it had to change...and she changed it. Dunno really what that meant but she didn't say she was not going to have her next glass.
After that, it turned out to be a really good convo where among other things, she told me she was feeling great and extremely happy to have found some new friends that are all married and support her in her "bad times". These women all happen to be mothers of kids in my S6's school and soccer team. I like most of them but even the one I don't is ok. I am REALLY glad to see her happy about the prospect of her social life away from the family and told her that.
Like I said, we had a GREAT convo and at the end of it she said "bed time" and I agreed. I went upstairs and she stayed down to have a smoke. I must have fallen asleep because I looked at the clock and it was an hour later and she was not up to bed. For the record, there was no evidence of any phone calls, etc, but she did end up drinking more and by the time she came upstairs she was totally gone. It was not fun but she finally went to sleep. The only thing that really bothered me other than the tired old routine, was that she said she was upset about "what happened today" and that she wishes she could talk to me about it but couldn't. At that point she was literally almost incoherent so I almost don't think it meant anything. That and the fact that she was with me all day long, I don't know what she could have been talking about. I THINK she was just talking about her depression and such. I don't know. I learned a LONG time ago that when she gets like that, I just do a LOT of listening and things go a lot better.
Bottom line is that while I don't think her drinking is the whole problem, or even a large part of it, it's causing some VERY unwanted tension.
It's strange, I KNOW it's getting better, it really is. The drinking, the relationship, everything IS better but as predicted it's now MY impatience and MY unhappiness that is playing a larger role in things.
This morning, things got worse because I guess I was tired, both in terms of actual fatigue (3 hours of sleep does that to you) and in terms of the sitch and I lashed out at her a bit. She was still in bed and I told her I had to leave in 10 minutes for work, that I would take the kids but I had to leave right then. She got all pissy and stomped around like a child. She was as angry as I've ever seen her, even acting out at the kids. S6 actually asked her what she was so mad at. She calmed down at that point but was still an ass to me (as was I to her...wow, one of the only REAL fights I think we've ever had where both of us are just angry at the other) I guess because I had the nerve to hold her accountable for her own actions. She was still pissed as hell at me when I left with the kids. I managed to go back in (ill advised) to confront her. I asked her why she was treating me like crap when I was trying to help her. Well, she didn't answer me, trying instead to pretend to be nice and have me go away. I did, realizing that the reason she was so pissed at my "help" is because it showed her once again that HER choices and HER actions were causing stress on the entire family. On one hand I felt a LITTLE bad because I could have been UNSUPPORTIVE of her actions/behavior and still been more loving to her. It could have been done with a simple hug when she woke up, before all the fireworks started, in effect saying "Love ya hon, really do but...". On the other hand, I don't really regret how I acted because the message was sent that I won't just sit back and watch this anymore, or actually, I WILL sit back and watch but I won't save her anymore from the consequences of her actions, including MY reaction to them.
I don't think I handled it all that badly but to do it over again, I would have been more supportive of HER instead of just being angry at her actions. I just couldn't do it this morning and I don't really think I should have. She made the bed, now she can lay in it.
As of now, after talking to her on the phone, all seems well. She'll probably appologize and try to make light of it all but I think at some point that will stop working. It already has with me to a certain extent and I actually think it is with her too. I just don't know what it will take for her to "hit bottom" enough to do the REAL work of changing this behavior. She knows she needs to and after last night/this morning, she now knows I am not going to be so supportive of her when she does this. We'll see how it goes.
Rob, and all, thank you for your support. I can't stress enough two things. First, you all help me more than you ever know, and second, things ARE going well for me, despite the negative rants I go on from time to time. My PMA is still high and I think there is certainly light at the end of my tunnel.
Thanks again for the support and I will post more when I can.
You will know things are back to normal when you get mad at your W for reasons that ANYONE would get mad about, and you don't second guess everything you did wrong in the exchange. I swear, it has taken me 2 yrs post reconciliation to finally allow myself REAL feelings and REAL ability to just get mad and not worry about what mood that might put my DH in. I truly believe I could have just done this much sooner, but I just didn't.
Just because "things" bad happened in your marriage, she just doesn't have carte blanche freedom to do these things (drinking, etc) without appropriate and understandable reaction from you.
I sound like I am rambling, but sounds like you are still on eggshells around her. this needs to stop, for your own sake and sanity. I did it for much too long, and to be honest, unnecessisarily so.
I sound like I am rambling, but sounds like you are still on eggshells around her. this needs to stop, for your own sake and sanity. I did it for much too long, and to be honest, unnecessisarily so.
Actually, this is spot on cupcake. Thank you. Now that you say this, I really think one thing that has changed DRAMATICALLY in my R with my W is that we DO get mad at each other but it doesn't become this festering thing that permeates our R for days. This is especially true for me. I have learned to get angry, express myself and then MOVE ON without having to beat whatever the issue is to death.
That is what happened with all that stuff two nights ago and yesterday morning. By last night we both got it out of our system and were fine. Thanks again for your words, they really helped.
UPDATE:
W was REALLY sick last night. It always happens when she drinks as much as she did Sunday night. I was actually ready for it this time and FINALLY she went to see a doctor who basically said she had Panic Disorder and perscribed a med for that AND a sleep aid which should help a LOT. I can't say how big a step this is. We have been sitting in the doctor's office and walked out so many times. Finally she followed through with it. She was also honest with him about her drinking and he said it played a role in what was happening to her. She needed to hear that.
Anyway, today is a new day and I'll try to be egg shell free!
That is great news indeed, I'm so happy that she has taken such a big step. A few thoughts from the last few weeks...
-- when your W complains that you abandoned her far too often to take care of the kids herself, you seem to hear that she wanted you to take care of her and "fix" her. I hear that she wanted to continue to have a life outside of being a mother but that you kept her from that by being inconsiderate of her time. That is, she wanted space to be an adult and have friends and other interests, she did not want you to fix her or coddle her.
-- I recommend ignoring this point. For some reason I feel compelled to say it, lol, but it probably isn't very useful for anyone. My guess is that you'll get sex pretty close to six months after she was last with OM, which is the period they tell you these days is pretty safe in terms of STDs.
--Don't let your W dump on you, call her on it. For example, she seems to have been whining a bit about how she can't talk to you. (1) She can talk to you and is hurting you both and your R by withholding that kind of intimacy. (2) Whatever "happened" on Sunday which she did not tell you about is the real problem that is causing her distress and is likely a result of her own actions, again it is not your fault.
--Stop cleaning up your W's life messes caused by her drinking. She needs to clean up after herself.
--Maybe time for some directness -- "W, I feel scared and insecure when you tell me there are things you can't tell me about. Part of this is because of the A, part of this is because I fear roadblocks to real emotional intimacy between the two of us. I'd really like you to trust me enough to share with me what happened on Sunday."
--It seems like W is really beginning to make some real shifts in her own life, and shifts that are in a positive direction :-) This is really wonderful news and I expect your R will reap the benefits.
Best, Oldtimer
P.S. I probably won't have time to write back, but I do always check on you :-) I, Newtimer, and Mr. Oldtimer are all doing wonderfully :-)
Thanks cc, ot and cm (there, managed to abbreviate you all!).
To follow up on my last update...
Yes, she saw the doctor and he told her she needed to see her family doctor ASAP. He also prescribed meds for her. She has yet to make an appointment or get her prescription filled. I asked her about it later the next day and she said she was going to do both but I know my W and if she didn't do it by then, she likely isn't.
I didn't really bring it up for the rest of the day. Like OT said, I am not going to take care of this for her. I will support her any way I can but I am no longer going to bug/nag her about it and if the sitch gets to the point where it's causing too much pain to anyone, I will just have to deal with it at that point. I don't think it will but like I said, I have been WAY too hands on in the past.
Yesterday on her own (she saw a commercial for some kind of anti-depressant med) she said "Oh, that's going to be me isn't it. The stay at home housewife/mom that is addicted to anti-depressants for the rest of her life."
I asked her if that was what was bothering her, the stigma (she has ALWAYS said this bothered her). She said not really and changed the subject. I didn't pry anymore but I know it's one of the big reasons she won't do anything about this stuff. That and the worst of me suspects it's because she'll have to quit the drinking if she goes on the meds and she doesn't want to do that.
She also said "What's the use trading one addiction for another one?" I have pointed out to her in the past that there are a lot of non-addictive drugs out there and to talk to a doctor but she refuses to hear me. Once again, I can't keep being daddy to her in all this.
Quote: -- when your W complains that you abandoned her far too often to take care of the kids herself, you seem to hear that she wanted you to take care of her and "fix" her. I hear that she wanted to continue to have a life outside of being a mother but that you kept her from that by being inconsiderate of her time. That is, she wanted space to be an adult and have friends and other interests, she did not want you to fix her or coddle her.
OT, as always, you come out with something really insightful. I KNEW this but reading it drove it home. It's what I am learning now. She wants be to be considerate of her and her time but not necessarily to "take care of her". I am really getting that message and my response, i.e. actually DOING that has paid off for sure.
Quote: -- I recommend ignoring this point. For some reason I feel compelled to say it, lol, but it probably isn't very useful for anyone. My guess is that you'll get sex pretty close to six months after she was last with OM, which is the period they tell you these days is pretty safe in terms of STDs.
Point taken. We'll see.
Quote: --Don't let your W dump on you, call her on it. For example, she seems to have been whining a bit about how she can't talk to you. (1) She can talk to you and is hurting you both and your R by withholding that kind of intimacy. (2) Whatever "happened" on Sunday which she did not tell you about is the real problem that is causing her distress and is likely a result of her own actions, again it is not your fault.
She claims, and I believe her, that nothing happened on Sunday other than her getting REALLY drunk. She was with me all day and almost literally never out of my sight so if there was some phone call or something, it was extremely short. She said she was just rambling on and anyway, what COULD have happened in the amount of time she would have had? Again, I agree. I though it was BS when she said it.
Quote: --Maybe time for some directness -- "W, I feel scared and insecure when you tell me there are things you can't tell me about. Part of this is because of the A, part of this is because I fear roadblocks to real emotional intimacy between the two of us. I'd really like you to trust me enough to share with me what happened on Sunday."
I have been direct about this before and in terms of "Sunday", see above. She's SEEMED to be much more open in the past month or so, almost totally transparent as they suggest someone trying to reestablish trust after an affair be. It's almost like she's read something because that's how dramatic the change was. She calls all the time when she's out and doesn't seem at all unhappy when I need reassurance about things. It's been kinda nice but of course as the artist formerly known as LBS, I don't 100% trust it yet. Time...time...time.
Quote: --Stop cleaning up your W's life messes caused by her drinking. She needs to clean up after herself.
Yep. Agree.
Quote: --It seems like W is really beginning to make some real shifts in her own life, and shifts that are in a positive direction :-) This is really wonderful news and I expect your R will reap the benefits.
Yes and no. She is taking baby steps and that's better than no steps at all. The problem is that she still thinks she can do everything herself. She is totally convinced that everything can be better, her anxiety, drinking, social issues, marriage, fatigue, car problems, etc, if she just wills it to be so. Mind over matter plays a LARGE part in her philosophy. The really positive thing is that she is now seeming to WANT to change and that is big.
I will keep you all posted when I can. For now, things are even, not too up, not too down. I am most afraid of the status quo these days but I'll even accept that so long as she keeps these little changes up. They WILL add up to something much bigger I think.
Well, I'm not sure that use of antidepressants would count as an "addiction," but for the sake of argument, why trade one addiction for another? I say you give your W an answer.
An addiction to alcohol: 1) Damages your body. 2) Impairs your judgment causing you to make decisions that hurt yourself, your children, your husband, and your M. 3) Leads to actions that can cause serious injury and death involving yourself, loved ones, and others. 4) Creates and sustains depression. 5) Continues to progress and worsen as a disease over time with devastating consequences. 6) Creates an unstable and unsafe home life for your children. 7) Will probably lead to the end of your M if alcohol continues to be her chosen coping mechanism. 8) Makes one less and less functional in all areas of life over time 9) Makes her look haggard and old. 10) Leads to day-after regrets and hangovers that make one's life a life of lost time, shame, and sorrow.
In contrast, an "addiction" to anti-depressants: 1) Is likely to improve your health as you have more energy to exercise and eat better. 2) Unclouds your thinking, allowing you to make better decisions that affect yourself, your children, your husband, and your M. 3) Help you avoid actions that can cause serious injury and death involving yourself, loved ones, and others. 4) Alleviates depression. 5) May lead to not needing antidepressants at all. 6) Creates a stable and safe home life for your children. 7) Will probably really help make your M the healthy passionate R you both want. 8) Makes one more functional in all areas of life over time 9) Makes her look younger and happier. 10) Leads to a happy, productive life that one can rejoice in.
So, take her question seriously and give her your own list of pros and cons. Maybe she can come up with her own as well.
BTW, there is a difference between not nagging her about the meds or getting them yourself, and directly sharing your reaction to her not getting her meds.
"I am very disappointed and angry that you have not gotten those meds yet. I was very hopeful that you were in a place to move forward on some of your issues. But now, because you have not taken the steps you said you would, I feel very frustrated."
Anyway, please do say something. If you don't, it will come out in some other far less attractive way.
