Quoting Zebra: So, we explored this thing about making it safe.... Andy, are you smiling about this??? I am and was!!!!!
Oh Yeah!
Quoting Zebra: I had become so secure in assuming no trust, in having no expectation of her being trustworthy, that I underwent a small crisis in realizing that I would have to expose myself to potential dissappointment again. It scared the living Sh-- out of me. They both really, really, understood what was required for that leap of faith.
You’re one strong dude, Z. This post brought something I once told Mattie to mind…
Something struck me about what you and your MC agreed upon…
Quoting matilda: I'll just keep trying. Like I told MC today (and he fully agreed), I'm the stronger one in this relationship. I guess it's up to me to heal us both
You’re in control, that’s true. But don’t underestimate your H’s strength. Control and strength aren’t the same thing. You’ve alluded to it before in your posts… that the easy way out for your H would be to throw up his hands and give up. It would be easy for him to say, “I blew it. It can’t be fixed, so I guess it’s time for us to move on (separately). He’s showing a lot of intestinal fortitude by trying to work through his feelings.
About a year ago (May 24, 2001), I wrote a letter to my W. This is – in part – what I said:
Quote: I depend on you more than any other person. But, that’s not a bad thing. You aren’t my whole life, and I have the strength to depend on you. Yes, it takes strength to depend on someone. In order to do that, one has to be aware that if something happens to take that person away, one has to be able to carry on, and eventually fill the gap left by that person’s absence. Yes, I’d stumble, but I wouldn’t fall.
I love you more than ever. You’re my best and closest friend. I want to grow old with you. Not by stifling either of our activities or friendships, but by nurturing ours.
I love you dearly.
Andy
I’ve ceded most of the control in my R to my W. Does that make me weak? I hafta tell you that it takes all of my strength sometimes. You’ve read my posts. You know it’s true. When I was in control of my R, it was easy. Did that take strength?
Gotta say it again. You’re one strong dude, Zman!
Quoting Zebra: so, C was amazed. W acknowledged that I read a lot, that I have worked hard on myself. I began to tear. C pointed out that this was such a gift to W. W could not resist coming over to my chair and hugging.
Very, very nice, Zebra. I’m so happy for you! Your strength is paying off.
Quoting Zebra: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so, C was amazed. W acknowledged that I read a lot, that I have worked hard on myself. I began to tear. C pointed out that this was such a gift to W. W could not resist coming over to my chair and hugging. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z, You have truely moved closer together, and your W has shown you she knows this as well ...
Quoting Zebra: Sometimes, the only way to truly measure the progress it to compare against the way things were many months ago. For example, a year ago this week, I received the "lawyer letter". It's a miserably, painfully slow process. Is this the way it has been for others in "recovery"? z
I have no clue if I am in "recovery" as you say...but believe I am heading that way and YES, it does seem to be "a miserably, painfully slow process". I get the cringe all the time, but what puzzles me is that sometimes she does it, and others she seems to welcome the touch, the hug, the kiss. About a week ago, I got a giggle after a small kiss. A giggle, can you image that. Had you asked a couple of months ago if that was possible, I dont think i could have said yes!
We have many things in common, as Treesa told me we did, and that is why I am now here on this forum! I'll post more when I catch up on the rest of your posts...and when I have time...must get ready for supper now . Unfortunately, Treesa is making me buy a new shirt and new cologne every time I see my wife...so by the time we get back together, I'll be financially ruined .
Physical touch has been a slow thing returning to us. C has had us "asking permission" to touch, hug, whatever. I've just completely backed off any touch that might be construed as sexual advance. Actually, it's easier that way, because I don't have to wonder if I should, and she doesn't feel uncomfortable if I'm too fast. Since this has started, W has been touching in general more than in a long time. Things like coming over and sitting next to me on the couch while watching TV, and resting her legs in my lap. Leaning on my shoulders. Just casual contact when lying in bed. Before, she was reluctant to do ANY touch, I suppose because she was worried I might mistake it as an "advance". Actually, this is all part of W's inability/unwillingness to speak up for what she wants/needs. She needs to be not touched, not advanced upon sexually for now, but it comes across a distant and cold, because she won't state her feelings. Once it's out in C, I get it, I know the boundaries. I stay within, and we are both happier knowing the rules. I actually said that in C yesterday, in context of answering how this "homework" assignment regarding touching was going...
So, to C yesterday, I mentioned that yesterday morning, W and I were carrying on in playful banter, taking little fun verbal jabs at each other, and she says "I'm going to hit you now. I'm not asking, I'm just going to do it." I said "Beat me, please" and we cracked up. I told this to C and she rolled her eyes. Later in C, as I mentioned, W came over to me and hugged me, saying "I have to hug you now". She did, and I said "But you didn't ask first", and the C was almost on the floor laughing.
We are beginning to have more fun. We are still dating. It's really kind of nice.
wow... really great work Zed Man... Michele may need to use your exerpience as a case study... it is slowlee slowlee working. All that you are doing. Wife's thinking is changing... and you are making it safe for her...
Zebra,
I have been following your story from your first posts. You have made great progress. I hope that it will be soon that you can "ask for what you want" - I am sure the C is leading you that way.
It does surprise me that the C has not mentioned that it is critical for OM to be completely out of the picture. None of her contact with him is necessary.
Can you bring it up at C or by phone to C? This will be a sign of commitment to M and remove OP from the shadows, etc.
The C should take the heat on this issue - not you.
You mentioned when you started out - you both hung out with a group of friends - you 2 were part of same circle of friends. Time to get a new common circle of friends (w/pro-marriage lifestyle). I remember awhile back your W stopped hanging with "the sisterhood" ...W was starting to hang with more "respectable" gals, where does that stand now?
...about your last post ...
"wow, you 2 are falling in love again" LSL
Well, I've had a long time to think about this OP contact issue. It is in all the literature that they must cut contact. But, if I were to suggest that, I would make myself a target. If C was, she would be. I believe this "rule" of no contact has to be taken more as a guideline. I believe there are few rules.
Ther problem is that OM is part of her circle of friends. This circle has many positive things going for it, and is large. As you point out, she's no longer so fast and tight with the separated and divorced contingent, but much more involved these days with the married members. She doesn't hang out with the SSW any more, and she's not likely to accept invitiations to events that would preclude family participation. Overall, the circle is a good influence, and the bad influences are waning.
The point is that, Yes, I agree, contact with OM being eliminated would be good. Contact with the rest of the circle is also good. I see a trend toward her gravitating toward the positive influences and away from the negatives. I believe her that she has little direct contact with him. What is truly most important here is that she know that it is the consequences of her choices she must deal with. Her choices. If an outside influence (me, or the C) "forces" her to choose a certain way, the impact will be less, and maybe even negative. It will create a situation against which she may rebel, or blame for things not working (If I had done it MY way, I would be happier....). If she makes the choices, and things don't work out, she has no one to blame, and must take responsibility for her own happiness.
What this requires on my part is almost unbearable patience and detachment from the drama. I am getting better at it, and I'm feeling confident.
Now you point out that the C appears to be leading us in a direction. I have not missed that. I see her leading W more and more. I would not be surprised if at some point C does point out that OM contact is not good, but I believe she can see the futility of it right now. We are slowly getting to a point where it's safe for W to acknowledge this contact, to make it less and less secretive. As it becomes more open, it will become more OK for me to express that I would prefer there was less of it. If I rush that, she will just as likely go back "underground" with it.
That is why my latest "speach" was about how it's none of my business. I truly believe that. It's none of my business. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to an opinion, to a preference. But, if I had expressed that opinion and preference at the same it I acknowledged it's none of my business, what would have been heard was my protests. My acknowledgement that it was none of my business would have been viewed as "conditional", and the impact, the release of control and the granting of a safe space would have been diminished if not negated.
This is all part of the required patience, in my opinion.
ALl very good points Z-I see it as the same way because I lived it. IT was not until my H stopped trying to control me and took the focus off my trying to keep him at bay with the control that I really started looking at what I was doing, and feeling the consequenses. Nobody was MAKING me do anything-I only had me to look at. I made a choice and it was the right one. Rachael
. Unfortunately, Treesa is making me buy a new shirt and new cologne every time I see my wife...so by the time we get back together, I'll be financially ruined 
.