Jeff said - "I will not just walk away. If she wants to forget and totally detach, that is her call but I will not make that part easy for her. I will not just go away. I am through when I say, not her. Thanks Sheila." BBA said "I'm sorry but you are the one who comes across as selfish and controlling. Jeff's not getting his way and he's pissed."
BBA,I disagree with you. IMO Jeff is staying determined and 'still standing' as the term so many on this BB use. If you know Sheila and her story, I believe Jeff is referring to how her H stayed determined and strong when she wanted him out her of life, now they are back together and will be renewing their vows. It is very inspiring. Look up Piglet in Piecing and read up on saving a marriage. I do. I know exactly how Jeff feels, and I could make that same statement. Jeff doesn't need a 2x4 for stating his feelings, it's sure fine to do that here.
A long time ago a good friend here told me that 'you are a hard woman to leave'. Maybe that's the only reason H is still around, because I haven't given up and just let go of everything. You bet I'm tired and don't like this life as it is. Even Jeff told me that my hope is false hope. Maybe that's true and maybe that's bad, but H isn't gone and I'm not D'd. I don't do anything to make it easy for H to walk away, I tell him it's not what I want, but I'm not stopping him either.
It boils down to the fact that another person cannot make you quit, they can't make you stop feeling. Only I can do that for me, that's not something H can make me do, and only Jeff can do that for himself, not his W.
Jeff, stand strong and determined as long as you want. There are some of us who will stand with you.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
BA... I got the same reading fromt eh gift that you did. I waas actually thinking it before I read your post.
If two people could get the same meaning...imagine what your W felt!!! Giving it all up to God implies just that. It's ewasy to day the words but it's pretty hard to feel the feelings. I struggle with this too. It was very hard but absilutely necessary to realy and truly believe that I don't know the answer to the question. Some days it's easier than others. If you had truly given teh gift without any other motivation than giving...her response would not have angered you. You would have understood it and let it bother you. If you had truly given it up, there would have been no message other than I was thinking of you...because that is all it really would have been.
It's really hard to let it go...give it up...you truly need to do it in order to move.
Again..I agree with BA...I think it is the motivation behind the giving of the gift. If he is really detached and DBing...the motivation wouldn't have been to get any kind of reaction from the gift. It seemed to me that he was expecting something and then had a hard time accepting her response, which seemed very straight forward. I think that what BA was saying, and what I am saying is that the anger at her response is totally uncalled for and that he has said that he was detached and had given it all up to God. Obviously, he hadn't as his reaction to her reaction showed. I also want to say that no one has said not to stand for his marriage...what I said, and what I think BA has said was that giving it up means giving up your own personal agenda and it sounds like that point may not have been reached.
Thanks BBA. Can you please help me some more? I am sorry to impose but you struck a cord with me.
Or better, you found a button – if I do anything in the rest of my life it will be to act as to never hear or cause anyone to call me controlling or manipulative, ever again.
---------------------- I think the concepts of forgiveness and unconditional love and detachment are all bollixed up in your head right now. I also think that you have given nothing up to God. Because you, Jeff, have already decided what's the right outcome. You seem to keep insisting that you know better. ---------------------
I do agree that things are bollixed up for me right now. Some questions:
What is your concept of forgiveness and unconditional love? What is your concept of detachment? Is detachment giving up? Is giving things over to God the same as giving up? You wrote I decided on the right outcome. How did you read that in my post?
--------------------- WCW, I appreciate your perspective, but we are talking about two different things. --------------------
What are these two different things? WCW understood what I was trying to say but you and Fig read it otherwise. Can you expand on your thoughts a little? I will not just say I wrote it poorly b/c I am big on the written word mirroring how we feel. If my words “spoke” to you and Fig then I would be grateful to know what they said to you in more detail.
Fig – you are right the gift was meant to be just that; I expected no response. And when I received W’s email I just shrugged b/c it did not matter. But then for some reason over time it pushed me into anger.
It was not her response to my gift – it was what I perceived as her attempt to control me. To transfer the guilt to me: implying I am hurting the children, that I should stop my “wishful thinking”, that I should “stop” since it is “best” for everyone.
Yes, it would be best for her. But is was wrong of me to feel that way. I was the controlling guy all these years - dose of my own medicine. It reminded me that I have a lot of detachment yet to go.
I am bollixed up b/c on my last thread I spoke (not directly, but in so many words) of walking away and many here questioned that. I was asked if I were really ready to give it up. I was asked if I did all I could. I was reminded not to let my W decide when I should give up – only I should decide.
To be honest I was through “standing” before the holiday hit. But watching my children on Christmas morning without their mother there was too much to take. Something told me that I needed to “stand” by the M again. Yet I also need to stand as a Man. Somehow, I must let her go and at the same time demonstrate that I will be there for her.
I struggle to see how I can detach yet “stand” at the same time and how do I best give it over to God.
You're not imposing, Sugar, and I will help as much as I, in my limited capacity, can. I think there are others that are the masters at speaking to this. Like I said, Was2 is one of them. MGoBlue has some awesome stuff on the MLC thread right now.
It's hard in some ways, because you have not posted much lately, and so it's hard to see where you are, what you have been doing, what has been going through your mind.
That's why your post came as such a shocker to me. I guess I assumed in your time away, you were detaching, you were reconciling these things, you were finding peace and clarity. Instead, I saw backsliding.
Now for your questions: MY concept of forgiveness and unconditional love? Gee, didn't know those two were open to subjective interpretation. I think the example is set out for us in the life and death of Christ. Of course, none of us can live up to that, but that's the goal. Paul wrote in Collossians 3:13: "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."
MY concept of detachment? Again, not original to me, but I took it from the MLC resources thread, early on, cut it out, tatooed it to my chest.
And no it is not giving up; it is letting go. Read it. Re-read it. Re-read it again.
And no, giving it over to God is not giving up. It is surrendering control. Leaning not on your own understanding but putting your trust and faith in the Lord. He is never going to let you down.
He may not always give you the answer you want. The answer may come not as a solution to your problems but the message that you will have all you need to get through them. Accepting that is part of having faith, accepting that you don't know what the outcome should be but that God will always take care of you.
WCW is saying that you are proclaiming your intent to "stand", and that I don't get that, and her implication is that I'm not a "stander". I don't know how she makes that judgment about me, but that's beside the point. Yes, I do get that you have renewed your committment to standing, but what fig and I read is that you believe that you either choose to stand or you choose to detach. Because, again, detaching in your mind, means giving up.
And that's not it at all.
You can do both. You have to. You have to accept that even if you stand, you can't control the outcome. And you can't control her. The only thing you can control is you.
And you can say you gave her those earrings with no expectations, but I call BS on that. Otherwise, you wouldn't have reacted the way you did. And, yes, she was trying to control you. She was pushing back against your control of her. Control that she is determined you are no longer going to have.
You don't stand by giving her gifts. You don't stand by trying to change her. You don't stand by arranging things. You don't stand by controlling the outcome.
You stand by keeping your heart open to the possibility that if this person ever decides to come back to you and your marriage that you will receive them back with love and forgiveness.
That's it. Beyond that, you go on. You start living life for you and your kids. You take one day at a time and enjoy it. You count your blessings. You see good in people. You find your purpose in life. You try new things and keep the good and discard the bad. You dream dreams. You buy shoes!
You pray alot. A whole lot.
I'll just say too, that you could learn alot over on the MLC thread. We're not just a bunch of partying fools as some people believe on this board. There are some incredibly insightful, compassionate, enlightened folks over there that have been on this journey a long time, and have taught me so much. I know I couldn't have made it without them.
I'll just leave you with this. I just read it yesterday, and I found it very comforting:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish. ~ Hebrews 12:1-2.
BA...that was beautiful and captured what I was stumbling around to say in such an amazing and eloquent way.
That has been the greatest gift to me...the whole giving it up process and that there is a plan for me...even if I don't know wht the plan is...or never even imagined the outcome. There is a wonderful quote out there that talks about giving up your plan in order to have God's plan. I will paraphrase, if you can bear with me...
It says something to the effect of...if we limit ourselves to our own plan, or agenda, we have missed out on unending potential. Our imagination is nothing compared to God's ideas.
What I was picking up on was the idea that you gave her a present (which she didn't want) with a letter (that she felt manipulated by) to which she responded...I feel controlled and manipulated by this gift...to which you got angry and self-righteous. You knew she didn't want a gift form you right now...a sign of respect would have been to honor that request...not to put your wants and desires before hers. How much better would a simple...It was really nice seeing you. I hope you have a great Christmas. Thanks for stopping by...have been? there would have been no pressure or room for misinterpretation.
No one has even implied that you shouldn't stand for your M. What I was saying was that it seems like you haven't really let go of your own agenda. You have a reason for everything you have done, even if you don't want to admit it.
Sorry for the venting to follow b/c I DO value your inputs and I am not beating up on the messengers.
I just cannot wrap my arms around what you are saying. I guess I am dense. I have read the MLC stuff here and it only confirms what was very clear in my mind last year. Those who “stand” by their M are those who wait. Wait and wait and wait and wait. That is what I take away from all the MLC “advice” I read. I totally agree with the “live my own life” stuff – most of my 800 plus posts here recommend to others to do just that.
I am the last one to judge if someone chooses to wait forever; that is great – they are far stronger than I.
But I am not getting any younger. I have tried and tried and I am tired of trying. If a simple Christmas gift was wrong then I give up.
If my only choice is to wait indefinitely while everything I do is viewed as controlling, manipulating and wrong vice letting go AND giving up AND having the sick pleasure of kicking her a** out of my life – that choice is clear in my mind.
Yes, to me detachment does mean quitting and walking away. I simply do not believe you can detach and still love someone who has hurt you and be their best buddy while we cheerfully raise happy children who are far better off without a full-time father than with one.
After a year of this I do believe that the title of this BB should not read “Divorce Busting”.
hey Jeff...vent away...I understand your frustration. It is really hard to get to a point where detaching and separation aren't the same thing. All I was saying, and I can only speak for myself here, was that I believe that the gift wasn't just a gift. I think that to truly "give" we need to offer what someone else would like to receive. Your wife, clearly, it seems has told you not to give her things. No matter what your intent was, understanding her would have shown you what she would feel your intent was.
I can honestly say that when I was trying to distance myself from someone, detach so I could cononcentrate on myself, I would have felt that the gift violated that request. To ask for space and have your wants and desires thrust upon me would have angered me and made me feel like you were pushing a reconciliation decision on me. She clearly felt uncomfortable being with you at Christmas, no eye contact, leaving right away...and yet you still pushed with your gift and the letter explaining your desire to reunite your family.
I think the main idea behind detaching is to understand that your wants and their wants are not alligned right now and to accept that nothing you do to allign them will work. It is out of our hands. You need to take a deep breath and have faith that a high power will guide your course. You taking a huge breath and saying that you are letting go but really peeking doesn't count. It's that eyes closed, step out off the cliff...faith...the definition of the word is a firm belief even in the absence of proof. I have faith that there is a plan for all of us. I probably don't know the plan so I have to have faith that things happen for a specific reason...even when I don't have proof of the reason...even when I may not like the reason or want the reason or think that I don't even want the plan. My plan was to marry the love of my life, have babies, grow old and watch sunsets. God's plan might be the same only LSS wasn't really the love of my life or maybe God's plan is to help me learn a lesson about love and myself and how putting others first might not always be the right course of action....who knows? I certainly can't say that I am privy to the insights of God.
All I know is that detaching is about giving up your own agenda. I say that giving her a gift had an agenda. It wasn't just giving her a gift...it was giving her a gift with an expectation/desire attached. You expressed that in your letter to her. Giving her the earrings and saying...I was just thinking of you...merry Christmas. Thanks for stopping by...hope you have a great holiday. That might have been met with a different response but you changed the meaning of the giving by the letter you attached which is evidenced by the vigor of the feeling you felt when she did not respond in kind.
I started not to even respond. But fig was brave enough to, so what the hay.
I think maybe you might want to consider coming on over to MLC. I'm thinking you might be having one of your own.
This mornin' we're standin'. This afternoon, we're through.
Wazzzup with that?
Wait? Where are you getting "wait" in anything that anybody says on the MLC board? Do you read Snodderly telling anybody to "wait"? Do you think Lissette is "waiting" on Puffy? Do you think Angelica has "waited"?
See here's my problem. You are clearly a smart guy. But you have not read the MLC resources thread and the advice there, or you would know more about what you are talking about than you do.
You're like a lot of people. Nobody can tell you a d&^% thing. You know it all already.
Here's a perfect example: "Yes, to me detachment does mean quitting and walking away."
Well, that may be what it means to you. But that is not what detachment means. Again, have you bothered to read the detachment link from the MLC resources thread? Have you bothered to do the exercises and ask yourself the questions? No, I doubt it.
If you want to walk away, then walk away. You said this morning you wanted to stand. This morning you asked for help.
Now apparently you want to sit in the corner and pout.
