The psalmist declares a holy revulsion that must dwell in your heart against anything that challenges the law of God. If you consistently struggle to conquer an area of sin in your life, it may be that you do not hate that sin. One sin God hates is divorce (Malachi 2:16), not because He wants to be legalistic but because He knows the terrible consequences you will suffer from it. Satan's deception concerning this sin and all sin is so devious and the consequences of disobedience so eternal that you must develop a passion against all sin, for it destroys people's souls. Double-minded or undecided people (Psalm 119:113) are those who mix God's law with their own reasoning, listening to the voice of personal opinion rather than the voice of truth. Such compromisers lead the godly astray and are unstable in all their ways (James 1:8). If you are double-minded, rid yourself of lukewarmness, and purify your heart., If you don't hate sin, you will fall into it. Love God and hate sin, and you will always walk in the path of righteousness.
What is the verse 16 of Malachi? 16 "For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of lsrael. "To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty, " says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful
Do u know how hard it was not to want to share that with H as well? I didn't
Hi MamaG Sorry for the late reply. I'm not on here much these days. I'll try to answer your questions but have forgotten how to do the quotes (DnJ told me many times!).
Firstly, please don't call yourself names like "I'm weak". You sound like an incredibly strong woman & no matter how we respond to things, what we go through as the LBS is horrendous. We become a fraction of ourselves and then have to make a choice to do something differently. I may have got there a little quicker than you (or not) but it really wasn't easy. I work as a behavioural psychotherapist so arguably I had a bit more to draw on than others.
I think your question was about why I thought the difference in income/jobs was a trigger to MLC? Reflecting back, I still stand by this statement but think it was a whole load of other stuff too. The reason why, is that H never had high levels of self esteem. He could have gone further in his career but he was avoidant fearing failure. He went through a period of spoiling us all many years ago & incurred a lot of debt to do this. As such, he ended up on a debt consolidation scheme, which further confounded failure thoughts. The more I paid for, the more it made him feel bad, he would withdraw, I would become resentful & withdraw intimacy, he didn't feel loved further strengthening his negative beliefs about himself. It was a perfect storm on the night he began his affair. He'd argued with both me and the kids, went on a works night out and it was the night his national football team lost in the world cup. The AP knew we were married but came on to him and he went for it. He's since confirmed all of this, stating he always thoight I could do better than him and never fully invested always expecting that I would leave. The rest is fairly predictable.
My decree absolute (final divorce) came through this month & I've cried a fair bit, grieving for what my life should have been, but on the whole I'm good. H is showing tiny (inconsistent) steps that he's moving forwards & hes been in therapy for about 6 months now. Him and the AP are over, he's said he wants me back but I don't want him anymore. I still care deeply about his welfare but he needs to do the work and move in a different direction to me. He's still not really seeing much of the kids & my eldest is super angry at him (I think the divorce released a lot of held in emotion). His focus is still on being cared for and not necessarily caring for others ie kids!
I'll take time to read your story MamaG but please don't despair and make sure you are showing yourself kindness. This stuff is really tough. I'm not through it yet but seem to be stable and holding my own thanks to the amazing advice and guidance I received on here. Please feel free to ask anything, I won't necessarily have the answer but am happy to share any aspect of my story if it can help a tiny bit for someone else.
Some interesting stuff that came up in my feed today. I swear, my phone is listening/spying on me.
Murphy’s Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
So, plan and prepare for it. Hope for the best, and be ready for the worst.
Kidlin’s Law: When you write down a problem clearly, then the matter is half solved.
50% of the challenge of solving problems is clearly defining the problem.
Gilbert’s Law: It’s always your responsibility to find the best way to achieve the desired result.
Take responsibility for outcomes and you lead a far more successful life.
Wilson’s Law: Prioritize knowledge and learning, and money will continue to flow.
The easiest way to make money is to be a constant leaner. Keep reading and always have a skill you’re working to develop.
Falkland’s Law: When there is no need to make a decision, don’t make a decision.
The most successful people make good decisions and they also ignore things that don’t need their attention right now. Don’t make decisions that don’t need to be made.
There was also a funny cartoon. Search dog hindsight cartoon. That more proves my phone is spying on me. lol.
Glad to hear from you. You sound well centered and grounded.
I agree that you need to tell the kids. Sooner rather than later. I think it better they find out/discuss with you and Mom than hear it from the grape vine.
The big message, the biggest message during that talk with the kids - the problems between you and W has nothing to do with them. You love them and none of this is their fault.
Kids are very egocentric and can take on blame and fault when it’s truly unwarranted. They’ll have questions. Be open, honest, and age appropriate.
Take care, and best of luck on acquiring the rental.
Good to hear from you Maturin. Yeah one has to do what's best for their life, DBing is the goal but in the end you cannot sacrifice every part of yourself for someone who isn't willing to self reflect or enact change. To me the marriages that do stand a chance are the ones where the offending spouse is willing to put in some effort and had some genuine remorse. I think the minute they double down on being the victim or geed their resentment towards their spouse, they have lost track of the plot. I don't think anyone on this earth deserves to be a secondary option in their own sacred marriage contract. Unfortunately too much outside influence and societal pressure/peer pressure and self entitlement tends to become the guide for lost souls. Do your best with your children and they will value that more than anything. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself the questions : did I do everything I could? , did I fight to my last breath for the marriage?, can I live with the person that I have become?, do I want to compromise my values for someone who's values are based on the moment?
Maybe one day she will show true remorse or regret, but forcing yourself and hoping and wishing for that to come is a fruitless endeavour
Could I get some more detailed advice on the financial stuff? I currently manage our accounts and watch like a hawk. In order to alleviate his own guilt, H is trying to do this "nicely" so I don't imagine that he would drain our accounts but I guess anything goes in MLC. I do need to figure out how to protect my assets and speaking to L is a good idea.
Good. Keep an eye on the accounts.
Some ideas for you. If any resonate with you and/or if your situation warrants them (in no particular order):
- Pay off joint credit cards. Cancel joint credit. Get your own credit card(s).
- Have your own bank account. Invest monies into it. (However, in most locales all monies are marital assets to be split if things go that road. A L can confirm your locale’s guidelines and laws.)
- job’s suggestion of purchasing gift cards is a good strategy for socking away some funds too.
- Ensure you are an authorized owner on all household bills and therefore allowed to alter or cancel any/all services. Lots of stories of folks being held hostage on an internet provider or cell phone bill by their angry spouse who won’t make/allow/do any changes.
- Speaking of cell phones. Split up the bill. Let H completely pay and look after his own phone. Along with his own credit card(s). You look after your stuff. Keep your credit score in your hands.
- Cars. Are you joint owners? Are you registered as such? Make sure you are listed.
- Same for other big ticket items. Motorhome, camper, cabin, whatever.
- Look into investment accounts too. Ensure you have full access to anything joint or your’s.
- Ensure you have access/authorization to whatever health insurance you currently have.
- Limit, no, remove H’s access to stuff that is your’s. Period. No discussion with him.
- Transfer half of joint assets to your personal account/control. (Again, a L can assure the legality of such action.)
- Document, document, document. Keep track of everything you do.
When I went through my situation, it was amazing how many providers, businesses, institutions, and such we/I dealt with. Lots of accounts and business relationships to notify/organize. Even down to the kids’ school/university accounts for tuition and music lessons. Post office box. Shares in the local coop. There is a lot of things acquired in decades of joint living.
On another, yet related note. My Dad is in a care home, which leaves my Mom living on her own in “their” house. She was not listed on many of the bills and providers and services. We found out many problems during one of Dad’s grim episodes. He was unresponsive and quite disoriented for some time. Found out that none of the businesses would even speak with Mom as she was not an authorized person on the account. (At the time, she was having phone and satellite TV problems and we could not get anywhere with them.)
When Dad came back to living and lucid, a few things got “fixed”. Mom, and I, were listed on all bills and household/life items. I was included, for what happens if Mom gets sick or incapacitated. Which brought up, power of attorney. Mom for Dad, and me for both of them.
As I said, lots of things to organize. When it’s all going well, we have no idea. When things go awry, it’s a mess. Getting/having things organized before, is so much better and less stressful.
Originally Posted by RegretfulLA
Yep - definitely a low energy wallower, but not really clingy. Avoidant. Rejecting. Stoic. I'm new to the MLC game so these classifications are all news to me!
MY XW was/is a high energy vanisher. She burns the candle on both ends. Heck, she’d burn it from the middle if she could. And she’s a vanisher. Poof. She left me, the kids, friends, family, pets, etc. Dropped the bomb during Thanksgiving supper and ran off with OM. All the way to his house 1/2 mile away. He’s my neighbour. And ex egg man. LOL! (Contrasted to Pattnee’s H who ran to the opposite of the globe.)
Originally Posted by RegretfulLA
The fact is, if I had a million dollars lying around, I would probably be more enthusiastic about H leaving. For me, the financial piece/security is pretty important and at this age, I'm not super optimistic about finding someone new. Yes, I'm only 53, but... ugh. Dating! It bothers me that the money is a factor, but that's just reality. Money is a big factor.
You are on two paths or journeys.
One is the emotional/healing path. Detaching; finding indifference; letting go of fear, ego, H (let go or be dragged); discovering your convictions; finding understanding, compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness. Becoming the best version of you.
The other path is the business side of the situation. The bills and kids stuff. With both sons being over 18, custody is not an issue (just major financial expenses like tuition and such). That leaves the finical stuff. Joint expenses and splitting of assets, anywhere from current status to fully financially separate. There is a lot of room along that scale.
While traversing either path, stick to that path. Do not mix business with your healing. Do not mix emotions into your business direction and decisions. Yes, the two paths do/can complement each other, and there will be some overlap. Do effort to keep the delimitation between the two paths as least nebulous as you can.
While on the business side, remain business-like. Facts, logic, reason. Look to those when making plans or decisions. You don’t have a million dollar hidden somewhere (I didn’t either. Nuts!), yet you have something. Do you own your house? No mortgage? Or do you rent? Know your assets. Etc. Speaking with a L will show you your best case and worse case scenarios, and your likely case, if H pushes things all the way to divorce. Information is power! Then, now, you can make forward business-like plans.
Yes, financial protection and security is very important. Especially at our ages, or older. I’m 56. My work life, and opportunities to earn are mostly behind me. Security and protection are much needed/important than when I was in my twenties.
As I mentioned, lots of room along the financial scale. Lots of room to negotiate. The big thing from my experience, you have a much better chance at agreement or the MLCer following through if they feel/think the idea is their’s. Let H lead the way. Takes some finesse sometimes, and in no small part biting one’s tongue. (An example of overlap there. Good for business and your healing. )
I’m a big proponent of leaving the heavy lifting to the spouse who is wanting out. However, ensure you have financial protection and security. If you need it, if it’s lacking - get it!
Originally Posted by RegretfulLA
Has anyone made it through an MLC without some serious collateral damage?
MLC is horrible! Absolutely horrible!
There is plenty of damage. And lots of collateral damage. The term Bomb Drop is most apt. However, the damages do not cease after BD. Depending on the MLCer, their running behaviours, their past unrealized unreconciled traumas, pains, and torments there will be more waves of destruction.
So, no. There is always serious damage, both directed and collateral. The big question and focus of the LBS - has anyone healed from such damages?
Unequivocally, yes! People can and do heal.
First and foremost is the LBS. That emotional/healing path. You and the kids and friends and family. All can heal. All can come through this, better than before. Most LBS would not, even if they could, give up their hard-eared gains to not have their situation happen. The journey we were forced upon is that profound. It’s a golden opportunity. Do the inner work. Grow and heal.
Does the MLCer heal? Maybe. Some do. Some run for the rest of their days. Their path, the damages they inflict upon us, is more about them than us. In fact, their destruction of self, that drive and need to relive their youth, to relive all they feel they missed out on, damages them far more than the collateral pain to us from the shrapnel flying around.
Originally Posted by RegretfulLA
And also - the stages of an MLC - are those for the MLC'er or the LBS?
Remember, it’s a guideline. Everyone is different and individual, therefore their crisis is different and individual. Yet, there are similarities, an almost script they more often than not do follow.
Running/replay is by far the longest of the stages. Their running behaviours and activities are bewildering and quite irrational. Realize the MLCer is driven emotionally. They are simultaneously trying to numb their pain and darkness while trying to feel something. They are consumed by their depression and unrelenting unreleased past and demons.
They become the opposite of who they were. Desperately trying to find happiness and end their pain. And desperate people do desperate things.
The LBS usually gets blamed for the MLCer’s pain. The MLCer doesn’t realize, cannot accept or look towards themselves or their past (yet) as cause. Their hurt/broken mind simply cannot for they would shatter. As such, they blame their spouse, or kids, or dogs - whatever, whomever is close by. The LBS getting the lion’s share of that.
MLCers display a lack of empathy; their empathy chip is broken. A result of their own emotions being cranked to eleven. They have no bandwidth for anyone else’s.
Plenty of less than stellar decisions, behaviours, and life choices occur when one is so consumed. So desperate. So depressed. Emotional decisions lead to regret. So, on top of everything else, the MLCer behaviours and such, deepen their turmoil.
The LBS has stages as well. Basically, following the steps of processing their grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Our situations are multifaceted, and we exist in and experience many stages at the same time. As we heal, as we release our anger and accept, more things are revealed to us. New items starting their own grief process, while others are complete or nearing acceptance.
When starting, detachment is the single best thing one can do. Becoming no longer uncontrollably dragged around by our spouse’s words and/or behaviour. It’s the first major milestone along our journey. A journey made up of many small steps. For me, some were just getting out of bed, or speaking with a lawyer. More and more steps. Slowly they accumulate. And before you realize you are somewhere else.
To that end, it’s good to figure out one’s headings. Those deeply held values, convictions, and beliefs. Strengthen those which serve, craft those which you aspire to, and discard those which no longer serve. Feelings are fleeting, and thoughts flit just as easy, yet beliefs are slow to change. It’s that quality that makes one’s values excellent headings. The shortest way through this quagmire is a straight line. The less one slogs around in circles the better it is.
Anyhow, just some thoughts for you during this raining day here. I had plans to paint some windows. Ha, the rain put a stop to those.
Hi everyone, checking in here to provide an update and say hello. My sitch continues to develop and I am doing well - hard to believe it's been 8 months since DDay. I feel like a different person now, and am content in a way I did not think would be possible back then. I continue to work on being centered and detached and have reacquainted myself with the self confidence I felt before my marriage deteriorated.
W and I still live together but I have filed D and am in process of negotiating what that looks like with her. I've been diligently watching the housing market in our area and am going to see a rental property today that is right around the corner - walking distance - from our current home and the kids' school. Securing this home would be a small win from the standpoint of helping all of us get used to life after divorce.
My kids still do not know but we plan to tell them within the next two weeks. Unfortunately the news has leaked out to our social circle and beyond, and has reached the level of idle gossip among people we don't know. As a result I am urging W to get to a point where we can tell the kids, but she is struggling. She continues to drink, party, and avoid.
I have remained highly involved with the kids and am loving every moment of it. Hearing them tell one another or their friends what fun adventures they've had, or how much they like a new board game we've played, or what they're looking forward to is so rewarding. My oldest S8 was given a year-end award at school for leadership and character and I about burst with pride at the ceremony.
I now understand how important it is to be patient with this process. Obviously I did not bust my divorce, because I decided that the boundaries that were crossed and the nature of my sitch was not reparable. (That was actually something that the DB forums and books helped me decide, ironically. I now believe infidelity does not have to be the end of a MR, but I also understand what the path to healing looks like and it is not a path my W ever demonstrated interest in walking.) But nonetheless I continue to DB in the sense that I take responsibility for my own self and path in life.
The stages of MLC are a guide, not set in stone. Each person is unique, therefore, their crisis will be unique. Some display similar traits, but because their childhoods are very different, they will act out differently. Keep in mind that depression is the main element of his crisis and he will be emotional as well.
About the stages, they are out there to give you an idea of what they do. The traits and the lengths of time will vary. Some go through the crisis quickly and others will be slow, i.e., like turtles. They tend to bounce back and fourth in the first 4 stages and some even bounce around until the very final stage which is actually acceptance. When he has finally completed his journey, he will reconnect with all in the exact opposite of how he entered his crisis.
From what I am reading, I would say he is going to be going out with the man who is going through a divorce. They tend to hang out with people who are separating/divorcing or already divorced. They like to hang out with single people as well. Right now, he is going back in time to the teen and/or early 20's years.
As for your finances, you may want to consider setting up a separate account just for your use. Invest in some gift cards just in case he decides that he is going to go on a spending spree. You will need to have a nest egg in case that happens.
Make a list of questions for a lawyer, but do not share the info with your H. Also, do not share anything that you read about MLC, especially the stages and this site. All of this information is for you, the lbs. You will not be able to convince him that he is in crisis. Yes, he has an inkling something is wrong, but it is going to take him a long time to figure it out. He will hit that brick wall many times over and until one day, he will tire and finally sit down and contemplate his life. Some never do this.
Do be sure to visit the other threads on the forum. They will help you along the way.
Thank you my friends. Currently H is out on a man date with his friend who is getting D. Bad. I don't like that. I like the friend and I think his D situation is different as in, W is driving it. Also, his cousin is having a MLC - met man at gym and decided he's gay. Third friend, also D - and he's been speaking to these three A LOT.
Could I get some more detailed advice on the financial stuff? I currently manage our accounts and watch like a hawk. In order to alleviate his own guilt, H is trying to do this "nicely" so I don't imagine that he would drain our accounts but I guess anything goes in MLC. I do need to figure out how to protect my assets and speaking to L is a good idea.
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Believe nothing he says and only half of what he does.
I forgot about that one. I wish I could not believe him when he says that he's going to move out. He's been so nice and reasonable and not bitchy lately, I can hardly believe that he will leave. But maybe he's being nice because now he feels like a weight has been lifted. It's pleasant. We are getting along. H has noticed my positive change in attitude but it hasn't changed his mind. H has been threatening S/D for years and this is the first time he ever seems actually serious about it; e.g., I can see it's not coming from a place of anger/reactivity. He is calm and it's scary. He seems to want to move on as "he can't imagine spending the next 30 years of his life this way".
H says he sees us as "friends" but I don't see that... he doesn't act like a friend most of the time. Today was rough... S18 and S20 are both struggling in their own way and I told H I was at the end of my rope. He said, "The men in your life!" Then he washed the dishes and spoke to S20 and tried to be reassuring. S20 is a total handful and having him home from college adds a lot of stress to the household.
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It’s interesting how they drop the bomb on special dates too. H revealing his “grand” be-a-bachelor plan during your 23rd anniversary celebration.
@DnJ - he didn't exactly break this news on our anniversary. I think he just has finally verbalized it and has decided it's what he "must" do. It was actually better than our 18th or 19th anniversary when I ate dinner by myself and then went to the movies by myself.
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What type of MLCer do you see H as? High or low energy? Boomerang? Clingy? Vanisher? To me, H sounds like a low energy clingy wallower.
Yep - definitely a low energy wallower, but not really clingy. Avoidant. Rejecting. Stoic. I'm new to the MLC game so these classifications are all news to me!
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Remain kind and cordial, with rock solid boundaries against disrespectful behaviour, and let H be
I have always been pretty good at GAL but it is hard to do when hurting. DB is hard, hard, hard. I already did lock him out of the bedroom over the weekend when he said he'd be home at 9:30 and wasn't. At 11 pm I didn't call, didn't text; just locked the door and texted him "sleep on the couch." Next morning he says, "Why did you lock me out of the bedroom?" And I said, because you didn't come home when you said you would, and I was angry. I need my space too."
A much older (and maybe wiser) person once said to me during first DB "Why would you want to be with someone so weak?" This sticks with me and I think about it all the time. The fact is, if I had a million dollars lying around, I would probably be more enthusiastic about H leaving. For me, the financial piece/security is pretty important and at this age, I'm not super optimistic about finding someone new. Yes, I'm only 53, but... ugh. Dating! It bothers me that the money is a factor, but that's just reality. Money is a big factor.
Has anyone made it through an MLC without some serious collateral damage?
And also - the stages of an MLC - are those for the MLC'er or the LBS?
Ok, that's enough for now. I will probably be on here rambling a lot just so I can get my feelings out. I'm pretty shell shocked, and combined with S18 leaving for college and S20 being intolerable, I am hanging by a thread. (At least my job is good - during last DB I was unemployed).
Unfortunately letting go isn't a strategy to gain your H back. It's a part of acceptance. Both of your H as he is. And the marriage as it is.
It is part of the grieving process. Unfortunately if you use it as a tactic - it's manipulation. And manipulation provides short term relief with some long term consequences.
Letting go is very hard. Re-read the detach section on the forum and then ask yourself... how can you detach from your H. How can you move closer to your needs and further away from caring how he responds?
Honesty and 2x4s are always welcomed - sometimes I need that.
Perhaps my updates are doing myself justice. I've been GALing and detaching to the extent I can stomach. I'm getting better but have room to grow. Having been in the dark to MLC and DBing until Feb 2024, I lost a year of valuable insight on how to behave. I've only been at it for 3.5 months and I have room for improvement. And, it doesn't help that I struggle with buying into the strategies.
I struggle, like I've read in other threads with the concept of if I let go, will H miss me or further wander? Laura Doyle podcasts provide tempting solutions which contradict 'going dark' or feedback to 'provide little insight to H's inquiries'. It's not black and white to me which makes my thoughts scramble.
Unfortunately letting go isn't a strategy to gain your H back. It's a part of acceptance. Both of your H as he is. And the marriage as it is.
Is is part of the grieving process. Unfortunately if you use it as a tactic - it's manipulation. And manipulation provides short term relief with some long term consequences.
Letting go very hard. Re-read the detach section on the forum and then ask yourself... how can you detach from your H. How can you move closer to your needs and further away from caring how he responds?
I am sorry you find yourself here for a second go around.
I agree with job, it sounds like H’s unresolved issues are resurfacing. The death of his grandma; his mother’s failing health; loss of his employment; his loss of wealth and status; the pending and very healthy and normal empty nest with both boys out in their own - all very triggering events for (re)kindling his crisis.
It’s interesting how they drop the bomb on special dates too. H revealing his “grand” be-a-bachelor plan during your 23rd anniversary celebration. Of course, he has no idea how to fund his plan. He will be guided and act upon how he feels at whatever given moment.
Do financially protect yourself. Speak with a L and see/know your rights and options. Just gathering information, you need not act on anything. Yes, H could do something like drain his 401k, or worse. Ensure joint martial assets cannot be remortgaged or liquidated or some such without your consent! If you need financial protection and/or security - get it. Leave all the other heavy lifting to H.
Time and space. H is asking for it, and is driven to it. Even the guest house in the backyard is too close for him. His confessed wanting to see other women and whatever other behaviours/running-away-from-his-demons-and-not facing-his-problems ideas he has; he is mixed up. Believe nothing he says and only half of what he does.
If/when H demands more space, you could cease laundry services, meal preparation, etc. Letting him feel the loss. You kind of got to let H steer his path/journey and let him lay in whatever bed he feels he needs to make. Difficult to predict what path H will go. Stay/leave, wallow/run.
What type of MLCer do you see H as? High or low energy? Boomerang? Clingy? Vanisher? To me, H sounds like a low energy clingy wallower. Well, so far anyhow. Once they settle into their crisis, they usually do not alter their type. To be clear, their path is likely the same, it’s just a matter of speed and level of destruction along the way. And all are slow! In speed, I mean their ping ponging about and jumping to their next behaviour in the futile attempt to keep their demons at bay.
You likely know you cannot steer this crisis for him. Efforts from you will be pushed backed on by H. Such efforts would end up being twisted and used for his anger/justifications/narrative towards you. Remain kind and cordial, with rock solid boundaries against disrespectful behaviour, and let H be. You know, focus on you.
I am so sorry that you have had to return. However, we are still here and others will come along and chime in when they have time.
It sounds like your h did not fully resolve all of his issues years ago and now, MLC has come back around and is raising its ugly head once again.
You know the drill...listen, don't offer advice unless asked, set up separate accounts for yourself, watch the joint accounts and just be a friend. As you already know, you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. However, you can prepare yourself for him possibly taking a flight on the Mother Ship.
I am so very sorry that you are here once again. Please take care of yourself. As always, keep the focus on you and what you need to do to protect yourself.
Hi friends, Glad this site is still around and thriving. It was so helpful to me 10-12 years ago when I first started DB'ing. (YES, it works, and we survived!)
I can't say the last 10 years have been easy... many bumps in the road but reading my old posts, it's a GD miracle that we didn't D back then. Things were really brutal at times, but with time, we've mellowed... old hurts have healed, we have come back together, and drifted apart again...
Yesterday we celebrated our 23rd wedding anniversary, and it was actually lovely and we had some good conversations about "us", but H is dead set on this idea of moving out and being a "bachelor". We are approaching an empty nest with S18 leaving for college in Sept and H is just convinced that he needs some time on his own. The problem is, we have no money for this.
I'll try to keep this story short but H had a semi-traumatic upbringing with a very unstable mother who was in and out of the house. She also had psychiatric problems. She was loving, but extremely unreliable. (I am the opposite: extremely reliable, not super lovey-dovey).
Last summer, H's grandma died and H's mom, who was already in poor health, ended up in a psychiatric hospital. Now H's mom has her psychiatric issues under control, but has lost nearly all of her motor function and will probably be in a nursing home from here on out. Understandably, this has taken a toll on H.
H worked for a company that had an unsuccessful IPO and we went from being fabulously wealthy (on paper) to having a little extra money for a nice vacation in reality. This also really set him back emotionally. He was also laid off from this company in their scramble to resurrect their stock price, which couldn't have been too great for him either.
H suffers from depression generally and has been taking meds for a while now. H has never really resolved his mother issues and they have filtered through into our M. He has always been somewhat reserved and never truly vulnerable. H is now able to hear this and accept that he needs to work on his mother issues to get over this R hump.
One day, in November 2023, I was looking at my Kindle and I noticed some new books in there (we had a family account). MLC's take all different forms, but my hubby's MLC apparently is all about kinky sex; the books were about BDSM and polyamory. All fine, not really my bag though. It came as a shock but sort of opened up some lines of conversation. (The lines of conversation started with "WHAT THE F, H?!!!")
I had surgery back in October 2023 and H has cut off sex since then. H could have gone to sleep in S20's bedroom (he was at college but is home now) but he did not.
Fast forward to now, H has decided he needs to live alone to figure out his [censored]. The good news is that we're talking more, communicating better, through all of this. He has also mentioned that he might want to see other women but he didn't want to open the marriage. Then he said he wanted to talk to our sons about this and I said ABSOLUTELY NOT... Not until he has a plan... which he doesn't. H has said he doesn't want a D, he just wants some space... is that having his cake and eating it too? I don't know.
This fool is probably thinking about liquidating his 401K so he can fulfill his MLC fantasies. That's reason enough for a D! We have a guest house in our backyard but that's not enough separation for him. I told him (and he listened) that he was being EXTREMELY selfish and he actually agreed. Ironically - he's been nicer, kinder, more open, listening more... and maybe it's because I have just backed off...
The first thing I did when he started the "I want to move out" conversation and I could tell he wasn't just blowing smoke this time - i bought another copy of DR. I had given mine away to a friend whose H walked out on her. I feel like a DB pro at this point... these techniques feel like second nature after practicing them for so long, but they work.
Other books I have been reading: The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Dr. Laura Schlesinger - I don't subscribe to a lot of Dr. Laura's theories about feminism and whatnot, but she makes some good points about not being a bitch and treating H like a man and not a child.
The Shut-Out Wife: Breaking Through Your Husband's Midlife Crisis by Debra Macleod, BA, JD. - I'm about halfway through this one - pretty similar to DB/DR but really focused on MLC and all it's fun flavors.
Anyway - glad to be back after such a long time and looking forward to hearing from y'all.
Just remember something, assume there is another person in the situation. People in his situation do not like to be alone, but they also do not like losing their comfortable security blanket that is their spouse. I made the mistake that the crumbs and occasional signs of affection were genuine and a way of us maintaining that connection. In the end I became an enabler, much like others on here, I showed her there weren't any consequences for abandoning the marriage and she took that as a green light to take a no risk chance on seeing if she could find better, all while keeping me on a metaphorical leash, a backup plan in case her breaking of marriage vows didn't work out. It was by far the biggest pre dB mistake I made. Do not fall into this trap, it will prolong your suffering and give you false hope of reconciliation. Remember, you did not break the marriage, you are not to blame for his lack of maturity, respect for you, disregarding of your feelings. You don't have to put up with that behavior. Do not make him feel like you will always be there for his convenience and his convenience alone. He has to realize and fear the possibility that you will tire of his charade and not demean yourself any further if he continues.
Like a spoilt child, the more they push and break boundaries and are met with soft resistance, the more they see it as a green light or free pass to continue to break them and feel no consequences. It's one thing to deal with this with adolescents or kids but you H is old enough to know what he is doing and he has no right to disrespect you and abuse your kindness. Make him feel like you can do better than him, make him feel like you aren't afraid of losing him, make him feel like you know your worth and you don't deserve the treatment and indignation he is subjecting you to.
I don't by any means say to look for someone, but learn to be alone and thrive.
Honesty and 2x4s are always welcomed - sometimes I need that.
Perhaps my updates are doing myself justice. I've been GALing and detaching to the extent I can stomach. I'm getting better but have room to grow. Having been in the dark to MLC and DBing until Feb 2024, I lost a year of valuable insight on how to behave. I've only been at it for 3.5 months and I have room for improvement. And, it doesn't help that I struggle with buying into the strategies.
I struggle, like I've read in other threads with the concept of if I let go, will H miss me or further wander? Laura Doyle podcasts provide tempting solutions which contradict 'going dark' or feedback to 'provide little insight to H's inquiries'. It's not black and white to me which makes my thoughts scramble.
I may be naive and in the dark but I've looked and dug....still no evidence of a PA. I know it's rare but am hopeful that I'm an exception. Maybe I am...maybe not. Either way, I feel like H's constant outreaches affords me opportunities and the scrambling thoughts generate my posts most of the time.
Being bedridden isn't helping...
Ordered a couple books that I'll be reading - hope they'll help. Divorce Remedy The five love languages
You sound happy and therefore, I'm happy for you. You've defined your path forward and it will be a huge change with opportunity. Glad you're embracing it. You're brave. You have a greater support system to look forward to which I'm sure is motivating. Hope you'll continue to provide updates and feedback on our threads.
Any guesswork from your end is totally guesswork and doesn't achieve much other than causing you to not GAL and to not set healthy boundaries for yourself. I would say in most cases like this there is a AP. MLC'ers can talk a big game of independence but they don't jump without a net. Most MLC'ers are cowardly in that way. and I understand not wanting to believe this. If you look at my old thread I thought there was no AP. I think it was partially a defense mechanism on my part. Interesting things we do when were in pain. In my case that was enough anger to to help fuel GAL and trying in the beginning to move forward.
What I see.
You spend too much time watching what he does, how he acts and how much he reaches out. You really need to start developing your own life, your own hobbies, a life that your proud of without any body else's input. I had to do that.
I had to fake it for a while.....but eventually you do see the blessings from concentrating on your life and valueing yourself enough to not be happy when a crumb or two is tossed your way by your MLC'er. I understand this is difficult. We all agree on that.
Believe me, if your H comes through MLC you will know it. You will not have to decipher clues, texts, actions etc. He will know and understand the pain he has brought forth. Doesn't mean he will reach out but his actions will change.
Having gone through MLC, my guess is your H is going through one. You talk about energy and goals with MLC'ers. They may seem like goals and energy from the outside but from the inside there is a total jumble of emotions going on and normally MLC'ers don't want to sleep because that is when the demons come and they cannot deal with any of that, so they distract as much as they can. My guess is your H is MLC, a total trainwreck going on inside, so any guesswork from your end is totally guesswork and doesn't achieve much other than causing you to not GAL and to not set healthy boundaries for yourself. I would say in most cases like this there is a AP. MLC'ers can talk a big game of independence but they don't jump without a net. Most MLC'ers are cowardly in that way. and I understand not wanting to believe this. If you look at my old thread I thought there was no AP. I think it was partially a defense mechanism on my part. Interesting things we do when were in pain. In my case that was enough anger to to help fuel GAL and trying in the beginning to move forward.
What I see.
You spend too much time watching what he does, how he acts and how much he reaches out. You really need to start developing your own life, your own hobbies, a life that your proud of without any body else's input. I had to do that. I had to fake it for a while.....but eventually you do see the blessings from concentrating on your life and valueing yourself enough to not be happy when a crumb or two is tossed your way by your MLC'er. I understand this is difficult. We all agree on that.
Believe me, if your H comes through MLC you will know it. You will not have to decipher clues, texts, actions etc. He will know and understand the pain he has brought forth. Doesn't mean he will reach out but his actions will change.
Since you are asking - I'm gonna be honest with you. It really doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's depression, MLC, or just being a good ole fashion a$$, the truth is that no "answer" makes it any better. Outside of providing a guideline for what to expect in order to protect yourself, or understanding the symptoms so you can detach and depersonalize the situation; it's a cheeseless tunnel to go down. It won't bring you peace, nor will it solve the situation.
Although you are new to the board - this is not a new situation for you. Yet it looks like you are still giving him so much power. From the bleacher seats - it looks like you struggle to detach and let go.
This is normal. When we let go - there is a real chance that our loved ones... actually go. But by holding on... you are holding onto a version of the relationship that is not what you signed up for, nor is it loving or healthy. But in our minds... we convince ourselves that it is better than nothing. We protect ourselves from the pain that comes when we let go.
Only you can decide when to stop this. This does not mean stopping fighting for the marriage. Actually one of the best chances you can give yourself for your marriage to get better is to STOP the treatment that is hurting you. To take the stance and to believe you are worthy of respect, love, and a partnership that is equal....
Save yourself first... And let your H figure out if he wants to save himself.
Throughout my readings, I came across this paragraph and would love for folks to weigh in on the part about MLCer having energy and goals. As you know, I’m still trying to figure out if H is going through MLC or something else. Since BD, depression has been very much present in H. It was severe depression between September and December 2023. It has ebbed and flowed since then. Then again, H doesn’t live at home so it’s hard to know if it has subsided. I remember in February mentioning that he is less depressed and he corrected me to say that he is still very depressed. H admits and has consistently admitted that he is very depressed and that depression is impacting him. I’ve read that most MLCers deny being depressed. What do you make of this with my situation?
Since you are asking - I'm gonna be honest with you. It really doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's depression, MLC, or just being a good ole fashion a$$, the truth is that no "answer" makes it any better. Outside of providing a guideline for what to expect in order to protect yourself, or understanding the symptoms so you can detach and depersonalize the situation; it's a cheeseless tunnel to go down. It won't bring you peace, nor will it solve the situation.
Although you are new to the board - this is not a new situation for you. Yet it looks like you are still giving him so much power. From the bleacher seats - it looks like you struggle to detach and let go.
This is normal. When we let go - there is a real chance that our loved ones... actually go. But by holding on... you are holding onto a version of the relationship that is not what you signed up for, nor is it loving or healthy. But in our minds... we convince ourselves that it is better than nothing. We protect ourselves from the pain that comes when we let go.
Only you can decide when to stop this. This does not mean stopping fighting for the marriage. Actually one of the best chances you can give yourself for your marriage to get better is to STOP the treatment that is hurting you. To take the stance and to believe you are worthy of respect, love, and a partnership that is equal.
I know it feels like a lose | lose situation. If you are block him (your kids are grown so no need to really chat that much) - you will feel the pain of being alone. The pain of losing him. But the truth is that you already have lost him. The texts are a bare minimum. A shadow of a H once was. In actuality you are still alone. The texts are not about you but about him convincing himself he's doing something. No wonder you keep getting tired and p!ssed.
I hope you will consider looking at this. It is true that we as the LBS need to see how we contributed to the demise of our marriage. From my 13 years of watching this board - those who work to be as understanding as you are trying to be... the contribution seems is that one sacrficed him/herself too much. They sacrificed the core of themselves. Needs, wants, values... and in turn betrayed who they really were designed to be.
When you self-betray yourself for so long... eventually you will breakdown... and then sometimes - you will then fight back against yourself. In the form of anger, resentment, tears... it's a part of you that is crying out to be heard. What is it trying to say?
I am truly not telling you to stop fighting. I'm re-iterating one of strongest db philosophies.
Save yourself first... And let your H figure out if he wants to save himself.
Depression is real, whether you are MLCer or betrayed spouse, whether it's shown, indicated, displayed or not. The difference being how we cope with it. The mlc or walkaway don't know how to confront things and they cope with temporary dopamine hits hoping it solves their problems, they blame their spouse for what they are feeling and think there's a magic bullet to fix it, they build up bitterness and resentment to what they perceive is the cause. How it turns out for them has a lot to do with how they confront it, who they surround themselves with, how willing they are to self reflect, they are afraid of being alone, afraid of missing out on something, afraid of growing older, afraid of mortality, afraid of responsibility. The betrayed feel the depression from being deeply hurt, questioning their self worth, their own value, questioning their own actions, asking themselves what they could have done differently.
Whether you are on one side or another, sitting with the thoughts and rumination of the feelings tends to make things worse, self reflecting and making life changes is so key, it's the only way to get over the mental obstacles. Overcoming the feelings takes tremendous work, one of the biggest things is staying active, working on health both mental and physical. No objects or shiny things can fix us, we become human and at our core is our identity, we value our health and well being more and work on those things because it makes us better spiritually.
A good therapist, good, supportive family and friends makes a massive difference, we are social beings and find comfort in these things more than any material object or temporary infatuation relationship. To me this is where God and faith come in, we have to find the inner strength to uphold and fortify our values, what we find important to us, how we want to live our lives, how we want to love and be loved.
Your H must be living inside a tornado of his own thoughts, as I assume you are as well. Keep strong and be there for your child and be the rock in this stormy weather, be kind to yourself and those around you, but uphold your values. Pray for your spouse even though you may not want to, it brings comfort and manifests positive energy out into the world.
Throughout my readings, I came across this paragraph and would love for folks to weigh in on the part about MLCer having energy and goals. As you know, I’m still trying to figure out if H is going through MLC or something else. Since BD, depression has been very much present in H. It was severe depression between September and December 2023. It has ebbed and flowed since then. Then again, H doesn’t live at home so it’s hard to know if it has subsided. I remember in February mentioning that he is less depressed and he corrected me to say that he is still very depressed. H admits and has consistently admitted that he is very depressed and that depression is impacting him. I’ve read that most MLCers deny being depressed. What do you make of this with my situation?
“Lots of good info job. I can tell you that when i went through my stich i fell into a deep depression. Lost 50lbs, couldnt sleep, think or enjoy the many things that i love doing. The most painful and horrible feelings ever in my life. My energy levels were zero. I think that is the difference. An Mlcer has energy and goals. A trully depressed person does not. They maybe confused, afraid , and maybe sad. But i dont believe they are depressed. Some mlcer may be trully depressed but not all. The way i understand depression is that we are predisposed and it is self induced based on many variables. It is a disorder of thoughts and perceptions.
I think the mlcer behaves in ways that justify and reinforce their actions.”
Let’s see… at the time I read this on Friday I was planning dinner.
Since I am by myself for a bit…hmmmm. I don’t want to let food in the fridge go to waste so I’ll use leftovers and remnants, no new stuff. The little bit of white rice as a base. I’ll throw in a frypan some of the half an onion, bell pepper before it goes bad, brown mushrooms, celery tops, brown mushrooms, and some butter. I poke around in the spice cabinet and smell the various dried herbs and season when it seems to fit. Just for fun I’ll add some wasabi sea salt from the magnetic container stuck to the outside of the fridge. Protein, Protein. Four frozen meatballs go in the microwave. This counts as remnants since, after trying them, none of the kids will eat this brand. Just for fun a little grated sharp white cheddar. There. Cheddar over meatballs over sautéed veggies, over rice. Yum just for me.
The week before
Alone…I should back up a bit to last Monday though. Some months back W said she wanted to take the children to visit her parents and brother around this time when her nephew graduates high school. I said sure, of course they should see those grandparents. Then I STFU. Not another peep or offer.
Over time it got reduced from 2+ weeks to just a week including travel time. Everyone else involved had various objections and plans. Also, I’ve always been the one to plan and book all the travel. I didn’t ask but gathered from kids remarks that the grandparents helped plan/fund the trip.
W and kids departed for the airport well before dawn last Monday. After Sunday church I got the kids ready and helped them pack. Got them fed before W arrived. Then the menagerie was up to me for the week. Three dogs, two birds, two rabbits, one chicken and assorted D17’s plants.
This means a modified work schedule so I’m not away from the dogs for more than 8 hours. Monday evening I hit the mountain bike trails to work out.
Tuesday evening I went to the brewery to sit and read/write with a local brew and sandwich.
Wednesday evening I did NOTHING!
Thursday and Friday evenings I got my butt in gear to start the next stage of house purging. Both debris of the years that W has never taken care of and W’s stuff seemingly abandoned in place. Treadmill and exercise bike had’t been used in years, out to the garage they go. Furniture bits that are hers alone get stacked in the corner where exercise stuff had been. I had purchased 27 gallon totes to pack a bunch of her clothes in and stack. Pulling down some pictures from walls and shelves. As I go through as separate some obvious ones It hits me how much joy is shown through the years in those pictures. They don’t match claims of long term unhappiness.
I make the aforementioned dinner!
Plans for the weekend 1
Saturday was cleanup day as kids will be back around midnight. But hey, thinking on Mach1’s question… There is a car show today! I abandon cleanup mid-morning and head out to the car show. I eat a burger and start viewing. A 60’s VW camper van in pristine condition! Just like the one my dad had when I was little. It was stolen from him at gunpoint in Mexico. Lots of 60s and 70s big American iron. Exotics….Bently, Rolls Royce, an early Ford GT40, ’83 Lotus Esprit Turbo, NSXs, Nissan GT, and more. Others…Miata stuffed with a 5.0 (those are fun…), Monte Carlo SS (In my dorm at college a guy had one. One day he comes zipping up and parks. FIVE minutes later the law comes racing up with flashing lights…), Shelby Cobra, Bel Aire, Hot Rods galore, Willys Jeeps, and more. It was fun. After three plus hours in 95F+ heat I head home and have a nap. Finish cleanup later.
Kids return and upsets Messaging kids all day as they travel. It looks like ETA is after 1am. I know they will be tired and hungry so I set bread baking in the bread maker to finish just before they arrive. Hot fresh bread! All kids tired and ready for bed. Some upset from D17 when she realizes I had moved some minor pieces around and to the garage. She is the one who likes zero change.
D17, ”DAD! YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHEN YOU ARE CHANGING ANYTHING!”. A brief discussion intense with her and it will be OK. She is still a little mad and wants to know before I do things though. Fair.
S12 is having a hard time though. Quietly crying in his bed. Intense exposure to W, Grandparents, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin, and now home on top of the mom/dad issue was wrenching change. I sat with him at his bed for a while and talked with him. Validated sadness as legitimate. That I also I also felt sad. I think closer to 3a to sleep.
Up at 7a for dogs. Throw pre-made cinnamon rolls in the oven for kids. Spend the next hours setting up S12’s old computer for D17. Her laptop drive failed the other day and replacement drives I have were too small to restore the backup to. Kids wake slowly. No church today, they are all tired. I go to take a shower and big dog eats one of D17’s suitcase wheels in the 10 minutes I am away. Aaarrggg! That suitcase was a birthday gift to her from W.
I go to tell D17 and promise she may pick a replacement now or in the future. She is upset for a few minutes then, says with a straight face, “Dad, I can’t go get one right now, I’m not even dressed yet!” I start to explain then stop. She got me. Droll humor. Ha!
S12 appears and has tears in his eyes. W is on a video call with him. She looks like she has tears too. S12 hands me the call. W, “G, he needs extra hugs today OK? He is having trouble.” G, “Yes I know and of course I will.” Then I STFU about all the reasons he is feeling this way. Like I would be so dense as not to know. W, ”S12, I’ll come by later OK?” . She hangs up. G, ”S12, just like last night I know you feel sad. It’s ok to feel that way and let the tears out. Then we get ourselves up and go do the good things of the day. The doing of those things will help us feel better. How was the amazing <super cool giant location> you visited?” S12, ”I don’t know dad. I don’t feel like anything is cool or exciting even when it should be.” My heart bleeds.
OK, time to prep D17 and S12 with foods and myself for travel. D19 and I are going to a concert tonight. I just get started when I hear -
D17, [I]”Daaaad, Daaaad, …. Come RIGHT now…. Where are you? Help me Help me Help me”. I have a bad feeling about this. D17, ”Mom’s remaining bunny isn’t moving. Help me. “
She is trembling and barely keeping it together. It turns out like the other bunny that died, W hasn’t been keeping care of it. Poop and pee matted fur. Flea bites everywhere. I give it 50/50 of living through this. D17 and I take it out into the back yard where I gently hose it down while she trims fur off with scissors. What a mess. D19 gets a squeeze bottle to give it water. Food is mashed into a syringe. We put it inside in a clean plastic bin. There was some talk of calling W but D17 shut it down.
D17, “We can’t keep this bunny” G, “D17 you are right. I will tell W she must take the bunny to her place like she said she would.” D17, “NO, I’ll talk to her. If we send it with her the same thing will happen again and I can’t take that. WE have to find it a new home. Dad, It’s better if I tell her”
D17 finding her voice and limits with her mom.
Plans for the weekend 2 - Concert!
Now…off on a three hour drive to the NF concert with D19. I set up with D17 and S12 that we will be back about 2a. On the drive D19 and I talk a bit about home and her siblings. I tell her I’m proud of her for being able to directly tell her mom what she thinks of all this mess. Not what I think of it, what she D19 thinks. We have burgers just outside the arena. While there I was messaging with my best man (the one I reconnected with this last year). He says,
“My son's favorite artist. I've been to 3 NF concerts, myself His songs deal with not being a victim and just staying that way”
Huh. Well isn’t that on theme! I should pay attention…. The concert was great.
On the drive back home, right now, I check the camera records. W had stopped by twice earlier for 5 minutes each. Now at bed time she stopped by again for 40 minutes to walk the dogs then departed. I wonder what S12 thought of the promised stop by.
Now? 1am. One hour to go to get home and typing we travel. D17 and S12 say they are in bed. D19 is driving both ways since my vehicle is “more zoomy and I like it.”. What are my weekend plans for tomorrow? I don’t know. I had car show and concert on my plans and the rest just filled in completely. I’ll sleep on it…zzz
